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BigSteelThrill

Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being.

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16 hours ago, caustic said:

Highest favorability of any candidate in the field, legions of donors, winner of the first three contests. Sounds like a frontrunner to me. :drive:

Archie Bunker would call him a Pinko.

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3 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

If Bernie is the presumptive nominee, he needs to make an attempt to make nice with the rest of the party. He needs to do that now. We need to coalesce.

Maybe he should  bow to the establishment ? Grovel hat in hand for support? 

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3 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Or, alternatively, the DNC and media could stop obstructing and attacking him, with falsehoods and innuendo. But maybe you are right, it should be up to him to come groveling to them because he is just the guy who is winning with voters.

I'm not saying he needs to kiss ###, but an olive branch would be nice. The Bernie bros can be every bit as nasty as the Deplorables. The get on board or f off rhetoric is not helpful. 

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I honestly believe that Sanders gives the dems the best chance to win in November. I thought the same thing in 2016. I don't see any other candidate getting out the vote like Sanders will. Sure, maybe Bloomberg flips some moderate republicans and but how the hell can the democratic party nominate a guy who supported GWB in 2004? Just can't imagine that he'd get a similar turnout to Bernie. Still, I'm realistic about Bernie's chances in that I understand beating Trump is not going to be easy.

The PBS Frontline "America's Great Divide" episode that aired last month features Steve Schmidt, a guy who's obviously bright and well-informed. In the full interview posted on youtube (can't remember if it made the episode) he said "In America, the socialist loses to the sociopath in every election, every day of the week, and twice on Sunday." He did try to paint Obama as a socialist in 2008 and we know how that turned out but hearing him say this is a bit scary knowing that Bernie embraces the label. Curious how other Sanders supporters feel about it.

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3 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

I'm not saying he needs to kiss ###, but an olive branch would be nice. The Bernie bros can be every bit as nasty as the Deplorables. The get on board or f off rhetoric is not helpful. 

I didn’t realize that Sanders controlled all of his supporters.

If petty resentments end up allowing an unqualified authoritarian sociopath to win AGAIN over a guy who wants to emulate the policies in place in the best places in Western Europe, then this country isn’t worth saving, IMO.

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1 hour ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

I didn’t realize that Sanders controlled all of his supporters.

If petty resentments end up allowing an unqualified authoritarian sociopath to win AGAIN over a guy who wants to emulate the policies in place in the best places in Western Europe, then this country isn’t worth saving, IMO.

I agree with you, but we know what happened in 2016. Don't underestimate petty resentments. 

Edited by Patrick Bateman

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26 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

If Bernie is the presumptive nominee, he needs to make an attempt to make nice with the rest of the party. He needs to do that now. We need to coalesce.

Just wait until the Hillary special comes out next month on cable, she really goes after Bernie, no love between them

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14 minutes ago, Nipsey said:

I honestly believe that Sanders gives the dems the best chance to win in November. I thought the same thing in 2016. I don't see any other candidate getting out the vote like Sanders will. Sure, maybe Bloomberg flips some moderate republicans and but how the hell can the democratic party nominate a guy who supported GWB in 2004? Just can't imagine that he'd get a similar turnout to Bernie. Still, I'm realistic about Bernie's chances in that I understand beating Trump is not going to be easy.

The PBS Frontline "America's Great Divide" episode that aired last month features Steve Schmidt, a guy who's obviously bright and well-informed. In the full interview posted on youtube (can't remember if it made the episode) he said "In America, the socialist loses to the sociopath in every election, every day of the week, and twice on Sunday." He did try to paint Obama as a socialist in 2008 and we know how that turned out but hearing him say this is a bit scary knowing that Bernie embraces the label. Curious how other Sanders supporters feel about it.

The fact he embraces the term “socialism”, even while not advocating for anything like it, is weird and frustrating. 

But the word is a lot more toxic for people in our age group than it is for the younger generations. And there is a lot of leverage in boosting voter participation among younger people. A LOT.

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3 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

I remember you mentioning you had a soft spot for Bernie.  Do you think there are a lot of people that like both Bernie and Trump? I think there are but it doesn’t seem like it around here.  Here, everyone seems to either hate Trump, hate Bernie or both.

I like what Trump says just as much as I like what Bernie says. Only difference is that Trump is being dishonest 

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9 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

Just wait until the Hillary special comes out next month on cable, she really goes after Bernie, no love between them

Yep. After the debacle with the DNC in 2016, Bernie implored his supporters to vote for Hilary, and many refused. If you spend any time on Twitter or FB, you know that the resentment is still there. Constant mudslinging for the past 3 years. 

