Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
BigSteelThrill

Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being for potus.

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Bernie isn't making this easy on himself.

I guess when you can't explain how we're going to pay for one program, why not double down.  If you follow the Wealth Tax thread you'll see a recent study that showed over 50% of this tax will trickle down to middle class.  

And this is just the latest example of why he won't win. Voters are going to come to view voting for him as voting for a lot more taxes on themselves and, for those who are small business-owners, on their businesses.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I would invite everyone to look into the literacy program a touch deeper.  It was literally (see what I did there?) a propaganda system.  It’s good that they taught people to read, but it was done using “reading materials” that explain the awesomeness of Castro’s revolution and systemic changes for Cuba.  It’s basically the same as Bible outreach literacy programs - teaching people to read by (and for the express purpose of) indoctrination.  

hey, he was efficient, killing two birds with one stone.  that's ok, right? 

 

  • Laughing 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Bernie isn't making this easy on himself.

I guess when you can't explain how we're going to pay for one program, why not double down.  If you follow the Wealth Tax thread you'll see a recent study that showed over 50% of this tax will trickle down to middle class.  

Not defending Bernie here cause I am not a big fan but I don't think Trump was/is any better:

We didn't build a wall that Mexico paid for, he didn't repeal Obamacare and replace it with something terrific, his economic policies are not quickly balancing the budget (quite opposite, in fact), and his tax reform did benefit the rich more than middle class despite claims to the contrary   

Politicians make promises all of the time that they can't keep.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Godsbrother said:

Not defending Bernie here cause I am not a big fan but I don't think Trump was/is any better:

We didn't build a wall that Mexico paid for, he didn't repeal Obamacare and replace it with something terrific, his economic policies are not quickly balancing the budget (quite opposite, in fact), and his tax reform did benefit the rich more than middle class despite claims to the contrary   

Politicians make promises all of the time that they can't keep.  

Also growth didn't pay for the tax cuts.
 

 I mean, Bernie could just claim it would be paid for and add to the deficit like Trump did.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good piece from Ezra Klein: Bernie Sanders and the Socialist Ethic

“Bernie Sanders isn’t running on socialist economics. He’s running on a socialist ethic. What sets Sanders apart from many liberal Democrats isn’t his voting record—it is a deep, animating belief that our political and economic system is unjust.”

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anecdote that went exactly as I expected:  I'm watching coverage of Nevada caucus on Saturday and 20 year old daughter and her friend pass by.  "Isn't that the socialist?  Booo!"

Then the next morning she asks, "do you like him?"  I told her I'm not a huge fan although I agree that the US shouldn't be the only industrialized nation without public healthcare.  When I asked what she thought about that, she said, "well I don't want my taxes to go up.  I pay enough."  

People don't want to vote for Trump.  However, it will be easy for Trump to sell "socialist" and "tax increases" to keep them from voting Sanders.  Nuance is lost on most and it's all about marketing.  Sanders will lose.      

Socialism isn't popular with most Americans

Edited by Captain Cranks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Yeah, I definitely don't think that's the argument that Sanders is making.

Simple question:

Hypothetically, if Sanders was elected and was able to enact whatever programs he wanted, with minimal compromise, do you think the end state would look more like Norway or Cuba?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Captain Cranks said:

Anecdote that went exactly as I expected:  I'm watching coverage of Nevada caucus on Saturday and 20 year old daughter and her friend pass by.  "Isn't that the socialist?  Booo!"

Then the next morning she asks, "do you like him?"  I told her I'm not a huge fan although I agree that the US shouldn't be the only industrialized nation without public healthcare.  When I asked what she thought about that, she said, "well I don't want my taxes to go up.  I pay enough."  

People don't want to vote for Trump.  However, it will be easy for Trump to sell "socialist" and "tax increases" to keep them from voting Sanders.  Nuance is lost on most and it's all about marketing.  Sanders will lose.      

Socialism isn't popular with most Americans

Reading that article and seeing how the issue is framed both in terms of the polling and the article itself, I find myself really disappointed in NPR. 

It seems clear to me that Sanders use of the word socialism isn’t helping him, but the reality here is that we aren’t choosing between actual socialism and capitalism. If I thought we were, I wouldn’t be remotely positive about Sanders.

