Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Matt Jones/Chris Thompson/Pierre Thomas v. Andre Williams/Shane Vereen/Rashad Jennings
Jones has a lot of potential in his own right, but I don't see either situation as carved in stone.
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Paul Perkins - RB - NYG (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Borden
- Start date
Jones has a lot of potential in his own right, but I don't see either situation as carved in stone.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
While I wouldn't agree with the statement I could easily say that Matt Jones stinks (3.4 YPC), Pierre Thomas is a non-factor and Thompson is a 3rd down back. Then when I look at NYG situation and I apply the same thing... Between NY and WAS I know which back I think has the athletic ability to not only take over the starting job but hold it beyond this year. Especially when I eliminate injury history. Marshall has been climbing up the boards but he's been going a full round lower then Perkins.
LittlePhatty
Footballguy
I don't know anything about him but I'll pass simply because Paul Perkins is just not a good Running Back name. It's not even a good football name in general. Maybe a Guard could be named Paul Perkins, but that's about it. Paul Perkins is an accountant name, or a high-school principle name.
I laughed when I read this. Only because I had the same exact thought a few days ago. The Perkins part is fine. It's the Paul part that kills it. Can't envision Mike Turico screaming his name as he gallops into the end zone. I'll also be avoiding Keith Marshall and Wendell Smallwood for the same reasons. Hell, I don't even like the way Ezekiel Elliott's name flows.
Matter of fact, Devantae Booker is the only name I trust this year.
Fireinside
Footballguy
You are. But the choice your about to make has nothing to do with it. Perkins is fine choice.
OnTheReg
Footballguy
Lol, I've been called much worse than crazy, so not gonna disagree with you there! How do you rank those three, out of curiosity?
Fireinside
Footballguy
Perkins-Prosise-Booker for me. I like Booker, but I trust Anderson has finally gotten the running back thing sorted out. Prosise has been good at camp and Pete has even said they plan to play him wr too, so if finds a place in Seahawks system, he can produce good points. Have to say again that I have nothing against Booker pick, but that's how I would rate them. I usually try to make some kind of deal so that I can draft my guys in certain spots, so I don't have to overpay them. So picking Perkins later and getting something extra out of it would be best solution for me.
Borden
Footballguy
I do as well but that's not the point. Do you think that if you were to take Booker or Prosise could you trade either of them for Perkins plus something else? I believe in taking the players you like but of course it's best to try and get your players at maximum value.
I'm not saying "it's a bad pick because you didn't get the best value" if you were to make the pick. I/We don't know your league or league mates.
OnTheReg
Footballguy
Totally get what you're saying, and of course I always try to get maximum value. I am just not sure that A) Perkins will be there when I pick at 2.5 and B) if whatever someone included with Perkins for Prosise or Booker would be enough to even include.
Take the guy you like best. Those 3 are so tightly bunched its hard to say what orde they'll be picked in a given league.
DropKick
Footballguy
If I liked Perkins more than the other guys I would draft him before the other guys. Gambling on your ability (and another owner's opinion) to "maximize value" is probably a losing game... I would consider trading back a few spaces in the draft to maximize value but, no, I wouldn't draft another player to exact a trade.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Fred and I have been talking about this in this thread.
What do people think about Perkins ability to run between the tackles?
What do people think about Perkins ability to run between the tackles?
Biabreakable
Footballguy
DON’T BE SURPRISED IF ROOKIE PAUL PERKINS WINS THE GIANTS’ RB JOB
The stat is impressive I think, however they must be counting when a guy touches Perkins ankle as yards after contact. He certainly wasn't plowing through anyone. I have seen him put his head down and get extra yards out on the perimeter, so that must be part of it. My opinion about contact is likely very different than what PFF is calling it.
HIGH EXPECTATIONS FOR PAUL PERKINS: MOVING UP THE DEPTH CHART
Well I am one of those people.
