Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
BigSteelThrill

Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being.

Recommended Posts

41 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

What aspects of the Cuban government do you think he would like to emulate other than those shared by Nordic countries?

Well, he specifically praised their indoctrination program.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If @IvanKaramazov wants to make the argument that Sanders doesn't want to be a dictator now, but he will if he becomes President, he can try.  That's not the way I read his posts though.  When IK says Bernie's spent his career apologizing for Soviet-style regimes, or when he won't even acknowledge that Bernie wants to have the Nordic model in the United States rather than the Cuban model, that seems to me to be argument made in bad faith.

Why do you think Sanders has such a difficult time saying something like "Yeah, the Castro regime was pretty terrible" without adding a "but" and then going on to tell us about the great things they did?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Bernie doesn't actually want to recreate a Cuban-style communist totalitarianism in the US, he just has a weird romantic attachment to Cuban-style communist totalitarianism.  I mean, who doesn't?"

Edited by IvanKaramazov

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Why do you think Sanders has such a difficult time saying something like "Yeah, the Castro regime was pretty terrible" without adding a "but" and then going on to tell us about the great things they did?

Because that's the way he feels about Cuba?

Why do you think he said what he said?

Seems like lots of people are claiming Sanders has some secret nefarious plot but I'm just not sure what that's supposed to be.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Skoo said:

Because that's the way he feels about Cuba?

Why do you think he said what he said?

Seems like lots of people are claiming Sanders has some secret nefarious plot but I'm just not sure what that's supposed to be.

Thanks.  I don't think there's any nefarious plot here either.  I think Sanders says nice things about Castro because he likes Castro.  Lots of hard-left types from his generation hold that view.  

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Thanks.  I don't think there's any nefarious plot here either.  I think Sanders says nice things about Castro because he likes Castro.  Lots of hard-left types from his generation hold that view.  

If there's no nefarious plot, what are we even talking about here?

  • Like 2
  • Thinking 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Thanks.  I don't think there's any nefarious plot here either.  I think Sanders says nice things about Castro because he likes Castro.  Lots of hard-left types from his generation hold that view.  

I think that is true. And I think it is weird and short-sighted.

But I don't think it will drive his policy decisions or behaviors. So while I find it odd and distasteful, I don't see his odd emotional attachment to an authoritarian leader of another country as a risk factor.

That stands in contrast with a certain current President of the US.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Why do you think Sanders has such a difficult time saying something like "Yeah, the Castro regime was pretty terrible" without adding a "but" and then going on to tell us about the great things they did?

I think the "but" part is because he thinks that bringing up Cuba and Castro is often meant as an implicit way to discredit anything that could be tied to any form of "socialism", democratic or otherwise. I think that sometimes is the case, but I also think he would benefit from being far more pointed in his criticism of places like Cuba and Venezuela. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bernie doesn't play golf.

We're saving $100 million right out of the gate.  :thumbup:

  • Like 3
  • Laughing 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If there's no nefarious plot, what are we even talking about here?

Lots of non-nefarious stuff gets brought up in elections. Opinions on Castro, for better or worse, seem to matter a lot in Florida. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if you're anti-Bernie, the big question you should be asking yourself is "How did he get here?"  I know the easy answer is that his supporters don't want to work/are lazy etc. etc........but is that it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn’t matter who wins the democratic nomination, but Bernie Sanders?

Are there a bunch of people who actually believe he’d make a good POTUS? Have we fallen that far as a nation? Unbelievable.

Edited by Football Jones
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Football Jones said:

It doesn’t matter who wins the democratic nomination, but Bernie Sanders?

Are there a bunch of people who actually believe he’d make a good POTUS? Have we fallen that far? Unbelievable.

Our current President is a reality TV star who never served a day in office before becoming POTUS.

And something like 60 million people voted for him, so there you go.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

Lots of non-nefarious stuff gets brought up in elections. Opinions on Castro, for better or worse, seem to matter a lot in Florida. 

