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Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (5 Viewers)

pantagrapher said:
But you've also said you're not one of the Bernie voters you're talking about.
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I'm leaning towards voting for HRC if she ends up the nominee, particularly if Cruz ends up being the R - he's way more antagonistic to liberals than Trump. If nothing else, she is solid on women's rights. We'll have to fight the over influence of big money on government another day in that case. But you and the other HRC supporters in here are sure making me question that stance. You're not going to shame people into voting against their conscience. All you're doing is pushing them away by attempting to do so.

 
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pantagrapher said:
Wishing for bad things so that your personal goals for political transformation can happen is misguided, childish, and selfish. 
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I know Hillary supporters have been the focus of lots of attacks so I understand the hostility but statements like this are pretty condescending and should be beneath the frontrunners.

 
pantagrapher said:
To them I'd say: it's time to set aside the comfort and feelings and put on big boy pants. This is politics. It doesn't always make you feel nice.
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That why I will be thinking of your ignorance as I cast my vote for Trump and pray like hell he wins by one vote.

 
grateful zed said:
why does everyone hate clinton so much?
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I don't hate her. I'm really, really concerned about her connections to big money. I don't find her authentic. She doesn't seem like the friendliest person in the world, a stark contrast to her husband. I get the sense that she really believes she's got the best interest of the U.S. at heart, but she's not very good at convincing others of that. Most importantly, her actions and voting record make her a "more of the same" candidate, where I think we need some actual change right now. She suffers in comparison to Sanders for me in a lot of areas. I mean, one of them had the clear sight and courage to vote against the Iraq war, when some of us could see at the time the Iraq war was a really bad idea, one of them didn't. That's a big deal to me.

 
timschochet said:
if the Democrats ever allow the Sanders/Warren faction to dominate the party, they will lose national elections. Even now they are losing state and local elections because they are perceived to be more liberal than they are (this is especially true of Obama).

America is not a liberal country and its not going to become one. Whoever presents itself as more to the center is going to win most of the time. The Democrats are a coalition party of minorities plus unions- that's basically how they win elections. White leftists and millennialis who don't vote are an afterthought.
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You've just watched the future of this country almost unanimously vote for the most liberal candidate (both fiscally and socially) and the conclusion you drew is essentially the inverse of what that suggests.

Sanders just changed the game, opening the door for future candidates with similar ideology. 

 
pantagrapher said:
Wishing for bad things so that your personal goals for political transformation can happen is misguided, childish, and selfish. 
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Preferring short-term loss for long-term gain is neither misguided, childish, nor selfish.  If anything, it's the exact opposite of childish and selfish.

 
Yeah, Tim, this has been discussed at length and directly with you. Your inability or unwillingness to see the change happening in front of you is not one of your more admirable traits. The nation is on a steady, albeit not smooth, path leftward. The new voters won't care even a little about old-timey conservative economic values when the country keeps falling in the global rankings because of them.

 
pantagrapher said:
timschochet said:
if the Democrats ever allow the Sanders/Warren faction to dominate the party, they will lose national elections. Even now they are losing state and local elections because they are perceived to be more liberal than they are (this is especially true of Obama). 

America is not a liberal country and its not going to become one. Whoever presents itself as more to the center is going to win most of the time. The Democrats are a coalition party of minorities plus unions- that's basically how they win elections. White leftists and millennialis who don't vote are an afterthought. 
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I don't subscribe to this at all. If anything, the country is much more liberal than its politicians.
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Remember when gay marriage was a pipe dream.....reality is we are dragging our politicians along on the ride.  I wish, for once, we could have someone out front leading us but that takes balls.

 
A few random thoughts..

A. I totally understand a Sanders supporter voting 3rd party or only voting down ballot. I can't even fathom a Sanders supporter voting for Donald ####### Trump. 

B. No idea why I'm seeing WH leaks about Obama urging donors to unite around Clinton. How is that politically helpful right now?

C. I think Sanders should stay in until Clinton gets the pledged majority in Late May. But the tough thing about it is that his candidacy has so much built-in anti-Clinton, anti-Obama stuff at its core, it's going to continue to bleed through even with a heightened focus on Trump and Rs.

D. I wish/hope that Bernie can channel some of this enthusiasm and money into Russ Feingolds in WI or John Fettermans in PA. One of his biggest flaws in my mind is that there is no party building or even ideology building in down ticket races. It's needed. 