The stat is impressive I think, however they must be counting when a guy touches Perkins ankle as yards after contact. He certainly wasn't plowing through anyone. I have seen him put his head down and get extra yards out on the perimeter, so that must be part of it. My opinion about contact is likely very different than what PFF is calling it.
HIGH EXPECTATIONS FOR PAUL PERKINS: MOVING UP THE DEPTH CHART
2016 NFL Draft Analysis for Fantasy Football - Running Back Paul Perkins
ZWK
Footballguy
Perkins did a good job picking up yards after contact in traffic, by my numbers. (I count a play as being in "space" if the RB is facing only one defender and has room to maneuver, and as being in "traffic" otherwise.)
Borden
Footballguy
Didn't mean to imply that don't maximize where you can. All I was saying was that maybe you are pretty sure the guy with the pick after you wants Booker but won't trade picks because he thinks he will get Booker on the pick. So, you take Booker and pick up a little something extra. Say a 4th round pick. There's numerous situations in this same vein but I think you know what I'm saying.
Like I said, you know your league and if you can't see/make anything you like then just take your guy. It was just a reminder as much as anything. I know for myself I end up getting caught up in the who/when of a draft and don't even think about trying to trade. That's all my friend.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
By your numbers it looks about as even as it could get for the traffic stats between Booker and Perkins.
I do not see Perkins running over defenders the way Booker does. To me this is a big difference in their play style. Your numbers do not reflect that and makes me wonder.
eta - when looking at your traffic touches category I see Booker gets 3+ yards after contact 40% of the time compared to Perkins 32% The in space 3+ yards is 39% to 40%
What is confusing is that you call this "Traffic 3+ Extra Rate" under the in space category. When those are space touches not traffic touches. Using the word traffic for an in space event makes this confusing.
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Borden
Footballguy
It's really difficult to say how Perkins runs between the tackles because I don't even know if he ever lined up in anything out than shotgun. I think he does a decent job or shooting gaps and getting his pads low when running through the middle but UCLA uses slide/zone protection so much that again I don't think we can make much of a projection to the next level. I'm focusing on this more than "in traffic" which I think you were more so alluding to because vision, burst and body angles probably play an equal or even greater role in running up the middle than weight/power and leg drive do.
I read/heard somewhere talking about how rookie RBs are struggling with the transition to the NFL because so few of them have enough experience running from behind center. I would guess that Perkins may fall into this category.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Yeah that is a thing is that I don't see good inside runs when watching Perkins play. The scheme isn't really designed for what I am looking for however. So I agree with you that maybe this should be more of an incomplete, than me saying he can't do it. I do see instances of him putting his head down and running with nice burst on some of the outside runs, where 3 defenders have him boxed in at the sideline and he has no other options. I just don't see it between the tackles.
You watch Perkins then watch Booker and you see Booker in a Dennis Erickson pro style offense and I do see him running well between the tackles, against 7 man box. The schemes are so different (Booker does run out of the shotgun and spread sometimes though) that I am not sure I can make a fair comparison of these players in that category.
You watch Perkins then watch Booker and you see Booker in a Dennis Erickson pro style offense and I do see him running well between the tackles, against 7 man box. The schemes are so different (Booker does run out of the shotgun and spread sometimes though) that I am not sure I can make a fair comparison of these players in that category.
Streetduck
Footballguy
LBH
Footballguy
He got drafted late in one of my dynasty leagues(that wasn't by me) but yeah he's going more or less unnoticed
ZWK
Footballguy
"Traffic 3+ Extra Rate" refers to traffic plays, and is under the "traffic" heading. It says on what percent of traffic touches the player gained at least 3 yards after contact.
Under "all touches", the "3+ Extra Rate" says on what percent of all touches without a missed tackle the player gained at least 3 yac.
I don't bother looking at 3+ extra rate for space plays in particular, because it doesn't seem that informative.
