Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Sign in to follow this  
eoMMan

The Bosa/Chargers Situation

Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, Bob Magaw said:

By addressing the point of interest, I was trying to figure out how much SD is saving if they pay the other 15% in March or April of 2017 (as opposed to December of 2016)?

It seems as if both sides thought the other would have caved by now, and both sides were wrong. Clearly this could cost Bosa. But depending on how things play out, it could negatively impact SD, too. Hypothetically, what if he becomes an All-Pro (I know, they would probably love to have that "problem") but than remembers this and decides to leave ASAP, potentially forcing them to use the franchise tag. Also seems like a case of organizationally being in the news for the wrong reasons while they are trying to get votes for a stadium funding initiative (albeit one that sounded like a long shot to pass).     

Used to be so much easier to quote multiple posts but between you and Just Win Baby I wants to stress this...listening or reading the two of you back and forth, all sounds interesting but I would have nightmares or sweats if I were a college football player entering the draft and San Diego wants to draft me...d you understand?

-You two can go back and forth and find all kinds of interesting reasons why this was done and that, "both sides thought the other would cave" whatever! San Diego looks like chumps right now and their long term health whether fans believe it or not is terrible. You got owned by Eli Manning and he brought 2 Super Bowls to New York, that's a fact. I never bought the Mannings story at first or thought the Bolts had left those cheap 80s/90s rags behind. All the teams get a lot fo money from the TV, they can't cry poor!

It pains me because I used to love watching Dan Fouts and those talented receivers like Chandler, Joiner, and the stud TE Winslow. I love the bolts on their helmets and those powder blues but OMG how do they continue to allow this type of stuff knowing that players and teams already think they are super thrifty and don't always act in the best financial interest of the player?

Why would you do this? You're stepping over dollars to pick up pennies IMHO. Figure out a way in your financial portfolio to shift a few more dollars from somewhere else if you must but don't do this to the fans and media/beat writers who have to cover this. 

 

Edited by Ministry of Pain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Milkman said:

I mean I guess if he's an all time great like Tomlinson he may still do ok. 

I guess my broader point is missing 4 weeks on August is being completely blown out of proportion. I expect Zeke to be just fine for instance despite the fact he missed 2-3 weeks of meaningless football on August due to a hamstring.... But I don't hear anyone saying he came just a week away from having a lost rookie season. It all just sounds a little melodramatic to me. But I didn't really think Bosa was exactly going to be a game changer in the first place. 

If anything my guess is there are folks in DAL and BAL wishing some of their players weren't exposed to meaningless August snaps. If Bosa signs in week #2 do you think Stevie Johnson will feel sorry Bosa because he has a "lost season"? That's a guy who actually knows what it means.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

It took the Chargers way too long to make a decent offer, but the offer that Bosa most recently rejected was in line with what the other top 5 picks got. The #1 and #5 picks got the offset language removed (without favorable timing on their bonus payments). The #2 and #4 picks did not get the offset language removed, but got favorable timing on their bonus payments. The deal offered to Bosa by the Chargers, with respect to the timing of bonus payments, was not as good as the deal signed by the #2 pick, but was better than the deal signed by the #4 pick (and every other pick lower than #3).

I agree with you that this whole thing is stupid. Each side is worse off now than than it would have been if it had just completely caved to the other side's demands at the outset. (I know, caving to the other side isn't good for one's reputation -- but it's not like the current situation is a PR dream, either.)

That's where the blame need to be placed and left. I really can't fault Bosa at this point. 

-Most of the other rookies have gotten months to develop chemistry with their team and get their position carved out, Bosa not so much. 

-I would argue Bosa has lost out on his rookie year and also a lot of the NFL experience of his other rookies in the 2016 Class. It's embarrassing the way the rookies are slotted to make money, there really isn't this much to argue over. San Diego knew they would need to pay up and tried to do it in a cheap way and Bosa feels like a guy who just met his bride at the alter and is now having very cold feet. 

-I think Bosa sitting out all season and re-entering is not likely however if he did it, long term ripple effect for the Chargers is going to be hard to measure immediately but it's certainly going to drag the franchise down some. 