Yeah, I acknowledged the electability angle earlier.  Some posters seem to be taking it a step further to suggest that Bernie actually wants to do here what Castro did in Cuba.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Skoo said:

Our current President is a reality TV star who never served a day in office before becoming POTUS.

And something like 60 million people voted for him, so there you go.

Don't forget his history of business failures, being banned from running a charity for misappropriation of funds, and like six other things that alone ought to have been disqualifying.

Sanders is a bit to the left of me, but he has been a Senator for 40 years. Before that, he was a mayor. He is capable of giving detailed and nuanced answers to difficult questions. I may not always agree with his viewpoint, but he is massively qualified compared to the incumbent.

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Don't forget his history of business failures, being banned from running a charity for misappropriation of funds, and like six other things that alone ought to have been disqualifying.

Sanders is a bit to the left of me, but he has been a Senator for 40 years. Before that, he was a mayor. He is capable of giving detailed and nuanced answers to difficult questions. I may not always agree with his viewpoint, but he is massively qualified compared to the incumbent.

It's kind of funny to see people squirm on the topic.

They know they've been told Bernie is super-extreme and out of his mind, but they have a tougher time when it gets down to actual specifics.

I mean Trump said he'd build a wall and Mexico would pay for it.

But Bernie's the crazy one with all of his impossible proposals!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Skoo said:

It's kind of funny to see people squirm on the topic.

They know they've been told Bernie is super-extreme and out of his mind, but they have a tougher time when it gets down to actual specifics.

I mean Trump said he'd build a wall and Mexico would pay for it.

But Bernie's the crazy one with all of his impossible proposals!

I relate to those feelings. Four years ago I was massively anti-Trump, and only slightly less anti-Sanders.

Then something weird happened: I started to really examine the problems that Sanders is talking about in an evidence-based way. And I came to the conclusion that I wasn't being very logical. So I watched some longer form interviews with him and really listened to what he had to say (and what he didn't). And now I would call myself a moderately energized supporter.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I guess to make a broader point, so often in the past there's been a sharp division between left and right, between capitalist and communist or socialist. And especially in the Americas, that's been a big debate, right? Oh, you know, you're a capitalist Yankee dog, and oh, you know, you're some crazy communist that's going to take away everybody's property. And I mean, those are interesting intellectual arguments, but I think for your generation, you should be practical and just choose from what works. You don't have to worry about whether it neatly fits into socialist theory or capitalist theory -- you should just decide what works.

And I said this to President Castro in Cuba. I said, look, you've made great progress in educating young people. Every child in Cuba gets a basic education -- that's a huge improvement from where it was. Medical care -- the life expectancy of Cubans is equivalent to the United States, despite it being a very poor country, because they have access to health care. That's a huge achievement. They should be congratulated. But you drive around Havana and you say this economy is not working. It looks like it did in the 1950s. And so you have to be practical in asking yourself how can you achieve the goals of equality and inclusion, but also recognize that the market system produces a lot of wealth and goods and services. And it also gives individuals freedom because they have initiative.

And so you don't have to be rigid in saying it’s either this or that, you can say -- depending on the problem you're trying to solve, depending on the social issues that you're trying to address what works. And I think that what you’ll find is that the most successful societies, the most successful economies are ones that are rooted in a market-based system, but also recognize that a market does not work by itself. It has to have a social and moral and ethical and community basis, and there has to be inclusion. Otherwise it’s not stable.

And it’s up to you -- whether you're in business or in academia or the nonprofit sector, whatever you're doing -- to create new forms that are adapted to the new conditions that we live in today.

Any guesses as to who said this and when?

Barack Obama, 2016

Edited by mcintyre1
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Football Jones said:

It doesn’t matter who wins the democratic nomination, but Bernie Sanders?

Are there a bunch of people who actually believe he’d make a good POTUS? Have we fallen that far as a nation? Unbelievable.

Yea..what a crazy concept to govern and make legislation for the working and middle class people instead of doing it for the last 40 years for corporations and special interests.  