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16 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

Just wait until the Hillary special comes out next month on cable, she really goes after Bernie, no love between them

I can’t believe a special on Hillary would get many viewers.

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21 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

The fact he embraces the term “socialism”, even while not advocating for anything like it, is weird and frustrating. 

But the word is a lot more toxic for people in our age group than it is for the younger generations. And there is a lot of leverage in boosting voter participation among younger people. A LOT.

Will those younger people vote in Pennsylvania?  I hope so. 

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22 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

I can’t believe a special on Hillary would get many viewers.

I sure it will make it’s way to twitter and Facebook, not that anyone spends time their.

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1 hour ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Tim, I say this with affection, but you are deeply afflicted with Reasonable White Man’s disease. A friend of mine who is an academic and psychology researcher told me about it. I have had a very bad case of it for most of my life, though I have beaten it into remission.

i think my friend got the idea from MLK’s writings. Put simply, Reasonable White Man’s disease is mistaking how commonplace a norm or idea is in our society for how right, correct, or logical it is. This happens when the way a society works has worked for you—in that case it is easy and even natural to mistake the norms that made that possible for being logical and positive.

Again, I am not attacking you in the least. Realizing that I was deeply affected by that process was one of the keys in my recent shift in political philosophy.

You didn’t have to tell me this dude. I know I’m afflicted with it. I feel very guilty about it. 

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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

Another issue Bernie appears to give himself great credit for was his opposition to the Iraq War. That’s fine until you look at it in context of Bernie being an unrealistic pacifist who has basically opposed every military action by the United States since 1960. In that light his opposition becomes far less brave and visionary and far more predictable. 

That’s a really powerful statement until you realize he voted for the Afghan AUMF roughly a year before the Iraq vote. 

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29 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

I am surprised to hear you say it is spot on in so many ways since it really didn't actually say anything. 

That article can be summed up as...

"Hey guys, Bernie's plans seem really expensive, but trust me they aren't!"

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When someone says they are against Medicare for All because it is going to cost X dollars, it often feels like the critics are acting as if it will be an entirely new cost, as if healthcare costs $0 right now and then it will suddenly cost trillions. To me that article just seems to be pointing out that we are already spending trillions on healthcare, so it is not like it is some straight up $ amount added to the deficit... you know, like tax cuts for the rich.

 

Edited by huthut
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20 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I am surprised to hear you say it is spot on in so many ways since it really didn't actually say anything. 

That article can be summed up as...

"Hey guys, Bernie's plans seem really expensive, but trust me they aren't!"

You missed the whole point: the cost of inaction.

It’s like deferred maintenance on a house. Not spending money on things that need to be done may create more disposable income today, but at some point down the road the costs will come due, perhaps when the roof collapses.

And in this analogy, the savings by deferring maintenance are being spent to buy new swans at the gated country club community that you don’t even belong to.

Edited by RedmondLonghorn

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11 minutes ago, huthut said:

When someone says they are against Medicare for All because it is going to cost X dollars, it often feels like the critics are acting as if it will be an entirely new cost, as if healthcare costs $0 right now and then it will suddenly cost trillions. To me that article just seems to be pointing out that we are already spending trillions on healthcare, so it is not like it is some straight up $ amount added to the deficit... you know, like tax cuts for the rich.

There was a thread a while back where it was asked what phrase one would like on their gravestone.  My answer would be "Follow the Money" .

The people who would lose the most would be the people making the most money off the current system.

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1 hour ago, Patrick Bateman said:
1 hour ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Or, alternatively, the DNC and media could stop obstructing and attacking him, with falsehoods and innuendo. But maybe you are right, it should be up to him to come groveling to them because he is just the guy who is winning with voters.

I'm not saying he needs to kiss ###, but an olive branch would be nice. The Bernie bros can be every bit as nasty as the Deplorables. The get on board or f off rhetoric is not helpful. 

Who are these Bernie Bros?

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1 hour ago, Gopher State said:
2 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

If Bernie is the presumptive nominee, he needs to make an attempt to make nice with the rest of the party. He needs to do that now. We need to coalesce.

Just wait until the Hillary special comes out next month on cable, she really goes after Bernie, no love between them

I am not 100% sold that Hillary talking bad about Sanders hurts him

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9 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

You missed the whole point: the cost of inaction.

