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Snorkelson

Darren Waller, TE Oakland- gonna make some noise

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I like wallers size/speed combo, and makes for an intriguing te prospect. He has officially made the position switch from wr, but with a sudden glut of te in Baltimore means he is likely a stash for deep dynasty. Anyone think Waller is worth the roster spot?

Edited by Snorkelson

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He is young so there is a chance he could earn a role at some point.

However there are many TE in Baltimore. Hell they even added Chase Ford off the Vikings practice squad last year. This does not speak well for Waller when they are picking guys up to make sure they do not need to play him.

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They drafted him as a wr, he played a little last year, and just reported today that they are moving him to te. Speaks more of the te they have if you ask me. Maybe they are getting lots of options and see if any stand out. Maybe Waller spends a year on the psquad adding mass to his frame and earns a role next year.

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I recall looking at Waller as a prospect and I thought he had more value as a move TE. 

So if the Ravens have moved him to TE I think that is a good sign for his potential value in FF. At the same time they have Gilmore and Max Williams. Not sure what Fords current status with the team is.

I think it would be more difficult for him to earn offensive snaps at WR than TE. They needed a WR in the worst way last year and he didn't get any opportunity. He still has a lot of competition ahead of him at TE, but if he does earn playing time at the TE position (maybe with another team?) it is better for his value in FF.

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Yeah agree it's crowded but Watson is long in the tooth. Can't imagine Williams is viewed as a bust yet, Gilmore is decent but neither guy showed much production. So they have 5-6 guys there right now, but if he gets a roster spot or practice squad there just aren't many tes that are 6'5" and run a 4.4. I'm going to try to hold onto him if I can keep the space.

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With the influx of rookie picks needing roster spots there may be more interesting free agents cut by teams after the rookies are added.

Hard to imagine you couldn't find someone in free agency with perhaps a easier path to becoming relevant.

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12 hours ago, Arodin said:

Ford is gone, but they also added Ben Watson.  It's crowded.  Is Pitta still trying to comeback too?

Yep, he is. Thought I wouldn't count on it actually happening.

Waller is an intriguing physical prospect, but I think he's still another 1-2 years away from really having a chance to become anything. While there aren't any "stud" TEs in BAL, it's one of the most crowded TE depth charts in the NFL. Watson/Maxx/Gillmore/Pitta(if he recovers), and then they even have the suspended Nick Boyle that some believe is a better prospect than Maxx Williams is.

I rostered Waller in a few of my deeper leagues throughout last season (eventually put him on IR), but I can't see a scenario where I'll burn a roster spot on him this year. I'll probably be dropping all of my Waller shares once we filter in the rookies in a couple of weeks. He might be an intriguing stash again at the end of the season, but I don't plan on having him on my roster during the '16 season unless he starts to show something on the field. I just think the likelihood of him doing anything relatively soon is too low to warrant tying up a roster spot on him.

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I drafted him, then traded him (he was the piece in a counter oddly enough) then picked him up off the ww. We will see when cut time comes, but I know he is on at least one other owners radar. Deep stash for sure

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Waller looks like a pretty interesting sleeper to me for 2019.

In the post-draft press conferences, Gruden and Mayock both talked as if he was locked in as the starting Y-TE (receiving role) with rookie 4th rounder Foster Moreau slated for the inline, blocking role that was previously occupied by Lee Smith. Waller will be stepping into the same role that let Jared Cook finish as TE5 last year. Now, I don't think Waller will have the same sort of volume as Cook did because of the upgrades at WR but you can at least see the path to fantasy relevancy.

Also thought Waller flashed a little bit late last season with plays like this:

44 yard catch

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23 hours ago, Dan Hindery said:

Waller looks like a pretty interesting sleeper to me for 2019.

In the post-draft press conferences, Gruden and Mayock both talked as if he was locked in as the starting Y-TE (receiving role) with rookie 4th rounder Foster Moreau slated for the inline, blocking role that was previously occupied by Lee Smith. Waller will be stepping into the same role that let Jared Cook finish as TE5 last year. Now, I don't think Waller will have the same sort of volume as Cook did because of the upgrades at WR but you can at least see the path to fantasy relevancy.

Also thought Waller flashed a little bit late last season with plays like this:

44 yard catch

Waller flashed a bit in Baltimore too. Kind of amazing the guy has stuck on multiple rosters despite multiple suspensions and a position change. I think that speaks to what those teams think of his skill level. Hopefully this is an opportunity meets talent moment. Cost me nothing to roster him in early FA and took out some of the sting of having lost ASJ in multiple leagues just to watch him sign in NE.

