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18 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Simple question:

Hypothetically, if Sanders was elected and was able to enact whatever programs he wanted, with minimal compromise, do you think the end state would look more like Norway or Cuba?

If Sanders is such a fan of Norway, why has spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes?  Why is it so challenging to say plainly that those governments are bad without talking about their wonderful, cutting-edge literacy programs?

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

If Sanders is such a fan of Norway, why has spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes?  Why is it so challenging to say plainly that those governments are bad without talking about their wonderful, cutting-edge literacy programs?

This didn't answer his question.

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5 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If Sanders is such a fan of Norway, why has spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes?  Why is it so challenging to say plainly that those governments are bad without talking about their wonderful, cutting-edge literacy programs?

That’s a good question.

it also isn’t an answer.

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I think if people are truly concerned about a slippery slope to true socialism and/or communism if Bernie is elected then it’s completely fair to point out the same slippery slip to authoritarian or dictator rule if we re-elect Trump.  I get Bernie is not some folks favorite but honestly I’m not convinced of either slippery slope but if you made me pick which one I would be more concerned about realistically happening it would be the latter.  Again, I find both far fetched.

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1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

I think if people are truly concerned about a slippery slope to true socialism and/or communism if Bernie is elected then it’s completely fair to point out the same slippery slip to authoritarian or dictator rule if we re-elect Trump.  I get Bernie is not some folks favorite but honestly I’m not convinced of either slippery slope but if you made me pick which one I would be more concerned about realistically happening it would be the latter.  Again, I find both far fetched.

Dude, we are already sliding down the Right Wing authoritarian slope, and picking up speed.

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Just now, RedmondLonghorn said:

That’s a good question.

it also isn’t an answer.

To be honest it’s kind of a stupid question. I can be on board with a few/some/all of the programs Bernie is proposing (Norway-style) but be irritated with his possible blind spot for left wing dictators. I can also REALLY be concerned with how that’s going to weigh him down in the general when the end goal is getting Trump out and all hr needs to do is answer in a non-dumb way.

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8 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If Sanders is such a fan of Norway, why has spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes?  Why is it so challenging to say plainly that those governments are bad without talking about their wonderful, cutting-edge literacy programs?

I attribute it to miscalculations more than he secretly wants true socialism.  Call me naive if you want - hell, the man is honest to a fault and this is a perfect example IMO.

You know what you are getting with Bernie and he ultimately has the interests of everyone in mind - with Trump you have no idea what you are getting as he lies constantly and seems to only care about himself and what it does for him.  I know which side I’m on - the one that actually gives a damn about people.

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As a friend of mine just texted me:
 

American media:
What isn’t radical: ditching 250 years of rule or law, descent into Kakistocracy.

What is radical: Germany. 

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Just now, Hugh Jass said:

To be honest it’s kind of a stupid question. I can be on board with a few/some/all of the programs Bernie is proposing (Norway-style) but be irritated with his possible blind spot for left wing dictators. I can also REALLY be concerned with how that’s going to weigh him down in the general when the end goal is getting Trump out and all hr needs to do is answer in a non-dumb way.

Ok!

(I have the same concerns that every time he says “socialism” it hurts him.)

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1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

I attribute it to miscalculations more than he secretly wants true socialism.  Call me naive if you want - hell, the man is honest to a fault and this is a perfect example IMO.

You know what you are getting with Bernie and he ultimately has the interests of everyone in mind - with Trump you have no idea what you are getting as he lies constantly and seems to only care about himself and what it does for him.  I know which side I’m on - the one that actually gives a damn about people.

We know exactly what we are getting with Trump. Pretending we don’t is part of the problem. 

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

The question is just an attempt to deflect.

Deflect from what? 
 

it is a simple, straight forward question.

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1 minute ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Ok!

(I have the same concerns that every time he says “socialism” it hurts him.)

Lol and I’m not meaning to be harsh. Maybe I’ve seen too many tweets today on Bernie from his True Believers. I saw what True Believer-ism looked like the past 4 years and am concerned we’ll see the same thing on a different side of the coin the next 4 where one cannot criticize dear leader.

