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BigSteelThrill

Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being.

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10 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

Nathaniel Ratliffe and that Nightsweats - I’m even more on board if these guys are the house band.

Bon Iver is doing several shows throughout Wisconsin for Bernie.  Plays well to his base, probably not much value in the end but good to see. 

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I voted early because I thought I would be out of town on business travel. COVID shut that down. Going to call the clerk's office and see if there's any way I can volunteer today

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I just posted about this in the Biden thread, but I supposed it is more appropriate here:  I finally read a little more about Bernie's student loan forgiveness plan.  It's a stupid plan that made me mad just reading about it.  It's so stupid it dropped him to dead last out of all the Dem contenders (for me, at least).  How could anyone support this?  Good god. 

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17 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

I just posted about this in the Biden thread, but I supposed it is more appropriate here:  I finally read a little more about Bernie's student loan forgiveness plan.  It's a stupid plan that made me mad just reading about it.  It's so stupid it dropped him to dead last out of all the Dem contenders (for me, at least).  How could anyone support this?  Good god. 

You made some interesting points there

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18 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

I just posted about this in the Biden thread, but I supposed it is more appropriate here:  I finally read a little more about Bernie's student loan forgiveness plan.  It's a stupid plan that made me mad just reading about it.  It's so stupid it dropped him to dead last out of all the Dem contenders (for me, at least).  How could anyone support this?  Good god. 

I'm not sure I support it entirely, but I'm generally in favor of the government taking more money from wealthy people and giving it to less wealthy people.  Seems like this plan among others would be a move in that direction.  I recognize it's not perfect but few policies are.  

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4 minutes ago, Navin Johnson said:

You made some interesting points there

touche

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I'm not sure I support it entirely, but I'm generally in favor of the government taking more money from wealthy people and giving it to less wealthy people.  Seems like this plan among others would be a move in that direction.  I recognize it's not perfect but few policies are.  

It's not means-tested.  Just automatically wipes out ALL debt.  There are a lot of people that come from families who have money who have big student loans. 

A family who makes $100k a year could send their kid to state school and incur minimal debt, or encourage their kid to go to the "best" school and get saddled with $200k a year.  I don't envision people making $100k a year as "less wealthy people." 

I wouldn't mind spending this money on families who are so downtrodden they don't even make it to college.  Or what about dirt poor families who scrimp to send kids to community college who are so beaten down it doesn't even occur to them to take out debt. 

Edit:  I could get behind some sort of plan for addressing student loan debt.  I don't mean to be a huge naysayer. 

Edited by Sweet J

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1 minute ago, Sweet J said:

It's not means-tested.  Just automatically wipes out ALL debt.  There are a lot of people that come from families who have money who have big student loans. 

A family who makes $100k a year could send their kid to state school and incur minimal debt, or encourage their kid to go to the "best" school and get saddled with $200k a year.  I don't envision people making $100k a year as "less wealthy people." 

I wouldn't mind spending this money on families who are so downtrodden they don't even make it to college.  Or what about dirt poor families who scrimp to send kids to community college who are so beaten down it doesn't even occur to them to take out debt. 

Everything doesn't have to be means tested on both ends.  If we would start taxing at real progressive rates, then most of the money the government used for these new programs would be coming from the top 1%.  If those same 1% get to send their kid to college for free or gets single-payer health care, that's fine.  The money came from them anyway.  It's a lot more administratively simple to NOT means test everything. 

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The amount of student debt is too large. They’re  getting good jobs but they’re not able to buy homes at the rate their parents and grandparents did because they just can’t afford it. Home purchases are the foundation of a stable society, IMO, so we should look at student loan forgiveness as a sort of new GI bill.   

 

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A gradual forgiveness of student debt over a decade or so plus a gradual transition to M4A would greatly increase the living standards of the majority of Americans. We just gotta have the want-to.

