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Scoring Format - What Do You Like? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
And a followup question: How important is it to you that the game of Fantasy Football mirror the real game?
Things like an average QB playing for a terrible team that will post a lot of points from having to throw a ton. And other examples where a valuable FF player may not be nearly as valuable in real NFL.
I ask as personally, I've never really considered it a big deal. But I know many do.
Thoughts?
J
Things like an average QB playing for a terrible team that will post a lot of points from having to throw a ton. And other examples where a valuable FF player may not be nearly as valuable in real NFL.
I ask as personally, I've never really considered it a big deal. But I know many do.
Thoughts?
J
My post will be a bit of a recap from the other thread, but here goes...
I've never played TD only, but play both 0ppr and 1ppr and enjoy both.
PPR was created to shift value to WR back when the NFL had ten 300 carry RBs per season and the first round was dominated by the RB position. Last year there were only 15 RBs above 200 carries (only 1 guy above 300). The guy finishing #2 in carries last year would've finished #15 in 2000. Even in my 0ppr leagues, the first round is no longer dominated by RB, so it seems ppr is no longer needed. An unfortunate byproduct of the ppr system was that bit players can be scooped up off the waiver wire as garbage time hail mary attempts and specialized role players (Woodhead, 3.5 ypc, and Riddick, 3.1 ypc) become superstars, while early down backs playing critical 3rd/4th and short roles were devalued.
As discussed in the other thread, point per first down seems to be the best solution. A 2 yard 1st down on 4th and 1 would now be worth more than a failed screen pass going for -2 yards on 3rd and 20.
FF will never accurately mirror the NFL but if you are a fan of the game then it does feel better to watch important plays being rewarded than to watch a guy rack up a ton of points while down 21 in the 4th quarter.
I've never played TD only, but play both 0ppr and 1ppr and enjoy both.
PPR was created to shift value to WR back when the NFL had ten 300 carry RBs per season and the first round was dominated by the RB position. Last year there were only 15 RBs above 200 carries (only 1 guy above 300). The guy finishing #2 in carries last year would've finished #15 in 2000. Even in my 0ppr leagues, the first round is no longer dominated by RB, so it seems ppr is no longer needed. An unfortunate byproduct of the ppr system was that bit players can be scooped up off the waiver wire as garbage time hail mary attempts and specialized role players (Woodhead, 3.5 ypc, and Riddick, 3.1 ypc) become superstars, while early down backs playing critical 3rd/4th and short roles were devalued.
As discussed in the other thread, point per first down seems to be the best solution. A 2 yard 1st down on 4th and 1 would now be worth more than a failed screen pass going for -2 yards on 3rd and 20.
FF will never accurately mirror the NFL but if you are a fan of the game then it does feel better to watch important plays being rewarded than to watch a guy rack up a ton of points while down 21 in the 4th quarter.
SKI
Footballguy
While having some relation to actual NFL value is generally a good thing, the reality is that output stats (aka, the things that show up in the boxscores) are not particularly great indicators of actual NFL value. RBs score most of the TDs but aren't taken particularly high in the NFL draft - even more so with kickers.
The goal, IMO, is to have a fun game that plays off our NFL knowledge and provides for the ability for owners to exercise good strategic thinking and actions. That is, there shouldn't be "one best way" to win your league every year. As a result I lean towards long-term heavy keeper/dynasty IDP leagues with deep benches, and very flexible starting lineup requirements and a scoring system that balances across positions eligible for flex spots.
At the same time, you want to be able to have a sense of how your players are doing at a glance, so scoring rules that are fairly easily applied. And it should not be so customized that little or none of the "advice" sites are relevant.
Not trying to rag on you, but it IS kind of funny how the PPR narrative has shifted.
10-15 years ago: RBs are too dominant in the NFL, we need PPR to spread the value around.
Present day: It's a passing league. Get with the times.
I prefer not using ppr, and adding flexibility in roster management through modifying positional requirements. I'm regularly on record believing that ppr has become "a solution in search of a problem."
To be fair, Ive not played in a graduated ppr system, and that might be an effective compromise.
I think the high variance inherrent on td-only has made it a very small niche market. Yardage points reduce variance and increase the relevance of skill. It is an open question, from what Ive seen, whether ppr impacts variance meaningfully.
