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Black lives matter (2 Viewers)

igbomb said:
Many of those have gotten worse across the board, not just in black communities. Also, while I don't know the stats for the black community specifically, the income gap has grown tremendously between rich and poor in the last 35 years. The poorest are getting poorer. 
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Up, yes, but not to those huge numbers.  I mean we're talking about nearly 3 in 4 births of black children being to unwed mothers.  Of those remaining that are married, there is a greater chance of divorce before that child graduates from high school. 

And I understand that there is an income gap, and one that's growing.  But it's there for other races as well.  Why do we have such a lower crime rate among other races, and lower divorce rate, and higher graduation rates, as well as and higher birth rates to married couples?  How could all of those be anything other than "culture"?

 
matttyl said:
Up, yes, but not to those huge numbers.  I mean we're talking about nearly 3 in 4 births of black children being to unwed mothers.  Of those remaining that are married, there is a greater chance of divorce before that child graduates from high school. 

And I understand that there is an income gap, and one that's growing.  But it's there for other races as well.  Why do we have such a lower crime rate among other races, and lower divorce rate, and higher graduation rates, as well as and higher birth rates to married couples?  How could all of those be anything other than "culture"?
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Interesting.  I wonder if we were to look back at US history if we would see that perhaps there are some systemic reasons that one race hasn't achieved as much socioeconomic success as another.  

 
Dr Oadi said:
They drop out of school because they are poor...we need universal this universal that. Give me give me give me. 

Liberalism. The never ending circle of dependency
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Oh, back to being a conservative I see. That didn't last long.

Definitely for the best, as you weren't a convincing liberal and it seemed more like bad performance art than anything else. Hard to carry off a convincing caricature when you are speaking in clichés and don't understand the viewpoint of those you are mocking.

Although seeing you push the buttons of some of the other conservatives who took you seriously was amusing.  :lol:

 
Funkley said:
I live a mile from the St Anthony City Hall, my kids go to school there and I've met almost all of the police officers in St Anthony at one time or another. Are any of them racist? Who knows what is really in a person's heart but my feeling is that none of them wake up in the morning and want to hurt or kill a black man that day. But I do think that behavior is learned and what is happening in our communities isn't about hate, it's about fear. Why is a white officer more afraid of pulling over a car of African American's than pulling over a car of Caucasians? Is is because statistically he's in more danger? I doubt he's looking at it that way.....he's just simply more afraid. It sickens me but how do you change that? 

Not sure I'm putting this the way I mean too but I think this is less about hate and more about fear. I'm not sure what's worse.
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:goodposting:

Where are our leaders?  Stop digging in.  Put the guns away and put a hand out. Show on both sides there is nothing to fear. The more aggression that is shown the more fear will divide us. 

 
avoiding injuries said:
Definitely real. Same thing happened in Baltimore last year after the riots. 

I commented about gangster rap earlier as a joke, but the more posts I read and all the things listed in our societal issues, sounds like it's coming from an actual song. 
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That's why I keep asking what the endgame of BLM is. If it's a less intrusive line of policing, this seems to be the inevitable means to an end.  

 
Smack Tripper said:
That's why I keep asking what the endgame of BLM is. If it's a less intrusive line of policing, this seems to be the inevitable means to an end.  
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From listening to their spokespeople, I don't think there is any endgame. It is not at all like the movement for gay marriage, which had a specific goal in mind. There is no specific goal here. Reminds me of Occupy Wall Street. 

 
Screamfest on Fox - Megan Kelly show. Pure comedy. Some serious dumbasses in that crowd. Dumb ### woman saying we need to abolish the police. :lmao:

 
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whiskey7 said:
I don't think anyone here has denied most crime is intra-racial. I believe people are pointing to the "black on black" crime because the BLM group looks pretty fraudulent when they throw a major fit any time a black person is killed by a cop but there does not appear to be nearly the same outrage when a black person is killed by another black person. Just last week here in MN, a black guy was killed by a cop during a traffic stop and a 2yr old black child was killed during a drive-by. 15month old child was also hit during the same incident but fortunately was not killed. One of those stories is all over the news all over the country. One of those stories has people demonstrating/protesting/fighting mad/etc all over the country. Why are people mad enough over the one to block 94, insult/antagonize and throw rocks/fireworks/rebar/etc at cops but not go through the streets of Mpls and chant "##### the POS cowards that shot this little boy!!"? Its no secret there are parts of town where black people are committing violent crimes against other black people at a rate far higher than the number of people the police have killed. If BLM gathered in the streets there, they may prevent some of the violence. They may apply some pressure to the scumbags who do the killing. Yet BLM chooses the MOA, MSP airport, MN State Fair, Twin Cities Marathon (thankfully, only a threat), major freeways, etc to have their protests?  Why is that?
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BECAUSE BLACK LIVES DON'T MATTER.
Quick...
-name the last 5 major newsworthy child kidnappings.
-name the last 5 major newsworthy woman murder/disapearances  

Notice a theme? None of them are black, they are usually white kids or attractive white woman.
The only black victims that sell TV ratings are when those victims are at the hands of white people.

As far as why don't BLM protest in their own streets where their own kind openly kill each other....I will try to make an example that will probably fall really flat but here it goes.

You and your 7 brothers...
A bunch of rowdy ### boys, always beating the crap out of each other. Yesterday Tommy came home with a broken nose caused by an elbow from Bobby. They all fight like cats and dogs growing up. Stitches, bruises, broken bones etc..They have their own little sibling cliques over the years but this is life though and they are family. 
One day, Jerome from the other side of the tracks is beating the crap out of Tommy. That moment, in that instance all the other 7 siblings come together and chase Jerome down the street beating the crap out of him and pick up Tommy and carry him home to safety. Why? Jerome was barely laying a beating on Tommy and because while they may hate each other at times, they are family...and as much as you may hate each other you stick together when confronted by an outsider....after that? Back to Tommy/Bobby beating the crap out of each other.

It's the same for black communities. When they kill each other....it's a "family" problem if you will but when an outsider kills a black person, it galvanizes them and brings out the us against them mentality. Yesterday they were looking to kill each other..today....they have a common enemy....Bob....tomorrow? back to killing each other.

When that outsider is a cop...specifically a white cop....it just evokes so much baggage of how things have not changed in their neighborhoods. There is so much distrust of the police that they want to pool their efforts to protest them. Jerome rolling up with an uzi can be dealt with in their hood....for starters, get your own uzi....but Bob being a cop in your neighborhood? You have no defense. Bob can and has legally harmed people in your neighborhood hiding behind a badge. How do you let the world know what is going on? You can't use your uzi.... you have told Bob's boss, you have told the local news and nothing has worked....so.....you protest and disrupt as much of Bob's life....in Bobs neighborhood.....and eventually it gets violent...the kind of violence Bob has inflicted in your neighborhood for the last 20-40 years.

 
I have been working on a project that has me working 1.5 blocks from the shooting site at a greenhouse/artist studio. So, I get to drive, or bike by the actual site two or three times a day. Makes me sad each and every time. The turn lane where he was pulled over and shot is blocked off. There are hundreds of notes written in chalk on the sidewalk, and an equal amount of flowers placed on the ground. Similar site across the street. It appears they are no longer allowing people to be on the south side of the street where it actually happened, so folks have congregated across the street.

The studio I am working at has a black lives matters sign up on their space. They have been vandalized a couple times. Nothing major, but a broken window and some #### thrown at their space. I was working most of the night there and noticed nothing out of the ordinary. Had quite a few neighbors come up and talk to me just because of the nature of the weird ### project I am working on.

:shrug;

Just a glimpse for you folks of what it is like around here

 
parasaurolophus said:
It isnt so simple, in the context of police shootings at least. The actions of the community are critically important for improving police/citizen relations. 

There are situations where historically good cops, that are themselves minorities, jump to conclusions about the actions of a black suspect and pull the trigger. You wont be able to teach away that instinct to protect one's own safety when they are put in situations that are repeatedly proven to be dangerous. Police see the same videos of citizen on citizen crime where out of nowhere a gun is pulled and somebody is dead. In fact I bet they see it more because our media doesn't often show black on black crime in the news. 