It’s like deferred maintenance on a house. Not spending money on things that need to be done may create more disposable income today, but at some point down the road the costs will come due, perhaps when the roof collapses.

And in this analogy, the savings by deferring maintenance are being spent to buy new swans at the gated country club community that you don’t even belong to.

I didn't miss anything. The article only mentioned generalities and I don't think cited a single actual future cost that would be taken care of by Bernie's plans. 

I am not opposed to the line of thinking, but just saying it doesn't make it true. If you want to argue that the green new deal will save us money in the future, then that should be pretty easy to show at least a few examples. The deferred maintenance example you gave was more detail than that article gave, and that still isn't anything.

Just imagine a roofer stopping at your door...

You need a new roof!!!

Oh really? I didn't think it was that old. In fact I think it has like 15 years left on it.

Well just think if you don't get one in time, your roof could collapse! Better get it replaced. A new roof is much cheaper than getting new trusses and framing!

You would tell him to piss off.   

When I am trying to convince people to spend money because it will save them money in the future, I think I might actually present them with some data. I realize the author can't show what every single climate change event would cost, but at least present something that has some firm numbers behind it. 

 

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29 minutes ago, toshiba said:

I am not 100% sold that Hillary talking bad about Sanders hurts him

Hopefully the Millennials and Latinx voters can save the adults from themselves. 

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6 hours ago, HellToupee said:

As a Trump supporter Bernie is the only candidate I fear. He’s passionate, his hardcore supporters are equally passionate. The rest of the field doesn’t bring this . Bernie definitely has more than a punchers chance

I understand this line of thinking but I think it is offset.

There are plenty of conservatives in America who despise Trump. In the last election, I suspect there were many people who voted for Trump because they were voting against HRC, not because they truly wanted Trump. Now, a few years into Trump's presidency, I think a lot of conservative voters hate the idea of voting for him again. But making Bernie the alternative is just a repeat of last time, as it will cause most/all of that group to vote for Trump again in order to vote against Bernie... Bernie is far more radical than HRC.

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5 hours ago, HellToupee said:

My biggest concern with Bernie would be the stock market reaction 

i think the market would probably react and then be fine. still the best place globally to park your money.

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2 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

 The Bernie bros can be every bit as nasty as the Deplorables.

whatever you wanna believe :lmao:

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1 hour ago, huthut said:

When someone says they are against Medicare for All because it is going to cost X dollars, it often feels like the critics are acting as if it will be an entirely new cost, as if healthcare costs $0 right now and then it will suddenly cost trillions. To me that article just seems to be pointing out that we are already spending trillions on healthcare, so it is not like it is some straight up $ amount added to the deficit... you know, like tax cuts for the rich. 

I simply want Bernie or any other candidate in favor of his M4A plan to do the following:

  1. Show a plan that pays for it. Bernie's "plan" only identifies how to cover half of the expected added Federal expense. Saying that the overall NHE will be about the same doesn't address the point. His "plan" is $16T short of being paid for in the first 10 years of implementation. How much of that is going to be paid by businesses, including small businesses, and how will that affect the economy? How much of that will be paid in additional individual taxes? The details matter.
  2. Show a plan that explains how we will transition from the current system to M4A. How long will it take? When does current insurance go away? What happens to the insurance companies and their employees? What should be the expected effect on the stock market, given many of those companies are publicly traded? Etc.

I get that there are millions who are convinced it is the right thing to do. For all those who believe that, why can't you show me actual plans that give us confidence we can do it successfully?

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12 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:
7 hours ago, HellToupee said:

As a Trump supporter Bernie is the only candidate I fear. He’s passionate, his hardcore supporters are equally passionate. The rest of the field doesn’t bring this . Bernie definitely has more than a punchers chance

I understand this line of thinking but I think it is offset.

There are plenty of conservatives in America who despise Trump. In the last election, I suspect there were many people who voted for Trump because they were voting against HRC, not because they truly wanted Trump. Now, a few years into Trump's presidency, I think a lot of conservative voters hate the idea of voting for him again. But making Bernie the alternative is just a repeat of last time, as it will cause most/all of that group to vote for Trump again in order to vote against Bernie... Bernie is far more radical than HRC.

The dislike of Hillary wasn't because of her positions.