 
IvanKaramazov said:
It's actually kind of the opposite of that.  When given a clear choice between a progressive and a DLC "third way" centrist, the party rejected the progressive and chose the centrist. That doesn't open the door to a progressive in 2024.  On the contrary, it sends a clear message that the party is more interested in staking out a position near the center than nominating somebody who better appeals to progressives.  

I say that as somebody who's happy about that development.  If the Republican party is going to go off the deep end and nominate insane people, I'd prefer to see the Democrats nominate a centrist rather than a real liberal.  (I'd strongly prefer that that centrist be somebody other than Hillary Clinton, but that's a different issue).
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Liberal vs Centrist. I'd say i'm more centrist than liberal but i support Bernie Sanders. It's not the politics that's most important to me because our system of government guarantees no one is going to get everything they ask for (or really hardly any of it nowadays). It's the character if the candidate that should count more to people and there is a stark difference in this election that i'm extremely disappointed that more people couldn't clearly see.

 
SameSongNDance said:
You've just watched the future of this country almost unanimously vote for the most liberal candidate (both fiscally and socially) and the conclusion you drew is essentially the inverse of what that suggests.

Sanders just changed the game, opening the door for future candidates with similar ideology. 
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Socially, the country is no doubt headed left.

Fiscally, it's still country that wants reasonable taxes. Bernie's biggest mistake was calling himself any type of socialist and saying he's not against 90% tax rates. There are ways to improve the country with things like single payer without excessive taxation. We just need an articulate, centrist person, preferably white and male, to make the case for it.

 
cstu said:
Socially, the country is no doubt headed left.

Fiscally, it's still country that wants reasonable taxes. Bernie's biggest mistake was calling himself any type of socialist and saying he's not against 90% tax rates. There are ways to improve the country with things like single payer without excessive taxation. We just need an articulate, centrist person, preferably white and male, to make the case for it.
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You either increase taxes or cut from somewhere else.  Where are we cutting from to get the $ ?  Speaking of his medicare plan specifically, it was a net increase of money in the pockets of most people when you look at the tax increase minus the savings on premiums, deductibles etc.  If people can't take 5 minutes and think about that, it's not about being articulate.  You can't fix stupid.  Yes....these comments are specific to this specific topic.

 
cstu said:
Socially, the country is no doubt headed left.

Fiscally, it's still country that wants reasonable taxes. Bernie's biggest mistake was calling himself any type of socialist and saying he's not against 90% tax rates. There are ways to improve the country with things like single payer without excessive taxation. We just need an articulate, centrist person, preferably white and male, to make the case for it.
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90% tax rates. Really.

 
cstu said:
Socially, the country is no doubt headed left.

Fiscally, it's still country that wants reasonable taxes. Bernie's biggest mistake was calling himself any type of socialist and saying he's not against 90% tax rates. There are ways to improve the country with things like single payer without excessive taxation. We just need an articulate, centrist person, preferably white and male, to make the case for it.
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We're unrealistic (Bernie included).  We want all of the great social programs of countries like Sweden, but not the much higher taxes that come along with it (higher for all, not just the rich).

 
 
Here is what Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton are doing today:

  • Hillary Clinton is attending a fundraiser in Tennessee, a state that already voted, to collect checks from high-dollar donors who are bundling as much as $27,000.
     
  • Bernie Sanders is holding a town hall with voters in Arizona to talk about the issues that matter.
What about tomorrow?

  • Hillary Clinton is attending a fundraiser in Virginia, another state that already voted, to collect more checks from high-dollar donors who are also bundling as much as $27,000.
     
  • Bernie Sanders is holding three rallies with voters, one in each of the states that vote or caucus on Tuesday – Idaho, Utah, and Arizona.
This is only possible because YOU are Bernie's donors. No millionaires or billionaires to bundle money from their rich friends. Just you.
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I'll be sending in my weekly contribution until Philadelphia.

 
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roadkill1292 said:
A Nordic person explains why it's not homogeneity (still waiting, people) but self-interest that makes their system so attractive to Scandanavians.
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:goodposting:

The choices Nordic countries have made have little to do with altruism or kinship. Rather, Nordic people have made their decisions out of self-interest. Nordic nations offer their citizens—all of their citizens, but especially the middle class—high-quality services that save people a lot of money, time, and trouble. This is what Americans fail to understand: My taxes in Finland were used to pay for top-notch services for me.
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The Commish said:
You either increase taxes or cut from somewhere else.  Where are we cutting from to get the $ ?  Speaking of his medicare plan specifically, it was a net increase of money in the pockets of most people when you look at the tax increase minus the savings on premiums, deductibles etc.  If people can't take 5 minutes and think about that, it's not about being articulate.  You can't fix stupid.  Yes....these comments are specific to this specific topic.
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How come the candidates on the right don't have to explain where they are getting the money to cut taxes and raise military spending?