Against Cal, 5 of Perkins's 13 touches were in traffic according to my charting:
1:55 multiple defenders grab on to him just past the line of scrimmage (though not with good angles on him) and he drags them forward for 5 yac
2:30 he drives forward and pushes the pile for 3 yac
4:14 he runs through an arm tackle in the hole and picks up 11 yac (this is capped at 8 for the traffic yac/att number)
4:44 a defender is on him right after he gets the handoff, breaks that tackle, and picks up 5 yac
4:56 he goes down on first contact but falls forward for 2 yac
bostonfred
Footballguy
I don't think Perkins is going to be am instant success. I think his biggest struggle will be getting on the field early while he learns pass protection, where he's been described as a willing but not gifted blocker. I don't expect much return on investment until October/November and am ball parking thanksgiving as his coming out party. And there's a chance he never emerges.
But the juice is worth the squeeze. He's drawn comparisons to Jamaal Charles, but that's a bit ludicrous because he's nowhere near as fast. But he's also one of, if not the, most elusive backs in this rookie class. He gets yards after contact, he runs well outside, but he also has some very nice inside runs. He's a decent - not spectacular - receiver who will almost certainly cede time to vereen on third downs even if he earns the starting role. But I'm OK with that, because he should still catch some balls, and he's only got to beat out a 31 year old Jennings who was never really that good and an underperforming Andre Williams who isn't even suited for the big back role.
If Perkins - who performed very well against top competition but will still have a big learning curve - can win this job outright, he could be the primary runner, the touchdown guy, and still be the receptions guy, for a team that should score a boat load of points. And while he has to beat Jennings this year - and will likely deal with a new rookie next year - his limit is only his own talent in a nearly ideal situation, because of he hits one out of the park, the Giants would be a lot less likely to draft a guy this year with what would almost certainly also be a late round pick since a successful year by Perkins would likely mean a playoff season by the Giants.
And then again, he could be a turd who never does anything. It's a real concern. He could suck so bad at blocking it never happens. Williams could turn the corner. Mcadoo might not like his style. He might struggle running out of a pro set. There are no guarantees.
What bia and I have been talking about is whether Perkins should be drafted ahead of booker. And he makes a very good case. I'm wavering, because I like booker, too. This isn't about me vs. Bia. I have really enjoyed the discussion and learned from it.
But in the end I'm still slightly higher on Perkins. Because I want the next tiki barber. I want the next devonta freeman, and took a lot of grief for preferring freeman to Jeremy hill because I prefer that kind of guy in that kind of opportunity over a guy who is almost certainly more "talented". I get both sides, but I'm just trying to explain what I like about these guys
I want the guys who get receptions (which are among the most valuable touches), touchdowns (and who besides 31 year old Jennings and Andre Williams is going to compete for tds?) and volume (I don't expect Perkins to get 300 carries or even 250, but 200-250 touches seems reasonable if things go well)
For those same reasons, I prefer Dixon to Perkins - because I don't see buck Allen as as big a threat to carve out a long term third down role as vereen, and I see dixon as a better volume guy and better td guy than anyone else in Baltimore.
But I like booker. I'm just afraid that even if he clears the cj Anderson and hillman hurdles once, he may have to beat them again and again. I want my guy to establish himself as a stud early and remain the starter as the incumbent, which is my main knock on booker.
It's close, but give me dixon >Perkins >booker until I hear otherwise
But the juice is worth the squeeze. He's drawn comparisons to Jamaal Charles, but that's a bit ludicrous because he's nowhere near as fast. But he's also one of, if not the, most elusive backs in this rookie class. He gets yards after contact, he runs well outside, but he also has some very nice inside runs. He's a decent - not spectacular - receiver who will almost certainly cede time to vereen on third downs even if he earns the starting role. But I'm OK with that, because he should still catch some balls, and he's only got to beat out a 31 year old Jennings who was never really that good and an underperforming Andre Williams who isn't even suited for the big back role.