Edit to add: I am very intrigued by ppfirstdown, and may be trying that as an even better compromise.
To be fair, Ive not played in a graduated ppr system, and that might be an effective compromise.
I think the high variance inherrent on td-only has made it a very small niche market. Yardage points reduce variance and increase the relevance of skill. It is an open question, from what Ive seen, whether ppr impacts variance meaningfully.
Edit to add: I am very intrigued by ppfirstdown, and may be trying that as an even better compromise.
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Ksquared
Footballguy
Having played in a wide variety of league formats for the last 25 years, I have found the incremental PPR best. .5/1/1.5 for RB/WR/TE....it gives value to quality players at each position. My favorite leagues have the approach of acquire the best players (no matter the position) will be rewarded with a scoring system that allows them to form a Championship team.
I used to hate leagues where TE were picked with PK and Def in the last 3 rounds of the draft. Now the ability to give credit for a 1st down has added another layer for the quality players to separate themselves from the average player.
I used to hate leagues where TE were picked with PK and Def in the last 3 rounds of the draft. Now the ability to give credit for a 1st down has added another layer for the quality players to separate themselves from the average player.
Let's see if we can have a real discussion where we talk about what we like. Not telling someone who disagrees with you to get with the times. TIA.
J
I wasn't telling anyone to get with the times! I'm a 0ppr fan. I was saying that's what PPR fans tend to say to justify PPR these days and pointing out how it is a total 180 from the narrative PPR fans used 10-15 years ago. I've actually had that exact quote told to me several times when leagues are voting on PPR.
Cool. Nobody likes being told that - I thought that's what you were saying.
I do think it's a pretty interesting discussion. I'm interested to see how the poll turns out. Currently running at 25% non PPR and that feels about right. It's a good example of how it's always good to be careful with reading forums though.
J
I can see the argument for non ppr. A RB runs for 10yds and a WR makes a catch for 10yds. Why is the WR rewarded with more points for playing his position? Also it's much more likely these days to have a WR go for 100yds than it is for a RB, so the playing field seems pretty level without PPR.
All that being said I still prefer PPR. Maybe because there are not enough decent RB's to go around so with PPR you can still patch a backfield together.
All that being said I still prefer PPR. Maybe because there are not enough decent RB's to go around so with PPR you can still patch a backfield together.
Power Monster
The Midnight Stalker
More points more fun bigger strategy pre-draft. Pro PPR, TDs and PPY
Thanks Fresh. On this, isn't the answer to adjust the points between positions to get what you want?
J
themitch
Footballguy
I agree with this. My uncle was in a TD only league, and scores were super low. Tough to get excited. High scores make people pay attention and get excited, I'm Pro PPR, TDs and PPY.
You're never going to get that "perfect" balance. They'll always be outliers like Woodhead or something. Like a lot of people have said it doesn't matter too much. The most important thing is to understand your league's scoring and value players accordingly.
There are enough leagues of all formats for everyone out there anyways but I'll being playing PPR for the foreseeable future. Preferably .5ppr
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I prefer PPR but I think there are other factors that need to be included in order for it to be preferable. I think you need big rosters, multiple flex spots/fewer required positions, and all TDs should be 6 points.
For example, if you have only have one QB/RB/WR required and couple it with 3, 4, or more flex spots then you force strategy towards the draft - which subsequently rewards the better/more prepared owners. Which order you choose to fill your roster is a huge determining success factor.
Having all TDs be 6 pts adds another strategic decision point in the early rounds - if I take QB early how does that dictate my later actions? Do i want to risk forgoing a good early round RB/WR because I believe I can make up the difference with Player X later? Conversely, so I take the risk that QB Z that I can get in a later round will suffice?
And big rosters limit the potential that someone can luck into a player that will salvage their season just because they were "lucky" enough to be high in the waiver order.
One last thing I like (and it doesn't relate to PPR, sorry!) is including 1 or 2 highest scoring teams as playoff wild card spots that didn't make it by record. I think if your team scores a lot of points then you built a good team and shouldn't be punished because you ran into a bad schedule.
I've found those things combine to reward the prepared, have a safety net for the unlucky, and minimize rewarding the lucky.
A reading from First Andy, Second Opinion...
For example, if you have only have one QB/RB/WR required and couple it with 3, 4, or more flex spots then you force strategy towards the draft - which subsequently rewards the better/more prepared owners. Which order you choose to fill your roster is a huge determining success factor.