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56 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

I just posted about this in the Biden thread, but I supposed it is more appropriate here:  I finally read a little more about Bernie's student loan forgiveness plan.  It's a stupid plan that made me mad just reading about it.  It's so stupid it dropped him to dead last out of all the Dem contenders (for me, at least).  How could anyone support this?  Good god. 

Does it do anything to fix how we got there in the first place? 

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46 minutes ago, timschochet said:

The amount of student debt is too large. They’re  getting good jobs but they’re not able to buy homes at the rate their parents and grandparents did because they just can’t afford it. Home purchases are the foundation of a stable society, IMO, so we should look at student loan forgiveness as a sort of new GI bill.   

 

Maybe the concepts of ownership are shifting in the country.   I've seen a lot of advanced theory that we will simply not own cars within 30 years, everything will be an uber system.  I don't know if thats true but there's a lot of logic to it if we are going driverless.

I can't fathom forgiving the principle on these debts.  You want to waive the interest I can listen but I'd sooner see everyone in america given 50 grand and if you were blue collar or you saved money, well here's 50 grand and if you have student debt, put it towards that.

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44 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Does it do anything to fix how we got there in the first place? 

No it doesn't, at least what's presented to us and that's pretty shocking.  Most of his proposals address where we went wrong as well.  It's probably the least forward thinking of his policies best I can tell.  Now if we put it together with his extension of public education to college, then the answer could be yes if the people utilize the programs correctly.  But there is nothing in this policy that I see which would prevent people from making poor decisions with respect to their education.

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When you're trying to make a change, you will face opposition. If that change is to ever come to be, you must conquer it.

 

Let's go!!!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sweet J said:

It's not means-tested.  Just automatically wipes out ALL debt.  There are a lot of people that come from families who have money who have big student loans. 

A family who makes $100k a year could send their kid to state school and incur minimal debt, or encourage their kid to go to the "best" school and get saddled with $200k a year.  I don't envision people making $100k a year as "less wealthy people." 

I wouldn't mind spending this money on families who are so downtrodden they don't even make it to college.  Or what about dirt poor families who scrimp to send kids to community college who are so beaten down it doesn't even occur to them to take out debt. 

Edit:  I could get behind some sort of plan for addressing student loan debt.  I don't mean to be a huge naysayer. 

I have not looked closely into the details of the Sanders debt forgiveness, but I was initially a Warren supporter earlier in the primary because she tended to use more "hard" numbers when showing how she would reach calculations for things like childcare and debt forgiveness and his are more general ideas without the math calculations. I have a feeling that it would not literally be no debt for anyone, but there would be numerous thresholds, partial payments etc once a plan is drawn up in reality. Then again I might be wrong, I am just theorizing. 

Also, things have a cost no matter who is in office. I would rather my tax money go towards improving the life of a young person moving out into the world with less debt then toward the 12th yacht for a billionaire like it is now.

Edited by huthut
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31 minutes ago, Smack Tripper said:

I'd sooner see everyone in america given 50 grand and if you were blue collar or you saved money, well here's 50 grand and if you have student debt, put it towards that.

I'd be OK with that too.

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1 hour ago, Sweet J said:

It's not means-tested.  Just automatically wipes out ALL debt.  There are a lot of people that come from families who have money who have big student loans. 

A family who makes $100k a year could send their kid to state school and incur minimal debt, or encourage their kid to go to the "best" school and get saddled with $200k a year.  I don't envision people making $100k a year as "less wealthy people." 

I wouldn't mind spending this money on families who are so downtrodden they don't even make it to college.  Or what about dirt poor families who scrimp to send kids to community college who are so beaten down it doesn't even occur to them to take out debt. 

Edit:  I could get behind some sort of plan for addressing student loan debt.  I don't mean to be a huge naysayer. 

If elected Bernie is not getting this passed as he is saying now.   If he does get something passed it will be a very watered-down version.

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2 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

If elected Bernie is not getting this passed as he is saying now.   If he does get something passed it will be a very watered-down version.

But it advances the football forward

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2 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

If elected Bernie is not getting this passed as he is saying now.   If he does get something passed it will be a very watered-down version.

