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Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (6 Viewers)

parasaurolophus said:
Does it do anything to fix how we got there in the first place? 
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No it doesn't, at least what's presented to us and that's pretty shocking.  Most of his proposals address where we went wrong as well.  It's probably the least forward thinking of his policies best I can tell.  Now if we put it together with his extension of public education to college, then the answer could be yes if the people utilize the programs correctly.  But there is nothing in this policy that I see which would prevent people from making poor decisions with respect to their education.

 
Sweet J said:
It's not means-tested.  Just automatically wipes out ALL debt.  There are a lot of people that come from families who have money who have big student loans. 

A family who makes $100k a year could send their kid to state school and incur minimal debt, or encourage their kid to go to the "best" school and get saddled with $200k a year.  I don't envision people making $100k a year as "less wealthy people." 

I wouldn't mind spending this money on families who are so downtrodden they don't even make it to college.  Or what about dirt poor families who scrimp to send kids to community college who are so beaten down it doesn't even occur to them to take out debt. 

Edit:  I could get behind some sort of plan for addressing student loan debt.  I don't mean to be a huge naysayer. 
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I have not looked closely into the details of the Sanders debt forgiveness, but I was initially a Warren supporter earlier in the primary because she tended to use more "hard" numbers when showing how she would reach calculations for things like childcare and debt forgiveness and his are more general ideas without the math calculations. I have a feeling that it would not literally be no debt for anyone, but there would be numerous thresholds, partial payments etc once a plan is drawn up in reality. Then again I might be wrong, I am just theorizing. 

Also, things have a cost no matter who is in office. I would rather my tax money go towards improving the life of a young person moving out into the world with less debt then toward the 12th yacht for a billionaire like it is now.

 
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Sweet J said:
It's not means-tested.  Just automatically wipes out ALL debt.  There are a lot of people that come from families who have money who have big student loans. 

A family who makes $100k a year could send their kid to state school and incur minimal debt, or encourage their kid to go to the "best" school and get saddled with $200k a year.  I don't envision people making $100k a year as "less wealthy people." 

I wouldn't mind spending this money on families who are so downtrodden they don't even make it to college.  Or what about dirt poor families who scrimp to send kids to community college who are so beaten down it doesn't even occur to them to take out debt. 

Edit:  I could get behind some sort of plan for addressing student loan debt.  I don't mean to be a huge naysayer. 
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If elected Bernie is not getting this passed as he is saying now.   If he does get something passed it will be a very watered-down version.

 
Godsbrother said:
If elected Bernie is not getting this passed as he is saying now.   If he does get something passed it will be a very watered-down version.
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So this is the other aspect of why the fear mongering is so absurd.  I'll say now that 95% of what he wants to do is dead on arrival.  It's not going to happen.  So why elect him?  Because we have two sides of the Presidency that need repair now.  The respect for rule of law now has to be restored as do a myriad of other moral aspects.  And then there's always the political aspects.  But, IMO, you don't get to the politics part until you restore the moral parts.

 
The Commish said:
So this is the other aspect of why the fear mongering is so absurd.  I'll say now that 95% of what he wants to do is dead on arrival.  It's not going to happen.  So why elect him?  Because we have two sides of the Presidency that need repair now.  The respect for rule of law now has to be restored as do a myriad of other moral aspects.  And then there's always the political aspects.  But, IMO, you don't get to the politics part until you restore the moral parts.
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While I agree with this I think his message will not resonate with independents and moderates which will likely need to another 4 years of Trump.   

The primary for PA is April 28th so it may be a moot point but if I am faced with a choice of Bernie, Bloomberg or Biden I can tell you that Bernie is my last choice.

 
Godsbrother said:
While I agree with this I think his message will not resonate with independents and moderates which will likely need to another 4 years of Trump.   

The primary for PA is April 28th so it may be a moot point but if I am faced with a choice of Bernie, Bloomberg or Biden I can tell you that Bernie is my last choice.
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I don't know if it will or not.  I personally think this election is different.  The Dems haven't had an energized segment of their base like Bernie's supporters in my lifetime.  Not only are they energized, they are turning out the vote in others.  Sadly enough, in our current set up, the more energized the bases and cores are, the less they need the independents and moderates.  I understand your sentiment as it pertains to the primary.  I don't understand it at all as it pertains to the general.  The choice is going to be between Trump and the Dem candidate.  As long as that Dem candidate isn't Bloomberg, I don't see the problem.  But I also admit I am coming at this from a "country first, respect the rule of law, respect all the groups in this country, we'll talk policies later" perspective.  

