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Bernie Sanders HQ! *A decent human being. (1 Viewer)

Exactly. Worst case scenario we get a few expensive (compromised) programs that don’t really work. Certainly wouldn’t be the first time that’s ever happened an certainly wouldn’t be the end of capitalism in America
Worst case scenario is Sanders gets elected...Dems get a super majority...have another intraparty moderate/progressive fight for two years...use all their political capital on Bernie's pet issue Med4All...the political pendulum swings wildly back to the right...giving birth to the Tea Party 2.0 in 2022...which then takes political partisanship to even greater heights...the country spirals even further into debt...meanwhile nothing gets done about climate change or other major issues...the country then enters into another ten-year round of political gridlock.

In fact that may not even be the worst case scenario...it may be the most likely one.

 
Worst case scenario is Sanders gets elected...Dems get a super majority...have another intraparty moderate/progressive fight for two years...use all their political capital on Bernie's pet issue Med4All...the political pendulum swings wildly back to the right...giving birth to the Tea Party 2.0 in 2022...which then takes political partisanship to even greater heights...the country spirals even further into debt...meanwhile nothing gets done about climate change or other major issues...the country then enters into another ten-year round of political gridlock.

In fact that may not even be the worst case scenario...it may be the most likely one.
I would say worse case scenario is Sanders is elected and does whatever he wants since it has now been determined that the POTUS has unlimited and unchecked power.

 
Worst case scenario is Sanders gets elected...Dems get a super majority...have another intraparty moderate/progressive fight for two years...use all their political capital on Bernie's pet issue Med4All...the political pendulum swings wildly back to the right...giving birth to the Tea Party 2.0 in 2022...which then takes political partisanship to even greater heights...the country spirals even further into debt...meanwhile nothing gets done about climate change or other major issues...the country then enters into another ten-year round of political gridlock.

In fact that may not even be the worst case scenario...it may be the most likely one.
Most of that could be argued (with minor variations) to happen no matter who gets elected (or re-elected).  And the bolded is certainly the path we’ve been on almost certain to happen unless a major shift takes place.  

 
Most of that could be argued (with minor variations) to happen no matter who gets elected (or re-elected).  And the bolded is certainly the path we’ve been on almost certain to happen unless a major shift takes place.  
I respectfully disagree. Odds increase the further left you go. Much less likely if one of the moderates is elected and begins passing low-hanging fruit legislation with moderate Republicans. Eliminate dysfunctionality, establish a working relationship, build from there.

 
I respectfully disagree. Odds increase the further left you go. Much less likely if one of the moderates is elected and begins passing low-hanging fruit legislation with moderate Republicans. Eliminate dysfunctionality, establish a working relationship, build from there.
I agree with your “further left you go” statement and I applaud your optimism on the moderates working together. Being a centrist myself it’s what I’ve always hoped for and preached could happen, unfortunately I’m having a very hard time seeing a path to that right now.  I see no indications from the GOP that should a moderate be elected they won’t be anything but obstructionist, as they largely were with Obama. Both parties seem far more interested in blocking the other and “winning” then finding paths to working together.  

I supported Obama’s first term largely because of his platform of change, I felt we were highly divided then (oh how little did I know of what was to come) and was really hopeful he could be the one to bridge the division. Clearly that crashed and burned. I see no one in the field today to bolster my optimism.   

I very much hope I’m wrong and you’re right though.  

 
Honestly even if he had a super majority I'm as worried about the Dems not working with him as I am the GOP
For me I'm fine with this result. I'm fine with nothing getting done with him as Pres. For me, getting him into the presidency is the most important issue. I just want to see that yes, given enough massive amounts of unsatisfied voters frustrated by the current political system, that a grassroots movement can succeed AND win. Even if that means scrapping (or said candidate trying to scrap) this false holy grail of capitalism (which again is failing us in almost every sense right now). It shows we're not hopelessly locked into a system where the mechanisms of power are controlled by an extremely select few at the top.

