What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Attempts to clear up my beliefs on Christianity (1 Viewer)

Jayrod

Jayrod

Footballguy
I'm sure this will devolve into rabbit trails and bitter debates at some point, but I would like to do my best to clear up some misconceptions that I see often around these parts regarding Christianity.  Things that pop up in threads regularly that just make me shake my head.  Often times that particular thread has its purposes and I don't wish to start a tangent and other times I just can't help myself and end up regretting I ever got into it.  Maybe this will end up like that, but I'm attempting to do this in a much more controlled and less antagonistic way (although the very nature of the topic will likely end up with some "agree to disagree" conclusions).

Anyway, please keep things civil in here and lets keep fishing to a minimum, mmmkay thanks.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The first one that I'd like to address (one that I saw today), is the idea that God always exercises his will/plan over our lives.

I believe the Bible makes it clear that God does not exercise control over everything that goes on in this life.  The primary thing that comes to mind is found in what we call "the Lord's prayer."  This is a passage found in Matthew 6 where Jesus is teaching his disciples to pray.  Here Jesus says, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."  From this verse I think 2 things are clear: God's will is not always done on earth, but it is in heaven.

Also, another verse that comes to mind along these lines is 2 Peter 3:9 where Peter writes that God is, "not wishing for anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance."  But as the Bible indicates, not everyone will come to repent and follow Jesus.  Clearly, this is an instance where God wants something to happen that doesn't always happen.

And another, Old Testament, example is found in Job where God gives Satan permission to effect some of the people and things around Job, but limits what happens.  I think this is the best example as it is clear that God is allowing, but not directing the events.  Satan is a created being and the ideas/concepts behind his creation and his ultimate role in our lives and God's plans is very difficult, if not impossible to grasp...but that is another topic really.

I think the confusion/difficulty comes in the concepts of God's timelessness, omniscience (all-knowing) and the fact that He created the whole thing.  So while there are problems, they are problems with what He created and that He knew would happen when He created it.  I believe this truth is also something greater and beyond all of this life that goes beyond our 80 or so years alive in this world.  But, in conclusion, to say that everything that happens to us is "part of God's plan" is incorrect on a basic level.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jayrod said:
I'm sure this will devolve into rabbit trails and bitter debates at some point, but I would like to do my best to clear up some misconceptions that I see often around these parts regarding Christianity.  Things that pop up in threads regularly that just make me shake my head.  Often times that particular thread has its purposes and I don't wish to start a tangent and other times I just can't help myself and end up regretting I ever got into it.  Maybe this will end up like that, but I'm attempting to do this in a much more controlled and less antagonistic way (although the very nature of the topic will likely end up with some "agree to disagree" conclusions).

Anyway, please keep things civil in here and lets keep fishing to a minimum, mmmkay thanks.
Click to expand...
Is it true Christians living here care more about Israel than USA?

 
urbanhack said:
Why would you care what anyone else thinks if you are secure in your own beliefs?
Click to expand...
Because I care about them.  I think the truth is important to everyone.  If you are making decisions in your life on a lie, wouldn't you want to know that?

 
Why is God going to make me go to hell just because I don't believe in him?  Why isn't it enough that I am a good person?

 
Jayrod said:
  So while there are problems, they are problems with what He created and that He knew would happen when He created it. 
Click to expand...
This makes sense. Whenever I'm ready to play a pick-up basketball game or some racquetball, I'll make sure I mention that my knee has been acting up just in case I lose. Having a built-in excuse ahead of time is pretty handy. "Well, I knew I'd have trouble with my jumper, so it's all good."

 
Here we are on the precipice of learning the truths surrounding Christianity, and the clown parade is cracking jokes. I thought I was going to learn about some cool stuff like Xenu.

 
How do you clear up a book (that is the basis for your truth) that is filled with stuff that just doesnt make sense.

Even the basis of that book (the Catholic church and their councils) have had to recant their own teachings as science (and basic understandings) proved them false.

