Juxtatarot
Footballguy
You said there were issues with the warrant to begin with. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's likely a systemic problem or just a one time thing?
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Black lives matter (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rascal
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jm192
Footballguy
The point of the warrant is to catch someone off guard so they can't leave/hide whatever. When you surprise people, that's more likely to lead to fighting/shooting/etc. It's more risky for everyone involved.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Yep, agreed. But you agree that it was a mistake to issue the no knock warrant in the first place right? That the judge shouldn't have signed it? Is so, why did she? Is it more likely it was a one-off mistake or a systemic problem of not appropriately respecting citizens' rights?
jm192
Footballguy
I think that no-knock warrants have problems.
My understanding is the Narcotics division in Louisville has used no knock warrants in the past. There were 4 or 5 warrants issued for the same night related to the same case. My understanding is they were all no knock warrants.
I believe it's a tactic used to police Narcotics. I don't believe it's a "systemic problem" or a "lack of respect for citizens rights." I simply think the evidence is there that no knock warrants have their issues.
I don't think the judge asked the color of Breona Taylor's skin or looked for it. I think warrants are put in front of a judge and judges trust the police and sign them more often than not. That's probably somewhat of an issue.
That being said "Ex-girlfriend of drug dealer we're trying to catch has gotten Fed-Ex packages in his name to her apt that he has come to pick up" seems reasonable to investigate.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Thanks, I agree, no of course not.
My point is about effectuating policy change. Politicians love their jobs and removing McConnell would scare the hell out of every political office holder in KY, and probably quite a few people in DC. That’s power.
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JAA
Footballguy
If "seems reasonable to investigate" translates to "gun shots and innocent people will die", then the presumed risk analysis is flawed.
jm192
Footballguy
Sure.
Seems reasonable to investigate was in regards to the judge signing a warrant. If no-knock warrants are a somewhat regular thing for the Narcotics unit, I don't fault the judge for signing it.
We have no idea how many they've issued without incident. So, I don't find fault with the judge here. I don't believe the judge signed the warrant believing the police intended to take a life. I don't believe the police showed up with the intent of shooting someone.
Did terrible things happen? Absolutely. Do we need to stop and look at doing away with No-knock warrants? Yes.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Shutout
Footballguy
I was reading the posts form you guys the past hour or so and wanted to toss this out:
It is not in every case of no-knock warrants but was in this case that the warrant was one of a few and were coordinated to serve on multiple people related to the same instance. One of the benefits of such a warrant, aside from the obvious "take them by surprise/don't let them get holed up where they could have hostages, etc" is that it also doesn't allow a guy to get a knock at the door and send a text to his dealers, suppliers, etc, saying "run! they are coming!"
With that being said, In this case, they DID knock (but they failed to have the "call and report" person in place.
Also, as most already know, Rand Paul has already introduced legislation to attempt to do away with these types of warrants altogether. I don't know if that was purely reaction to this or if he truly gathered information as a reaction to this and saw something he thought was best removed.
JAA
Footballguy
And when terrible things happen, groups of people get pissed. And when groups of people get pissed, sometimes some of them make bad choices in how they express their frustration.
jm192
Footballguy
I don't think it's the bad thing that triggered the bad decisions.
It's the decision. Everyone has said they want justice. Justice implies the laws are followed. For better or worse, I think the decision by the Grand jury and the AG are consistent with Kentucky laws. I live in Kentucky. I've spoken to multiple lawyers I'm friends/acquaintances with, and most agree that this was the most likely outcome legally. Matt Jones is a sports radio host who went to Duke Law school and just happened to make his fortune talking about Kentucky sports. He's well known as very liberal which often clashes with a conservative fan base. He agreed with the decision legally. And I don't think it's necessarily a liberal or conservative issue, but most liberals I've seen speak on it wanted more charges.
But the reality is the mob didn't want "justice." They wanted a murder charge. Anything short of that they wouldn't accept as justice. The mob doesn't get to define justice, try as they may
So they decided to go and shoot cops. Ironically, all of this is in the name of Black Lives matter and a black police officer got shot last night.
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Juxtatarot
Footballguy
What is the procedure with regular warrants (compared to no-knock warrants)? I assume police knock and then give an appropriate amount of time for the occupant to respond. Then what? Do they just leave if nobody answers?
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I don't think they knew where he lived. He had gotten packages there in the past which is why they thought he might be there.
Yenrub
Footballguy
I read some place that the police thought Taylor was home alone that night.
https://apnews.com/article/a819916f3b18b2253b157d1300f84713
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JAA
Footballguy
Full disclosure - I have no skin in this game
What I'm hearing you say, and what I'm guessing others are hearing is that: it was legal for a police office to shoot an kill an innocent person
I hope you realize how far fetched this sounds
jm192
Footballguy
And you're not really trying to have an honest conversation if that's your conclusion.
What's not in dispute: Kenny Walker shot first. Kenny Walker freely admitted he shot first. No doubt in anyone's mind who shot the first shot.
Police are allowed to defend themselves. Self defense laws in the State of Kentucky are the same for police as everyone else. Breonna Taylor was caught in the cross fire of self defense and died.
If your question for me is: Is it legal for police to break down a woman's door and shoot her in cold blood unprovoked? I get it. That's definitely not legal. And people seem to want to act like that's the way this went down. Cops showed up, kicked in the door, unloaded 20 bullets and another black person dead at the hands of racist police.
In reality, they were doing their jobs in executing a warrant. One of them was shot in the leg and wounded. They defended themselves--which is legal. Breonna Taylor was unfortunately hit in the cross fire. Again it's awful. Human emotion says there's something horribly wrong with it.
Is it a violation of the law for police to fire back and hit someone?