Having all TDs be 6 pts adds another strategic decision point in the early rounds - if I take QB early how does that dictate my later actions? Do i want to risk forgoing a good early round RB/WR because I believe I can make up the difference with Player X later? Conversely, so I take the risk that QB Z that I can get in a later round will suffice?
And big rosters limit the potential that someone can luck into a player that will salvage their season just because they were "lucky" enough to be high in the waiver order.
One last thing I like (and it doesn't relate to PPR, sorry!) is including 1 or 2 highest scoring teams as playoff wild card spots that didn't make it by record. I think if your team scores a lot of points then you built a good team and shouldn't be punished because you ran into a bad schedule.
I've found those things combine to reward the prepared, have a safety net for the unlucky, and minimize rewarding the lucky.
A reading from First Andy, Second Opinion...
I prefer ppr. My 16 team league with extremely deep rosters (26 players) ppr gives teams more rb's in the game that can contribute. The NFL is changing with more teams having a 1st/2nd down back and a 3rd down back. PPR makes it so some of those 3rd down backs now have value as a 5th/flex starter which is vital in a 16 team league with deep rosters. Without the ppr some of the teams would be fielding players that you would be lucky to get 5 points from.
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fightingillini
Footballguy
Out of the 3, I picked the PPR, but I actually like 1/2 PPR better.
Personally, the best way to score is to equate the RBs, WRs, and TEs without using PPR. You could have 1 pt for every 10 yards rushing and 1 pt for every 7-8 yards receiving for RBs and WRs (perhaps 1 pt for every 5 yards receiving for TEs). In this format from a yards standpoint, an average 18 touch RB probably scores the same amount as an average WR that catches 4-5 passes for 60 yards. It helps out pass catching RBs without over helping them (think Danny Woodhead). I hate it when Woodhead catches 8 passes for about 35 yards in garbage time.....that would be 11 points in a typical PPR, but in the format I just described, it would give Woodhead 4-5 points, which IMO is much more reasonable. This method gives the best of both worlds.....the non PPR guys like it because it rewards yards gained, and the PPR guys like it becuase the WRs and RBs are on approximately equal footing for their yards.
Personally, the best way to score is to equate the RBs, WRs, and TEs without using PPR. You could have 1 pt for every 10 yards rushing and 1 pt for every 7-8 yards receiving for RBs and WRs (perhaps 1 pt for every 5 yards receiving for TEs). In this format from a yards standpoint, an average 18 touch RB probably scores the same amount as an average WR that catches 4-5 passes for 60 yards. It helps out pass catching RBs without over helping them (think Danny Woodhead). I hate it when Woodhead catches 8 passes for about 35 yards in garbage time.....that would be 11 points in a typical PPR, but in the format I just described, it would give Woodhead 4-5 points, which IMO is much more reasonable. This method gives the best of both worlds.....the non PPR guys like it because it rewards yards gained, and the PPR guys like it becuase the WRs and RBs are on approximately equal footing for their yards.
Dope
Footballguy
I have some data...how do I post an excel table so it doesn't look like a mess?
Basically, over the last 9 years
QB - 18.04 PPG
RB - 11.67 PPG
WR - 11.34 PPG
TE - 10.55 PPG
K - 8.01 PPG
DEF - 7.92 PPG
What do those stats correspond to? For example, what does RB - 11.67 ppg mean? Is that the average scoring for the top 24 RBs over 9 years? Or the average score for RB12?
whatever stats the players give, I want to try and predict that and field the best FF team.
10-15 years ago, fullbacks got more work than they do now. Larry Centers, William Henderson, and Mike Alstott made us FF folks discuss adding a fullback position to FF.
Michael Vick and Steve McNair rushing affected their QB point totals. Now we're headed toward 2016 and Mariota only flashed his speed last year on an 80+ yard run, but those extra rushing possibilities will make him a difficult QB to predict for FF.
Like adding rushing #s to a QB, if we have to add catches to a RB, then we do.
I once played in a league that penalized INTs returned for a TD. That did mirror the feel of the game. I think it was minus nine while a QB TD was 6 points. That is a gut punch while watching a game.
Minus one for FG misses wasn't half bad either. It's got an annoying feel when you're watching so yeah take a point off.