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Raiders OC Greg Olson said TE Darren Waller "has that position" and currently sits atop the depth chart.

"So now that he has that position, it’s your position, you are the ‘Y’ in certain personnel groupings," Olson said. "We’re going to put you out there on the field and you’re going to play. You’re going to get better from playing. ... You have to go now. We’re really pushing him to the limit right now." Waller has been hyped much of the offseason and is being gifted a golden opportunity to win the job following Jared Cook's departure. His competition is not stiff, either, with the likes of Luke Willson, Derek Carrier, Erik Swoope, and fourth-round rookie Foster Moreau also in the building. Waller has been a standout at OTAs. The 6'6/255 prospect needs to be able to make the transition when the pads come on, however.

SOURCE: NBC Sports Bay Area

May 28, 2019, 11:44 PM ET

 

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Gruden blows a lot of smoke. I’ve always liked Waller as a long shot athlete. Still pretty cheap real estate in Best Ball. Pretty sure any good dynasty has eaten him up off of waivers. Not sure I’d be a heavy believer with the other targets available in Oakland.

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Well I got him in five rookie drafts all in the 4th through 7th rounds. Will see if anything happens. Maybe a little more preseason hype can make him flippable (new word I just made up). 

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Thanks for the heads up, SP. Grabbed this guy in late third of rookie draft. Need another warm body to platoon at TE2 and a potential starter with upside sounds good. The coachspeak from Gruden is pretty epic, even by Gruden standards. But 70% of Cook's season would be just fine.

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On 5/4/2019 at 8:38 AM, Dan Hindery said:

Waller will be stepping into the same role that let Jared Cook finish as TE5 last year. Now, I don't think Waller will have the same sort of volume as Cook did because of the upgrades at WR but you can at least see the path to fantasy relevancy.

Cook had 101 targets, but their WR group was possibly the worst in the NFL, and they added 5 new WRs this offseason who could end up as the top 5 WRs on their final roster. I expect TE targets will be significantly reduced.

Waller had 42 offensive snaps in 4 games for OAK last season. In his one season at TE in BAL, he had 235 offensive snaps in 12 games, less than 20 per game. It seems that he is being projected for a huge increase in snaps to justify the optimism. I realize that Gruden has talked him up, but Gruden talks up most of his players.

Not sure what the deal is with his substance abuse, but he has also been suspended twice for that. Is it a given that he now has that under control?

Put it all together, and I'm skeptical about fantasy relevance other than in leagues with significant TE premium or an unusually large number of TEs starting every week.

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Paid a buck for him in both my dynasty leagues, easy to drop at that price but certainly worth the price of admission. Wouldn’t be happy with myself if I lost out on a relevant TE at that price.

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There is virtually no risk whatsoever in getting him as late as I did. Whether I can roster him going into the regular season is another question. I don't have any big expectations but I can see what happens in preseason. 

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1 hour ago, barackdhouse said:

There is virtually no risk whatsoever in getting him as late as I did. Whether I can roster him going into the regular season is another question. I don't have any big expectations but I can see what happens in preseason. 

he's an auto draft pick for me in deep best balls

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8 hours ago, Just Win Baby said:

Cook had 101 targets, but their WR group was possibly the worst in the NFL, and they added 5 new WRs this offseason who could end up as the top 5 WRs on their final roster. I expect TE targets will be significantly reduced.

Waller had 42 offensive snaps in 4 games for OAK last season. In his one season at TE in BAL, he had 235 offensive snaps in 12 games, less than 20 per game. It seems that he is being projected for a huge increase in snaps to justify the optimism. I realize that Gruden has talked him up, but Gruden talks up most of his players.

Not sure what the deal is with his substance abuse, but he has also been suspended twice for that. Is it a given that he now has that under control?

Put it all together, and I'm skeptical about fantasy relevance other than in leagues with significant TE premium or an unusually large number of TEs starting every week.

He's been my go-to pick as my TE3 in the 18th round of best ball drafts. His ADP is TE37 right now on DRAFT, where around 32 or so are taken in the average 12-team league.

I do think he'll finish quite a bit higher than TE37 but yeah, I think it comes down to time and place and knowing the relative value of TE in your league. I wouldn't take him in leagues where only 20 TEs are drafted or anything. 