This type of stuff sets your franchise back years perhaps a decade to shake this kind of PR stuff. 

-The Miami Dolphins are still digging out of the Martin fiasco, Gomer/Dan Campbell, Adam Gase seems very competent compared to what has been in place the last 5 years here...heck the last 10 years here. 

-I've always had a soft spot for the Bolts, I've never rooted against them or gotten a thrill out of watching them lose like I do a couple other teams so please don't get too mad at me, I have nothing but sympathy and open arms for the fans there. 

Edited by Ministry of Pain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

You mean like Tomlinson did?

Again, they almost didn't pay LT and made him endure a holdout as a rookie. 

36 carries IIRC his 1st game as Mike Riley used him a lot in a 30-3 win over the Skins who also had a high pick in the same draft, maybe used it on an OL I think. 

This is a recurring problem with San Diego and has been for a long time it seems. 

It was said that RB was a position where you don't need as much time in camp t be productive...not sure I buy it but that;s the word on FBG streets. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see any scenario where Bosa doesn't cave before week 10. That's the deadline where he could have one year of an accrued season on his contract. Not only that, say if he does hold out, if he falls out of the top 10 in next years draft he is going to lose a lot more than the 15% he was holding out for on the last offer the Chargers have him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, ldizzle said:

I don't see any scenario where Bosa doesn't cave before week 10. That's the deadline where he could have one year of an accrued season on his contract. Not only that, say if he does hold out, if he falls out of the top 10 in next years draft he is going to lose a lot more than the 15% he was holding out for on the last offer the Chargers have him. 

One of the issues when he does sign is that he will need a month to get in game shape, seriously. I wouldn't let him on the field until Week 6 if he does sign prior to Week 1. 

I have this bad feeling he will finally sign and rush on to the field and end up hurt. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

 This is a recurring problem with San Diego and has been for a long time it seems. 

The Spanos family keeps reproducing. Until the city can expell those genetic misfits issues like Bosa missing a few weeks in August is just a blip compared to the overall problem. It's like people are fixated on the trim paint not quite matching...... as the Titanic drifts to the bottom of the ocean. Telesco tore this thing down to the third pick in the draft and Spanos held him accountable by giving him an extension.... I guess the three picks for Gordon was the tipping point to reward him.

Spanos already has it set up so his sons will co-own the team after he steps down, because what good business doesn't have several folks "in charge"? SD should vote no to build a stadium to keep these clowns and just build a stadium for a different ownership group in the future. If voters don't like the way the team is being run here is your opportunity to voice your displeasure.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

The Spanos family keeps reproducing. Until the city can expell those genetic misfits issues like Bosa missing a few weeks in August is just a blip compared to the overall problem. It's like people are fixated on the trim paint not quite matching...... as the Titanic drifts to the bottom of the ocean. Telesco tore this thing down to the third pick in the draft and Spanos held him accountable by giving him an extension.... I guess the three picks for Gordon was the tipping point to reward him.

Spanos already has it set up so his sons will co-own the team after he steps down, because what good business doesn't have several folks "in charge"? SD should vote no to build a stadium to keep these clowns and just build a stadium for a different ownership group in the future. If voters don't like the way the team is being run here is your opportunity to voice your displeasure.

Strong take, I like it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, BoltBacker said:

I guess my broader point is missing 4 weeks on August is being completely blown out of proportion. I expect Zeke to be just fine for instance despite the fact he missed 2-3 weeks of meaningless football on August due to a hamstring.... But I don't hear anyone saying he came just a week away from having a lost rookie season. It all just sounds a little melodramatic to me. But I didn't really think Bosa was exactly going to be a game changer in the first place. 

Unlike Bosa, Zeke got to be around for months of OTAs in which the offense was installed, then had the benefit of a summer to study the playbook, and if needed get help from fellow players and coaches in understanding the nuances.

It isnt just the 4 weeks in August.  Who's going to walk him through all the alignment, substitutions, hit read signals, etc. while everyone else is busy mastering the weekly gameplan on top of that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, ldizzle said:

I don't see any scenario where Bosa doesn't cave before week 10. That's the deadline where he could have one year of an accrued season on his contract. Not only that, say if he does hold out, if he falls out of the top 10 in next years draft he is going to lose a lot more than the 15% he was holding out for on the last offer the Chargers have him. 