Minus three for missed XP was weird to see in the scoring but when I watched the game, it's 'dead on' The announcers even predictably say after a missed XP "He better make this FG" so year minus 3 and plus 3 (for the FG) was fitting.
I want to roll with whatever stats the players give us.
Dope
Footballguy
Sorry, was in a hurry to get to a meeting.
The RB numbers are every starting RB over the last 9 years...same with the other positions.
It's from MFL --> Reports --> League --> Starter Pts - Postiion
What I was trying to show what scoring looks like in a league that uses modified PPR. (0 for RB, 0.5 for WR, 1 for WR).
It's all good. Seemed like good info... I was just trying to get a feel for what exactly I was looking at. How many RBs and WRs start in your league?
Dope
Footballguy
When I created this league the goal was flexibility in starting lineups.
1 QB
1 RB
2 WR
1 TE
2 Flex
1 K
1 DEF
Dope
Footballguy
Scoring was in my earlier post.
It is modified PPR.
0 PPR for RB, 0.5 PPR for WR, 1 PPR for TE
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I just want to preface this by saying it is important to understand your scoring system and how it works, regardless of what that scoring system is.
While it is impossible to completely match scoring to NFL performance, I think standard scoring systems reflect this more closely than PPR or other scoring modifications do.
I like it when peoples conversations about players and their relative value or worth is actually close to how good those players are relative to others in the NFL.
A few years ago I recall many people (correctly) dismissing Adrian Peterson as an option at the top of the first round because of his limited use in the passing game. Other RB who were getting more receptions (and therefore more combined yards) than Peterson such as Ray Rice were identified as being better RB than Peterson because of the difference in scoring, not because any reasonable person thought Ray Rice was a better player than Peterson. As a Vikings and football fan, I recall this really bothering me.
Peoples ideas and attitudes about players are greatly influenced by the fantasy games they play.
The shift of the NFL to more passing is a strong and ongoing trend. I do not expect this shift to reverse itself any time soon either. Last thing I read on numberfire was talking about most rushing plays providing negative expected points to the drive. When running the ball is decreasing your teams odds to score points, teams will stop running the ball so much.
I have posted the numbers on this several times now. Fact is that in PPR scoring WR score more total points than RB do at every baseline level. In standard scoring systems the RB is closer in total points to the WR than they are in PPR.
My man interest is in the dynasty format of FF. WR have longer productive careers than RB do which makes them more valuable. If you apply PPR to this, the difference becomes multiplied by the scoring system and the long term outlook causing WR to be worth almost twice as much as a similar tier RB.
I don't care how people play. The point is to have fun. I think PPR hurts the competitive balance in dynasty leagues and this is the main format that I care about.
While it is impossible to completely match scoring to NFL performance, I think standard scoring systems reflect this more closely than PPR or other scoring modifications do.
I like it when peoples conversations about players and their relative value or worth is actually close to how good those players are relative to others in the NFL.
A few years ago I recall many people (correctly) dismissing Adrian Peterson as an option at the top of the first round because of his limited use in the passing game. Other RB who were getting more receptions (and therefore more combined yards) than Peterson such as Ray Rice were identified as being better RB than Peterson because of the difference in scoring, not because any reasonable person thought Ray Rice was a better player than Peterson. As a Vikings and football fan, I recall this really bothering me.
Peoples ideas and attitudes about players are greatly influenced by the fantasy games they play.
The shift of the NFL to more passing is a strong and ongoing trend. I do not expect this shift to reverse itself any time soon either. Last thing I read on numberfire was talking about most rushing plays providing negative expected points to the drive. When running the ball is decreasing your teams odds to score points, teams will stop running the ball so much.
I have posted the numbers on this several times now. Fact is that in PPR scoring WR score more total points than RB do at every baseline level. In standard scoring systems the RB is closer in total points to the WR than they are in PPR.
My man interest is in the dynasty format of FF. WR have longer productive careers than RB do which makes them more valuable. If you apply PPR to this, the difference becomes multiplied by the scoring system and the long term outlook causing WR to be worth almost twice as much as a similar tier RB.
I don't care how people play. The point is to have fun. I think PPR hurts the competitive balance in dynasty leagues and this is the main format that I care about.
TZMarkie
Footballguy
I voted for TD+ points per yard.