So this is the other aspect of why the fear mongering is so absurd.  I'll say now that 95% of what he wants to do is dead on arrival.  It's not going to happen.  So why elect him?  Because we have two sides of the Presidency that need repair now.  The respect for rule of law now has to be restored as do a myriad of other moral aspects.  And then there's always the political aspects.  But, IMO, you don't get to the politics part until you restore the moral parts.

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Just now, HellToupee said:

But it advances the football forward

If it can't help reduce the financial burden on college students of the middle and lower class I am good with it.  I am not in favor of wiping all student debt across the board though.

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5 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

You mean by people voting for someone else? I don't know, I kind of enjoy the concept of democracy.

So if Bernie has the delegate lead going into the convention, and they go with Biden, that feels like the will of the people to you?

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Just now, The Commish said:

So this is the other aspect of why the fear mongering is so absurd.  I'll say now that 95% of what he wants to do is dead on arrival.  It's not going to happen.  So why elect him?  Because we have two sides of the Presidency that need repair now.  The respect for rule of law now has to be restored as do a myriad of other moral aspects.  And then there's always the political aspects.  But, IMO, you don't get to the politics part until you restore the moral parts.

While I agree with this I think his message will not resonate with independents and moderates which will likely need to another 4 years of Trump.   

The primary for PA is April 28th so it may be a moot point but if I am faced with a choice of Bernie, Bloomberg or Biden I can tell you that Bernie is my last choice.

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2 minutes ago, Smack Tripper said:

So if Bernie has the delegate lead going into the convention, and they go with Biden, that feels like the will of the people to you?

Is that what you think that chart shows?

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2 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

The primary for PA is April 28th so it may be a moot point but if I am faced with a choice of Bernie, Bloomberg or Biden I can tell you that Bernie is my last choice.

Warren has claimed she's going to stay in too.

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1 minute ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Warren has claimed she's going to stay in too.

Okay.  Bernie is my second-last choice then.

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3 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

While I agree with this I think his message will not resonate with independents and moderates which will likely need to another 4 years of Trump.   

The primary for PA is April 28th so it may be a moot point but if I am faced with a choice of Bernie, Bloomberg or Biden I can tell you that Bernie is my last choice.

I don't know if it will or not.  I personally think this election is different.  The Dems haven't had an energized segment of their base like Bernie's supporters in my lifetime.  Not only are they energized, they are turning out the vote in others.  Sadly enough, in our current set up, the more energized the bases and cores are, the less they need the independents and moderates.  I understand your sentiment as it pertains to the primary.  I don't understand it at all as it pertains to the general.  The choice is going to be between Trump and the Dem candidate.  As long as that Dem candidate isn't Bloomberg, I don't see the problem.  But I also admit I am coming at this from a "country first, respect the rule of law, respect all the groups in this country, we'll talk policies later" perspective.  

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5 minutes ago, Smack Tripper said:

The Betting odds chart?  

Yes.  You posted that, and asked if people were okay with Bernie getting screwed.  My interpretation of that chart is not that it will lead to Bernie losing the nomination because of delegates switching to Biden at a contested convention despite Bernie having more delegates walking in.  It's that Biden will win the nomination because more delegates will be awarded to him over the next couple months.

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5 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Yes.  You posted that, and asked if people were okay with Bernie getting screwed.  My interpretation of that chart is not that it will lead to Bernie losing the nomination because of delegates switching to Biden at a contested convention despite Bernie having more delegates walking in.  It's that Biden will win the nomination because more delegates will be awarded to him over the next couple months.

Thats fair, we'll see how that plays out.  

My theory would be the number changed due to forces aligning against him but i may be over interpreting.  

So allowing for that error on my part, to go back to my original question, would you consider him screwed if he held the lead and it went contested?  Would you support that?

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22 minutes ago, Smack Tripper said:

Thats fair, we'll see how that plays out.  

My theory would be the number changed due to forces aligning against him but i may be over interpreting.  

