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Kobe Bryant Retires Tonight: Place In NBA History (1 Viewer)

How Would You Rank Kobe Bryant Among The Greatest Players During Their Tenure As Lakers?

  • #1 - Greatest Laker Of All Time

    Votes: 13 7.5%

  • #2 - only one Laker was greater

    Votes: 48 27.7%

  • #3 - and so on

    Votes: 50 28.9%

  • #4

    Votes: 33 19.1%

  • #5

    Votes: 6 3.5%

  • #6-#10

    Votes: 16 9.2%

  • Outside the top 10 among Lakers

    Votes: 7 4.0%
  • Total voters
    173
B

Bruce Dickinson

Footballguy
One of the greatest basketball players of this era, or any other, plays his last game tonight.  How will he go down in the sport's history?

Among all-time players

Among all-time guards

Among players of his era

 
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Somewhere around #10 all time, top 5 guard (MJ, Magic, Oscar, Kobe, West in some order), and he and Duncan are the top 2 of their era. 

 
His legacy to me is that he wasn't among the most physically talented players but was perhaps the hardest worker in NBA history. Outside of top 100 in talent, but in top 10 because of his work ethic.

 
Said 11-20 but that might be slightly generous.

I'd wouldn't be surprised to find that he's no better than Barkley, Dirk and a bunch of other really good (but not GOAT conversation) players if you looked at him independently of the guys around him. 

 
SFBayDuck said:
Somewhere around #10 all time, top 5 guard (MJ, Magic, Oscar, Kobe, West in some order), and he and Duncan are the top 2 of their era. 
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This. Ive watched him since his rookie year. Hes tied for my favorite player of all time with Ewing.

I rank him at 10th all time behind these guys, In no particular order:

Wilt

Russel

Kareem

Jordan

Oscar

Bird

Magic

Shaq

Hakeem

 
What number Laker is interesting too. A guy some feel is top five isn't top 5 on his team to me.

 
Gawain said:
What number Laker is interesting too. A guy some feel is top five isn't top 5 on his team to me.
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Added.  Not many franchises where there would be much variance about a player of Kobe's stature in a team's history, but the Lakers have been integral to the Association's history since it was formed.

 
gianmarco said:
You forgot Curry.
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Besides being sneaky on double teams and poking the ball away, is Curry a liability on defense? 

I'm asking, not stating. IIRC, the analytics say Curry is a pretty solid defender but defer to others who are more knowledgable. Seems to me he can be posted up by bigger guards all day long.

 
Reading up on WS/48 a bit it seems like Kobe's probably not getting enough credit for guarding the opponent's scoring guard, but even so... I don't think he has a case vs these modern all-timers:

Code: 
Michael Jordan
David Robinson
Wilt Chamberlain
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Charles Barkley
Jerry West
Tim Duncan
John Stockton
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
Karl Malone
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
 
STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:
This. Ive watched him since his rookie year. Hes tied for my favorite player of all time with Ewing.

I rank him at 10th all time behind these guys, In no particular order:

Wilt

Russel

Kareem

Jordan

Oscar

Bird

Magic

Shaq

Hakeem
Click to expand...
Decent list, only obvious oversight is LeBron (it's not remotely close even if LeBron retires at the end of this season)

Not sure what to do with Malone, Stockton and Barkley- probably better players than Kobe but they didn't win a title and I know some people consider that disqualifying. Garnett too.  Also not sure what to do with Durant and Curry, both of whom will clearly pass him if they play to their mid 30s.

FWIW here are the 14 players with more career win shares than Kobe according to Basketball Reference.  Keep in mind that it's a cumulative stat so there are players below him who were better than him but didn't play as long (most notably Bird and Magic):

Kareem

Wilt

Karl Malone

Jordan

Stockton

Duncan

Notwitzki

LeBron

Garnett

Oscar

Shaq

David Robinson

Barkley

Reggie Miller

If you combine ABA and NBA you add Artis Gilmore, Dr J and Moses Malone to the list

Win shares isn't perfect but I think that puts him in about the right range, 15th or so.