I'm somewhat oldschool, and I tend to think PPR sways things a bit back too much in the other direction favoring pass catching RBs. (and I've always felt that way)
I have seen some leagues flourish with .5 PPR scoring though, and most of those I have seen have done well over the years.
Lets call a spade a spade here, all PPR is, is basically an alternative/change to how we keep score. Whether people think its good or bad also is closely related to that individuals personal preference and the leagues they play in.
But since I am stating how personal preference may affect things, there is one change that I think could possibly a great move in today's pass heavy league.
That is instead of using the traditional "Start 2 WRs and start 2 RBs" to an altered format. (I have long been a proponent of starting 3WRs, as I have stated many times over the years, every league I am in is start 3WRs)
Consider starting FOUR WRs , ONE RB and a flex. (or two RBs if you really insist)
Everyone in the leagues I play in have all pretty much admitted that starting four WRs is easily doable considering you have so many WRs that you could start.
Note - this also lends itself to larger sized leagues, and 16-18 even 20 team leagues wouldn't be as severely handicapped by scarcity at RB.
Anyway thats a subject for another thread I guess.
QUICK EDIT- I also don't know exactly how much we really want fantasy to mirror the real NFL game. One thing I have learned over the years, is that many of the so called "fish" don't want things to get too complicated. Many of the "fish" I know lose interest when they start following the "Arrelious Benns and Bennie Fowlers" of the world hoping for one catch a game for 20 yards.
They tend to like the scoring easy, basic and simple to understand. Simply put they don't tend to look into things as deeply as many here on the board do, and make a habit out of.
This is a bit of a reach with the above names, but the idea flows to the other positions obviously.
TZM
I'm somewhat oldschool, and I tend to think PPR sways things a bit back too much in the other direction favoring pass catching RBs. (and I've always felt that way)
I have seen some leagues flourish with .5 PPR scoring though, and most of those I have seen have done well over the years.
Lets call a spade a spade here, all PPR is, is basically an alternative/change to how we keep score. Whether people think its good or bad also is closely related to that individuals personal preference and the leagues they play in.
But since I am stating how personal preference may affect things, there is one change that I think could possibly a great move in today's pass heavy league.
That is instead of using the traditional "Start 2 WRs and start 2 RBs" to an altered format. (I have long been a proponent of starting 3WRs, as I have stated many times over the years, every league I am in is start 3WRs)
Consider starting FOUR WRs , ONE RB and a flex. (or two RBs if you really insist)
Everyone in the leagues I play in have all pretty much admitted that starting four WRs is easily doable considering you have so many WRs that you could start.
Note - this also lends itself to larger sized leagues, and 16-18 even 20 team leagues wouldn't be as severely handicapped by scarcity at RB.
Anyway thats a subject for another thread I guess.
QUICK EDIT- I also don't know exactly how much we really want fantasy to mirror the real NFL game. One thing I have learned over the years, is that many of the so called "fish" don't want things to get too complicated. Many of the "fish" I know lose interest when they start following the "Arrelious Benns and Bennie Fowlers" of the world hoping for one catch a game for 20 yards.
They tend to like the scoring easy, basic and simple to understand. Simply put they don't tend to look into things as deeply as many here on the board do, and make a habit out of.
This is a bit of a reach with the above names, but the idea flows to the other positions obviously.
TZM
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candian fantasy guy
Footballguy
I voted PPR because PPR = more points and the more points is best, IMO.
I play in a local league where we auction our first 5 roster spots and then finish off with a snake draft. This league gives 3 points for 100 yards with additional 1 point per 25 yards(not combined) rushing or receiving, plus 6 points per TD. We start 3 RB's, 5 WR/TE, 1 QB, 1 K and 1 DST. Regularly we get low scoring totals like 19, 25, 32, etc.... A total of 60+ is a guaranteed win(most weeks). Numerous players getting zero points and the Kickers are often your teams high scorer, which is just disheartening as a FF player.
I like logging in and seeing my FPC team with a 200 point total, that's some great fun right there!!
I play in a local league where we auction our first 5 roster spots and then finish off with a snake draft. This league gives 3 points for 100 yards with additional 1 point per 25 yards(not combined) rushing or receiving, plus 6 points per TD. We start 3 RB's, 5 WR/TE, 1 QB, 1 K and 1 DST. Regularly we get low scoring totals like 19, 25, 32, etc.... A total of 60+ is a guaranteed win(most weeks). Numerous players getting zero points and the Kickers are often your teams high scorer, which is just disheartening as a FF player.