If Perkins - who performed very well against top competition but will still have a big learning curve - can win this job outright, he could be the primary runner, the touchdown guy, and still be the receptions guy, for a team that should score a boat load of points. And while he has to beat Jennings this year - and will likely deal with a new rookie next year - his limit is only his own talent in a nearly ideal situation, because of he hits one out of the park, the Giants would be a lot less likely to draft a guy this year with what would almost certainly also be a late round pick since a successful year by Perkins would likely mean a playoff season by the Giants.
And then again, he could be a turd who never does anything. It's a real concern. He could suck so bad at blocking it never happens. Williams could turn the corner. Mcadoo might not like his style. He might struggle running out of a pro set. There are no guarantees.
What bia and I have been talking about is whether Perkins should be drafted ahead of booker. And he makes a very good case. I'm wavering, because I like booker, too. This isn't about me vs. Bia. I have really enjoyed the discussion and learned from it.
But in the end I'm still slightly higher on Perkins. Because I want the next tiki barber. I want the next devonta freeman, and took a lot of grief for preferring freeman to Jeremy hill because I prefer that kind of guy in that kind of opportunity over a guy who is almost certainly more "talented". I get both sides, but I'm just trying to explain what I like about these guys
I want the guys who get receptions (which are among the most valuable touches), touchdowns (and who besides 31 year old Jennings and Andre Williams is going to compete for tds?) and volume (I don't expect Perkins to get 300 carries or even 250, but 200-250 touches seems reasonable if things go well)
For those same reasons, I prefer Dixon to Perkins - because I don't see buck Allen as as big a threat to carve out a long term third down role as vereen, and I see dixon as a better volume guy and better td guy than anyone else in Baltimore.
But I like booker. I'm just afraid that even if he clears the cj Anderson and hillman hurdles once, he may have to beat them again and again. I want my guy to establish himself as a stud early and remain the starter as the incumbent, which is my main knock on booker.
It's close, but give me dixon >Perkins >booker until I hear otherwise
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Thanks for clairifying Z
bostonfred
Footballguy
Heard an interesting interview yesterday talking about the giants not wanting to be an rbbc this year after having been forced into it in the past. Early indications are that that means jennings is going to get bellcow touches, but if perkins has a good august i think he could take this job outright. More likely though that there's a gradual changing of the guard and heres why.
The challenge for him is that hes not a great blocker. That offense revolves around eli and nobody thinks perkins is good enough to risk getting the qb killed. And while perkins can catch, vereen is a better receiver and third down guy. So to get playing time, he's either going to have to win the job in august, get carries sprinkled in until he can prove himself, or take over due to injury. Obviously the ideal would be to win the job now.
But to win the job in the preseason, he will have to learn quickly, because he didnt get to participate in spring camps due to the late graduation college rules. And the coaching time on offense is going to be focused on shepard, and the return of cruz, and deciding if andre williams can suddenly play, and getting all the blocking in order - its a tough ask for a rookie to get the reps to overtake a veteran rb who already knows the blocking schemes, but he has to do it on an accelerated timetable.
It seems more likely that he waits for an injury or outperforms jennings in practice and gets a chance later in the year like october or november. And that could be really valuable - he's an elusive back and fresh legs late in the season could mean a lot of broken tackles and big gains. He has a three down skill set and can catch and score touchdowns.
But he's a lottery ticket. A good handcuff in redraft. Not a guy who will likely put up points for you early in the season. The kind of guy you draft then have to drop in short roster redraft leagues. I love him in dynasty and keeper and deep roster leagues though.
The challenge for him is that hes not a great blocker. That offense revolves around eli and nobody thinks perkins is good enough to risk getting the qb killed. And while perkins can catch, vereen is a better receiver and third down guy. So to get playing time, he's either going to have to win the job in august, get carries sprinkled in until he can prove himself, or take over due to injury. Obviously the ideal would be to win the job now.
But to win the job in the preseason, he will have to learn quickly, because he didnt get to participate in spring camps due to the late graduation college rules. And the coaching time on offense is going to be focused on shepard, and the return of cruz, and deciding if andre williams can suddenly play, and getting all the blocking in order - its a tough ask for a rookie to get the reps to overtake a veteran rb who already knows the blocking schemes, but he has to do it on an accelerated timetable.