TE targets should go down some but I don't think Oakland has much behind AB and Tyrell Williams. The other guys they added are late-round rookies or journeymen types. Admittedly, the same could be said of Waller. However, Gruden hasn't been raving about any of those other guys the way he has Waller. I wrote Waller's FBG profile this year and I'll re-post this part of it:

"Since the time he's walked in here, he's been one of the most impressive guys on our team," Gruden said. "He learns fast. He is fast. He's extremely talented. I think he's going to be one of the best-kept secrets in the league."

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/players/player-all-info.php?id=WallDa00&ref=s

 

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1 hour ago, Dan Hindery said:

He's been my go-to pick as my TE3 in the 18th round of best ball drafts. His ADP is TE37 right now on DRAFT, where around 32 or so are taken in the average 12-team league.

I do think he'll finish quite a bit higher than TE37 but yeah, I think it comes down to time and place and knowing the relative value of TE in your league. I wouldn't take him in leagues where only 20 TEs are drafted or anything. 

TE targets should go down some but I don't think Oakland has much behind AB and Tyrell Williams. The other guys they added are late-round rookies or journeymen types. Admittedly, the same could be said of Waller. However, Gruden hasn't been raving about any of those other guys the way he has Waller. I wrote Waller's FBG profile this year and I'll re-post this part of it:

"Since the time he's walked in here, he's been one of the most impressive guys on our team," Gruden said. "He learns fast. He is fast. He's extremely talented. I think he's going to be one of the best-kept secrets in the league."

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/players/player-all-info.php?id=WallDa00&ref=s

 

I don't disagree, although I think Gruden has definitely raved about rookie WR Renfrow, who the team traded up to draft. I assume he will be the new starting slot WR.

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Five Observations from Day One of the Oakland Raiders Mandatory Minicamp

Excerpt:

Quote

Darren Waller keeps the good times rolling

Another guy who has really enjoyed a quality start to 2019 is tight end Darren Waller.

In addition to being an absolutely freak athlete, the former Baltimore Raven is at a good place off the field, and with the confidence of Coach Gruden and the organization behind him, Waller is hopeful that he’s found a permanent football home.

“The thing with me is…I feel like people have always had faith in me, but it was like I didn’t really have faith in myself,” he explained Tuesday. “So it’s part of doing my part, doing my half because a lot of coaches have stuck their neck out for me and what I’ve given them in return isn’t what they deserve or what the team deserved. For Coach Gruden to say that, I feel like I’m at a place in my life where I can build off of that and make the most of my abilities and what God gave me.”

Those abilities were on full display on the opening day of Minicamp, as Waller flashed that aforementioned athleticism on numerous occasions, most noticeably hauling in a really nice sideline catch courtesy of Derek Carr.

 

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I plan to take him at the end of the second, either him or Jace.

Tex

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Raiders coach Jon Gruden said TE Darren Waller has been "one of our most impressive players."

"He's not been brought up as a tight end, but he has made a lot of progress," said Gruden. "He's got some big shoes to fill, I know he respects that, but he's versatile, smart, fast. He wants to do good." This isn't the first time the Raiders have talked up Waller this offseason. Waller is the frontrunner to replace Jared Cook, but he comes with a very low floor. Luke Willson, Derek Carrier, Erik Swoope, and fourth-round rookie Foster Moreau will push Waller in training camp.

SOURCE: NBC Sports Bay Area

Jun 21, 2019, 5:24 PM ET

 

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Fools Gold

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3 hours ago, Penguin said:

Fools Gold

Fools gold implies you are paying gold prices for fake gold. He is (or was) a ww pickup in dynasty, he’s at a position where it doesn’t take a ton of production to make an impact or be rosterable, and has intriguing tools and a chance to start. The starting te had 68/800+/6tds last year.  I think I’ve made a reasonable case for why he could be relevant. This could be a case of offseason hype but the guy is really big and fast and can catch. We get excited when a basketball player becomes a te, why can’t we get excited about a wr? 

If you’re talking redraft, well yeah probably not a guy I’m drafting but a guy I’m watching. 

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51 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

Fools gold implies you are paying gold prices for fake gold. 

When people used to pan for gold, some dude might rejoice in finding Pyrite, expecting a big payday. He was the fool for thinking he found something special, but he only found a rock. He didnt make any money off it.

As for Waller, he's been in the league long enough you'd think he would have broken out by now if he was gonna.

Edited by cloppbeast
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12 hours ago, cloppbeast said:

When people used to pan for gold, some dude might rejoice in finding Pyrite, expecting a big payday. He was the fool for thinking he found something special, but he only found a rock. He didnt make any money off it.