I like logging in and seeing my FPC team with a 200 point total, that's some great fun right there!!
Thanks Bia.
Can you elaborate on this? How do you think it hurts the competitive balance?
And on the WR / RB angle, isn't the answer to adjust the points for each position to get more what you're looking for?
J
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Well the WR are more valuable than the RB in terms of total points as well as potential useful career length. This is what is imbalanced.
The WR will still be more valuable than the RB in standard dynasty leagues as well, but at the least the total points would be closer, meaning the RB would be worth a bit more towards winning a weekly match up, than they are in a PPR league. So the short term value of the players would at least be closer, or more balanced, while the long term advantage for the WR still remains.
It doesn't hurt competitive balance of the FF owners, who as long as they understand the scoring system are all playing by the same rules. That isn't what I was trying to say.
What I am saying is that the relative value of the RB position compared to the WR is less balanced in terms of total points than they are in standard leagues.
The positional scarcity and starting requirements of the league are other factors of player value, which is what makes having one of the few RB who are still a workhorse for their team very valuable compared to other players at their position, even though they still might not score as many total points as their WR counter parts. The positional scarcity is that teams are splitting opportunities between two or sometimes three different RB, which means they are not getting much more opportunity than WR are in terms of targets and rushing attempts.
The players who are targeted in the passing game get better opportunities than the players who are getting rushing attempts. For a RB the average yards gained on a catch is something like 8 yards which is about twice as much as a yards per carry for a RB. So this is already an advantage in terms of yards. Then the PPR makes these events more valuable than a rushing attempt as well. PPR is counting the same event twice. While ignoring other similarly significant events such as a rushing attempt with no points awarded. So this is imbalanced.
Bia does get it. He's also way better at discussing stuff without dragging it down to name calling with the "moar points" crowd stuff. You should try it.
J
Thanks Bia.
For these things, can't the points be adjusted by position so it's more balanced? (Assuming balance is your goal).
J
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Dope
Footballguy
To me, the critical part of FF is options and flexibility in strategy.
I hated a first round of RB-RB-RB-RB-RB-RB-RB-RB-WR-RB-RB-QB
In my leagues, if you choose a team with 1rb, 4wr, and 1te I want you to be as competitive as a team that goes 2rb, 2wr, 2te. That's why I swear by the modified PPR approach. I knew that the top scorers were relatively even on a season by season basis because i monitored that. Until today however, I never looked at the career average scores.
Over 9 years and over 6000 lineups, the fact that the difference between an average starting RB and an average starting WR being 1/3 of a point is awesome to me. To me it shows that the concept works. The only thing that shocks me is that the numbers suggest that I bump TE scoring up an additional point per reception. I know for a fact that owners already THINK TightEnds are over-powered.
I hated a first round of RB-RB-RB-RB-RB-RB-RB-RB-WR-RB-RB-QB
In my leagues, if you choose a team with 1rb, 4wr, and 1te I want you to be as competitive as a team that goes 2rb, 2wr, 2te. That's why I swear by the modified PPR approach. I knew that the top scorers were relatively even on a season by season basis because i monitored that. Until today however, I never looked at the career average scores.
Over 9 years and over 6000 lineups, the fact that the difference between an average starting RB and an average starting WR being 1/3 of a point is awesome to me. To me it shows that the concept works. The only thing that shocks me is that the numbers suggest that I bump TE scoring up an additional point per reception. I know for a fact that owners already THINK TightEnds are over-powered.
Dope
Footballguy
When I read this, I instantly thought of 2015 Blake Bortles.
IMO, This is all a part of the metagame...it's the game within the game. Is there a player that I believe has the talent and the garbage time opportunity to score points not part of winning a football game? If I am experienced enough to think that through I should be able to reap the benefits of that outside-the-box thinking.
The innerweb and dozens of cheat sheets evens the playing field. Next level thinking is what separates good from great.