Then at that point, if those in government want to go against the will of the people who voted said individual in, they can do so at their own political and career risk.

 
 Even if that means scrapping (or said candidate trying to scrap) this false holy grail of capitalism (which again is failing us in almost every sense right now).
I don't know, Shamrock. It seems like one can give one's self a hernia trying to separate the Constitution and its life, liberty, and property from capitalism. It's a capitalist document from the get-go. 

 
I don't know, Shamrock. It seems like one can give one's self a hernia trying to separate the Constitution and its life, liberty, and property from capitalism. It's a capitalist document from the get-go. 
Sure. But again, at the end of the day it's a "capitalist document", a system, that 250 years later, is no longer efficient for 90+% of people living here. If you want to stick up for it go ahead. But it simply doesn't work anymore.

 
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Sure. But again, at the end of the day it's a "capitalist document",a system, that 250 years later, is no longer efficient for 90+% of people living here. If you want to stick up for it go ahead. But it simply doesn't work anymore.
I'd say careful what you wish for is all. Leisure time is no longer your time under socialism. Consumer culture? For and about the state. A lot of things change when the means of production are owned by society and centrally planned and directed. 

 
Klobuchar's prescription drug plans and public option
Sanders would approve either of these if they came across his desk IMO. He’s a single payer guy through and through but if you look at his voting record on healthcare it’s clear that he also takes incremental wins wherever he can get them. I think we’d see a lot of that with a Sanders presidency since both houses of congress would undoubtedly be to his right.

 
I respectfully disagree. Odds increase the further left you go. Much less likely if one of the moderates is elected and begins passing low-hanging fruit legislation with moderate Republicans. Eliminate dysfunctionality, establish a working relationship, build from there.
This completely ignores recent history. The Democrats have been pushing this narrative as they lost everything with it. And what moderate Republicans?

 
Ah, that's what you mean. I agree. There are policies he'd probably like to pass but won't be able to due to normal checks and balances. That doesn't make him a capitalist -- and indeed he'll still be a socialist -- but the policies pushed and passed will look like social democracy. 
We already have social democracy, it just favors corporations, it never stops amazing me how many people are blind to this.  I would rather bail out poor people than banks but somehow subsidizing banks and corporations not socialist but providing for citizens socialist.  Really insane.

 
We already have social democracy, it just favors corporations, it never stops amazing me how many people are blind to this.  I would rather bail out poor people than banks but somehow subsidizing banks and corporations not socialist but providing for citizens socialist.  Really insane.
I do think it is insane that we provide public subsidization for banks and corporations and they reap the profit at the public teat. It's ridiculous, and has been for a long time, most evidenced in 2007/8 with the bailouts. 

 
I do think it is insane that we provide public subsidization for banks and corporations and they reap the profit at the public teat. It's ridiculous, and has been for a long time, most evidenced in 2007/8 with the bailouts. 
Yet no one yells socialism about that or the 5 trillion evaporated because of the banks.  Yet, with healthcare, they scream from the rooftops, really odd to me.  

 
I'm coming around to the opinion that Bernie is one of the better candidates head-to-head against Trump.  People generally like him and believe him to be honest.  What votes he'll lose by being too "socialist" he'll get back in enthusiasm from his base. 
But will that happen in the right states? That's the part I struggle with.

 
So huge issue with the app the DNC decided to beta test tonight. Never fear Bernie had an app as well and since Robbue Mook had nothing to do with it, it works. They have every tally from every site. Any discrepancy will be challenged vociferously. 

 
So huge issue with the app the DNC decided to beta test tonight. Never fear Bernie had an app as well and since Robbue Mook had nothing to do with it, it works. They have every tally from every site. Any discrepancy will be challenged vociferously. 
He's been one step ahead of the machine this entire campaign. He learned a lot about the establishment's methods 4 years ago.

