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When was the last time a team with no QB traded down with one on the board in the top 5? (1 Viewer)
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Footballguy
Riversco
Footballguy
FUBAR
Footballguy
Might turn out to be a mistake but this actually seems like a decent plan. Pick up value elsewhere and go with a guy who at least had a lot of natural talent.
Riversco
Footballguy
The Browns have said there is no commitment to RG3. Even told him to expect competition.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
massraider
Footballguy
You have to be sure that Wentz is a franchise QB in order to slam the Browns, you know that, right? If you think the Browns messed up, it has to be because Wentz is the answer at QB. Not just because they should have taken a QB just because they don't have one. Especially considering the haul they got.
I am not sure that Wentz is a franchise QB. I like the Browns not making a move out of panic, and I like the draft picks they got. If they don't get a QB, and mess up the picks, then yep, they messed up, Browns-style.
I am not sure that Wentz is a franchise QB. I like the Browns not making a move out of panic, and I like the draft picks they got. If they don't get a QB, and mess up the picks, then yep, they messed up, Browns-style.
This is interesting bc the Eagles gm stated they didn't like the qb prospects in the next couple classes, which is what you'd expect them to stay. But I doubt anyone had Carson wentz as anything more than a late round pick this time last year.
massraider
Footballguy
I kind of laughed when he said looking ahead at QB they weren't optimistic.
However, the point was brought up on ESPN, of all places, and it's a good one. It's rare for teams picking at the top to be willing to trade out if QBs are there. And further, and this is interesting, there are a lot of good teams with old QBs, and there's gonna be some musical chairs at QB here soon, and not everyone is gonna get a chair.
Rivers
Brady
Manning
Roethlisberger
Brees
Romo
Palmer
Lot of teams going to be looking to add QBs in the next few years. Plus, the Eagles only had to go from 8 to 2. And they were only at 8 because the Dolphins are run by mentally challenged monkeys. So, it was a good time to make the move. I can see that.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Howie Roseman said last year that:
- History of trading up doesn't favor the team that trades up.
- (Teams) always overestimate their abilities to pick great players.
- If the Eagles take Wentz it would fly in the face of how he noted the 'quality of competition' is important to consider in evaluating players.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/eagles/Howie-Roseman-on-draft-day-trades-free-agency-the-combine-and-more.html
Howie Roseman - in 2015 - on trading up in the draft
Updated: APRIL 21, 2016 — 1:07 PM EDT
(NOTE: This blog post was originally published on March 1, 2015. On April 20, 2016, the Eagles traded several draft picks, including their first picks in 2016 and 2017, to move from eighth to second in the first round of the NFL draft.)
Howie Roseman said that the history of trading up for one player in the NFL Draft is not favorable for the team that must give up significant resources...
... "When you’re looking at trading up, at some point, your board drops off so dramatically in terms of how you evaluate that player,” Roseman said, as heard on the conference’s webcast. “But the history of trading up for one player, when you look at those trades, isn’t good for the team trading up and putting a lot of resources into it.
"Because the guys who are really good at the draft, if you’re hitting on 60 percent of your first-round picks, that’s a pretty good track record. And then it’s dropping as you go through the rounds. So really, the more chances you get, the more tickets to the lottery you get, the better you should be doing.”
... “… we also always overestimate our ability to pick great players. That’s what we do – we have confidence in our ability to pick players ...”
ON PLAYER EVALUATION…
“It’s about the quality of competition when you’re evaluating someone. So if you’re evaluating a pass rusher and he’s going up against a low level of competition, and he has three sacks against an offensive tackle who’s going to be on Wall Street three months after the season ends, that’s not the same as seeing him go up against a future first-round pick.
“So when we’re looking at players, we’re trying to make sure – it’s like these guys in the preseason who do great in the fourth quarter against guys who are going to be out of football two weeks later. So part of it is who they’re going up against, the quality of competition.”
===================
Per the slanted question from the OP.