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1 minute ago, Just Win Baby said:

I simply want Bernie or any other candidate in favor of his M4A plan to do the following:

  1. Show a plan that pays for it. Bernie's "plan" only identifies how to cover half of the expected added Federal expense. Saying that the overall NHE will be about the same doesn't address the point. His "plan" is $16T short of being paid for in the first 10 years of implementation. How much of that is going to be paid by businesses, including small businesses, and how will that affect the economy? How much of that will be paid in additional individual taxes? The details matter.
  2. Show a plan that explains how we will transition from the current system to M4A. How long will it take? When does current insurance go away? What happens to the insurance companies and their employees? What should be the expected effect on the stock market, given many of those companies are publicly traded? Etc.

I get that there are millions who are convinced it is the right thing to do. For all those who believe that, why can't you show me actual plans that give us confidence we can do it successfully?

Define successful, I think that's where the issue lay.

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58 minutes ago, Leroy Hoard said:

The people who would lose the most would be the people making the most money off the current system.

M4A amounts to a transfer of health care (care, not just dollars) from some people to others. The people who would lose the most would be the people who will no longer receive the high quality healthcare they receive today. The recent study frequently cited mentions that M4A would save 68K lives per year. Well, it will also cost lives of people whose healthcare quality is reduced. There is no way around that when you put the entirety of funding and paying for healthcare into a Government budget.

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2 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

I simply want Bernie or any other candidate in favor of his M4A plan to do the following:

  1. Show a plan that pays for it. Bernie's "plan" only identifies how to cover half of the expected added Federal expense. Saying that the overall NHE will be about the same doesn't address the point. His "plan" is $16T short of being paid for in the first 10 years of implementation. How much of that is going to be paid by businesses, including small businesses, and how will that affect the economy? How much of that will be paid in additional individual taxes? The details matter.
  2. Show a plan that explains how we will transition from the current system to M4A. How long will it take? When does current insurance go away? What happens to the insurance companies and their employees? What should be the expected effect on the stock market, given many of those companies are publicly traded? Etc.

I get that there are millions who are convinced it is the right thing to do. For all those who believe that, why can't you show me actual plans that give us confidence we can do it successfully?

I think you should look at how seamlessly the website for Obamacare was rolled out there. I realize that was just a website, but if they can hit that out of the park like that why would you have any doubts about this? 

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6 minutes ago, BigSteelThrill said:

whatever you wanna believe :lmao:

🤣 Bernie says it's the Russians. Seriously. He said that. Can you believe it?  

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10 minutes ago, toshiba said:

The dislike of Hillary wasn't because of her positions.

I know. The dislike of Bernie is, though. Either way, the end result is the same -- extreme dislike to the point of voting for the other guy.

Edited by Just Win Baby
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5 minutes ago, toshiba said:

Define successful, I think that's where the issue lay.

The tricky part of "successful" here is more my item #2. But item #1 should be easy, shouldn't it? And it should be obvious that a plan to pay for it is needed, right? I mean, everything would just be an estimate, everything will change, etc. But there has to at least be a notional plan, right?

But Bernie has put forward a "plan" that shows how we could supposedly cover ~$16T of the projected ~$32T in increased Federal spending for M4A in the first 10 years. That obviously doesn't cut it. Where is the other half coming from?

Could it be that he isn't addressing that because the other half would have to come from business taxes, including small businesses, and individual tax payers, including middle class families? Could it be that Bernie knows addressing that truthfully would turn away voters?

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2 hours ago, Gopher State said:

I sure it will make it’s way to twitter and Facebook, not that anyone spends time their.

We know you’ll be watching.  You’re more obsessed with Hillary than anyone I know.  

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7 hours ago, HellToupee said:

 As a Trump supporter Bernie is the only candidate I fear. He’s passionate, his hardcore supporters are equally passionate. The rest of the field doesn’t bring this . Bernie definitely has more than a punchers chance 

Good shtick for the unsuspecting here.  

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41 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I think you should look at how seamlessly the website for Obamacare was rolled out there. I realize that was just a website, but if they can hit that out of the park like that why would you have any doubts about this? 

You’re a smart guy - in retrospect the technical difficulties when the ACA website came out was nothing more than a speedbump, and it was fine what, 6 days later?   

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44 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

I simply want Bernie or any other candidate in favor of his M4A plan to do the following:

  1. Show a plan that pays for it. Bernie's "plan" only identifies how to cover half of the expected added Federal expense. Saying that the overall NHE will be about the same doesn't address the point. His "plan" is $16T short of being paid for in the first 10 years of implementation. How much of that is going to be paid by businesses, including small businesses, and how will that affect the economy? How much of that will be paid in additional individual taxes? The details matter.
  2. Show a plan that explains how we will transition from the current system to M4A. How long will it take? When does current insurance go away? What happens to the insurance companies and their employees? What should be the expected effect on the stock market, given many of those companies are publicly traded? Etc.