It seems more likely that he waits for an injury or outperforms jennings in practice and gets a chance later in the year like october or november. And that could be really valuable - he's an elusive back and fresh legs late in the season could mean a lot of broken tackles and big gains. He has a three down skill set and can catch and score touchdowns.
But he's a lottery ticket. A good handcuff in redraft. Not a guy who will likely put up points for you early in the season. The kind of guy you draft then have to drop in short roster redraft leagues. I love him in dynasty and keeper and deep roster leagues though.
bostonfred
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
grateful zed
Footballguy
jennings dinged
bostonfred
Footballguy
Worth talking about especially with jennings wearing a club on his hand last night but i'm not sure perkins is going to be next man up due to injury. He had some fumbles and other issues in the preseason and looked bad. I like him and own him in dynasty, and i do think the giants want him to be their future at rb, but more like midseason after hes had some more practice time to address bad habits. I don't expect jennings to miss time yet, and i would expect darkwaa and vereen to be the main guys at first with perkins getting active but not much work if jennings does miss time. If jennings remains ineffective, though, the coaches will put serious energy into improving the running game and that bodes well for perkins to get a mid season shot. Imo.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Fever in the Funkhouse
Footballguy
So, anyone expecting anything anytime soon with this guy?
wickster33
Footballguy
Any chance he'll get some run tonight?
Biabreakable
Footballguy
He did struggle with pass protection.
His big play was on a screen pass in the 4th quarter where multiple Vikings defenders missed tackles on him. Specifically Eric Kendricks.
Perkins despite not being good in pass protection looked better than Orleans Darkwa as a runner and receiver from what I saw of him in the game, although Rainey looked better and was used more than Perkins except for Perkins big play.
Bobby Rainey was able to make Kendricks and other defenders miss tackles. This is a point of emphasis for Mike Zimmer now where he says players need to do a better job of tackling, not just hitting. Rainey pretty routinely made the first defender miss.
Orleans Darkwa did nothing fancy but he does have some power. Often defenders would stand him up but would need help to take him to the ground.
Giants RB snap counts and utilization:
B Rainey RB 28 42% 4 rushing attempts 22 yards 5.5 ypc 9 targets 7 receptions 43 yards
O Darkwa RB 23 35% 12 rushing attempts 48 yards 4.0 ypc 1 TD 2 targets
P Perkins RB 15 23% 2 rushing attempts 8 yards 4.0 ypc 3 targets 2 receptions 72 yards
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Thing of beauty he weaved across the whole field and finally ran out of gas.
IMO the Goants could have used that speed out the backfield much more last night. They had a couple TO on downs on short fourths.
Rodrigo Duterte
Footballguy
Unless he learns how to protect Eli better, I wouldn't get your hopes up.
He looked extremely lost in pass protection, on at least a couple occasions in his limited snaps.
zamboni
Footballguy
That's the key right there. He may get some carries in obvious running situations, but I doubt he'll get many passing plays until he shows that he won't get Eli killed.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I agree that he will not take over soon. He had a couple preseason fumbles and some pass protection issues in his first nfl action although that was against arguably the best defense in the league.
Thats also why i don't see him taking over the vereen role.
But i do think he will get a few touches a week as a change of pace back, because he can run and catch and has big play ability. And that will give him an opportunity to improve at pass protection.
The giants were very high on him coming out and repeatedly talked about his three down skillset. There was talk that hevwas their rb of the future. There hasn't been any talk about darkwaa and rainey as long term starters. So for redraft, i think he's probably a wait and see or trade for later guy. For keeper/dynasty, though, this was an awesome outing especially after a disastrous preseason.
Thats also why i don't see him taking over the vereen role.
But i do think he will get a few touches a week as a change of pace back, because he can run and catch and has big play ability. And that will give him an opportunity to improve at pass protection.