So allowing for that error on my part, to go back to my original question, would you consider him screwed if he held the lead and it went contested?  Would you support that?

I think it depends on the lead and the distance to a majority.  But potentially.  I also think it's his own fault, so I wouldn't feel terribly for him for getting screwed and I'd think less of him for complaining about it after his own push to do the same thing to Clinton.

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1 hour ago, Henry Ford said:

I think it depends on the lead and the distance to a majority.  But potentially.  I also think it's his own fault, so I wouldn't feel terribly for him for getting screwed and I'd think less of him for complaining about it after his own push to do the same thing to Clinton.

How did he push to do the same to Clinton?

 

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2 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

I think it depends on the lead and the distance to a majority.  But potentially.  I also think it's his own fault, so I wouldn't feel terribly for him for getting screwed and I'd think less of him for complaining about it after his own push to do the same thing to Clinton.

Care to explain why?

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13 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Here.

He argued that the super delegates of each state should be loyal to the will of the voters of that state.  He explicitly said he wanted no part of the super delegates in states that Clinton won.

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Glad I didn't mail in my Pete ballot early.  Voted for Bernie.  

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35 minutes ago, Navin Johnson said:

He argued that the super delegates of each state should be loyal to the will of the voters of that state.  He explicitly said he wanted no part of the super delegates in states that Clinton won.

She was leading in delegates, even without superdelegates.  He intended to fight to be the nominee in a contested convention.

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27 minutes ago, Dickies said:

Glad I didn't mail in my Pete ballot early.  Voted for Bernie.  

Dropped my ballot of and harvested 5 more.

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Well if bernie gets screwed I guess the side pot is we can shelve the electoral college talk for a generation 

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1 hour ago, Navin Johnson said:

He argued that the super delegates of each state should be loyal to the will of the voters of that state.  He explicitly said he wanted no part of the super delegates in states that Clinton won.

I dont believe that is true. I think he said states she won by a large margin, not just states she won. He may have eventually backed down, but at some point he was actively campaigning superdelegates to flip, regardless if Hillary had the lead. There is no other way to interpret the bold.

Here was his campaign manager.

Quote

 

Now we can argue about the merits of having superdelegates," Weaver continued, "but we do have them. And if their role is just to rubber-stamp the pledged-delegate count then they really aren't needed. They're supposed to exercise independent judgment about who they think can lead the party forward to victory."

Weaver added that superdelegates don't vote until they actually go to the convention, and he considers their allegiances as movable as poll numbers.

If by the convention Sanders has "substantial momentum" and has substantially "closed the gap" in pledged delegates, Weaver said, "I think there's a strong argument to be made to superdelegates that they should take another look."

 

 

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This should surprise nobody from the linked article above...

Quote

So far, no Clinton-backing superdelegates have flipped to Sanders, despite an aggressive lobbying campaign from his supporters that in some cases included harassing phones calls and online threats.

 

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6 hours ago, Sweet J said:

I just posted about this in the Biden thread, but I supposed it is more appropriate here:  I finally read a little more about Bernie's student loan forgiveness plan.  It's a stupid plan that made me mad just reading about it.  It's so stupid it dropped him to dead last out of all the Dem contenders (for me, at least).  How could anyone support this?  Good god. 

 I think I'm going to vote for Biden over Bernie and this student loan idea is the deciding reason why.  

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11 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I dont believe that is true. I think he said states she won by a large margin, not just states she won. He may have eventually backed down, but at some point he was actively campaigning superdelegates to flip, regardless if Hillary had the lead. There is no other way to interpret the bold.

Here was his campaign manager.

 

https://youtu.be/ekuqXwmx_KY

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4 minutes ago, Navin Johnson said:

The lead in commentary says...

Quote

While Sanders concedes that the process is "not rigged," he disapproves of Clinton's superdelegate wins months before the election. He adds, however, that he won't attempt to woo those superdelegates from states where his rival netted landslide victories.

Bernie's own words in that video.

Quote

"Superdelgates in states where a candidate wins a landslide victory should listen to the people in those states"

 

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