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Black lives matter (3 Viewers)

rascal

Footballguy
First, I'm a suburban white guy so I won't pretend to understand the fear/plight/anger that the average black person feels.  I see the horrible events in black Minnesota and baton rouge,  but then I see whites victims of police or police being executed so I can't help but think it's a universal problem (see dallas pd, st louis officer being executed earlier this week, dylan noble, or Daniel shaver).

Second, I am attempting to understand, and where possible support, but when I see BLM chanting death to cops or whites I can no longer support and frankly get scared myself.  I know it's not the message promoted by most of their leaders, but when it's prevalent in most protests it's hard to separate.

Third, what can I/we do to help bring our country together?  Posting on Facebook or fbgs isn't going to accomplish anything.

 
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I heard someone say recently, that there is no such thing as "black on black" crime.  It's just crime.  The reason for that is because there is nothing inherently racial about the crime.

http://usuncut.com/black-lives-matter/black-on-black-crime/
Uhhhhhhhh....

"The FBI’s homicide statistics, rallying murders for the 28 years between 1980 and 2008, don’t lie. An overwhelming majority of homicides were carried out by white people, against other white people. Even though the ratio of black homicides against black victims is greater, the number of white murderers far exceeds the number of black murderers. The fact that no media outlet will say the words “white-on-white murder” despite this statistic shows a desire to bend words to confirm racist viewpoints."

Someone doesn't understand statistics.

 
I loathe the term "black on black" crime. 

Like, it really pisses me off. It's a racist term meant to deflect from the issue of police brutality. 

But I've long come to the conclusion that white people have a knee-jerk reaction of deflection when it comes to calling out racism. 

"Black" sounding names and resume discrimination - stop naming your kids dumb, ghetto names. 

Black teenager gets killed walking in his own neighborhood - stop acting like a thug 

police brutality - what about black-on-black crime? 

Even in the 60s, whites were polled and the majority felt racism wasn't an issue. :lmao:  

I'm sick of it.

 
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Id agree if its done as a deflection.  I think the point is...when you are chanting death to cops and death to whites...your cause loses any credibility.

Added to that, "black lives matter" would sound better, if there seemed to be any attempts to keep the so-called "black on black" violence down or do something about it.  But its not discussed as a problem and often celebrated by artists.

Thats not racism...thats a factual observation of what has gone on in society.

Police brutality is also a problem, though, some of the examples used by this movement are pretty bad ones.

 
swirvenirvin said:
if black lives mattered really cared about black lives dont you think they would do something about the black on black crime in chicago and other cities?
From the BLM website:

http://blacklivesmatter.com/11-major-misconceptions-about-the-black-lives-matter-movement/

11 Major Misconceptions About the Black Lives Matter Movement

[...]

1. The movement doesn’t care about black-on-black crime. The idea that black-on-black crime is not a significant political conversation among black people is patently false. In Chicago, long maligned for its high rates of intraracial murder, members of the community created the Violence Interrupters to disrupt violent altercations before they escalate. However, those who insist on talking about black-on-black crime frequently fail to acknowledge that most crime is intraracial. Ninety-three percent of black murder victims are killed by other black people. Eighty-four percent of white murder victims are killed by other white people. The continued focus on black-on-black crime is a diversionary tactic, whose goal is to suggest that black people don’t have the right to be outraged about police violence in vulnerable black communities, because those communities have a crime problem.

The Black Lives Matter movement acknowledges the crime problem, but it refuses to locate that crime problem as a problem of black pathology. Black people are not inherently more violent or more prone to crime than other groups. But black people are disproportionately poorer, more likely to be targeted by police and arrested, and more likely to attend poor or failing schools. All of these social indicators place one at greater risk for being either a victim or a perpetrator of violent crime. To reduce violent crime, we must fight to change systems, rather than demonizing people.

 
sho nuff said:
Like many movements, a legitimate issue gets all messed up by a lunatic side of the movement.
The problem is even calling it legitimate, since it was based on the death of Michael Brown, which was proven to not be a white cop killing a black guy in cold blood.  The whole "hands up, don't shoot" mantra, which was the inspiration for the BLM movement, was a farce.  

 
swirvenirvin said:
if black lives mattered really cared about black lives dont you think they would do something about the black on black crime in chicago and other cities?
They can only do/care about one thing at a time? 

The members of the NRA can only care about making sure everyone has a weapon whenever they want one? 

Pro-lifers can only care about saving children from abortion? Why won't they do something about child predators? 

 
The problem is even calling it legitimate, since it was based on the death of Michael Brown, which was proven to not be a white cop killing a black guy in cold blood.  The whole "hands up, don't shoot" mantra, which was the inspiration for the BLM movement, was a farce.  
Not true, it started with the Trayvon Martin shooting, although it gained national prominence with the Brown killing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_Matter

In 2013, the movement began with the use of the hashtag #BlackLivesMatter on social media, after the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the shooting death of African-American teen Trayvon Martin.