As for Waller, he's been in the league long enough you'd think he would have broken out by now if he was gonna.

He played at wr yr 1, served a suspension, transitioned to te (even tes playing te take a bit to break out) and he’s still in the league and sounds like he’s earning playing time. Honestly the fact that he’s still in the league is a testament to his potential.

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Waller may blow up, but it won't be because of Jared Cook's 2018 production. Cook wasn't competing with Brown Town and The Gazelle for looks. And Hunter Renfrow and Josh Jake were still in college. Mouths be hungry, yo.

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On 6/28/2019 at 12:59 PM, cloppbeast said:

When people used to pan for gold, some dude might rejoice in finding Pyrite, expecting a big payday. He was the fool for thinking he found something special, but he only found a rock. He didnt make any money off it.

As for Waller, he's been in the league long enough you'd think he would have broken out by now if he was gonna.

League is full of guys who bounced around practice squads or bottom of rosters for 2-3 seasons until they pop. Especially guys who switch positions. After a promising rookie stint when Welker went down Edelman did nothing for two seasons. In fact, he even had to play D to make the team.

I think Waller is a very low risk high reward dynasty play at a position without many of them. Outside a rookie coin flip (which would cost you decent draft capital), show me a guy with a clear path to TE1 relevance sitting on the wire? The guy is the top of the depth chart for a team where the TE who left was top 5. Nothing but good things being said. Which don't mean much but are better than bad things. 

Maybe there are other guys I'm not privy to, I don't know. Only guy off top of my head that might be on the wire is Adam Shaheen if Burton injury gets him Pipped.

This time of year, Waller is the kind of pick up that can give you an edge. If he's nothing who cares? So you weren't able to roster Byron Pringle or Devine Ozigbo for a few months. Ouch.

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I got him in the 5th round of rookie/FA drafts last month. If he busts it isn't analogous to the panner that picks up some pyrite. It's more like sitting on the couch while someone else pans for you and *then* finds pyrite.

He is basically free. Panning takes work and time. There is an actual investment there. I don't think a 5th round pick qualifies as that. 

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11 hours ago, LawFitz said:

Waller may blow up, but it won't be because of Jared Cook's 2018 production. Cook wasn't competing with Brown Town and The Gazelle for looks. And Hunter Renfrow and Josh Jake were still in college. Mouths be hungry, yo.

The gazelle?

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5 hours ago, tombonneau said:

League is full of guys who bounced around practice squads or bottom of rosters for 2-3 seasons until they pop. Especially guys who switch positions. After a promising rookie stint when Welker went down Edelman did nothing for two seasons. In fact, he even had to play D to make the team.

I think Waller is a very low risk high reward dynasty play at a position without many of them. Outside a rookie coin flip (which would cost you decent draft capital), show me a guy with a clear path to TE1 relevance sitting on the wire? The guy is the top of the depth chart for a team where the TE who left was top 5. Nothing but good things being said. Which don't mean much but are better than bad things. 

Maybe there are other guys I'm not privy to, I don't know. Only guy off top of my head that might be on the wire is Adam Shaheen if Burton injury gets him Pipped.

This time of year, Waller is the kind of pick up that can give you an edge. If he's nothing who cares? So you weren't able to roster Byron Pringle or Devine Ozigbo for a few months. Ouch.

All I'm saying, and this is my only point, what I mean, for better or worse, many of the guys with alleged talent, most of the time they will show it at least by the time they're 26. Thats pretty old for a break out. You'll find exceptions if you have a good memory, but overall it's like less than 10% chance or not even.

As far as better tes maybe on the waiver: Shaheen, Everett, Hurst, Akins, Thomas x 2, Smith, Hurst, or James. Pretty gross, actually. You're definitely right, though, you don't pass up much by picking up Waller. I'll give you that.

Edited by cloppbeast

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On 6/29/2019 at 10:22 AM, tombonneau said:

League is full of guys who bounced around practice squads or bottom of rosters for 2-3 seasons until they pop. Especially guys who switch positions. After a promising rookie stint when Welker went down Edelman did nothing for two seasons. In fact, he even had to play D to make the team.

"full of guys" implies a large number of such players. Can you really name a large number? Now, of that group, how many broke out after being suspended twice by the league? how many broke out on their second team? how many broke out in their 5th pro season and not before?