So not only do we need to weed out the bad cops, we need to change the expectations of the good cops. The only way to do that is if the situations improve and become less dangerous, not if the good cops simply stop being afraid. That is an unfair expectation and will simply not work.
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You are right. The actions of the community are very important. To me, the actions of the police are even more critically important for improving police/citizen relations.
How does that same community deal with cops openly abusing their power and getting away with it? 
That would make even the good citizens hopelessly turn bad.
I mean, the officers in the Rodney King verdict. All not guilty....what has changed in the last 30 years to show we are trying to earn back the trust of those citizens?
Body cams are a start. I think they are worthwhile but I think they are more so used to protect cops form false accusations....and yes, they do confirm a cops side of the story which is very helpful.

In regards to police and excessive force you can take an major article from 1986, 1996, 2006 or 2016. Just the same story...nothing has really changed except the date.
It would be helpful to tell not only blacks but all people...here is what we doing to try to curb all the police killings of civilians.....because you know.....we don't WANT to kill you all.
I mean, shouldn't that be something all departments strive for? Not resorting to killing people?

How about...hey America...instead of giving all our officers a gun after 18 weeks of training we are now going to make sure our officers show they are capable of handling a gun AND the stressful situations of being a police officer....simultaneously 

From now on the 1st 2 years an officer will work with no gun but will work with a more experienced officer that does have a gun.
If a gunless officer receives a substantiated claim of excessive force towards a perp in those 2 years, he will go into a program that will closely monitor the officer and that program will determine if the 2 year gunless period needs to be extended or if you just are not suited to carry a gun. I mean, if you have a hard time controlling your aggression maybe giving you a gun isn't the best idea. In those 2 years valuable lessons can be learned  on how to handle situations that do not resort to simply pulling a gun on someone.

I know, you are right. This is crazy and will get a cop killed....but maybe it will save a cop from wrongfully or prematurely killing someone. Something I am sure most cops would want.

It's not a perfect idea but isn't it SOMETHING to show they are trying to fix a problem everyone agrees exists?

 
comfortably numb said:
You are right. The actions of the community are very important. To me, the actions of the police are even more critically important for improving police/citizen relations.
How does that same community deal with cops openly abusing their power and getting away with it? 
That would make even the good citizens hopelessly turn bad.
I mean, the officers in the Rodney King verdict. All not guilty....what has changed in the last 30 years to show we are trying to earn back the trust of those citizens?
Body cams are a start. I think they are worthwhile but I think they are more so used to protect cops form false accusations....and yes, they do confirm a cops side of the story which is very helpful.

In regards to police and excessive force you can take an major article from 1986, 1996, 2006 or 2016. Just the same story...nothing has really changed except the date.
It would be helpful to tell not only blacks but all people...here is what we doing to try to curb all the police killings of civilians.....because you know.....we don't WANT to kill you all.
I mean, shouldn't that be something all departments strive for? Not resorting to killing people?

How about...hey America...instead of giving all our officers a gun after 18 weeks of training we are now going to make sure our officers show they are capable of handling a gun AND the stressful situations of being a police officer....simultaneously 

From now on the 1st 2 years an officer will work with no gun but will work with a more experienced officer that does have a gun.
If a gunless officer receives a substantiated claim of excessive force towards a perp in those 2 years, he will go into a program that will closely monitor the officer and that program will determine if the 2 year gunless period needs to be extended or if you just are not suited to carry a gun. I mean, if you have a hard time controlling your aggression maybe giving you a gun isn't the best idea. In those 2 years valuable lessons can be learned  on how to handle situations that do not resort to simply pulling a gun on someone.

I know, you are right. This is crazy and will get a cop killed....but maybe it will save a cop from wrongfully or prematurely killing someone. Something I am sure most cops would want.

It's not a perfect idea but isn't it SOMETHING to show they are trying to fix a problem everyone agrees exists?
Click to expand...
I think these situations are all very different. It isnt as simple as saying that it was racism and they pulled the guy over for DWB every time. 