The thing is, if he is going to cave before week 10, he is going to be under contract to the Chargers for 4 years, with a team option for a 5th year. Given that fact, and given that waiting to sign does not increase his compensation in any way, why miss games? Why drag it out into the season, just to spite the team for which you will play for the next 4-5 years? What is gained to offset the increased acrimony with the team and his teammates? It makes no sense.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

He's lost the preparation needed for a whole season.

See the guy with the football? Go tackle him, ya Cro-Magnon. What's so hard about that?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

The thing is, if he is going to cave before week 10, he is going to be under contract to the Chargers for 4 years, with a team option for a 5th year. Given that fact, and given that waiting to sign does not increase his compensation in any way, why miss games? Why drag it out into the season, just to spite the team for which you will play for the next 4-5 years? What is gained to offset the increased acrimony with the team and his teammates? It makes no sense.

Agreed on the last part, but it seems symmetrical, and could be applied equally to SD. Pretty much verbatim:

"Why drag it out into the season, just to spite the team for which you will play for the next 4-5 years?"

Why would SD prolong needlessly protracted negotiations, just to spite the player for which will be playing for them the next 4-5 years? 

"What is gained to offset the increased acrimony with the team and his teammates? It makes no sense."

What is gained by SD calling Bosa's position asinine and increasing the acrimony with the team and teammates. It makes no sense.   

* "Given that fact, and given that waiting to sign does not increase his compensation in any way, why miss games?"

One reason would be because it is the only leverage he has to attempt to move SD off their current offer.

** I get that SD seems to have a certain way of doing business that may not be standard, and some are taking that as a given, and putting it on Bosa that he has to be the one to yield, because "they have all the leverage." But it seems like a legit question to ask, WHY do they have to do business that way, and why can't they change and yield (especially if it is somewhat arbitrary)? Prioritize. If offset language is deemed essential (only LA and JAX have dispensed with it, so maybe they have a point), maybe compromise more on bonus pay out. I also agree both sides are at fault and share culpability, nobody is exempt. Part of my being skeptical of the organization was informed by the article/s you linked, which definitely assigned at least a fair share of fault to SD.     

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Just Win Baby said:

:lmao:

He's gonna hurt himself JWB, he missed all of training camp, he can't just walk in and start. I wouldn't let him on the field for at least the first 2 weeks, then a 20-30 play snap count tops the 1st week out.  Yeah he wouldn't be going full strength IMO until like week 5 or 6. 

I'm happy to make you laugh though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What language exactly is throwing a monkey wrench into this?

Spanos trying to collect back the bonus if there are failed drug tests etc...???

What could make it so awful a player would hold out? I would like to know. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

What language exactly is throwing a monkey wrench into this?

Spanos trying to collect back the bonus if there are failed drug tests etc...???

What could make it so awful a player would hold out? I would like to know. 

An ESPN article from more than two weeks ago.

Joey Bosa isn't the one to blame in contract holdout with Chargers

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17269148/nfl-blame-joey-bosa-san-diego-chargers-mess-holdout-contract-dispute

In theory, the NFL's current collective bargaining agreement was supposed to do away with those long contract impasses that kept rookies from attending the start of training camp. In theory, it was supposed to make life easier for teams and agents by slotting players' salaries based on where they were drafted. In theory, it was supposed to do away with the art of the deal, because there was nothing of significance to be negotiated.

In theory, otherwise known as famous last words.

The contract impasse between the San Diego Chargers and first-round pick Joey Bosa is so, well, San Diego Chargers. This is an organization that fed on contentious contract negotiations with high draft picks under the previous CBA.

Flash back to 2001, when running back LaDainian Tomlinson, taken fifth overall, missed 30 days of camp. Or 2002, when cornerback Quentin Jammer, selected fifth overall, sat out 50 days. Or 2004, when quarterback Philip Rivers, taken fourth overall, was out 25 days. Or 2005, when linebacker Shawne Merriman, the 12th pick, missed seven days.