Point being, Waller's situation is decidedly uncommon, whereas your statement here seems to imply guys like him break out often. I don't believe that is true. :shrug: 

On 6/29/2019 at 10:22 AM, tombonneau said:

I think Waller is a very low risk high reward dynasty play at a position without many of them... show me a guy with a clear path to TE1 relevance sitting on the wire?

I don't think Waller has a clear path to "TE1 relevance," if that is intended to mean a path to finishing 2019 as a top 10-12 fantasy TE. But maybe that isn't what you mean since you later mentioned Shaheen if Burton got hurt.

I agree he is low risk, high reward. As such, it may make perfect sense for a team to pick him up, depending on league parameters and roster makeup. I just don't think it is necessary to inflate his fantasy prospects to make that case.

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21 hours ago, cloppbeast said:

As far as better tes maybe on the waiver: Shaheen, Everett, Hurst, Akins, Thomas x 2, Smith, Hurst, or James. Pretty gross, actually. You're definitely right, though, you don't pass up much by picking up Waller. I'll give you that.

I checked one of my dynasty leagues, which is a 12 team PPR dynasty league with no TE premium. In that league, we currently have expanded rosters to 28 players, with 332 total players (and DSTs) rostered. A total of 41 TEs are currently rostered. From your list here, only Shaheen, Akins, and James are available. Waller is also available. FWIW my team chose to add Seals-Jones over Waller when rosters expanded, and I am content to leave him on the wire given my current roster needs and makeup.

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13 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

"full of guys" implies a large number of such players. Can you really name a large number? Now, of that group, how many broke out after being suspended twice by the league? how many broke out on their second team? how many broke out in their 5th pro season and not before?

How many 5th year TE on their second team that have been suspended twice have been pumped non-stop by their coaching staff and just about inked in as the Week 1 starter?

Seems like the back half of those qualifiers would go a long way towards mitigating the first half.

Not saying he's going to be a stud, just that the earlier stuff probably isn't super relevant to 2019.  He's got a legit chance to start for a team that threw the ball to the TE last year.  And even if you think top-12 is out of reach, after the TE debacle that was 2018 I'd think people would be lining up for that.

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2 hours ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

How many 5th year TE on their second team that have been suspended twice have been pumped non-stop by their coaching staff

How many of them played for Jon Gruden?

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2 hours ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Not saying he's going to be a stud, just that the earlier stuff probably isn't super relevant to 2019.  He's got a legit chance to start for a team that threw the ball to the TE last year.  And even if you think top-12 is out of reach, after the TE debacle that was 2018 I'd think people would be lining up for that.

Yes, they threw the ball to the TE a lot last season. Then, in this offseason, they replaced their entire WR corps... I mean, literally, there will probably be 5 new WRs on the roster this season. And, obviously, those WRs include 2 very highly paid players in Brown and Tyrell. It is also fair to suggest that Waller is a significant dropoff from Cook at TE. What OAK did with the TE last season has no bearing on what they will do this season.

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On 6/29/2019 at 1:02 PM, barackdhouse said:

I got him in the 5th round of rookie/FA drafts last month. If he busts it isn't analogous to the panner that picks up some pyrite. It's more like sitting on the couch while someone else pans for you and *then* finds pyrite.

He is basically free. Panning takes work and time. There is an actual investment there. I don't think a 5th round pick qualifies as that. 

In my 16 team rookie draft last year I got George Kittle as mr irrelevant, last pick of 6th round. Not arguing your larger point but I think all picks remain investments.

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5 hours ago, Just Win Baby said:

Yes, they threw the ball to the TE a lot last season. Then, in this offseason, they replaced their entire WR corps... I mean, literally, there will probably be 5 new WRs on the roster this season. And, obviously, those WRs include 2 very highly paid players in Brown and Tyrell. It is also fair to suggest that Waller is a significant dropoff from Cook at TE. What OAK did with the TE last season has no bearing on what they will do this season.

Well said.

People equating Waller's fantasy relevance to Cook's performance are not appreciating how many weapons this team now has on offense that they didn't have last year.

Brown and Williams, as you mention, but other contributors as well: JJ Nelson, a solid slot WR in Grant and a hyped up-and-comer in Hunter Renfrew.

And, while I believe the Raiders shed at least one of them, they have 2 solid pass catching backs in Richard and Washington, and even Martin has hands. And of course, if the hype is to be believed, Josh Jacobs is the kind of all-purpose back Gruden loves.

Waller, if he himself can live up to his preseason hype, can also contribute. But if this offense truly clicks, there's a lot of mouths to feed and I can't see him getting anywhere the production Cook had. 

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