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Captain Cranks said:

Anecdote that went exactly as I expected:  I'm watching coverage of Nevada caucus on Saturday and 20 year old daughter and her friend pass by.  "Isn't that the socialist?  Booo!"

Then the next morning she asks, "do you like him?"  I told her I'm not a huge fan although I agree that the US shouldn't be the only industrialized nation without public healthcare.  When I asked what she thought about that, she said, "well I don't want my taxes to go up.  I pay enough."  

People don't want to vote for Trump.  However, it will be easy for Trump to sell "socialist" and "tax increases" to keep them from voting Sanders.  Nuance is lost on most and it's all about marketing.  Sanders will lose.      

Socialism isn't popular with most Americans

A rational argument doesn't matter because many people don't care.  But I wonder how much taxes this 20 year is actually paying and if they would go up under anyone.

Edited by toshiba

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Simple question:

Hypothetically, if Sanders was elected and was able to enact whatever programs he wanted, with minimal compromise, do you think the end state would look more like Norway or Cuba?

If Sanders is such a fan of Norway, why has spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes?  Why is it so challenging to say plainly that those governments are bad without talking about their wonderful, cutting-edge literacy programs?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

If Sanders is such a fan of Norway, why has spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes?  Why is it so challenging to say plainly that those governments are bad without talking about their wonderful, cutting-edge literacy programs?

This didn't answer his question.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If Sanders is such a fan of Norway, why has spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes?  Why is it so challenging to say plainly that those governments are bad without talking about their wonderful, cutting-edge literacy programs?

That’s a good question.

it also isn’t an answer.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if people are truly concerned about a slippery slope to true socialism and/or communism if Bernie is elected then it’s completely fair to point out the same slippery slip to authoritarian or dictator rule if we re-elect Trump.  I get Bernie is not some folks favorite but honestly I’m not convinced of either slippery slope but if you made me pick which one I would be more concerned about realistically happening it would be the latter.  Again, I find both far fetched.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

I think if people are truly concerned about a slippery slope to true socialism and/or communism if Bernie is elected then it’s completely fair to point out the same slippery slip to authoritarian or dictator rule if we re-elect Trump.  I get Bernie is not some folks favorite but honestly I’m not convinced of either slippery slope but if you made me pick which one I would be more concerned about realistically happening it would be the latter.  Again, I find both far fetched.

Dude, we are already sliding down the Right Wing authoritarian slope, and picking up speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, RedmondLonghorn said:

That’s a good question.

it also isn’t an answer.

To be honest it’s kind of a stupid question. I can be on board with a few/some/all of the programs Bernie is proposing (Norway-style) but be irritated with his possible blind spot for left wing dictators. I can also REALLY be concerned with how that’s going to weigh him down in the general when the end goal is getting Trump out and all hr needs to do is answer in a non-dumb way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If Sanders is such a fan of Norway, why has spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes?  Why is it so challenging to say plainly that those governments are bad without talking about their wonderful, cutting-edge literacy programs?

I attribute it to miscalculations more than he secretly wants true socialism.  Call me naive if you want - hell, the man is honest to a fault and this is a perfect example IMO.

You know what you are getting with Bernie and he ultimately has the interests of everyone in mind - with Trump you have no idea what you are getting as he lies constantly and seems to only care about himself and what it does for him.  I know which side I’m on - the one that actually gives a damn about people.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a friend of mine just texted me:
 

American media:
What isn’t radical: ditching 250 years of rule or law, descent into Kakistocracy.

What is radical: Germany. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Hugh Jass said:

To be honest it’s kind of a stupid question. I can be on board with a few/some/all of the programs Bernie is proposing (Norway-style) but be irritated with his possible blind spot for left wing dictators. I can also REALLY be concerned with how that’s going to weigh him down in the general when the end goal is getting Trump out and all hr needs to do is answer in a non-dumb way.

Ok!

(I have the same concerns that every time he says “socialism” it hurts him.)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

I attribute it to miscalculations more than he secretly wants true socialism.  Call me naive if you want - hell, the man is honest to a fault and this is a perfect example IMO.

You know what you are getting with Bernie and he ultimately has the interests of everyone in mind - with Trump you have no idea what you are getting as he lies constantly and seems to only care about himself and what it does for him.  I know which side I’m on - the one that actually gives a damn about people.

We know exactly what we are getting with Trump. Pretending we don’t is part of the problem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

The question is just an attempt to deflect.