No.
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JAA
Footballguy
I'm trying to have an honest conversation. However, im giving you a perspective you don't like and one that makes you uncomfortable. I'm doing this in an effort to provide you a different viewpoint.
Let me ask you a different question: Was Breonna Taylor's death avoidable?
If your answer to this question is only "Well, if Kenny Walker had just not shot at the door", then we can agree to disagree.
I think a lot about these situations. Could you imagine if Walker didn't hear them identify themselves? What if this was the rural south and someone started banging on the farm door in the middle of the night demanding the home owner open it?
We need to stop the senseless violence and senseless killing. The biggest part of solving this problem is accountability.
jm192
Footballguy
Let’s agree on what the actual question is.
if you’re asking me if I think the police violated the law in firing back, the answer is no.
If you’re asking if I think they should be charged with murder or manslaughter, the answer is no.
If you’re simply saying was this avoidable, absolutely. Lots of things went wrong. Lots of things can be improved on.
But a bad process isn’t criminal and shouldn’t mean a murder/manslaughter charge.
jm192
Footballguy
I also want to clarify on Walker:
Kentucky has stand your ground laws. I think there’s a reasonable belief that he didn’t know who they were. It’s disputed whether they announced who they were.
I’m not arguing that Walker should be prosecuted for firing on them. But I’m also not going to buy that the police can’t fire back in self-defense.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Yes. This was a separate warrant. It was not an arrest warrant for Glover. It was a search warrant for Taylor's place.Yenrub said:
Shutout
Footballguy
Vert well said. So much so I am quoting it just so people get a chance to read it twice because that is exactly what happened, especially the perception of what justice "is". I lived many years in Ky (#BBN) and you are dead on re: Matt Jones, etc.jm192 said:
When you see how businesses were boarding up and bracing for this just as they would a hurricane, its fitting because that's what they got. This wasn't a group who said I will accept justice. This was a mob who had pre-planned this. There were U-Hauls rolling up and distributing items like a military convoy as soon as the news broke. That does not suggest a group of people listening, learning, weighing out the reasons. That suggests "our way or we will burn this place to the ground." That's a problem.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
It is clearly a terrorist organization at this point. And they plan to keep escalating. Truth or justice does not satisfy them, it is power that they seek.
Like which laws? Don't assault people. Don't steal. Don't resist arrest. Don't charge police while holding weapons. Which laws are inherently unjust?
Shutout
Footballguy
I believe the constitution is crystal clear about that. See, the problem in this case is that some people don't understand that justice, justice served, and due process of justice do not mean "I get the decision I want". The media and some people have convicted the officers in this case without Any due process. The grand jury did the due process and issued its verdict. that is how it works.
In other words, it is not that it is unjust. It is that it didn't go the way of some who wanted a very specific, violent reaction to a very tragic situation.
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Juxtatarot
Footballguy
In this case, allowing officers to bust down a woman’s door in the middle of the night because an ex-boyfriend received packages there months earlier is unjust.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Does that mean that everything done legally must be just automatically? You see, I don’t agree.
squistion
Footballguy
What an absurd statement.
From Politifact:
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jul/30/facebook-posts/black-lives-matter-not-terrorist-organization/
No, Black Lives Matter is not a terrorist organization
- The State Department keeps a list of foreign groups that have been formally designated terrorist organizations. Black Lives Matter, a domestic organization, is not on it.
- There is no legal process for designating domestic groups as terrorist organizations.
- Black Lives Matter is not listed as a perpetrator group in a global database of nearly 200,000 terrorism incidents.
Shutout
Footballguy
It means that everything done legally goes through the exact same due process of justice and that THAT is protected to ALL citizens by the US constitution without exception and that is a big part of what protects our universal freedom in this country.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Shutout
Footballguy
My understanding is that she was not a target and was hit in the return fire from police after Mr. Walker fired upon the police. Not to make light of it but, in simplest terms, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Shutout
Footballguy
The 6th amendment guarantees all Americans the right to a fair trial, even if the tax payers must foot the bill to pay for it.
If you ask the question beyond that, we are no longer talking about the judicial system, we are talking about individual economic systems.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Perhaps “individual economic systems” affect outcomes in the judicial system? I think so.
jm192
Footballguy
I feel like we're getting really sideways here.
We can go way down the rabbit hole. At the end of the day, the police are allowed a fair process.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
So we don’t know if she knew about it.
An ex-boyfriend. Who was not there.
IMO that is not enough to break down someone’s door in the middle of the night with guns drawn putting presumed innocent people in extreme danger.
Shutout
Footballguy
That may be true but it sounds like you are diverging on a different path as the root for your frustration.
Would the best lawyer in the world have been able to change the FACTS of this case?
The police knocked. There was no response. They entered. The police were shot at and an officer was wounded. In ANY situation, if you fire a gun at a police officer, you are opening up their right to return fire.
jm192
Footballguy
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
No, that Breonna Taylor didn’t get a fair process. Nor do other people like Breonna Taylor get a fair process.
Shutout
Footballguy
We are but it is not what you may think it is. To be honest, your comments suggest you are , and I'm sorry to sound so blunt, "mad because a poor person got shot and she didn't get her eye for an eye" but that is NOT what is going on. We are talking about the facts of the case and the legal right of the process of justice; not "I am upset because i think a poor person got bullied and somebody got away with it". This was an investigation. Lots of professional attorneys and evidence and witnesses and reports. That outweighs your emotional take based on what you saw on CNN in this case.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
For what it’s worth, I think the charging decisions on the officers were appropriate. I think I’m probably less emotional about it than you think I am.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
jm192
Footballguy
Shutout
Footballguy
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