 
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Clayton Gray said:
Name the progressive policies you expect from Trump.

Look - I totally get that Clinton is not what we want on important issues like finance reform, corporate tax loopholes, civil rights issues, etc. Trump is also not what we want on those issues, but he has the added wart of authoritarianism and will be a complete foreign relations nightmare.
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Improving the climate for middle class and working class jobs in the US. 

Not letting Wall Street dictate policy.

That's the only two I can come up with.  For me personally, more decent working class jobs is priority one.  I'd be willing to forgo one unisex bathroom for every new job.  I'd be willing to give up one abortion or on the flip side take one fetus for every new job.

My other big issue is staying out of war.  IMO that's a push between Clinton and Trump.

 
cstu said:
Socially, the country is no doubt headed left.

Fiscally, it's still country that wants reasonable taxes. Bernie's biggest mistake was calling himself any type of socialist and saying he's not against 90% tax rates. There are ways to improve the country with things like single payer without excessive taxation. We just need an articulate, centrist person, preferably white and male, to make the case for it.
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We are one of the lowest taxed first world countries. And we spend more than most without getting a commensurate return on investment. Raising taxes is going to happen. It has to happen. Changing our system has to happen. 

 
cstu said:
If Bernie was half the campaigner as black Obama was he'd be President instead of Hillary next year. Democrats had no problem nominating Obama over Hillary, but the reality is that Bernie is a flawed candidate.
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I would like to thank the NYT for reminding me why I hate the establishment. They finally wrote a positive article about Bernie. They talked about his legislative achievements and gave him.credit for working across the aisle. I was stunned but I thought well.maybe I had them.a bit wrong. No I didn't. Within hours the article went from.positive to a hit piece. They actually edited it to remove quotes from.Republicans lauding Bernie. They minimized every piece of legislation. They made sure to be bootlicking establishment lackeys. Screw them.

I hope Bernie stays in to the bitter end and I will continue to contribute in hopes of helping him do so. Hillary will have to wait a while before her inevitable run to the right.

 
NCCommish said:
I would like to thank the NYT for reminding me why I hate the establishment. They finally wrote a positive article about Bernie. They talked about his legislative achievements and gave him.credit for working across the aisle. I was stunned but I thought well.maybe I had them.a bit wrong. No I didn't. Within hours the article went from.positive to a hit piece. They actually edited it to remove quotes from.Republicans lauding Bernie. They minimized every piece of legislation. They made sure to be bootlicking establishment lackeys. Screw them.

I hope Bernie stays in to the bitter end and I will continue to contribute in hopes of helping him do so. Hillary will have to wait a while before her inevitable run to the right.
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Suppose Hillary doesn't run to the right but retains her current positions through November? Would you reconsider? 

 
NCCommish said:
I would like to thank the NYT for reminding me why I hate the establishment. They finally wrote a positive article about Bernie. They talked about his legislative achievements and gave him.credit for working across the aisle. I was stunned but I thought well.maybe I had them.a bit wrong. No I didn't. Within hours the article went from.positive to a hit piece. They actually edited it to remove quotes from.Republicans lauding Bernie. They minimized every piece of legislation. They made sure to be bootlicking establishment lackeys. Screw them.

I hope Bernie stays in to the bitter end and I will continue to contribute in hopes of helping him do so. Hillary will have to wait a while before her inevitable run to the right.
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You're getting played if you believe this.

 
NCCommish said:
I would like to thank the NYT for reminding me why I hate the establishment. They finally wrote a positive article about Bernie. They talked about his legislative achievements and gave him.credit for working across the aisle. I was stunned but I thought well.maybe I had them.a bit wrong. No I didn't. Within hours the article went from.positive to a hit piece. They actually edited it to remove quotes from.Republicans lauding Bernie. They minimized every piece of legislation. They made sure to be bootlicking establishment lackeys. Screw them.

I hope Bernie stays in to the bitter end and I will continue to contribute in hopes of helping him do so. Hillary will have to wait a while before her inevitable run to the right.
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NYT has been a bootlicking Establishment lackey *at least* since GWB and Iraq...

 
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