 
So huge issue with the app the DNC decided to beta test tonight. Never fear Bernie had an app as well and since Robbue Mook had nothing to do with it, it works. They have every tally from every site. Any discrepancy will be challenged vociferously. 
Any link for this? 

 
You can't be serious. I've held my tongue but that's insane. That's so negligent as to rise to malfeasance. 
The thing is when Microsoft did some tech for recording caucus totals we knew months ahead of time. This was announced days ago. The whole thing has been a mess. But like I said Bernie has an app for that so we will get the right numbers. And from what I've read Bernie's campaign is meeting with the people running this thing right now.

 
So huge issue with the app the DNC decided to beta test tonight. Never fear Bernie had an app as well and since Robbue Mook had nothing to do with it, it works. They have every tally from every site. Any discrepancy will be challenged vociferously. 
It’s not a conspiracy IMO but it’s terrible bad luck for Bernie. It sure sounds to me like he was the clear winner tonight, but now he’s not going to get his winning speech. Its lost in the confusion. 

 
It’s not a conspiracy IMO but it’s terrible bad luck for Bernie. It sure sounds to me like he was the clear winner tonight, but now he’s not going to get his winning speech. Its lost in the confusion. 
If there's one thing I'm not worried about, it's the enthusiasm of Bernie's base. Those outside his base, as has been pointed out many times here, already thoroughly know his talking points.

 
It should also be remembered Bernie campaigned for and won paper ballots after last time as well. So there is a paper trail. I think this was just abject stupidity in action more than a sinister plot. If it was a plot then we got nothing to worry about because they suck at plotting.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
His proposals don’t seem any further left than the left-wing parties in Europe.
And his healthcare and education proposals are extensions of already established and working initiatives.  Now, some of the other things like loan forgiveness etc...those things can be argued but I haven't seen one of them that can't be paid for by simply cutting back on the number of F35s we buy in a given year.

 
And I'll say this....I really believe Bernie is the best shot of getting a public option.  I know he wants more, but if that's what he can get, he'll absolutely jump on it.  

 
And his healthcare and education proposals are extensions of already established and working initiatives.  Now, some of the other things like loan forgiveness etc...those things can be argued but I haven't seen one of them that can't be paid for by simply cutting back on the number of F35s we buy in a given year.
I must be misunderstanding the bolded part of your post. Bernie's M4A plan would add much more annual Federal spending on healthcare than the entire annual DoD budget.

 
I must be misunderstanding the bolded part of your post. Bernie's M4A plan would add much more annual Federal spending on healthcare than the entire annual DoD budget.
Yes...the bold part is in reference to programs like loan forgiveness and the like.  Though, I think the expansion of education could probably be included, I separated it and M4A out.

 
So we are still waiting for final results. Currently Pete has a slight edge in delegates while Bernie is winning the vote count. Here's the problem for Pete's lead. The rest of the numbers will be mostly coming from largely minority areas. Pete has a problem with POC and Bernie not so much. Given that lack of support it seems unlikely those numbers are going to go his way. And from what is being said the Bernie campaign expects to overtake Pete when all is said and done. That seems to be based on their own numbers from the caucus sites but we'll see.

 
Just Win Baby said:
I must be misunderstanding the bolded part of your post. Bernie's M4A plan would add much more annual Federal spending on healthcare than the entire annual DoD budget.
We already spend over a trillion a year on healthcare so it already does. Well at least the published part.

 
NCCommish said:
So we are still waiting for final results. Currently Pete has a slight edge in delegates while Bernie is winning the vote count. Here's the problem for Pete's lead. The rest of the numbers will be mostly coming from largely minority areas. Pete has a problem with POC and Bernie not so much. Given that lack of support it seems unlikely those numbers are going to go his way. And from what is being said the Bernie campaign expects to overtake Pete when all is said and done. That seems to be based on their own numbers from the caucus sites but we'll see.
A quick Google search:

Iowa Demographics

White: 90.28% Black or African American: 3.51% Asian: 2.40% Two or more races: 2.10% Aug 28, 2019

I wonder if that will be enough.