That's four players and 112 missed days -- five players and 125 days if you count Bosa, whose 13-day impasse is the longest of any NFL player since the current CBA was adopted in 2011.

This should not be the case in Bosa's situation, of course. Both sides know -- and, for the most part, accept -- what the final dollars will be. The sticking point is contract structure.

The Chargers are demanding offset language, which allows them to recoup monies owed to Bosa if he were released and signed by another team, and partial deferment of the signing bonus into next year. The Bosa camp is agreeable to one or the other, but not both.

Caught in the middle are Chargers fans, who struggle with memories of a painful past when rookie standoffs were common. A holdout now is just not the same as it was even 10 years ago.

In 2001, the late John Butler and sidekick (and successor as general manager) A.J. Smith joined the Chargers from Buffalo and quickly announced that agents would play by their rules ... or else. In one negotiation after another, they held their ground and got deals to their liking, even if it hurt the team in the short term.

Now comes GM Tom Telesco. He's not as brash as his predecessors, but he wants you to know he's just as tough. Agents are going to play by the team's rules ... or else. Every contract the Chargers have done since 2011 has included offset language and deferred money, and they're not going to break precedent for Bosa, a defensive end/outside linebacker taken third overall.

At some point it's fair to ask, when is enough enough? Owners complained that rookies were making too much money under the previous CBA, so the league successfully fought for a rookie wage scale that dramatically slashed the guaranteed dollars when players entered the league. Instead of being content with that victory, however, owners now want to recoup monies if they cut the player and he signs elsewhere. In other words, they want the player to assume some of the financial risk for bad personnel decisions, an attitude that speaks to their arrogance and sense of entitlement. What's next, injured players returning game checks when they're unable to suit up? But owners demand such things because players allow them to get away with it.

That's why Bosa should point the finger of blame at his fellow players as well as at Chargers management. On multiple occasions the NFL Players Association has "strongly discouraged" agents from agreeing to contracts that include offset language, particularly in rookie deals, but each year the number of deals featuring that (and deferred money) increases.

For instance, none of the 12 players selected with the second, third or fourth picks in the 2012-15 drafts agreed to deals that included offsets and deferments. However, this year, the picks immediately before and after Bosa -- Eagles quarterback Carson Wentz at No. 2, and running back Ezekiel Elliott at No. 4 -- signed deals with both provisions. Not surprisingly, the Chargers are arguing that Bosa's contract should feature that same framework.

There is nothing in the CBA that says a player must agree to offsets or deferments, yet players are willingly doing such deals. Each time they do, it's more leverage and a bigger hammer for teams to swing in negotiations.

A part of me hopes that Bosa holds his ground, even though history says players almost always will blink first in a contract stare-down. It's tiresome listening to players complain about what they don't have when they consistently give away their leverage and show no willingness to stand collectively and fight for change. In theory, if they stood as one, they could regain some of the power they've surrendered. But you know what they say about "in theory."

Famous last words.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Bob Magaw said:

Agreed on the last part, but it seems symmetrical, and could be applied equally to SD. Pretty much verbatim:

"Why drag it out into the season, just to spite the team for which you will play for the next 4-5 years?"

Why would SD prolong needlessly protracted negotiations, just to spite the player for which will be playing for them the next 4-5 years? 

"What is gained to offset the increased acrimony with the team and his teammates? It makes no sense."

What is gained by SD calling Bosa's position asinine and increasing the acrimony with the team and teammates. It makes no sense.   

* "Given that fact, and given that waiting to sign does not increase his compensation in any way, why miss games?"

One reason would be because it is the only leverage he has to attempt to move SD off their current offer.

** I get that SD seems to have a certain way of doing business that may not be standard, and some are taking that as a given, and putting it on Bosa that he has to be the one to yield, because "they have all the leverage." But it seems like a legit question to ask, WHY do they have to do business that way, and why can't they change and yield (especially if it is somewhat arbitrary)? Prioritize. If offset language is deemed essential (only LA and JAX have dispensed with it, so maybe they have a point), maybe compromise more on bonus pay out. I also agree both sides are at fault and share culpability, nobody is exempt. Part of my being skeptical of the organization was informed by the article/s you linked, which definitely assigned at least a fair share of fault to SD.     