Deflect from what? 
 

it is a simple, straight forward question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Ok!

(I have the same concerns that every time he says “socialism” it hurts him.)

Lol and I’m not meaning to be harsh. Maybe I’ve seen too many tweets today on Bernie from his True Believers. I saw what True Believer-ism looked like the past 4 years and am concerned we’ll see the same thing on a different side of the coin the next 4 where one cannot criticize dear leader.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

The question is just an attempt to deflect.

It depends what your point is.

If your argument is "the way Sanders talks about this stuff will hurt his election prospects," I agree tha question isn't particularly relevant.

But your posts seem to be suggesting that Sanders actually wants to be some sort of left wing dictator.  If that's what you're suggesting, I think it's worth following up.  Because I've seen Bernie in dozens of speeches and debates talk about Denmark and the Nordic model, etc.  I've never once heard him affirmatively bring up Cuba or some Latin American country as something we should be emulating here.  

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Dude, we are already sliding down the Right Wing authoritarian slope, and picking up speed.

I hear what you are saying but I still think we have checks in place that puts even Trump in his place.  I’m very concerned what he may try to do during a 2nd term but I’m not sure I’m to the point of this being an existential threat like some are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

I hear what you are saying but I still think we have checks in place that puts even Trump in his place.  I’m very concerned what he may try to do during a 2nd term but I’m not sure I’m to the point of this being an existential threat like some are.

Such as?

Seems like with the DOJ and Senate in your pocket, you can pretty much get away with whatever you want.

But I am interested in what checks we have left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

We know exactly what we are getting with Trump. Pretending we don’t is part of the problem. 

I’m not pretending anything - he’s horrible but I don’t know where he’s thinking he will go with this.  My sense is he just wants to be rich and powerful, beyond that I think anybody is guessing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I hear what you are saying but I still think we have checks in place that puts even Trump in his place.  I’m very concerned what he may try to do during a 2nd term but I’m not sure I’m to the point of this being an existential threat like some are.

You do? What are they?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Skoo said:

Such as?

Seems like with the DOJ and Senate in your pocket, you can pretty much get away with whatever you want.

But I am interested in what checks we have left.

Courts have been consistently rejecting some of the things he’s tried to do.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may need to be out of this discussion - when I appear to be the “voice of reason” or dissension when it comes to Trump I think it’s best I bow out.  I think he’s the worst POTUS ever and a horrible human being - I have no interest spending any more time “defending” him.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

Courts have been consistently rejecting some of the things he’s tried to do.  

Lower courts, yes. Did you not see what the SCOTUS just did with the injunctions against his anti-immigration policies? I mean the policies aimed at severely curtailing LEGAL immigration.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

I may need to be out of this discussion - when I appear to be the “voice of reason” or dissension when it comes to Trump I think it’s best I bow out.  I think he’s the worst POTUS ever and a horrible human being - I have no interest spending any more time “defending” him.

I mean this with kindness, but what you call being the “voice of reason” I would characterize as Pollyanna-ish self-deception.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

It depends what your point is.

If your argument is "the way Sanders talks about this stuff will hurt his election prospects," I agree tha question isn't particularly relevant.

But your posts seem to be suggesting that Sanders actually wants to be some sort of left wing dictator.  If that's what you're suggesting, I think it's worth following up.  Because I've seen Bernie in dozens of speeches and debates talk about Denmark and the Nordic model, etc.  I've never once heard him affirmatively bring up Cuba or some Latin American country as something we should be emulating here.  

Exactly this.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Max Power said:

Bernie isn't making this easy on himself.

I guess when you can't explain how we're going to pay for one program, why not double down.  If you follow the Wealth Tax thread you'll see a recent study that showed over 50% of this tax will trickle down to middle class.  

Fortunately the myth that conservatives care about paying for legislation before passing it has been completely shattered with this administration/congress, so Bernie should waste zero energy worrying about critics who complain about deficit spending.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still supporting Liz Warren and voted for her with my mail in ballot this weekend, but if Bernie continues his run and wins this thing, I'm looking forward to jumping on board and fully supporting his candidacy.

CHOO-CHOO!

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 4
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

I would invite everyone to look into the literacy program a touch deeper.  It was literally (see what I did there?) a propaganda system.  It’s good that they taught people to read, but it was done using “reading materials” that explain the awesomeness of Castro’s revolution and systemic changes for Cuba.  It’s basically the same as Bible outreach literacy programs - teaching people to read by (and for the express purpose of) indoctrination.  