 
At this point, BLM should just be ignored. They have no credibility based on the way they have carried out the movement. There was an original valid point, but in addition to their actions, they chose the wrong cases to rally behind. 
:goodposting:  

The goal of the movement is obviously admirable, but the way they've gone about it and the tactics they've used have been a disaster. 

 
From the BLM website:

http://blacklivesmatter.com/11-major-misconceptions-about-the-black-lives-matter-movement/

11 Major Misconceptions About the Black Lives Matter Movement

[...]

1. The movement doesn’t care about black-on-black crime. The idea that black-on-black crime is not a significant political conversation among black people is patently false. In Chicago, long maligned for its high rates of intraracial murder, members of the community created the Violence Interrupters to disrupt violent altercations before they escalate. However, those who insist on talking about black-on-black crime frequently fail to acknowledge that most crime is intraracial. Ninety-three percent of black murder victims are killed by other black people. Eighty-four percent of white murder victims are killed by other white people. The continued focus on black-on-black crime is a diversionary tactic, whose goal is to suggest that black people don’t have the right to be outraged about police violence in vulnerable black communities, because those communities have a crime problem.

The Black Lives Matter movement acknowledges the crime problem, but it refuses to locate that crime problem as a problem of black pathology. Black people are not inherently more violent or more prone to crime than other groups. But black people are disproportionately poorer, more likely to be targeted by police and arrested, and more likely to attend poor or failing schools. All of these social indicators place one at greater risk for being either a victim or a perpetrator of violent crime. To reduce violent crime, we must fight to change systems, rather than demonizing people.
I totally agree with this, but the BLM movement has been based on the founding idea that cops are killing blacks unjustly and disproportionately and presumably for racist reasons.

I think what bothers me is that BLM does not argue or work for real systemic reform. They also pick poor battles to fight. Arguably any reform would benefit all people of all races. Their main point of reform, which I agree with, is that police should be prosecuted when they act wrongly. However they do not have even one pelt on the wall to date. None of the policemen so charged or accused have indeed been proved to have been guilty of murder or manslaughter. Not only that, there is no indication that where they were so charged that they wouldn't have been charged before BLM where it would have been called for. Finally they also seem entirely driven by the ad hoc occurrences of the media simply showing disturbing videos where it appears at first glance that someone black was wrongly killed by police. That respect they appear to be purely a creature of the media' making and sort fo a feature of its news programming now.

 
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The defense of "black on black crime needing to be solved " is a smarmy roadblock where the user of the phrase deflects the real issue at hand because they know there's no way to accomplish(at the truest sense) that unobtainable goal.  

 
rascal said:
First, I'm a suburban white guy so I won't pretend to understand the fear/plight/anger that the average black person feels.  I see the horrible events in black Minnesota and baton rouge,  but then I see whites victims of police or police being executed so I can't help but think it's a universal problem (see dallas pd, st louis officer being executed earlier this week, dylan noble, or Daniel shaver).

Second, I am attempting to understand, and where possible support, but when I see BLM chanting death to cops or whites I can no longer support and frankly get scared myself.  I know it's not the message promoted by most of their leaders, but when it's prevalent in most protests it's hard to separate.

Third, what can I/we do to help bring our country together?  Posting on Facebook or fbgs isn't going to accomplish anything.
McGarnicle touched on it pretty well.  Treat people with respect - the same way you'd want to be treated.  Irrespective or color or creed or who you're voting for.  Just here on FBGs is a microcosm of the attitudes of many Americans these days. I don't give a #### if you're voting for Hillary, Donald Trump, Bill Belichick or Darth Vader - you're still a person, that deserves respect IMO.  The way we can talk to each other even here on FBGs is pretty disgusting all because one has a different political opinion, football team, personality, or sometimes for a reason even more trivial than that.  Calling mass groups of people idiots, morons, bigots, racists, liberals, conservatives, babies, tools, whiners, etc is the root of every problem in this country and it happens.  

Less of talking about what makes us different, more talking about what we have in common would go such a huge way from FBG to FBook to Real Life.

 
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rascal said:
First, I'm a suburban white guy so I won't pretend to understand the fear/plight/anger that the average black person feels.  I see the horrible events in black Minnesota and baton rouge,  but then I see whites victims of police or police being executed so I can't help but think it's a universal problem (see dallas pd, st louis officer being executed earlier this week, dylan noble, or Daniel shaver).

Second, I am attempting to understand, and where possible support, but when I see BLM chanting death to cops or whites I can no longer support and frankly get scared myself.  I know it's not the message promoted by most of their leaders, but when it's prevalent in most protests it's hard to separate.