Believe me, I blame the team more for this fiasco than Bosa. Bosa holding out for spite accomplishes nothing, so why do it?

If you think Bosa has any leverage at this point, I think you are mistaken. The team has signaled that it is willing to move forward without him. As stupid as that is, Bosa has no leverage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know many on this board will disagree...but I've felt since the moment this fiasco started that this is going to end with Bosa re-entering the draft next year.

And in my humble opinion...it's not his fault.  The Chargers are trying to use this kid to set a precedent.  Everyone keeps saying it's going to hurt Bosa but it's going to hurt the Chargers just as much to basically burn away a first round pick with zero compensation in return.  At least Bosa can re-enter next year and still play somewhere else...the Chargers are  the one who could end up with NOTHING in this exchange.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

Believe me, I blame the team more for this fiasco than Bosa. Bosa holding out for spite accomplishes nothing, so why do it?

If you think Bosa has any leverage at this point, I think you are mistaken. The team has signaled that it is willing to move forward without him. As stupid as that is, Bosa has no leverage.

Right but one of the two parties will still go on and prosper next year, perhaps not as highly but still will make millions and more over his career. The San Diego Chargers can never recoup the pick and quite frankly they already are doing lasting damage. I would think most agents are going to speak out against San Diego and please do not take their player. 

San Diego will be picking top 5 and grabbing talent outside the top 20. Its going to take a player who would get picked much later in the 1st to accept their terms and play for them. That is who would see San Diego as an opp vs top talent looking at them as a problem over being a lace they want to land. 

San Diego IMO has already done perm damage this year, more than most since this type of nonsense shouldn't happen under the new CBA. I would like to see Archie Manning come out and say "See, I told you all" and also offer support for Bosa through the process. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Mister CIA said:

Feels like the NFLPA has their finger on he scale here, and they are attacking a weak target. Chargers FO will either cave, or lose.

It's far more than just "attacking a weak target"....it's standing up to a bully.

The owners already got a major win in the last CBA when the rookie wage scale was implemented and drastically curtailed and hogtied rookie salaries.  That was a win for them...now the Chargers are trying to take it a step further and get a second "win" by compounding it with offset language that has not been forced upon a pick this high since that new CBA was established.

I'm not a Chargers fan or hater....but I just feel like this is major garbage that the Chargers have decided to try to pull here.  I seriously hope the kid sticks to his guns and either signs under his terms or just re-enters the draft next year.  Then the Chargers organization are going to have to explain to their already pissed off fan base that they basically forfeited a top 5 first round pick out of pure and utter stupidity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Just Win Baby said:

Believe me, I blame the team more for this fiasco than Bosa. Bosa holding out for spite accomplishes nothing, so why do it?

If you think Bosa has any leverage at this point, I think you are mistaken. The team has signaled that it is willing to move forward without him. As stupid as that is, Bosa has no leverage.

I'm not sure he is doing it out of spite, as much as a negotiating ploy.

It may not seem like much leverage, but it is all he has. Sometimes teams signal one thing and do another*. It wouldn't be the first time (though maybe it would for the Chargers). We'll see. If more players like Bosa take a stand, it could conceivably chip away at and weaken the resolve of SD to be so rigid in future negotiations.

You are probably right about his having to sign eventually, I've also said I expect him to sign, just a question of when, but often times in cases like this, the team and player get over it (like they did with LT, Gates, etc.). The bottom line is, if he becomes star and helps them win, this will be soon forgotten, or at least not held against him.    

* Rightly or wrongly, Bosa, his family and representation could be operating under the assumption that there is a non-zero chance SD budges (protests and admonishments notwithstanding). The only way to test that is to continue the holdout a while longer. For them, the opportunity to get SD to cave could be worth the downside they are incurring, at least for now (or probably they would have signed already). The agents could also be advising him to take a hard line, but ultimately it is his call, he can replace them if he wants to.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Right but one of the two parties will still go on and prosper next year, perhaps not as highly but still will make millions and more over his career. The San Diego Chargers can never recoup the pick and quite frankly they already are doing lasting damage. I would think most agents are going to speak out against San Diego and please do not take their player. 