The giants were very high on him coming out and repeatedly talked about his three down skillset. There was talk that hevwas their rb of the future. There hasn't been any talk about darkwaa and rainey as long term starters. So for redraft, i think he's probably a wait and see or trade for later guy. For keeper/dynasty, though, this was an awesome outing especially after a disastrous preseason.
Casting Couch
Footballguy
You can't teach the moves he has when toting the ball. You CAN teach pass protection.
VaTerp
Footballguy
I only remember 2 of his pass pro plays. One where Barr- who is a stud btw- just destroyed him and pushed him back 5 yards. Another where he actually did a decent job in picking up somebody.
You could be right but I'd like to see and hear more about the pass pro issues.
Outside of that, I like his chances here. I drafted Jennings to serve as a RB3/flex and have been shopping him like crazy the last 2 weeks. I could be completely wrong-and at this point hope I am- but I think he's done. I think he cedes more and more snaps/touches to the other guys.
There are obviously touches up for grabs with Vereen done and IMO a declining role for Jennings. Rainey has been good so far but Perkins is a younger more explosive player who can also mix in a few early down touches. Darkwa's presence is another issue and the whole NYG backfield is a cluster right now from a FF perspective.
But I would not be surprised to see Perkins have real PPR value 2nd half of the season. Stashing him as a Jennings owner in a deep roster league.
Well then they better work on that a bit more in his fifth month as an NFL RB, because he had no clue on Monday night.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Actually that's fairly likely. He started later than most rookies due to his late graduation, didn't get first or second team reps in the offseason, and got his first action against the vikings. And he still got 80 yards on 4 touches, so he will probably get more coaching and practice reps as a result.
So yes, i think he will "work on that a bit more in his 5th month as an nfl rb". That's exactly what i think.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I thought Perkins looked good in limited action. The only concern I have as far as him getting more playing time is that Bobby Rainey also looked pretty good.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Interesting game flow last night. Green bay is very stingy against the run, so it's probably not a surprise that darkwaa struggled, but he had just two second half carries, both on the first drive of the third quarter, for 1 and -1 yards respectively. After that it was mostly rainey and some perkins.
Rainey 7 yard catch on 3rd and 14
Rainey 3 yard run on 2nd and 4
Rainey 2 yard run on 3rd and 1
Rainey 18 yard catch on 1st and 10
Perkins 13 yard catch on 1st and 10
Perkins 4 yard run on 2nd and 16
Rainey 0 yard catch on 2nd and 10
Perkins pass incomplete on 2nd and 6
Rainey 9 yard catch on 3rd and 6
Perkins 5 yard run on 1st and 10
I did not bold all of perkins plays, or even all his "good" ones. It's all of the giants' second half rb touches inside the 25. Including their last ditch effort to get back in the game.
It's hard to get too excited about the final totals, but compared with the first half, when the giants struggled on offense, there may be some thought of increasing perkins' role.
Nathan Jahnke–Verified account @PFF_NateJahnke
Giants halftime HB snap count: Bobby Rainey 14, Orleans Darkwa 10, Paul Perkins 2
Rainey 7 yard catch on 3rd and 14
Rainey 3 yard run on 2nd and 4
Rainey 2 yard run on 3rd and 1
Rainey 18 yard catch on 1st and 10
Perkins 13 yard catch on 1st and 10
Perkins 4 yard run on 2nd and 16
Rainey 0 yard catch on 2nd and 10
Perkins pass incomplete on 2nd and 6
Rainey 9 yard catch on 3rd and 6
Perkins 5 yard run on 1st and 10
I did not bold all of perkins plays, or even all his "good" ones. It's all of the giants' second half rb touches inside the 25. Including their last ditch effort to get back in the game.
It's hard to get too excited about the final totals, but compared with the first half, when the giants struggled on offense, there may be some thought of increasing perkins' role.
Nathan Jahnke–Verified account @PFF_NateJahnke
Giants halftime HB snap count: Bobby Rainey 14, Orleans Darkwa 10, Paul Perkins 2