 
NCCommish said:
So we are still waiting for final results. Currently Pete has a slight edge in delegates while Bernie is winning the vote count. Here's the problem for Pete's lead. The rest of the numbers will be mostly coming from largely minority areas. Pete has a problem with POC and Bernie not so much. Given that lack of support it seems unlikely those numbers are going to go his way. And from what is being said the Bernie campaign expects to overtake Pete when all is said and done. That seems to be based on their own numbers from the caucus sites but we'll see.
I’m happy either way - they are my top 2 candidates.*
 

*for different reasons of course

 
A quick Google search:

Iowa Demographics

White: 90.28% Black or African American: 3.51% Asian: 2.40% Two or more races: 2.10% Aug 28, 2019

I wonder if that will be enough.
Even if they are largely white areas, yes it will be more concentrated minorities, but also, it's a lot of the college towns. Youth, where Sanders has a large advantage.

 
This is just an awesome picture...

Sophie Lasoff @sophielasoff

literally never clap at me about bernie bros again 

if you do I will spam you with photos of the thousands of first time, bilingual caucus goers who went overwhelming for Bernie yesterday

 
And M4A would require spending additional trillions per year with no clear plan for funding all of the additional cost. 

What’s your point?
Actually even Heritage said M4A would save us money over the long term. We pay twice as much as any other developed country perr capita on healthcare and people are dying because they can't afford it. I just got my new insurance offer from my company. I would have to spend, between premiums and copays, over 11k before I was totally covered. It's basically only for catastrophic care. So I guess that's my point.

 
Actually even Heritage said M4A would save us money over the long term. We pay twice as much as any other developed country perr capita on healthcare and people are dying because they can't afford it. I just got my new insurance offer from my company. I would have to spend, between premiums and copays, over 11k before I was totally covered. It's basically only for catastrophic care. So I guess that's my point.
This is going to be a tough row to hoe. Even my Dem friends don't understand how single payer could work and save us hundreds of billions. It's like they can't put the math together in their heads. We won't get Republicans to understand until most of the current generations of GOP voters are gone.

 
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Actually even Heritage said M4A would save us money over the long term. We pay twice as much as any other developed country perr capita on healthcare and people are dying because they can't afford it. I just got my new insurance offer from my company. I would have to spend, between premiums and copays, over 11k before I was totally covered. It's basically only for catastrophic care. So I guess that's my point.
Bernie's version of M4A would be implementing universal healthcare on an unprecedented scale. I am skeptical that anyone can say with certainty that it would save significant money over the long term. There are so many interdependent factors that any such analysis is based on a large number of assumptions that might not prove out.

But that is the spending side. To date, no one has shown how to pay for M4A. Bernie offered a plan that only covers roughly half of the increased federal spending. The only remaining recourse would be to have individual taxpayers and businesses pay enough additional taxes as to generate billions of dollars in increased tax revenue. IMO no politician advocating for M4A, including Bernie, puts forth an actual comprehensive plan because any such plan would be so unappealing to voters that it would sabotage their campaign.

 
Bernie's version of M4A would be implementing universal healthcare on an unprecedented scale. I am skeptical that anyone can say with certainty that it would save significant money over the long term. There are so many interdependent factors that any such analysis is based on a large number of assumptions that might not prove out.

But that is the spending side. To date, no one has shown how to pay for M4A. Bernie offered a plan that only covers roughly half of the increased federal spending. The only remaining recourse would be to have individual taxpayers and businesses pay enough additional taxes as to generate billions of dollars in increased tax revenue. IMO no politician advocating for M4A, including Bernie, puts forth an actual comprehensive plan because any such plan would be so unappealing to voters that it would sabotage their campaign.
Higher taxes are worth it if we get good services. Spread the word.

 

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