As you can tell from my other posts in this thread, I am a huge believer of trying to make things as even as possible.Every rule and scoring value was carefully thought out to level the playing field for everyone. That said, I have been doing this since the USA Today box score days, so I feel that I should be a smidge better than a guy who was watching Virat Kohli win the MVP in IPL last week.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Well I have been invited to join some leagues that award points for rushing attempts, offensive snaps, and so on which is interesting but I have not taken the plunge on that. It does still interest me however if I were to take the time to break down all the offensive snaps (I have done this in past with making projections) but it is also a lot of work and things to keep track of.
As mentioned upthread the most common fantasy player is likely much more casual than this, and would prefer a simple format.
What format could be simpler than standard?
What format most closely resembles how NFL players are measured relative to each other in HOF voting and so on? Standard scoring I think is closer to that.
At times I have seen people making projections from fantasy points based on PPR scoring. These projections are always going to introduce more error to the projections than if you actually project out the teams stats. Those projections would include how many receptions players are expected to get, but it isn't originally baked into the projection.
People have been playing PPR for so long some folks call the format standard now. I think there is a whole generation of players so used to the format that playing standard seems strange to them.
If the goal is balance in relative value between the RB and WR position standard scoring accomplishes that better than any other scoring method imho.
I play in Anarchy's crazy leagues which are 0 PPR for RB 1 PPR for WR and 2 PPR for TE. I play it because its fun.
For dynasty I am always concerned about the long term fairness to help keep the league viable. So I get a bit more serious about the fairness and balance of scoring in those formats. The goal isn't so much balance for me as it is supporting as many different strategies for building a team as possible. PPR scoring forces owners to respect that or lose competitive advantage.
To illustrate this here is the April ADP for PPR dynasty leagues.
1. Odell Beckham WR1 1.25 -0.08 [1,3]2. Antonio Brown WR2 2.92 0.14 [2,4]3. DeAndre Hopkins WR3 3.08 0.31 [2,5]4. Julio Jones WR4 4.33 0.11 [2,6]5. Allen Robinson WR5 5.00 0.56 [1,8]6. Amari Cooper WR6 6.75 -0.81 [5,8]7. Todd Gurley RB1 7.25 -0.42 [3,11]8. Mike Evans WR7 9.17 1.17 [7,14]9. Rob Gronkowski TE1 9.33 0.44 [1,13]10. Sammy Watkins WR8 9.92 0.03 [5,15]11. Dez Bryant WR9 11.42 -1.36 [6,15]12. LeVeon Bell RB2 11.58 1.25 [6,16]13. A.J. Green WR10 12.17 -0.61 [7,14]14. Keenan Allen WR11 14.08 0.42 [11,17]15. Alshon Jeffery WR12 14.67 -0.33 [9,17]16. Ezekiel Elliott RB3 R1 15.25 -4.97 [9,19]17. Brandin Cooks WR13 15.92 0.36 [12,18]18. David Johnson RB4 18.75 -2.92 [14,24]19. Jarvis Landry WR14 20.33 -3.11 [17,24]20. Demaryius Thomas WR15 21.25 3.36 [16,32]21. DeVante Parker WR16 22.33 3.44 [19,29]22. Randall Cobb WR17 23.92 0.81 [18,30]23. Jordan Matthews WR18 25.92 -2.53 [20,30]24. T.Y. Hilton WR19 25.92 1.58 [20,36]25. Lamar Miller RB5 26.08 -3.81 [20,34]26. Kevin White WR20 26.50 4.06 [22,38]27. Kelvin Benjamin WR21 26.58 0.69 [20,35]28. Devonta Freeman RB6 27.58 -2.42 [18,37]29. Donte Moncrief WR22 27.67 -1.44 [18,33]30. Jordy Nelson WR23 30.42 -2.25 [21,37]31. Dorial Green-Beckham WR24 33.33 2.67 [25,44]32. Cam Newton QB1 33.67 -2.89 [21,47]33. Laquon Treadwell WR25 R2 34.25 4.36 [23,50]34. Andrew Luck QB2 34.67 -2.22 [27,47]35. Jeremy Maclin WR26 36.92 -3.64 [29,47]36. Corey Coleman WR27 R3 39.17 -4.06 [32,58]37. Josh Doctson WR28 R4 40.67 5.11 [33,57]38. Michael Floyd WR29 40.83 2.28 [31,57]39. Doug Martin RB7 41.58 -3.75 [25,56]40. Tyler Eifert TE2 41.83 -4.94 [26,51]41. Eddie Lacy RB8 42.25 -5.53 [27,55]42. Adrian Peterson RB9 44.17 -16.39 [24,54]43. Aaron Rodgers QB3 46.08 -4.25 [30,57]44. Jordan Reed TE3 46.25 -6.75 [36,59]45. Brandon Marshall WR30 46.42 1.64 [33,72]46. Mark Ingram RB10 49.75 0.64 [36,60]47. Tyler Lockett WR31 49.83 4.61 [35,61]48. John Brown WR32 50.00 4.11 [41,62]49. Carlos Hyde RB11 50.33 -6.11 [37,63]50. Thomas Rawls RB12 50.67 6.89 [27,68]