All this would be important if M4A actually had a prayer of getting passed, but since it doesn't, it's smart for Bernie to be vague. Fleshing out all the gory details of a semi-unpopular policy that's DOA would be an own goal. 

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31 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

You’re a smart guy - in retrospect the technical difficulties when the ACA website came out was nothing more than a speedbump, and it was fine what, 6 days later?   

Ten months later...

More

It isnt something like, oh, big deal a website was down for a tiny bit. It also blew through the budget like my mom did when she got her marshall fields card. 

And that was much smaller scale. 

Edited by parasaurolophus

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1 hour ago, Just Win Baby said:

I know. The dislike of Bernie is, though. Either way, the end result is the same -- extreme dislike to the point of voting for the other guy.

Most of his positions actually poll really well, when you strip away the intentional fear-mongering and disinformation.

Sanders is the only candidate in the Democratic field who has the capability to actually move the Overton Window towards the left. Warren tried, but then chickened out. Dems have been content to play within the window for decades, as Republicans have shifted it steadily to the right. It's insane. Sanders isn't that much more left-leaning than forking Dwight Eisenhower was, FFS.

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31 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Ten months later...

More

It isnt something like, oh, big deal a website was down for a tiny bit. It also blew through the budget like my mom did when she got her marshall fields card. 

And that was much smaller scale. 

It seems exactly like “the website was down for a tiny bit”.  Those cost overruns are a tiny fraction of what we paid to subsidize farmers this year due to Trumps tariffs.  And the website helped 10s of millions get healthcare.  

Edited by tommyGunZ

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24 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

It seems exactly like “the website was down for a tiny bit”.  Those cost overruns are a tiny fraction of what we paid to subsidize farmers this year due to Trumps tariffs.  And the website helped 10s of millions get healthcare.  

Did you hurt your back moving those goalposts? 

 

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28 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Most of his positions actually poll really well, when you strip away the intentional fear-mongering and disinformation.

Sanders is the only candidate in the Democratic field who has the capability to actually move the Overton Window towards the left. Warren tried, but then chickened out. Dems have been content to play within the window for decades, as Republicans have shifted it steadily to the right. It's insane. Sanders isn't that much more left-leaning than forking Dwight Eisenhower was, FFS.

I always like to bring up FDR's Second Bill of Rights (1944). It was far more radical than anything Bernie is proposing.

  • The right to a job
  • The right to a living wage (earn enough to provide food, clothing, and recreation)
  • The right to a home
  • The right to medical care
  • The right to education

And then of course you can point to Nixon advocating for universal healthcare coverage.

 

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26 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

It seems exactly like “the website was down for a tiny bit”.  Those cost overruns are a tiny fraction of what we paid to subsidize farmers this year due to Trumps tariffs.  And the website helped 10s of millions get healthcare.  

Only 8.3 million this year.  That’s not 10s of millions

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The awful rollout of the ACA is exactly why we should all be skeptical of cost projections for an even bigger rollout of a brand new health coverage that lack substance. 

That was something very small in comparison and they exploded the budget. 

I am actually in favor of universal coverage. I actually despise the current system. But i would despise a system that costs me a ton more and makes my coverage worse so the details to me are very important. 

I would happily pay 10-20% more per year if it meant I didnt have to deal with all the bs health screenings and surveys and "challenges" that we have to complete for our coverage. 

I mean we now use a third party scheduler for our third party annual health screenings. This info is the used by another third party to help create "wellness plans". The whole thing is nauseating.

And it goes to bid every damn year. I might skip going to the doctor because i dont want to deal with filling out new forms because we got new coverage. 

I also hate the concept of employer provided coverage. It eliminated consumerism in the medical industry when plans were 100% covered by employers and now it creates labor issues whenever costs go up and are being passed on in ways to employees. So the whole model is already fubared.

So lets build a new one.

Just dont tell me "trust me we know what we are doing and we spend a lot on farmers you know."

 

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8 minutes ago, BassNBrew said:

Only 8.3 million this year.  That’s not 10s of millions

Looks like we spend 737 billion on the program. 

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4 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

I can’t believe a special on Hillary would get many viewers.

Honestly, I might have to hate-watch it.  I'm a very petty person that way.

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