The better question would be:
In the history of the NFL, has any front office accomplished this much in the first three months that they were hired?
In the three months that they have been in charge, Sashi Brown and Paul DePodesta have made these moves:
- They hired the best HC option available in Hue Jackson
- They signed the 2nd pick in the draft from a few years ago in RG III at no draft cost and minimal cap cost
- They traded for an extra 3rd round pick this year
- They traded for an extra 4th round pick this year
- They traded for an extra 1st round pick next year
- They traded for an extra 2nd round pick two years out
- They did not overpay free agents and should acquire 4 compensatory picks next year
They did most of the above at the cost of only moving down 6 spots in the first round of this draft.
The moves that they have made in only 3 months have been impressive IMHO.
Johnny Bing
Footballguy
We probably will know more after the draft of their reasoning or thought process. But so far it appears Hue Jackson is confident in RG3. Or because they made a statement it isn't his job yet, they may draft a Paxton Lynch, Connor Cook, etc in the draft early.
That would tell me Jackson and the scouts didn't see that much difference between Wentz and the next QB prospects. Or the prospect they like at QB is someone they could get later in the draft.
That would tell me Jackson and the scouts didn't see that much difference between Wentz and the next QB prospects. Or the prospect they like at QB is someone they could get later in the draft.
twood
Footballguy
I think if RG3 was in this draft he would be the #1 overall pick.
Was his rookie year really that long ago that we cant remember how GREAT he was.
He rushed back from injury and looked awful, lost his MoJo and started hearing whispers.His new coach wasn't a fan of his offensive game and wanted the QB position to do all the negatives of RG3's game and not allow him to do what his talents offered.
Hue will make his offense work around RG3's God given talents and bring him back.
Plus, all the picks.
I personally think this has been the best offseason for Cleveland in quite some time.
They have a lot of holes but I think they finally have the right coach and a lot of picks to fill those holes with his type of players.
Was his rookie year really that long ago that we cant remember how GREAT he was.
He rushed back from injury and looked awful, lost his MoJo and started hearing whispers.His new coach wasn't a fan of his offensive game and wanted the QB position to do all the negatives of RG3's game and not allow him to do what his talents offered.
Hue will make his offense work around RG3's God given talents and bring him back.
Plus, all the picks.
I personally think this has been the best offseason for Cleveland in quite some time.
They have a lot of holes but I think they finally have the right coach and a lot of picks to fill those holes with his type of players.
CalBear
Footballguy
It's the Browns.
The last time they had a top-5 pick they took Trent Richardson, with Ryan Tannehill, Russell Wilson, and Kirk Cousins on the board. They took Brandon Weeden later in the first round.
Before that they took Joe Thomas, which was probably their best draft pick in the modern era. They took Brady Quinn later in the first round.
In 2005 they took Braylon Edwards instead of Aaron Rodgers. Trent Dilfer was their QB at the time.
In 2001 they took Gerard Warren with Drew Brees still on the board. To be fair, Tim Couch was entering his third year and hadn't totally flamed out yet (though he was 4-17 as a starter).
The last time they had a top-5 pick they took Trent Richardson, with Ryan Tannehill, Russell Wilson, and Kirk Cousins on the board. They took Brandon Weeden later in the first round.
Before that they took Joe Thomas, which was probably their best draft pick in the modern era. They took Brady Quinn later in the first round.
In 2005 they took Braylon Edwards instead of Aaron Rodgers. Trent Dilfer was their QB at the time.
In 2001 they took Gerard Warren with Drew Brees still on the board. To be fair, Tim Couch was entering his third year and hadn't totally flamed out yet (though he was 4-17 as a starter).
What? A player released by the Redskins wouldn't be the #1 overall pick in any way shape or form. His last good year was 2013. He looked terrible in 2014 and Kirk Cousins won the battle in 2015.