Third, what can I/we do to help bring our country together?  Posting on Facebook or fbgs isn't going to accomplish anything.
Bang a black chick.  You'll feel better about race relations. 

 
Suburban white guy here, so like others, I have a difficult time internalizing the cause.  So I ventured over to the BLM website just become more familiar with the "movement".  For those interested in understanding BLM more, here are the guiding principles behind Black Lives Matter as reported on their website...

Diversity:  We are committed to acknowledging, respecting and celebrating difference(s) and commonalities.

Globalism:  We see ourselves as part of the global Black family and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black folk who exist in different parts of the world

Black Women:  We are committed to building a Black women affirming space free from sexism, misogyny, and male‐centeredness.

Black Villages:  We are committed to disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, and especially “our” children to the degree that mothers, parents and children are comfortable.

Loving Engagement:  We are committed to embodying and practicing justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.

Restorative Justice:  We are committed to collectively, lovingly and courageously working vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension all people. As we forge our path, we intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

Collective Value:  We are guided by the fact all Black lives, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status or location

Empathy:  We are committed to practicing empathy; we engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

Queer Affirming:  We are committed to fostering a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking or, rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual unless s/he or they disclose otherwise.

Unapologetically Black:  We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a necessary prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

Transgender Affirming:  We are committed to embracing and making space for trans brothers and sisters to participate and lead. We are committed to being self-reflexive and doing the work required to dismantle cis-gender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

Black Families:  We are committed to making our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We are committed to dismantling the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” that require them to mother in private even as they participate in justice work.

Intergenerational:  We are committed to fostering an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, shows up with capacity to lead and learn.

 
I totally agree with this, but the BLM movement has been based on the founding idea that cops are killing blacks unjustly and disproportionately and presumably for racist reasons.

I think what bothers me is that BLM does not argue or work for real systemic reform. They also pick poor battles to fight. Arguably any reform would benefit all people of all races. Their main point of reform, which I agree with, is that police should be prosecuted when they act wrongly. However they do not have even one pelt on the wall to date. None of the policemen so charged or accused have indeed been proved to have been guilty of murder or manslaughter. Not only that, there is no indication that where they were so charged that they wouldn't have been charged before BLM where it would have been called for. Finally they also seem entirely driven by the ad hoc occurrences of the media simply showing disturbing videos where it appears at first glance that someone black was wrongly killed by police. That respect they appear to be purely a creature of the media' making and sort fo a feature of its news programming now.
I don't agree with that. Michael Slager has been charged with murder for shooting Walter Scott 5 times in the back. He hasn't been tried yet, but I don't think he skates on that. Plus there are federal charges for violating Scott’s civil rights and unlawfully using a weapon during the commission of a crime. In addition, he was charged with obstruction of justice as a result of his statement to state investigators that Scott was moving toward him with the Taser when he shot him. Slager is going way for a period of time.

And the lack of convictions doesn't mean this movement has been a failure. The goal was to bring attention to disproportionate police brutality against blacks, and they have succeeded.

 
I don't agree with that. Michael Slager has been charged with murder for shooting Walter Scott 5 times in the back. He hasn't been tried yet, but I don't think he skates on that. Plus there are federal charges for violating Scott’s civil rights and unlawfully using a weapon during the commission of a crime. In addition, he was charged with obstruction of justice as a result of his statement to state investigators that Scott was moving toward him with the Taser when he shot him. Slager is going way for a period of time.

And the lack of convictions doesn't mean this movement has been a failure. The goal was to bring attention to disproportionate police brutality against blacks, and they have succeeded.
I admit to not knowing about the details or status of the Slager case. - But question: would he be facing prosecution if BLM had never existed?

Also I'm in support of the idea of BLM but only in the context of larger police and civic reform. I absolutely believe this begins and ends in the cities and it should start with transparency and accountability measures. I just have not heard from BLM on such things yet.

 
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Black Villages:  We are committed to disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, and especially “our” children to the degree that mothers, parents and children are comfortable.
Start here. I have my reservations about the statement of disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure. This sounds like altering the recipe because you don't have the right ingredients. 

 
Id agree if its done as a deflection.  I think the point is...when you are chanting death to cops and death to whites...your cause loses any credibility.

Added to that, "black lives matter" would sound better, if there seemed to be any attempts to keep the so-called "black on black" violence down or do something about it.  But its not discussed as a problem and often celebrated by artists.

Thats not racism...thats a factual observation of what has gone on in society.

Police brutality is also a problem, though, some of the examples used by this movement are pretty bad ones.
You are wrong when saying it's not discussed 

It's discussed every Sunday in black churches all over the country. 

Sure there isn't any national TV coverage and there isn't an official national organization with a fancy hashtag but it's being discussed all the damn time 

 
I admit to not knowing about the Slager case. - But question: would he be facing prosecution if BLM had never existed?