 
Smack Tripper said:
The Betting odds chart?  
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Yes.  You posted that, and asked if people were okay with Bernie getting screwed.  My interpretation of that chart is not that it will lead to Bernie losing the nomination because of delegates switching to Biden at a contested convention despite Bernie having more delegates walking in.  It's that Biden will win the nomination because more delegates will be awarded to him over the next couple months.

 
Henry Ford said:
Yes.  You posted that, and asked if people were okay with Bernie getting screwed.  My interpretation of that chart is not that it will lead to Bernie losing the nomination because of delegates switching to Biden at a contested convention despite Bernie having more delegates walking in.  It's that Biden will win the nomination because more delegates will be awarded to him over the next couple months.
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Thats fair, we'll see how that plays out.  

My theory would be the number changed due to forces aligning against him but i may be over interpreting.  

So allowing for that error on my part, to go back to my original question, would you consider him screwed if he held the lead and it went contested?  Would you support that?

 
Smack Tripper said:
Thats fair, we'll see how that plays out.  

My theory would be the number changed due to forces aligning against him but i may be over interpreting.  

So allowing for that error on my part, to go back to my original question, would you consider him screwed if he held the lead and it went contested?  Would you support that?
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I think it depends on the lead and the distance to a majority.  But potentially.  I also think it's his own fault, so I wouldn't feel terribly for him for getting screwed and I'd think less of him for complaining about it after his own push to do the same thing to Clinton.

 
Henry Ford said:
I think it depends on the lead and the distance to a majority.  But potentially.  I also think it's his own fault, so I wouldn't feel terribly for him for getting screwed and I'd think less of him for complaining about it after his own push to do the same thing to Clinton.
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How did he push to do the same to Clinton?

 
Henry Ford said:
I think it depends on the lead and the distance to a majority.  But potentially.  I also think it's his own fault, so I wouldn't feel terribly for him for getting screwed and I'd think less of him for complaining about it after his own push to do the same thing to Clinton.
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Care to explain why?

 
Navin Johnson said:
He argued that the super delegates of each state should be loyal to the will of the voters of that state.  He explicitly said he wanted no part of the super delegates in states that Clinton won.
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She was leading in delegates, even without superdelegates.  He intended to fight to be the nominee in a contested convention.

 
Navin Johnson said:
He argued that the super delegates of each state should be loyal to the will of the voters of that state.  He explicitly said he wanted no part of the super delegates in states that Clinton won.
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I dont believe that is true. I think he said states she won by a large margin, not just states she won. He may have eventually backed down, but at some point he was actively campaigning superdelegates to flip, regardless if Hillary had the lead. There is no other way to interpret the bold.

Here was his campaign manager.

Now we can argue about the merits of having superdelegates," Weaver continued, "but we do have them. And if their role is just to rubber-stamp the pledged-delegate count then they really aren't needed. They're supposed to exercise independent judgment about who they think can lead the party forward to victory."

Weaver added that superdelegates don't vote until they actually go to the convention, and he considers their allegiances as movable as poll numbers.

If by the convention Sanders has "substantial momentum" and has substantially "closed the gap" in pledged delegates, Weaver said, "I think there's a strong argument to be made to superdelegates that they should take another look."
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This should surprise nobody from the linked article above...

So far, no Clinton-backing superdelegates have flipped to Sanders, despite an aggressive lobbying campaign from his supporters that in some cases included harassing phones calls and online threats.
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Sweet J said:
I just posted about this in the Biden thread, but I supposed it is more appropriate here:  I finally read a little more about Bernie's student loan forgiveness plan.  It's a stupid plan that made me mad just reading about it.  It's so stupid it dropped him to dead last out of all the Dem contenders (for me, at least).  How could anyone support this?  Good god. 
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 I think I'm going to vote for Biden over Bernie and this student loan idea is the deciding reason why.  

 
Navin Johnson said:
https://youtu.be/ekuqXwmx_KY
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The lead in commentary says...

While Sanders concedes that the process is "not rigged," he disapproves of Clinton's superdelegate wins months before the election. He adds, however, that he won't attempt to woo those superdelegates from states where his rival netted landslide victories.
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Bernie's own words in that video.

"Superdelgates in states where a candidate wins a landslide victory should listen to the people in those states"
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If Biden ends up with more delegates before the convention, will Bernie stick to his position and commit to Biden being the nominee? 

 
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