Sometimes it is. Sometimes officers are just complete meatheads that hate black people. 100% agree that these SOB's should be weeded out anyway possible. I think they often exhibit tendencies that should absolutely be spotted and just like the BLM people that instantly come to the defense of every black victim, I think these guys go undisciplined because the union came to their defense or the force just assumed the union would defend so they didnt bother. 

I really dont believe these are the norm though. I think very often these are good cops that are put in situations with people with criminal records that behave in a way that can be considered a serious threat. To be clear, I am not saying they actually were trying to threaten the officers. What I am saying is that they behaved in a manner that a reasonable person in an exposed situation could see the possibility of serious danger. 

You are being unreasonable if you think your one year without a gun plan would teach them to suppress their instincts. These same instincts get reinforced on a daily basis by what they see happen every day. Situations where one man quickly pulls out a gun and shoots another man because of a girl. Situations where a little kid is shot in the head because somebody had better shoes. Police officers assassinated that had nothing to do with some other situation that some crazy guy is upset about. Situations where felons are carrying illegal firearms. Situations where the people interacting with them HATE them and think that every one of them want to kill them which further fuels the aggressive action towards cops which of course leads to more shootings. 

I think bad cops are pretty far down on the list of things to worry about if you are a black person in the US. I wonder what % of black people would say it is number 1?

 
parasaurolophus said:
I think these situations are all very different. It isnt as simple as saying that it was racism and they pulled the guy over for DWB every time. 

Sometimes it is. Sometimes officers are just complete meatheads that hate black people. 100% agree that these SOB's should be weeded out anyway possible. I think they often exhibit tendencies that should absolutely be spotted and just like the BLM people that instantly come to the defense of every black victim, I think these guys go undisciplined because the union came to their defense or the force just assumed the union would defend so they didnt bother. 

I really dont believe these are the norm though. I think very often these are good cops that are put in situations with people with criminal records that behave in a way that can be considered a serious threat. To be clear, I am not saying they actually were trying to threaten the officers. What I am saying is that they behaved in a manner that a reasonable person in an exposed situation could see the possibility of serious danger. 

You are being unreasonable if you think your one year without a gun plan would teach them to suppress their instincts. These same instincts get reinforced on a daily basis by what they see happen every day. Situations where one man quickly pulls out a gun and shoots another man because of a girl. Situations where a little kid is shot in the head because somebody had better shoes. Police officers assassinated that had nothing to do with some other situation that some crazy guy is upset about. Situations where felons are carrying illegal firearms. Situations where the people interacting with them HATE them and think that every one of them want to kill them which further fuels the aggressive action towards cops which of course leads to more shootings. 

I think bad cops are pretty far down on the list of things to worry about if you are a black person in the US. I wonder what % of black people would say it is number 1?
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The gun less period would also serve as an attempt to show police are making an effort to fix the problem. Instead of saying well...the fix is...you guys need to stop killing each other...that will help us to not kill you.

No doubt these cops see a lot of crap in these areas but that instinct is what gets them into trouble and causes them to draw their weapon on a black man that may have never stepped foot in a ghetto but is being treated like a criminal just because he is black and the cops instincts take over.

Your last paragraph is where I 1000% percent disagree. Bad cops are right at the top of things black people in the US worry about. Put it this way...look how sad this is...and I am very confident if you poll all the blacks in the US and ask them. Do you fear terrorists or cops more living in the US. 

I would think the far majority would say cops. Like at least 86%.

That is pretty sad if we have citizens who fear people who are paid to protect them over some crazy Muslim that so many white people put atop their list of things to worry about.

 
My take is this - you don't give police a reason to mess with you in the first place, you won't be in a position to potentially get shot. It's pretty simple if you ask me. 

 
T J said:
My take is this - you don't give police a reason to mess with you in the first place, you won't be in a position to potentially get shot. It's pretty simple if you ask me. 
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"By the way, I'm carrying a gun so let me just go ahead and reach into my pocket here for my wallet...Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow!"

 
T J said:
My take is this - you don't give police a reason to mess with you in the first place, you won't be in a position to potentially get shot. It's pretty simple if you ask me. 
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This woks very well for white people.  