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

The question is just an attempt to deflect.

It depends what your point is.

If your argument is "the way Sanders talks about this stuff will hurt his election prospects," I agree tha question isn't particularly relevant.

But your posts seem to be suggesting that Sanders actually wants to be some sort of left wing dictator.  If that's what you're suggesting, I think it's worth following up.  Because I've seen Bernie in dozens of speeches and debates talk about Denmark and the Nordic model, etc.  I've never once heard him affirmatively bring up Cuba or some Latin American country as something we should be emulating here.  

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6 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Dude, we are already sliding down the Right Wing authoritarian slope, and picking up speed.

I hear what you are saying but I still think we have checks in place that puts even Trump in his place.  I’m very concerned what he may try to do during a 2nd term but I’m not sure I’m to the point of this being an existential threat like some are.

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1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

I hear what you are saying but I still think we have checks in place that puts even Trump in his place.  I’m very concerned what he may try to do during a 2nd term but I’m not sure I’m to the point of this being an existential threat like some are.

Such as?

Seems like with the DOJ and Senate in your pocket, you can pretty much get away with whatever you want.

But I am interested in what checks we have left.

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6 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

We know exactly what we are getting with Trump. Pretending we don’t is part of the problem. 

I’m not pretending anything - he’s horrible but I don’t know where he’s thinking he will go with this.  My sense is he just wants to be rich and powerful, beyond that I think anybody is guessing.

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3 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I hear what you are saying but I still think we have checks in place that puts even Trump in his place.  I’m very concerned what he may try to do during a 2nd term but I’m not sure I’m to the point of this being an existential threat like some are.

You do? What are they?

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Just now, Skoo said:

Such as?

Seems like with the DOJ and Senate in your pocket, you can pretty much get away with whatever you want.

But I am interested in what checks we have left.

Courts have been consistently rejecting some of the things he’s tried to do.  

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I may need to be out of this discussion - when I appear to be the “voice of reason” or dissension when it comes to Trump I think it’s best I bow out.  I think he’s the worst POTUS ever and a horrible human being - I have no interest spending any more time “defending” him.

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1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

Courts have been consistently rejecting some of the things he’s tried to do.  

Lower courts, yes. Did you not see what the SCOTUS just did with the injunctions against his anti-immigration policies? I mean the policies aimed at severely curtailing LEGAL immigration.

 

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1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

I may need to be out of this discussion - when I appear to be the “voice of reason” or dissension when it comes to Trump I think it’s best I bow out.  I think he’s the worst POTUS ever and a horrible human being - I have no interest spending any more time “defending” him.

I mean this with kindness, but what you call being the “voice of reason” I would characterize as Pollyanna-ish self-deception.

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12 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

It depends what your point is.

If your argument is "the way Sanders talks about this stuff will hurt his election prospects," I agree tha question isn't particularly relevant.

But your posts seem to be suggesting that Sanders actually wants to be some sort of left wing dictator.  If that's what you're suggesting, I think it's worth following up.  Because I've seen Bernie in dozens of speeches and debates talk about Denmark and the Nordic model, etc.  I've never once heard him affirmatively bring up Cuba or some Latin American country as something we should be emulating here.  

Exactly this.

 

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2 hours ago, Max Power said:

Bernie isn't making this easy on himself.

I guess when you can't explain how we're going to pay for one program, why not double down.  If you follow the Wealth Tax thread you'll see a recent study that showed over 50% of this tax will trickle down to middle class.  

Fortunately the myth that conservatives care about paying for legislation before passing it has been completely shattered with this administration/congress, so Bernie should waste zero energy worrying about critics who complain about deficit spending.  

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I'm still supporting Liz Warren and voted for her with my mail in ballot this weekend, but if Bernie continues his run and wins this thing, I'm looking forward to jumping on board and fully supporting his candidacy.

CHOO-CHOO!