Also I'm in support of the idea of BLM but only in the context of larger police and civic reform. I absolutely believe this begins and ends in the cities and it should start with transparency and accountability measures. I just have not heard from BLM on such things yet.
He was filmed with a smart phone which blacks were encouraged by the BLM organization to use when they viewed police encounters. If the video didn't exist he wouldn't have been prosecuted. Hard to find direct causation, but BLM brought national media attention to this, which may have been swept under the rug otherwise. Once again, the results as far as numbers of prosecutions/convictions are not as important as the attention BLM has brought to this issue.

 
The problem is even calling it legitimate, since it was based on the death of Michael Brown, which was proven to not be a white cop killing a black guy in cold blood.  The whole "hands up, don't shoot" mantra, which was the inspiration for the BLM movement, was a farce.  
The incident not legit...but i think its an issue that overall was.

 
Who said it did? The claim was that BLM origins were starting in response to the death of Michael Brown, which wasn't true.
I agree, but obviously their driving reason for existence today is police reform, or rather prosecuting police.

 
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Fine, the Michael Brown incident popularized the movement, so the popularity of the movement was based on a lie.  Way to go. 
Geez. It wasn't just about the Michael Brown case. The movement was not based on that one incident. And saying the movement is based on a lie is about as relevant as saying the KKK was started by Democrats (at this point no really cares about the origins, it is what they done since then).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_Matter

Since the Ferguson protests, participants in the movement have demonstrated against the deaths of numerous other African Americans by police actions or while in police custody, including those of Tamir Rice, Eric Harris, Walter Scott, Jonathan Ferrell, Sandra Bland, Samuel DuBose, and Freddie Gray, which led to protests and rioting in Baltimore. In the summer of 2015, Black Lives Matter began to publicly challenge politicians—including politicians in the 2016 United States presidential election—to state their positions on BLM issues. The overall Black Lives Matter movement, however, is a decentralized network and has no formal hierarchy or structure.[3]

 
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The irony here is that their influence isn't as far-reaching as they hoped it would be. It riles up the people who want any reason to be riled up, but is either presidential candidate taking them seriously?  Hillary will give them lip service to keep them relatively happy, but you know that is not a boat she is jumping on with two feet.  And Trump obviously won't go near them.  Heck, even the president doesn't appear to have a lot of regard for them, considering he said the other day that "all lives matter," a phrase one of BLM's founders has said is racist. Apparently even our black president disagrees with that absurd notion.  :thumbup: :thumbup:

 
Suburban white guy here, so like others, I have a difficult time internalizing the cause.  So I ventured over to the BLM website just become more familiar with the "movement".  For those interested in understanding BLM more, here are the guiding principles behind Black Lives Matter as reported on their website...

Diversity:  We are committed to acknowledging, respecting and celebrating difference(s) and commonalities.

Globalism:  We see ourselves as part of the global Black family and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black folk who exist in different parts of the world

Black Women:  We are committed to building a Black women affirming space free from sexism, misogyny, and male‐centeredness.

Black Villages:  We are committed to disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, and especially “our” children to the degree that mothers, parents and children are comfortable.

Loving Engagement:  We are committed to embodying and practicing justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.

Restorative Justice:  We are committed to collectively, lovingly and courageously working vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension all people. As we forge our path, we intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

Collective Value:  We are guided by the fact all Black lives, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status or location

Empathy:  We are committed to practicing empathy; we engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

Queer Affirming:  We are committed to fostering a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking or, rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual unless s/he or they disclose otherwise.

Unapologetically Black:  We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a necessary prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

Transgender Affirming:  We are committed to embracing and making space for trans brothers and sisters to participate and lead. We are committed to being self-reflexive and doing the work required to dismantle cis-gender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

Black Families:  We are committed to making our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We are committed to dismantling the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” that require them to mother in private even as they participate in justice work.

Intergenerational:  We are committed to fostering an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, shows up with capacity to lead and learn.
Yet actions speak louder than words. Yesterday, BLM held a candlelight vigil in Spokane. I didn't go but I talked to someone who did (a white woman). It was peaceful, and attended by more than just black people.  Not every BLM protest is tacticaly poorly done.

 
Black Villages:  We are committed to disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, and especially “our” children to the degree that mothers, parents and children are comfortable.
I find this one really amazing. Instead of acknowledging illegitimacy is a problem they simply dismiss the nuclear family as some kind of false ideal forced on them by the "West"? How are these villages working out?

 
I find this one really amazing. Instead of acknowledging illegitimacy is a problem they simply dismiss the nuclear family as some kind of false ideal forced on them by the "West"? How are these villages working out?
Wtf is this.  I mean really

 

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