It shows an incredible lack of awareness about what the rest of America goes through. 

I'm the oldest of 5 boys.  I always told my brothers:  Don't be dumb in your car, always be smart in your car. 

I was mostly thinking about pot, don't ever have pot in your car,  or don't drive like an idiot in your car.  

Because my observations as a rural white kid was this: cops caught you doing something after you got pulled over for speeding, or expired something or other,  or traffic violation,  etc.  

I never had any experience with cops messing with me,  or pulling me over,  for  no reason. 

Not giving police a reason,  for a lot of people,  isn't enough. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Good for them. The Lynx were out of line IMO. But what do you expect? When the governor "takes a side" without the facts, why wouldnt everyone else?
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No one else had accepted responsibility to provide security at a public event. 

No one else left the arena less safe because they didn't like a T-Shirt.

 
There's so much going on the topic is constantly changing.

As Squiz pointed out, BLM acknowledges that the problem is systemic.

Ok while granted that also means that blacks have higher poverty -> greater likelihood for black men to end up in or near crime and -> in contact with police.

People may not like it but as a practical matter this means that police will yes tend to profile, and they may have to. So driving while black happens (typically police are looking for someone and guess what the description is), and having a rap sheet when encountered by police (Sterling in BR had a really long list of interactions with police over his lifetime) happens, and eventually something deadly could very well happen, either by mistake of the citizen or by the police or both.

What to do?

- This may seem counter-intuitive, but IMO there should be more police, they should be well paid, and police districts should recruit from the neighborhoods they are in. Safer neighborhoods means that criminals feel less encouraged, and less pressure on cops to act alone and without support and less incentive for arrested citizens to push the envelope. IMO in the end the poor are every bit as entitled to safe neighborhoods as the wealthy and middle class. Safe neighborhoods would go a long way towards promoting the systemic changes that BLM wants (and which nearly everyone wants). In short, being a policeman should be a better, easier job and the poor should feel like they get something from policing.

- Real reform: police monitors and inspectors general are a great institutional advantage.

- Greater transparency. Police monitors should ensure accurate reporting of crime statistics but also of fair treatment of citizen complaints and investigations of police brutality or misbehavior. Establish trust in the system and we will have fewer claims of injustice.

 
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massraider said:
No one else had accepted responsibility to provide security at a public event. 

No one else left the arena less safe because they didn't like a T-Shirt.
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That's too bad. When your employer basically is protesting against you, I dont blame you one bit for quitting. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
That's too bad. When your employer basically is protesting against you, I dont blame you one bit for quitting. 
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It wasn't their employer. 

It was other employees.  In protest of their colleagues protest, they left a large group of people less safe.

People that had nothing to do with the T-shirts.  Again I say: T-Shirts.

 
massraider said:
It wasn't their employer. 

It was other employees.  In protest of their colleagues protest, they left a large group of people less safe.

People that had nothing to do with the T-shirts.  Again I say: T-Shirts.
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Do you pronounce that "Tee Shirts" or "tshirtz"? 

 
massraider said:
It wasn't their employer. 

It was other employees.  In protest of their colleagues protest, they left a large group of people less safe.

People that had nothing to do with the T-shirts.  Again I say: T-Shirts.
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You are splitting hairs as Im sure the Lynx handed out the t-shirts. You seems to try to downplay this as just T-shirts. If its so inconsequential, why wear them? 

We wont agree here. I'll move along. 

 
timschochet said:
A new study this morning suggests that while blacks receive unequal treatment from law enforcement in most ways, it's not true of police shootings: 

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.amp.html?client=safari#
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'Driving while black' is a real thing. It's a national embarrassment. 

Look at the POTUS the last 16 yrs... we excel at national embarrassment :bag:

 
BowieMercs said:
'Driving while black' is a real thing. It's a national embarrassment. 