Oh yeah... I'm christian with a full belief in God.  The Bible and religion are a different thing though. I also don't push my beliefs on others.

 
lakerstan said:
Why is God going to make me go to hell just because I don't believe in him?  Why isn't it enough that I am a good person?
Click to expand...
Most people -- Christian and non-Christian alike -- don't realize that the premise behind your first question isn't shared by all Christians.  The Catholic church no less has endorsed the idea of "anonymous Christians" who, in essence, accept Jesus even if they don't realize that they're doing so.  In other words, that isn't some weird or fringe position.  

The more immediate issue though is with your second question.  You're not a good person.  At least not according to Christianity.  One of the absolute, bedrock principles behind Christianity is that everybody is "bad" in some very deep fundamental respect and therefore doesn't deserve salvation.  This is one of those things that absolutely rings true to me, and it's a big part of the reason why I think Christianity makes particular sense relative to other religious traditions, with the usual caveat that nobody necessarily has a monopoly on truth, etc.    

 
That Abortion is a sin.

The vast majority of Christian Theologians did not believe life began at conception.  Saint Augustine said, "it can not be said that is a living soul in a body not yet endowed with the senses.".  Thomas Aquinas said, "before the body has organs in any way whatsoever it can not be receptive to the soul.".  Based on Genesis 2:7 life does not being until birth and breath through the nostrils.  

 
I'm just going to say like the Novena thread this is admirable. Theology, philosophy and ideology should be discussed broadly. Having said that I'm not sure this board is up to it.

 
I know a guy who converted from Catholicism to Russian orthodoxy.

That for me when I see him is a throw the gloves off six beer conversation.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jayrod said:
The first one that I'd like to address (one that I saw today), is the idea that God always exercises his will/plan over our lives.

I believe the Bible makes it clear that God does not exercise control over everything that goes on in this life.  The primary thing that comes to mind is found in what we call "the Lord's prayer."  This is a passage found in Matthew 6 where Jesus is teaching his disciples to pray.  Here Jesus says, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."  From this verse I think 2 things are clear: God's will is not always done on earth, but it is in heaven.

Also, another verse that comes to mind along these lines is 2 Peter 3:9 where Peter writes that God is, "not wishing for anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance."  But as the Bible indicates, not everyone will come to repent and follow Jesus.  Clearly, this is an instance where God wants something to happen that doesn't always happen.

And another, Old Testament, example is found in Job where God gives Satan permission to effect some of the people and things around Job, but limits what happens.  I think this is the best example as it is clear that God is allowing, but not directing the events.  Satan is a created being and the ideas/concepts behind his creation and his ultimate role in our lives and God's plans is very difficult, if not impossible to grasp...but that is another topic really.

I think the confusion/difficulty comes in the concepts of God's timelessness, omniscience (all-knowing) and the fact that He created the whole thing.  So while there are problems, they are problems with what He created and that He knew would happen when He created it.  I believe this truth is also something greater and beyond all of this life that goes beyond our 80 or so years alive in this world.  But, in conclusion, to say that everything that happens to us is "part of God's plan" is incorrect on a basic level.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your efforts, but you're never going to change a skeptic's mind by directing them to Bible verses.  That's analogous to me saying Harry Potter was born to save the world and pointing to a sentence in The Half Blood Prince as proof.  Just like you would say, "that's a fiction piece, that's not God's word," we say the same thing.  The only difference is that our books' respective authors were born several thousand years apart. 

In order to convince us, you will need to show us real world proof.

Jayrod said:
Because I care about them.  I think the truth is important to everyone.  If you are making decisions in your life on a lie, wouldn't you want to know that?
Click to expand...
Would I ever be able to convince you that the Bible is a lie?  Would you want to know, or are you content in your faith?   

 
urbanhack said:
Why would you care what anyone else thinks if you are secure in your own beliefs?
Click to expand...
This is where I am now, but it took me time to get there.  What helped me get there was adjusting my assumption with respect to naysayers.  Once i did that, everything got a lot easier.