San Diego will be picking top 5 and grabbing talent outside the top 20. Its going to take a player who would get picked much later in the 1st to accept their terms and play for them. That is who would see San Diego as an opp vs top talent looking at them as a problem over being a lace they want to land. 

San Diego IMO has already done perm damage this year, more than most since this type of nonsense shouldn't happen under the new CBA. I would like to see Archie Manning come out and say "See, I told you all" and also offer support for Bosa through the process. 

Disagree. I don't believe Bosa will be willing to sit out the year, much less would other draft picks they take in future drafts be willing to do so. You are posting about a strawman that doesn't exist.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Right but one of the two parties will still go on and prosper next year, perhaps not as highly but still will make millions and more over his career. The San Diego Chargers can never recoup the pick and quite frankly they already are doing lasting damage. I would think most agents are going to speak out against San Diego and please do not take their player. 

 

Lol. I read your setup as the Chargers as the ones that will still prosper. Bosa has no guarantees to be a success. The Chargers, as a team in the national football league, absolutely do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bosa is losing a lot of money. If he signed early he'd be doing selling fish tacos, mossy Nissans, Oggis pizza, and Jacuzzis. Now the whole town is angry. There won't be a welcome party. Every false move on and off the field will be microscoped. He's an idiot and the whole league is watching him be an idiot. Good luck with that 2nd round contract next year, Joey.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Sebowski said:

Bosa is losing a lot of money. If he signed early he'd be doing selling fish tacos, mossy Nissans, Oggis pizza, and Jacuzzis. Now the whole town is angry. There won't be a welcome party. Every false move on and off the field will be microscoped. He's an idiot and the whole league is watching him be an idiot. Good luck with that 2nd round contract next year, Joey.

Oh wow, so you place all the blame squarely on Bosa? That would seem to be an island POV compared to most. 

I agree with you that the team is going to be upset however this ends and because the Chargers have poisoned this guy's entrance into the NFL, he loses out and so much that other rookies got to experience, I really think you should at least cut the blame in half between the 2 sides and even then I still tip it towards the Chargers because of their track history. 

Not sure where Bosa went wrong but I also think once it was obvious that SD was going to go this route that perhaps he started making other plans. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ace08 said:

It's far more than just "attacking a weak target"....it's standing up to a bully.

The owners already got a major win in the last CBA when the rookie wage scale was implemented and drastically curtailed and hogtied rookie salaries.  That was a win for them...now the Chargers are trying to take it a step further and get a second "win" by compounding it with offset language that has not been forced upon a pick this high since that new CBA was established.

I'm not a Chargers fan or hater....but I just feel like this is major garbage that the Chargers have decided to try to pull here.  I seriously hope the kid sticks to his guns and either signs under his terms or just re-enters the draft next year.  Then the Chargers organization are going to have to explain to their already pissed off fan base that they basically forfeited a top 5 first round pick out of pure and utter stupidity.

The owners didn't "win" anything.  The cap still went up a ton, the money just shifted to the veterans.  Rookies should be #### and getting in and earning something.  They should get even less in the next CBA, give that money to some vets that have proven themselves worth it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Oh wow, so you place all the blame squarely on Bosa? That would seem to be an island POV compared to most. 

I agree with you that the team is going to be upset however this ends and because the Chargers have poisoned this guy's entrance into the NFL, he loses out and so much that other rookies got to experience, I really think you should at least cut the blame in half between the 2 sides and even then I still tip it towards the Chargers because of their track history. 

Not sure where Bosa went wrong but I also think once it was obvious that SD was going to go this route that perhaps he started making other plans. 

I have it at 35/40% Chargers blame. I also see them with the leverage. At this point the team is the team with or without Bosa. The Chargers will always be in the NFL. Bosa won't. My main frustration with the Chargers is that they had  weeks to talk to him and his people. Once the Eagles traded for #2 the Chargers were essentially on the clock and should have been acting like it. There is no excuse for them to not see this coming. They look completely incompetent at the worst possible time.