 
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As far as the Lakers go, IMO: 

1. Magic Johnson

2. Kobe Bryant

3. Kareem

4. Jerry West

5. Shaq

6. Elgin Baylor

7. Wilt

After that it drops off a bit...

 
timschochet said:
As far as the Lakers go, IMO: 

1. Magic Johnson

2. Kobe Bryant

3. Kareem

4. Jerry West

5. Shaq

6. Elgin Baylor

7. Wilt

After that it drops off a bit...
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C'mon now.

Wilt and Kareem have as good a claim as anyone to the GOAT.  Neither is worse than #3 or #4 on any list, anywhere.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Decent list, only obvious oversight is LeBron (it's not remotely close even if LeBron retires at the end of this season)

Not sure what to do with Malone, Stockton and Barkley- probably better players than Kobe but they didn't win a title and I know some people consider that disqualifying. Garnett too.  Also not sure what to do with Durant and Curry, both of whom will clearly pass him if they play to their mid 30s.

FWIW here are the 14 players with more career win shares than Kobe according to Basketball Reference.  Keep in mind that it's a cumulative stat so there are players below him who were better than him but didn't play as long (most notably Bird and Magic):

Kareem

Wilt

Karl Malone

Jordan

Stockton

Duncan

Notwitzki

LeBron

Garnett

Oscar

Shaq

David Robinson

Barkley

Reggie Miller

If you combine ABA and NBA you add Artis Gilmore, Dr J and Moses Malone to the list

Win shares isn't perfect but I think that puts him in about the right range, 15th or so.
Click to expand...
I almost put both Malone and Duncan ahead of him and have no qualms with doing so.

Lebron is so mentally soft that I think he would shrink against any of those players mentioned above him. If Lebron played in Jordan's era I honestly believe Jordan would intimidate him so much that it would have a negative impact on his entire career. I know Lebron has amazing basketball intelligence and is one of the most physically gifted humans ever but mentally, he's a giant Vajayjay.

 
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doowain said:
I thought this too, until I saw this: 

LeBron James Has Been NBA's Worst Shooter Outside Paint During 2015-16 Season

Granted it's from Dec 29th and I'm too lazy to look up his stats since, but I didn't expect that.
Click to expand...
Something has been wrong with his jumper this year, but overall its a very stupid argument. He has a higher career 3 PT% than Kobe.

The argument also assumes that if you're not a great outside shooter you can't be a great basketball player, which is equally silly.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Really? Drafted out of high school, but not among the most physically talented? I'm not buying it.
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It's actually a compliment....and an accurate one.  We are talking about him being one of the greatest of all-time and not among the best physical talents in history.  That's impressive.

Would you ever put him on par physically with Tracy McGrady or Lebron James?  Not even close. 

 
doowain said:
It's actually a compliment....and an accurate one.  We are talking about him being one of the greatest of all-time and not among the best physical talents in history.  That's impressive.

Would you ever put him on par physically with Tracy McGrady or Lebron James?  Not even close. 
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Huh? What are you even basing this on? And Lebron is physically gifted and talented for his size, the dude travels more then the Travelocity Gnome.

 
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doowain said:
It's actually a compliment....and an accurate one.  We are talking about him being one of the greatest of all-time and not among the best physical talents in history.  That's impressive.

Would you ever put him on par physically with Tracy McGrady or Lebron James?  Not even close. 
Click to expand...
He may not be quite the physical freak of somebody like Lebron, Kareem, or Shaq, but Kobe was a historically elite athlete when he was young.

 
I won't participate in the "my advanced analytics prove JJ Redick is better than Kobe" game this thread will devolve into but I'll add one comment.

As a 42 yr old sports junkie and die hard Laker fan, there isn't an athlete or actor on the planet who has entertained me more in my life. From day 1 he brought excitement and flair and oozed All Time potential with his athleticism and confidence. That confidence and stubbornness have been extremely frustrating at times, but it's amazing how much you are willing to overlook when an individual gives every ounce of his will to your franchise. That work ethic is why the Lakers choose Kobe over Shaq when it wasn't a popular choice outside of Los Angeles.  That work ethic is why us Laker fans have been blessed by 7 NBA Finals appearances and 5 titles over the last 20 years. 

Their have certainly been better overall players, but as a fan if you were drafting any career with one team in the history of basketball, I think you have to take Kobe, with due respect to Bill Russell.  