Honestly, if you are counting on RG3 lasting behind an OL that lost a top RT and a top C (basically 2 out of the 3 talents that made them a top 5 PFF OL), you are hoping on a miracle. I think they are hoping he can keep the ship afloat to get the top pick next year. I think that is why they let go of all their free agents. If they really thought RG3 had any chance of doing well, why let all the talent leave, especially at OL and with an abundance of cap space?
They are loading up for the future and RG3 isn't it and Browns fans that think that RG3 will do anything, without Benjamin, Gordon (he isn't coming back), Schwartz and Mack, this year is smoking crack.
FUBAR
Footballguy
While no coach, staff or player should go into a season thinking "we suck, we'll get the 1.01 and be set in the future", the logical plan here is to play RG3 and see what he can do, then if he fails draft a QB next year. In the meantime bulk up the rest of the roster.
Without Benjamin, Gordon, Schwartz and Mack, RG3 is most likely going to get destroyed by the Steelers, Ravens and Bengals. I'd be shocked if he plays anywhere close to 16 games.
Pwingles
Footballguy
i didnt take it that way, it more sounded like;
why grab a qb we dont love this year, when we can acquire more pieces and likely have a shot a qb we like more next year
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Gordon wasn't on the team last year but he might be this year if he gets reinstated in August. Benjamin hadn't done anything up until last year. He was injured three of his first four years and check out his production over the final month of last year where he disappeared. The club has 12 draft picks, 6 of the top-100. They will undoubtedly take at least one WR in the draft and it would not be a surprise if they used a 1st or 2nd round pick on a WR.
The Browns get OG Joel Bitonio back healthy this year. He was injured the bulk of last year. Their 1st round pick, C Cameron Irving, is going to start at C for Alex Mack. Last year's coaching staff didn't use him at C last year so he was out of position and struggled. Reports are that he looks good this year. Austin Pastir (sp?) looked 'good' last year but the team will draft at least one more offensive lineman. The rest of the line is solid and should get a boost from Bitonio's return.
IOWs the Browns offensive line is in better shape than people realize.
RB Duke Johnson looks like a guy who will make a big leap in production this year. He looked good as a receiver out of the backfield and should get a lot more looks this year.
Nobody expects anything from the team but the O-Line is in far better shape than people realize. Only right tackle is a question mark at this time. The other 4 positions are set.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Since the Browns did not like either of the top 2 QBs in this draft, they made the right move. The Browns have McCown to insert as a starter if RGIII fails miserably. The Browns have a ton of holes to fill and need as many draft picks as they can gather.
Good to know. As a Panther fan that had to watch our awfulness of a new set of OL playing together in 2014, I know that even if the players are good it will take time to gel. Newton got killed on the way to 3-8-1 before the line started playing well in the four game winning streak to get them into the playoffs. 2015 outside of the Super Bowl the OL was ranked #2 by PFF.
We'll see if your optimism pays off because at this point there's been so little happening that "looking good" is way premature to call the guys outside of Thomas as solid.
My worry as a Browns fan would be that RG3 isn't Newton and him taking hits early this year can knock him out of a lot of games.
CalBear
Footballguy
The Browns apparently did not like Aaron Rodgers in 2005; did they make the right move taking Braylon Edwards instead?
Whether they made the right move depends on whether they're right about the player or not. More draft picks doesn't seem to have helped the Browns build the team.
Tau837
Footballguy
Consider:
- Rivers is 34 and under contract for 4 more seasons.
- Roethlisberger is 34 and under contract for 4 more seasons.
- Eli is 35 and under contract for 4 more seasons.
The others are older and/or more injury prone (Romo), so I agree their teams may need to act sooner, assuming they don't feel they already have a successor on the roster.
daveR
Footballguy
I'm not sure Sashi Brown even met Phil Savage. Surprised you stopped in to this thread to be snarky. You normally have excellent comments.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Maybe the didn't like the prospects. 
massraider
Footballguy
I believe the thinking that QBs are all going to be effective till 39 years old is going to be proven very incorrect.