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2 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

I would invite everyone to look into the literacy program a touch deeper.  It was literally (see what I did there?) a propaganda system.  It’s good that they taught people to read, but it was done using “reading materials” that explain the awesomeness of Castro’s revolution and systemic changes for Cuba.  It’s basically the same as Bible outreach literacy programs - teaching people to read by (and for the express purpose of) indoctrination.  

I tried to search online to find out more (I don't remember learning about the program before today) but I didn't come up with much negative.  In fact, most of what I read seems to support Bernie's view that the program was successful without much criticism.  

How bad was the propaganda in  Venceremos?  I'd like to learn about that.

(For the record, I'm not trying to argue, I'm honestly curious.)

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3 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

I tried to search online to find out more (I don't remember learning about the program before today) but I didn't come up with much negative.  In fact, most of what I read seems to support Bernie's view that the program was successful without much criticism.  

How bad was the propaganda in  Venceremos?  I'd like to learn about that.

(For the record, I'm not trying to argue, I'm honestly curious.)

http://lasa.international.pitt.edu/LASA98/Supko.pdf

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1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

It depends what your point is.

If your argument is "the way Sanders talks about this stuff will hurt his election prospects," I agree tha question isn't particularly relevant.

But your posts seem to be suggesting that Sanders actually wants to be some sort of left wing dictator.  If that's what you're suggesting, I think it's worth following up.  Because I've seen Bernie in dozens of speeches and debates talk about Denmark and the Nordic model, etc.  I've never once heard him affirmatively bring up Cuba or some Latin American country as something we should be emulating here.  

I don't mean to be a smartass, but isn't there some idea that dictators don't start out wanting to be dictators? 

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Just now, Sweet J said:

I don't mean to be a smartass, but isn't there some idea that dictators don't start out wanting to be dictators? 

If @IvanKaramazov wants to make the argument that Sanders doesn't want to be a dictator now, but he will if he becomes President, he can try.  That's not the way I read his posts though.  When IK says Bernie's spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes, or when he won't even acknowledge that Bernie wants to have the Nordic model in the United States rather than the Cuban model, that seems to me to be argument made in bad faith.

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1 minute ago, Juxtatarot said:

That paper largely conveys a positive view of the program.  

I'm trying not to give you a biased source.

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5 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If @IvanKaramazov wants to make the argument that Sanders doesn't want to be a dictator now, but he will if he becomes President, he can try.  That's not the way I read his posts though.  When IK says Bernie's spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes, or when he won't even acknowledge that Bernie wants to have the Nordic model in the United States rather than the Cuban model, that seems to me to be argument made in bad faith.

Why would he be required to take Bernie at his current word and not his last word, or the word prior, or his previous actions?  Just because you trust him doesn’t mean everybody should.

These are all well seasoned politicians with big money and staff behind them.  They aren’t choir boys.  They know how to play the political game.

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Just now, jonessed said:

Why would he be required to take Bernie at his current word and not his last word, or the word prior, or his previous actions?  Just because you trust him doesn’t mean everybody should.

These are all well seasoned politicians with big money and staff behind them.  They aren’t choir boys.  They know how to play the political game.

If he really believes Sanders wants to emulate Cuba he could have answered Redmond's question in that way.  

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Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If he really believes Sanders wants to emulate Cuba he could have answered Redmond's question in that way.  

:shrug:

I doubt he wants to emulate Cuba in its entirety, but based on his history, I think he would like to emulate more aspects of Cuba than he’s letting on.

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Just now, jonessed said:

:shrug:

I doubt he wants to emulate Cuba in its entirety, but based on his history, I think he would like to emulate more aspects of Cuba than he’s letting on.

What aspects of the Cuban government do you think he would like to emulate other than those shared by Nordic countries?

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2 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

What aspects of the Cuban government do you think he would like to emulate other than those shared by Nordic countries?

A more centralized control over education (primary, secondary, and higher).

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Just now, jonessed said:

A more centralized control over education (primary, secondary, and higher).

control over the curriculum or just make it more affordable?

 

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Just now, jonessed said:

A more centralized control over education (primary, secondary, and higher).