Isn't that why Trump got elected?  "Economic anxiety" from the working and middle class, no?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RL, terrific post.  Sometimes, we all need to stop.  Breathe.  And use reason and logic to assess the candidates.  Some, many or most of the people on this site are intelligent and use reason as the basis for decision making.  Almost ANYONE is more qualified than trump.

  • Like 1
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

I think if you're anti-Bernie, the big question you should be asking yourself is "How did he get here?"  I know the easy answer is that his supporters don't want to work/are lazy etc. etc........but is that it?

It's only the easy answer because it's a dumb answer.  I think the problem is people are tired of working their asses off for years and getting nowhere while the rich get richer.  They are tired of being one health issue away from being bankrupt and possibly homeless.  They are tired of going 10's of thousands of dollars in to debt to try and make a better life for themselves and their family.  I know very few people who legitimately are just lazy and tired of working and just want #### for free.  It's a straw man.

  • Like 3
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

Hitler?

Only if that's the H in Barack H Obama. ;)

  • Like 2
  • Laughing 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Football Jones said:

It doesn’t matter who wins the democratic nomination, but Bernie Sanders?

Are there a bunch of people who actually believe he’d make a good POTUS? Have we fallen that far as a nation? Unbelievable.

been asleep for 40 months?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Football Jones said:

It doesn’t matter who wins the democratic nomination, but Bernie Sanders?

Are there a bunch of people who actually believe he’d make a good POTUS? Have we fallen that far as a nation? Unbelievable.

Yes and better than out current POTUS.

We fell as a nation the moment Trump won the GOP primary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

I relate to those feelings. Four years ago I was massively anti-Trump, and only slightly less anti-Sanders.

Then something weird happened: I started to really examine the problems that Sanders is talking about in an evidence-based way. And I came to the conclusion that I wasn't being very logical. So I watched some longer form interviews with him and really listened to what he had to say (and what he didn't). And now I would call myself a moderately energized supporter.

This is a good point. I voted for him in the 2016 primary so I've been on board for a while but coming to message boards like this and seeing people act like he's completely insane or something is kind of baffling to me.

Maybe you don't agree with his policies, but they are pretty clear: It's time to help the middle and lower classes instead of the top 1%.

That message should and has hit home with a lot of people. And that's of course because it's entirely true. The current system is rigged against us normal folk.

  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Totally different, this was talking about Raul, not Fidel.

And we're not supporting Obama for the candidacy in 2020 anyway. Politics often relies so very much on optics.

 

The best way to answer is by rallying around Sanders' platform while conceding it's not the best look (which I know you've done). His policy truly is something to believe in.

Edited by hagmania
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, hagmania said:

The best way to answer is by rallying around Sanders' platform while conceding it's not the best look (which I know you've done). His policy truly is something to believe in.

Well, technically I'm still on Team Warren for about another week or two until she drops out.  But after that I'm all in on Bernie.

Edited by fatguyinalittlecoat
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Well, technically I'm still on Team Warren for about another week or two until she drops out.  But after that I'm all in on Bernie.

We can be on multiple teams at once imo. I get heat for it, but I support Pete Buttigieg and Amy Klobuchar almost as much as I do Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Totally different, this was talking about Raul, not Fidel.

The education and medical systems he praised and congratulated them for were from Fidel, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I say this as a person who moderately likes Bernie and will happily vote for him in the general election:

 

The slapfighting on the internets between the rabidly pro-Bernie folks and the rabidly anti-Bernie folks reminds me of the idiots who worked themselves into a froth arguing over whether the 8th installment of Star Wars was better than the 9th installment of Star Wars (I may have been the only person on the planet that liked both movies). 

 

IMPORTANT EDIT:  I'm not saying either pro-Bernie or anti-Bernie folks are idiots.  I guess I'm saying that people who argue on the internet about Star Wars are generally idiots, but I probably don't really mean that, either.  It's just sounds fun to say. 

Edited by Sweet J
  • Like 3
  • Thinking 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

I say this as a person who moderately likes Bernie and will happily vote for him in the general election:

 

The slapfighting on the internets between the rabidly pro-Bernie folks and the rabidly anti-Bernie folks reminds me of the idiots who worked themselves into a froth arguing over whether the 8th installment of Star Wars was better than the 9th installment of Star Wars (I may have been the only person on the planet that liked both movies). 