That being said, I agree that is a more long term view, I believe the notion that the teams at the very top of the draft don't need/want a QB is rare, and you cannot count on that happening too often.
I think that the overall idea, 'We are in striking distance of a franchise QB, we need to get him' is sound. I don't like the price, it can gut your depth, but a franchise QB is a long play, 10-15 years, so frankly, that QB is going to be around for two or three roster turnovers. None of Tom Brady's draftmates ate helping him out too much.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I'm not usually a big fan of hyperbole, but this has to be one of the craziest statements I've seen on this forum.
Let's unpack this for a minute.
You're asserting that the Rams, who weren't willing to bring RG3 in when all it would cost is backup QB money, would draft him #1 overall ahead of Jared Goff, who they will pay far more and also mortgaged their next couple of drafts to get into position to get?
Literally, if given the choice between drafting RG3 at #1 or forfeiting the draft pick, they would forfeit the pick. They already showed this much when they decided not to sign him for less than half the money of what the #1 pick's contract will cost. They're not even willing to spend the money it would cost to draft him there, much less come anywhere close to using the draft pick itself.
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Tau837
Footballguy
It kind of depends on your perspective. It is hard to obtain even an NFL average starter through any method (draft, trade, free agency).
So it makes sense for teams that have great QBs to count on them to play to near 40, even if their play drops off from good/great to average. For example, there is no guarantee the Saints could find a better QB to play in 2 years than a 39 year old Brees, even if they paid a king's ransom for a top draft pick during that period.
It also makes sense that QBs in this era can play well longer than in previous eras, thanks to rule changes, better medical treatments, and greater understanding and emphasis on proper nutrition and exercise.
It is also true that all of Rivers, Roethlisberger, Eli, and Brees have been the face of their franchises for more than a decade and are arguably among the few best players in their franchises' histories. So their franchises presumably want them to play out their careers for their current teams.
Meanwhile, if you draft a good QB, you only have control of them for 4-5 years. In the case of Rivers, Roethlisberger, and Eli, there is little reason to expect a backup QB to see the field for at least the next 3 years.
Put it all together, and it doesn't make sense for the Chargers, Steelers, or Giants to worry about their next QBs for at least 2 more years, barring an unexpected major injury.
massraider
Footballguy
Agreed, and I wasn't arguing that point.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Agree that the jury is still out on whether this will work out or not for the Browns. However I think the premise of this thread is right on. I can't think of another time where a team traded up into the top of the draft for a QB, and the team they were trading with also needed a QB and was probably going to take one there themselves before the trade.
FUBAR
Footballguy
right. I assumed he meant if RG3 were coming out of college this year. In which case I think he's right but haven't looked closely.
daveR
Footballguy
Yesterday, on the radio, Browns GM Sashi Brown said he believes the guy they would have taken at 2 will still be there at 8.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
beef
Footballguy
no, i believe that player really will be there. every other team has that player graded as a 2nd rounder.
massraider
Footballguy
Starting a follow up topic:
When was last time team should have traded down instead of drafting the stiff they took at QB?
When was last time team should have traded down instead of drafting the stiff they took at QB?
lod01
Footballguy
This is exactly why they should have gone QB. When you totally suck, you need to get QB resolved. Otherwise, as you continue to flounder, your picks in previous drafts are wasted. See Joe Thomas and Mack.
Also see the Jags. They finally appear to have a franchise QB after a decade of nothing.
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For this year. Let's face it, the Browns suck and they know they will probably be picking top two again next year, so if RG3 doesn't pan out, they will pick a QB next season.
massraider
Footballguy
So you believe Wentz is the answer?
People need to stop saying 'QB'. Like the Browns can just draft 'Franchise QB'.
lod01
Footballguy
I think Goff and Wentz will outperform both QBs taken 1-2 in the 2015 NFL draft over the course of their careers. Barring injury.
massraider
Footballguy
lod01
Footballguy
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