32 of the top 50 players are WR. 64% 19 of the top 25 are WR 76%
DropKick
Footballguy
The most frequent complaint about PPR is the reception for a loss and the disconnect between awarding points for a negative play. I don't dwell on that because the player does lose points for the yardage and there are other plays that aren't always "fair". There are fullbacks who are hugely important to their teams who let others reap the benefit of their effort. A QB can lose points on an interception when the receiver knocks the ball into the air; he can lose yardage on a kneel down; he can throw a pick on a Hail Mary. A receiver doesn't get credited on a defensive pass interference call... Players ring up fantasy points like a pinball machine when the game is hopelessly out of reach. In reality, they're only contributing to betting lines not truly helping their team.
So rather than focusing on the exception, why not recognize that receptions are positive plays that help move the chains, improve field position, control the clock and maintain possession of the football?
Just as some use a strategy of targeting players likely to compile garbage time points, others target receiving backs. This might help one target WRs earlier in the draft. More angles to play the game is a positive... Overall, PPR creates more viable players, which is especially important in larger leagues. At the end of the day, everyone fields teams meeting the same roster requirements - so it isn't like PPR gives one team an advantage.
Another complaint is that it devalues RBs. I think it creates mega-studs out of the guys who do/did it all, such as Marshall Faulk, Tomlinson, Forte or Edgerrin James. It only devalues backs who don't catch the ball. The shift toward passing in general and the increase of RBBC has been a bigger contributor to devaluation. There was a stretch of time recently where even the NFL wasn't drafting backs in the first round.
Finding that gem RB is still a big part of the fantasy game. Try prying Gurley or this years 1.01 from someone.
Dope
Footballguy
Agree...PPR for dynasty is not ideal.
Standard scoring in Dynasty is the fairest due to the differences in career longevity. If you hit on 2 or 3 elite WRs in a PPR you are set for close to a decade. Same 2 or 3 elite RB is 5 years tops.
Although the goal in dynasty is to create a super team year after year, 3 guys shouldn't provide that super team. It should be harder than that.
My dynasty league is starting it's 18th season. Non PPR scoring. 14 teams.
Only 7 ownership changes in history. A retention rate of 97.22%. Because even though not everyone wins the title, everyone at least feels like they are a year or two away.
Standard scoring in Dynasty is the fairest due to the differences in career longevity. If you hit on 2 or 3 elite WRs in a PPR you are set for close to a decade. Same 2 or 3 elite RB is 5 years tops.
Although the goal in dynasty is to create a super team year after year, 3 guys shouldn't provide that super team. It should be harder than that.
My dynasty league is starting it's 18th season. Non PPR scoring. 14 teams.
Only 7 ownership changes in history. A retention rate of 97.22%. Because even though not everyone wins the title, everyone at least feels like they are a year or two away.
DropKick
Footballguy
I don't see the need to equalize the positions via the scoring system.
The league is pass happy right now. There is also a lack of great backs. Looking at our last season's final numbers.. after the top 10 backs... you're looking at Ivory, McFadden, Gore. OK - but not high on my impact list.
So, two things... who do you think is getting bumped down and how different would those percentages be without PPR?
spider321
Footballguy
Correct.
PPR is never ideal, but people that only play redraft are less likely to understand the nuances.
Perhaps there should be a separate poll for dynasty leagues.
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cstu
Footballguy
.5 PPR seems like a cheap fix for the real problem - player not being rewarded points based on the actual value of their plays.
cstu
Footballguy
I agree - the combination of the highest scoring position with players with long careers is a detriment to dynasty.