 
Jayrod said:
The first one that I'd like to address (one that I saw today), is the idea that God always exercises his will/plan over our lives.

I believe the Bible makes it clear that God does not exercise control over everything that goes on in this life.  The primary thing that comes to mind is found in what we call "the Lord's prayer."  This is a passage found in Matthew 6 where Jesus is teaching his disciples to pray.  Here Jesus says, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."  From this verse I think 2 things are clear: God's will is not always done on earth, but it is in heaven.

Also, another verse that comes to mind along these lines is 2 Peter 3:9 where Peter writes that God is, "not wishing for anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance."  But as the Bible indicates, not everyone will come to repent and follow Jesus.  Clearly, this is an instance where God wants something to happen that doesn't always happen.

And another, Old Testament, example is found in Job where God gives Satan permission to effect some of the people and things around Job, but limits what happens.  I think this is the best example as it is clear that God is allowing, but not directing the events.  Satan is a created being and the ideas/concepts behind his creation and his ultimate role in our lives and God's plans is very difficult, if not impossible to grasp...but that is another topic really.

I think the confusion/difficulty comes in the concepts of God's timelessness, omniscience (all-knowing) and the fact that He created the whole thing.  So while there are problems, they are problems with what He created and that He knew would happen when He created it.  I believe this truth is also something greater and beyond all of this life that goes beyond our 80 or so years alive in this world.  But, in conclusion, to say that everything that happens to us is "part of God's plan" is incorrect on a basic level.
Click to expand...
Well, I can tell you with absolute certainty that there are several people in my life who are Christians who do not interpret things the same as you.  I hear people invoking the "it must be God's will"..."God has a different plan for you"..."God must have wanted it that way" type arguments to explain all sorts of occurrences in life.  Be careful if you are trying to clear up a few things about Christianity.  There is clearly a lack of consistency between your interpretation of Christianity and the views of other Christians.

 
Do most Christians believe all the mythology in the bible like virgin birth, curing lepers, walking on water, etc.? Or is that stuff sort of taken with a wink and a nod, as sort of a narrative device for more important lessons like forgiveness, redemption, etc.?

 
McGarnicle said:
Do most Christians believe all the mythology in the bible like virgin birth, curing lepers, walking on water, etc.? Or is that stuff sort of taken with a wink and a nod, as sort of a narrative device for more important lessons like forgiveness, redemption, etc.?
Click to expand...
The stuff you mentioned, yes most Christians -- the huge overwhelming majority -- believe to be literal truths. They have a lot of symbolic value, but are also taken as being factual.  It's when you get to stuff like Genesis, Job, Jonah, etc. where you see a lot of differences about whether these narratives are meant to be interpreted at face value or not.

 
The thing is, even among Christians we cannot agree on a whole lot of big questions so please be careful assuming you can speak on behalf of all of us. Btw, I'm Orthodox (but not Russian) so I get the "6 beer argument" thing.

 
:lmao:  at God "limiting" what happened to job. He "limited" beelzebub to destroying job's home, killing his family, eliminating his hard earned wealth, and covering him in boils - all to win a bet. 

 
McGarnicle said:
Do most Christians believe all the mythology in the bible like virgin birth, curing lepers, walking on water, etc.? Or is that stuff sort of taken with a wink and a nod, as sort of a narrative device for more important lessons like forgiveness, redemption, etc.?
Click to expand...
I am not sure about that stuff, probably so.  But I think most believe you will suffer inscrutable pain as you slowly roast in hell.  Happy Easter. 

 
Zow said:
:lmao:  at God "limiting" what happened to job. He "limited" beelzebub to destroying job's home, killing his family, eliminating his hard earned wealth, and covering him in boils - all to win a bet. 
Click to expand...
That may all be true, but still, God did not allow Job to be forced to read Tim's postings.  