Where do you see the problem in that?

Personally I think it makes sense to have federal standards when it comes to education.

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Just now, jonessed said:

A more centralized control over education (primary, secondary, and higher).

I honestly have no idea how centralized the control over in education is in Nordic countries, so I can't really respond.  Thanks for answering though.

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Just now, Skoo said:

Where do you see the problem in that?

Personally I think it makes sense to have federal standards when it comes to education.

Some standards, sure.  Ironically, the Nordic model is a great example of the power of local control.

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3 minutes ago, urbanhack said:

control over the curriculum or just make it more affordable?

 

Both.

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21 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Why would he be required to take Bernie at his current word and not his last word, or the word prior, or his previous actions?  Just because you trust him doesn’t mean everybody should.

These are all well seasoned politicians with big money and staff behind them.  They aren’t choir boys.  They know how to play the political game.

There is a reason sanders chose "Democratic socialist" instead of "Nordic Model Enthusiast". There is a reason he started a PAC called "Our revolution". There is a reason he defends aspects of soviet style regimes. There is a reason he does nothing to curtail his crazed enthusiasts. There is a reason he trickled out his plan for large companies to begin turning over ownership to employees. 

And I don't think it is just that people are misunderstanding poor old bernie. 

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7 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

There is a reason sanders chose "Democratic socialist" instead of "Nordic Model Enthusiast". There is a reason he started a PAC called "Our revolution". There is a reason he defends aspects of soviet style regimes. There is a reason he does nothing to curtail his crazed enthusiasts. There is a reason he trickled out his plan for large companies to begin turning over ownership to employees. 

And I don't think it is just that people are misunderstanding poor old bernie. 

Well, don't leave us hanging, what's the reason?

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41 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

What aspects of the Cuban government do you think he would like to emulate other than those shared by Nordic countries?

Well, he specifically praised their indoctrination program.

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58 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If @IvanKaramazov wants to make the argument that Sanders doesn't want to be a dictator now, but he will if he becomes President, he can try.  That's not the way I read his posts though.  When IK says Bernie's spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes, or when he won't even acknowledge that Bernie wants to have the Nordic model in the United States rather than the Cuban model, that seems to me to be argument made in bad faith.

Why do you think Sanders has such a difficult time saying something like "Yeah, the Castro regime was pretty terrible" without adding a "but" and then going on to tell us about the great things they did?

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"Bernie doesn't actually want to recreate a Cuban-style communist totalitarianism in the US, he just has a weird romantic attachment to Cuban-style communist totalitarianism.  I mean, who doesn't?"

Edited by IvanKaramazov

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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Why do you think Sanders has such a difficult time saying something like "Yeah, the Castro regime was pretty terrible" without adding a "but" and then going on to tell us about the great things they did?

Because that's the way he feels about Cuba?

Why do you think he said what he said?

Seems like lots of people are claiming Sanders has some secret nefarious plot but I'm just not sure what that's supposed to be.

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Just now, Skoo said:

Because that's the way he feels about Cuba?

Why do you think he said what he said?

Seems like lots of people are claiming Sanders has some secret nefarious plot but I'm just not sure what that's supposed to be.

Thanks.  I don't think there's any nefarious plot here either.  I think Sanders says nice things about Castro because he likes Castro.  Lots of hard-left types from his generation hold that view.  

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3 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Thanks.  I don't think there's any nefarious plot here either.  I think Sanders says nice things about Castro because he likes Castro.  Lots of hard-left types from his generation hold that view.  

If there's no nefarious plot, what are we even talking about here?

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12 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Thanks.  I don't think there's any nefarious plot here either.  I think Sanders says nice things about Castro because he likes Castro.  Lots of hard-left types from his generation hold that view.  

I think that is true. And I think it is weird and short-sighted.

But I don't think it will drive his policy decisions or behaviors. So while I find it odd and distasteful, I don't see his odd emotional attachment to an authoritarian leader of another country as a risk factor.

That stands in contrast with a certain current President of the US.

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