Obviously 9th and you're an idiot like the anti-Bernie people if you say otherwise!

 

ETA:  this is a joke btw   :noban:

Edited by AAABatteries
  • Laughing 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

I say this as a person who moderately likes Bernie and will happily vote for him in the general election:

 

The slapfighting on the internets between the rabidly pro-Bernie folks and the rabidly anti-Bernie folks reminds me of the idiots who worked themselves into a froth arguing over whether the 8th installment of Star Wars was better than the 9th installment of Star Wars (I may have been the only person on the planet that liked both movies). 

 

IMPORTANT EDIT:  I'm not saying either pro-Bernie or anti-Bernie folks are idiots.  I guess I'm saying that people who argue on the internet about Star Wars are generally idiots, but I probably don't really mean that, either.  It's just sounds fun to say. 

Yeah, you're probably right -- I'm just still riled up from an unexpectedly good Nevada result. I'll probably slink back into the shadows in another day or two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mcintyre1 said:

Yeah, you're probably right -- I'm just still riled up from an unexpectedly good Nevada result. I'll probably slink back into the shadows in another day or two.

UNTIL BERNIE WINS SOUTH CAROLINA

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, mcintyre1 said:

Yeah, you're probably right -- I'm just still riled up from an unexpectedly good Nevada result. I'll probably slink back into the shadows in another day or two.

The more time that goes on, the more fired up I am about getting on the Bernie train.  I like his ideas.  I like him.  He's a good guy.  I'm a little afraid he'll be demonized by the right, but EVERYONE coming out from the Dem side is flawed (as a candidate) in some way.  I don't think Bernie is any more flawed (as a candidate) than the others. 

And I've been saying this for a year now:  Bernie will appeal to the same rust belt working class white voters that Trump stole from Obama (and before that, Clinton).  At heart, I think Bernie comes across as the populist that Trump pretends to be. 

And I HATE that when I see anti-Bernie stuff on my facebook feed from my "liberal" friends, I feel compelled to correct or argue, Bernie-bro style.  I'm trying to be respectful.  For example, I haven't called Bloomberg trash once in my responses.  Even though he's . . . well, trash (I say this as someone who would vote for Bloomberg over Trump). 

  • Like 4
  • Love 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, hagmania said:

UNTIL BERNIE WINS SOUTH CAROLINA

I'm convinced Bernie pulls ahead.  I'm terrified that Clinton dems will get cold feet or buy into the Bloomberg narrative that Bernie can't win, and try and contest the convention. Good grief. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Meh - Hitler, Obama - same difference.  Amirite @HellToupee?

You’ve got the wrong guy . In 2008 I voted Obama but went with Mittens McCain in 2012. I do think he was a disappointment but not horrible.

When someone compares a pol they do t like to Hitler all it does is show how ignorant they are to history

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are a couple articles about the reality of our society currently. If you view either of these things as upsetting, and I think you should, then you should ask yourself:

Which candidate for President might actually care enough about these issues to do something about them?

The Most Expensive (and Rampant) Category of Crime in the US

Prosecutions Fall Despite a "Crime Wave" (note that the American Interest isn't exactly Mother Jones, it is a center-right publication)

  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, mcintyre1 said:

Any guesses as to who said this and when?

Barack Obama, 2016

This is a good framing by O, but it is pretty different than what Sanders does.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Skoo said:

It's kind of funny to see people squirm on the topic.

They know they've been told Bernie is super-extreme and out of his mind, but they have a tougher time when it gets down to actual specifics.

I mean Trump said he'd build a wall and Mexico would pay for it.

But Bernie's the crazy one with all of his impossible proposals!