 
An all-time great...winning a title without Shaq definitely helps the legacy...I would put the following ahead of him (not in any order...and pretty close to how Simmons groups them in his book):

Jordan

Russell

Wilt

Kareem

Magic

West

Duncan

After that I have a group that you can make arguments for and against (again, not in any order):

Kobe

Havilchek

Shaq

Olajuwon

Oscar

Elgin

Lebron

Kobe was pretty unlikeable as a person but the kid played hard every night and was one of those guys who you wanted to give the ball to when the game was on the line... 

 
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doowain said:
It's actually a compliment....and an accurate one.  We are talking about him being one of the greatest of all-time and not among the best physical talents in history.  That's impressive.

Would you ever put him on par physically with Tracy McGrady or Lebron James?  Not even close. 
Click to expand...
You're way, way, off here.  Bryant was a megastar in high school.  You think Brandy agrees to go to a high school kid's prom because he's got a strong work ethic?  Here, read this high school scouting report. It's almost entirely about his ridiculous physical gifts.

Also, FWIW you've been suckered by a marketing campaign. Bryant is undoubtedly a hard worker, but most NBA players are hard workers. Bryant just goes out of his way to broadcast his hard work because it's part of his image.  He's been lollygagging on the defensive end for years- I could show you hours of video proving it. Does that sound like something a the hardest worker in the NBA would do?

 
TobiasFunke said:
You're way, way, off here.  Bryant was a megastar in high school.  You think Brandy agrees to go to a high school kid's prom because he's got a strong work ethic?  Here, read this high school scouting report. It's almost entirely about his ridiculous physical gifts.

Also, FWIW you've been suckered by a marketing campaign. Bryant is undoubtedly a hard worker, but most NBA players are hard workers. Bryant just goes out of his way to broadcast his hard work because it's part of his image.  He's been lollygagging on the defensive end for years- I could show you hours of video proving it. Does that sound like something a the hardest worker in the NBA would do?
Click to expand...
Let the trolling begin.  

 
TobiasFunke said:
You're way, way, off here.  Bryant was a megastar in high school.  You think Brandy agrees to go to a high school kid's prom because he's got a strong work ethic?  Here, read this high school scouting report. It's almost entirely about his ridiculous physical gifts.

Also, FWIW you've been suckered by a marketing campaign. Bryant is undoubtedly a hard worker, but most NBA players are hard workers. Bryant just goes out of his way to broadcast his hard work because it's part of his image.  He's been lollygagging on the defensive end for years- I could show you hours of video proving it. Does that sound like something a the hardest worker in the NBA would do?
Click to expand...
Kobe was on the radar screen early in his high school days...talent was absolutely never in-question with him...he was ID'd for having big time talent about as early as you could be...his Dad was also an NBA player so he had the right genes as well...

 
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TobiasFunke said:
You're way, way, off here.  Bryant was a megastar in high school.  You think Brandy agrees to go to a high school kid's prom because he's got a strong work ethic?  Here, read this high school scouting report. It's almost entirely about his ridiculous physical gifts.

Also, FWIW you've been suckered by a marketing campaign. Bryant is undoubtedly a hard worker, but most NBA players are hard workers. Bryant just goes out of his way to broadcast his hard work because it's part of his image.  He's been lollygagging on the defensive end for years- I could show you hours of video proving it. Does that sound like something a the hardest worker in the NBA would do?
Click to expand...
Calm down bud.  I didn't insult your mother or something.

Your definition of physically gifted is different from mine.  It's not that big of a deal.  You think there is a direct 1 to 1 correlation between being physically gifted and being gifted as a basketball player.  I don't.  Kobe was/is a better basketball player (although could've been different if not for the back issues) than Tracy McGrady, but can't touch him IMO as far as physical gifts.

 
Just to sate my curiosity, doowain, but what physical gifts does/did McGrady have in more abundance than Kobe?  Can't be the ability to jump out of the gym, can't be speed or quickness, can't be hand eye coordination or endurance.  What is it then?

 
I will grant that McGrady appears to have a longer reach but I don't think that qualifies him as the more physically gifted.

 
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