 
McGarnicle said:
Do most Christians believe all the mythology in the bible like virgin birth, curing lepers, walking on water, etc.? Or is that stuff sort of taken with a wink and a nod, as sort of a narrative device for more important lessons like forgiveness, redemption, etc.?
Click to expand...
Yes, literally true. A vast majority of us, if not nearly 100%. Virgin birth is a biggee, as are all of the miracles. Nice selection you listed, incidentally.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
McGarnicle said:
Do most Christians believe all the mythology in the bible like virgin birth, curing lepers, walking on water, etc.? Or is that stuff sort of taken with a wink and a nod, as sort of a narrative device for more important lessons like forgiveness, redemption, etc.?
Click to expand...
The stuff you mentioned, yes most Christians -- the huge overwhelming majority -- believe to be literal truths. They have a lot of symbolic value, but are also taken as being factual.  It's when you get to stuff like Genesis, Job, Jonah, etc. where you see a lot of differences about whether these narratives are meant to be interpreted at face value or not.
Click to expand...
The miracles, in particular the virgin birth, are some of the things that drew me away from Christianity.  Another concept, which I think may be specifically Catholic-related, was transubstantiation.  The idea that the priest can read a few lines from the Bible and essentially wave his hands and change communion wafers and wine into the literal body and blood of Jesus.  Why can't it just be a representation of Jesus, why does it have to be him?  Not to bring up the indiscretions of some Catholic priests, but these guys are holy enough to change simple bread and wine into the lord and savior?

 
pecorino said:
Yes, literally true. A vast majority of us, if not nearly 100%. Virgin birth is a biggee, as are all of the miracles. Nice selection you listed, incidentally.
Click to expand...
The Catholic doctrine of believing the eucharist is the literal body of Christ is always a good one too, but I guess we can't pin that one on Christians in general.

 
jon_mx said:
I am not sure about that stuff, probably so.  But I think most believe you will suffer inscrutable pain as you slowly roast in hell.  Happy Easter. 
Click to expand...
That's a good one too. God is your father in heaven and loves you more than you could possibly imagine, but don't follow the script during this blink of an eye moment that you're here on earth, he'll make you suffer until the end of time.

 
McGarnicle said:
That's a good one too. God is your father in heaven and loves you more than you could possibly imagine, but don't follow the script during this blink of an eye moment that you're here on earth, he'll make you suffer until the end of time.
Click to expand...


But haven't you made the conscious choice to be part of the dark side,  Darth.  

 
McGarnicle said:
That's a good one too. God is your father in heaven and loves you more than you could possibly imagine, but don't follow the script during this blink of an eye moment that you're here on earth, he'll make you suffer until the end of time.
Click to expand...
Don't forget.  God is loving AND all-knowing.  He knew some of us were going to rot in hell before we're even born.  Such a gift he's given us.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Most people -- Christian and non-Christian alike -- don't realize that the premise behind your first question isn't shared by all Christians.  The Catholic church no less has endorsed the idea of "anonymous Christians" who, in essence, accept Jesus even if they don't realize that they're doing so.  In other words, that isn't some weird or fringe position.  

The more immediate issue though is with your second question.  You're not a good person.  At least not according to Christianity.  One of the absolute, bedrock principles behind Christianity is that everybody is "bad" in some very deep fundamental respect and therefore doesn't deserve salvation.  This is one of those things that absolutely rings true to me, and it's a big part of the reason why I think Christianity makes particular sense relative to other religious traditions, with the usual caveat that nobody necessarily has a monopoly on truth, etc.    
Click to expand...
If God is going to start with the premise that everyone is unworthy, then that doesn't sound like the type of deity I would want to worship.  

I also wouldn't want to worship something that would deny eternal happiness just because I don't believe in it.  Just not cool, bro.

If I die and I am wrong, I will just jump over the wall Trump built around heaven and become an illegal immigrant.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

gianmarco
***Official Links to Funny Posts***
Replies
1
Views
96
gianmarco
gianmarco
Ministry of Pain
The Tourist on Netflix
Replies
2
Views
220
CGRdrJoe
CGRdrJoe
belljr
Normal aging brain function or something more?
Replies
46
Views
1K
popeye
popeye

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top