Look at the POTUS the last 16 yrs... we excel at national embarrassment :bag:
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Well you speak for yourself. I thought Bush was s poor President, and Obama a good one, but I'm certainly not embarrassed by either of them. 

 
timschochet said:
Well you speak for yourself. I thought Bush was s poor President, and Obama a good one, but I'm certainly not embarrassed by either of them. 
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I think Bush was straight Wilsonian, and Obama a domestic Kissinger, if one will. 

The PPACA will go down as realpolitik domestically if there ever was such a thing. It was akin to court packing. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
You are splitting hairs as Im sure the Lynx handed out the t-shirts. You seems to try to downplay this as just T-shirts. If its so inconsequential, why wear them? 

We wont agree here. I'll move along. 
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We're not splitting hairs.  The players don't pay the security. 

There's nothing I have seem online about the team handing out the shirts,  so that seems to be an assumption you pulled from thin air. 

The players held a press conference,  and spoke at length about the Dallas shootings.  They spoke about racial profiling, and that a change is necessary,  in everyone. 

These officers, and their petty commander, could learn a few things from the Dallas police chief.

The message those Minnesota officers are sending is:

how dare you question us.

 
massraider said:
We're not splitting hairs.  The players don't pay the security. 

There's nothing I have seem online about the team handing out the shirts,  so that seems to be an assumption you pulled from thin air. 

The players held a press conference,  and spoke at length about the Dallas shootings.  They spoke about racial profiling, and that a change is necessary,  in everyone. 

These officers, and their petty commander, could learn a few things from the Dallas police chief.

The message those Minnesota officers are sending is:

how dare you question us.
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It is not an assumption. Players cant wear whatever they want on the court. The team (and usually the league) has to approve it. 

The shirts werent questioning, they were the judge and jury. As Ive already stated, "Justice and Accountability" implies the officer did something wrong. 

 
comfortably numb said:
The gun less period would also serve as an attempt to show police are making an effort to fix the problem. Instead of saying well...the fix is...you guys need to stop killing each other...that will help us to not kill you.

No doubt these cops see a lot of crap in these areas but that instinct is what gets them into trouble and causes them to draw their weapon on a black man that may have never stepped foot in a ghetto but is being treated like a criminal just because he is black and the cops instincts take over.

Your last paragraph is where I 1000% percent disagree. Bad cops are right at the top of things black people in the US worry about. Put it this way...look how sad this is...and I am very confident if you poll all the blacks in the US and ask them. Do you fear terrorists or cops more living in the US. 

I would think the far majority would say cops. Like at least 86%.

That is pretty sad if we have citizens who fear people who are paid to protect them over some crazy Muslim that so many white people put atop their list of things to worry about.
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I guess I worded it poorly. I was trying to say that I don't think it is very high on the list of things they should worry about but that lots of them would say it is the number 1 thing they worry about. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
It is not an assumption. Players cant wear whatever they want on the court. The team (and usually the league) has to approve it. 

The shirts werent questioning, they were the judge and jury. As Ive already stated, "Justice and Accountability" implies the officer did something wrong. 
Click to expand...
That's your reading of it, and is a very subjective opinion.

The players wore them as warm-ups, not in a game.  You are making assumptions with no factual backup to excuse these officers from leaving 7,000 people less safe because they didn't like a shirt. 

Clearly,  I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.  Nothing happened,  no one was hurt,  everything went fine,  4 less rent-a-cops, they still had private security.   But if something had happened,  I can assure you,  someone thinking that the shirt "implied" something would not be much of a defense. 

 
I know WNBA players don't make as much money as NBA players, but I'm pretty sure they can afford to buy matching tshirts and wear them for warmups.

 
Also, I note that we've been quoting only half of the t-shirt.

It read "Change Starts With Us - Justice And Accountability" and had Castile and Sterling's name, as well as the shield of the Dallas PD with "Black Lives Matter" on the back. 

This wasn't an anti-police t-shirt.

 
Henry Ford said:
I know WNBA players don't make as much money as NBA players, but I'm pretty sure they can afford to buy matching tshirts and wear them for warmups.
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And Im pretty sure its impossible for them to wear the shirts for warmups and at a press conference without the organization knowing about it. 

So, IMO, the organization was taking a stand against cops, again, without have all of the details about the shooting. 

 
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