Is it comforting that his proposals aren’t as crazy as Trump’s? Keeping in mind that we now have a space force?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe others can help me figure out what vetting Bernie hasn't gone through yet that would significantly change anyone's view of him.  The guy went H2H against Hillary in a closer than expected primary.  When it comes to digging up dirt and winning an election she can be pretty ruthless.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, beef said:

Maybe others can help me figure out what vetting Bernie hasn't gone through yet that would significantly change anyone's view of him.  The guy went H2H against Hillary in a closer than expected primary.  When it comes to digging up dirt and winning an election she can be pretty ruthless.  

There's stuff from his past that can be effectively spun negatively. Sanders's struggles in early adulthood, his personal financial situation now, statements (out of context or otherwise) in support of socialist ideas/policies over the course of his career, being a career politician. I don't think HRC really hit him as hard on that stuff as they could have. The RNC will make the most they can out of those things. Unlike HRC however there hasn't been 25 years of unrelenting hate directed Sanders's way by the RNC, so there's less resistance/bad will to him baked in to the electorate.

I think Sanders will  bear up if subjected to that scrutiny. He's cagey, he's tough, and he doesn't back down. A rhetoric battle between him and Trump will be fascinating to witness. Neither he or Trump are conventional in terms of the way they conduct themselves on the podium, either solo or in a debate setting. Both do the angry old guy schtick pretty well. I think a differentiating factor is that Sanders seems less prone to rambling than Trump. I think Sanders has an advantage there, if Trump leaves an opening, Bernie will land a counter. HRC would sometimes leave that kind of stuff on the table, or respond too slowly, typical politician speaking tactics, measured over opportunistic. 

Edited by Gr00vus
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

There's stuff from his past that can be effectively spun negatively. Sanders's struggles in early adulthood, his personal financial situation now, statements (out of context or otherwise) in support of socialist ideas/policies over the course of his career, being a career politician. I don't think HRC really hit him as hard on that stuff as they could have. The RNC will make the most they can out of those things. Unlike HRC however there hasn't been 25 years of unrelenting hate directed Sanders's way by the RNC, so there's less resistance/bad will to him baked in to the electorate.

I think Sanders will  bear up if subjected to that scrutiny. He's cagey, he's tough, and he doesn't back down. A rhetoric battle between him and Trump will be fascinating to witness. Neither he or Trump are conventional in terms of the way they conduct themselves on the podium, either solo or in a debate setting. Both do the angry old guy schtick pretty well. I think a differentiating factor is that Sanders seems less prone to rambling than Trump. I think Sanders has an advantage there, if Trump leaves an opening, Bernie will land a counter. HRC would sometimes leave that kind of stuff on the table, or respond too slowly, typical politician speaking tactics, measured over opportunistic. 

I watched two long form interviews with him yesterday. He will occasionally do tangents, but only relevant ones. He has command of facts and figures that have an impact. Overall, he does well in a situation where the interviewer is actually seeking real answers and to understand him. I don't know how he does when the interviewer is looking to play gotcha or manufacture dumb soundbites. I'd imagine less well, but that is probably true of everybody.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sweet J said:

I'm a little afraid he'll be demonized by the right 

My goodness, only a little?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

I watched two long form interviews with him yesterday. He will occasionally do tangents, but only relevant ones. He has command of facts and figures that have an impact. Overall, he does well in a situation where the interviewer is actually seeking real answers and to understand him. I don't know how he does when the interviewer is looking to play gotcha or manufacture dumb soundbites. I'd imagine less well, but that is probably true of everybody.

From what I've seen, Sanders tends to reiterate his position on whatever point is most relevant to the line of questioning. His consistency on his positions over time lends him a bit of an advantage there as there aren't many times he's contradicted himself, which is one less attack vector to explore. It also helps because a "gotcha" question is just going to lead him back into territory he's tread many times, the same way, over the course of his career. Generally he's not going to talk his way into an unfamiliar position - his principles kind of ground him. Either you like those or you don't, and if you don't then you attack on that basis, but it's tough to "trick" him. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sweet J said:

(I may have been the only person on the planet that liked both movies). 

Okay, I hate you now.  Sorry, GB.

  • Thanks 1
  • Laughing 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.