I tried to search online to find out more (I don't remember learning about the program before today) but I didn't come up with much negative.  In fact, most of what I read seems to support Bernie's view that the program was successful without much criticism.  

How bad was the propaganda in  Venceremos?  I'd like to learn about that.

(For the record, I'm not trying to argue, I'm honestly curious.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

I tried to search online to find out more (I don't remember learning about the program before today) but I didn't come up with much negative.  In fact, most of what I read seems to support Bernie's view that the program was successful without much criticism.  

How bad was the propaganda in  Venceremos?  I'd like to learn about that.

(For the record, I'm not trying to argue, I'm honestly curious.)

http://lasa.international.pitt.edu/LASA98/Supko.pdf

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

It depends what your point is.

If your argument is "the way Sanders talks about this stuff will hurt his election prospects," I agree tha question isn't particularly relevant.

But your posts seem to be suggesting that Sanders actually wants to be some sort of left wing dictator.  If that's what you're suggesting, I think it's worth following up.  Because I've seen Bernie in dozens of speeches and debates talk about Denmark and the Nordic model, etc.  I've never once heard him affirmatively bring up Cuba or some Latin American country as something we should be emulating here.  

I don't mean to be a smartass, but isn't there some idea that dictators don't start out wanting to be dictators? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sweet J said:

I don't mean to be a smartass, but isn't there some idea that dictators don't start out wanting to be dictators? 

If @IvanKaramazov wants to make the argument that Sanders doesn't want to be a dictator now, but he will if he becomes President, he can try.  That's not the way I read his posts though.  When IK says Bernie's spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes, or when he won't even acknowledge that Bernie wants to have the Nordic model in the United States rather than the Cuban model, that seems to me to be argument made in bad faith.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Juxtatarot said:

That paper largely conveys a positive view of the program.  

I'm trying not to give you a biased source.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If @IvanKaramazov wants to make the argument that Sanders doesn't want to be a dictator now, but he will if he becomes President, he can try.  That's not the way I read his posts though.  When IK says Bernie's spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes, or when he won't even acknowledge that Bernie wants to have the Nordic model in the United States rather than the Cuban model, that seems to me to be argument made in bad faith.

Why would he be required to take Bernie at his current word and not his last word, or the word prior, or his previous actions?  Just because you trust him doesn’t mean everybody should.

These are all well seasoned politicians with big money and staff behind them.  They aren’t choir boys.  They know how to play the political game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, jonessed said:

Why would he be required to take Bernie at his current word and not his last word, or the word prior, or his previous actions?  Just because you trust him doesn’t mean everybody should.

These are all well seasoned politicians with big money and staff behind them.  They aren’t choir boys.  They know how to play the political game.

If he really believes Sanders wants to emulate Cuba he could have answered Redmond's question in that way.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If he really believes Sanders wants to emulate Cuba he could have answered Redmond's question in that way.  

:shrug:

I doubt he wants to emulate Cuba in its entirety, but based on his history, I think he would like to emulate more aspects of Cuba than he’s letting on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, jonessed said:

:shrug:

I doubt he wants to emulate Cuba in its entirety, but based on his history, I think he would like to emulate more aspects of Cuba than he’s letting on.

What aspects of the Cuban government do you think he would like to emulate other than those shared by Nordic countries?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

What aspects of the Cuban government do you think he would like to emulate other than those shared by Nordic countries?

A more centralized control over education (primary, secondary, and higher).

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, jonessed said:

A more centralized control over education (primary, secondary, and higher).

control over the curriculum or just make it more affordable?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, jonessed said:

A more centralized control over education (primary, secondary, and higher).

Where do you see the problem in that?

Personally I think it makes sense to have federal standards when it comes to education.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, jonessed said:

A more centralized control over education (primary, secondary, and higher).

I honestly have no idea how centralized the control over in education is in Nordic countries, so I can't really respond.  Thanks for answering though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Skoo said:

Where do you see the problem in that?

Personally I think it makes sense to have federal standards when it comes to education.

Some standards, sure.  Ironically, the Nordic model is a great example of the power of local control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, urbanhack said:

control over the curriculum or just make it more affordable?

 

Both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.