That still doesn't excuse Bosa though. Sign your deal and suit up. That's how it works if you want to play football. Chargers are pot-committed with little to lose (most picks are busts). They will survive this. Bosa thinks he's pot-committed, but he has everything to lose and should fold, imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Sebowski said:

I have it at 35/40% Chargers blame. I also see them with the leverage. At this point the team is the team with or without Bosa. The Chargers will always be in the NFL. Bosa won't. My main frustration with the Chargers is that they had  weeks to talk to him and his people. Once the Eagles traded for #2 the Chargers were essentially on the clock and should have been acting like it. There is no excuse for them to not see this coming. They look completely incompetent at the worst possible time.

That still doesn't excuse Bosa though. Sign your deal and suit up. That's how it works if you want to play football. Chargers are pot-committed with little to lose (most picks are busts). They will survive this. Bosa thinks he's pot-committed, but he has everything to lose and should fold, imo.

It would seem in your POV that the player must always sign the deal. That seems like a pretty slanted deck. 

Too bad that Roger Badall can't step in and get these two to sit down...oh that's right, he only acts in the best interest of the owners. 

I understand why you feel as you do and you don't seem to love the ownership. I really think Bosa's rookie experience has been sorely taken and ripped from him by San Diego, this is a terrible look for them and i don't see how it will improve the product on the field with all the players who will avoid them like the plague.

Look what happened to the Niners overnight once folks stopped wanting to play for them. Harbaugh left and everyone suddenly was worried about their long term health and moving on to other places quickly. The environment can turn toxic like it has for certain organizations. I feel like San Diego is going to suffer thru a downtrend for a while now, karma has been awful to them. 

Didn't the Chargers make Vincent Jackson want to run out of there with his hair on fire? Maybe they should write an actual book with all the players they have tried to hose over the years. 

Edited by Ministry of Pain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Arodin said:

Unlike Bosa, Zeke got to be around for months of OTAs in which the offense was installed, then had the benefit of a summer to study the playbook, and if needed get help from fellow players and coaches in understanding the nuances.

Bosa was around for OTAs. I think he missed two practices before training camp started.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ace08 said:

...now the Chargers are trying to take it a step further and get a second "win" by compounding it with offset language that has not been forced upon a pick this high since that new CBA was established.

Carson Wentz down? Since the new CBA was established, every top five pick has had the offset language that the Chargers are insisting on except for those drafted by the Rams and Jaguars. (And kind of the Titans, who included offset language in Mariota's contract that was less stringent.)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be crazy for Bosa to see this to the end.  Just too much to lose.  The team knows it and is using it against him - as is their right.  It would also be crazy for him to fake an injury at some point during the season.  But people getting bullied sometimes do crazy things...

And he IS getting bullied.  Releasing VERY misleading statements through social media in an attempt to sway public opinion?  That's the move?

San Diego has already lost this.  Whether or not they lose his services for this year or for all years, they certainly have lost what his season COULD have been this year, may have lost an opportunity to resign him down the road, and they haven't done much to shake their reputation for being cheap and petty with their players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Holy Schneikes said:

It would be crazy for Bosa to see this to the end.  Just too much to lose.  The team knows it and is using it against him - as is their right.  It would also be crazy for him to fake an injury at some point during the season.  But people getting bullied sometimes do crazy things...

And he IS getting bullied.  Releasing VERY misleading statements through social media in an attempt to sway public opinion?  That's the move?

San Diego has already lost this.  Whether or not they lose his services for this year or for all years, they certainly have lost what his season COULD have been this year, may have lost an opportunity to resign him down the road, and they haven't done much to shake their reputation for being cheap and petty with their players.

His last offer was more than fair.  He's not being bullied or a victim.  He's shown he's as much a part of the problem as the Chargers.  It's a lose-lose.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This whole situation pisses me off since the Bolts should never have taken Bosa in the first place...Jalen Ramsey sitting there and they take this over-rated guy.  SMH.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, jonessed said:

His last offer was more than fair.  He's not being bullied or a victim.  He's shown he's as much a part of the problem as the Chargers.  It's a lose-lose.

There is a vast difference of opinion on that first statement.  Some believe it is fair, many others don't.  There are really only two significant things the rookies can negotiate on these days.  Bosa's team has said they will give in on one of them.  The Chargers have said, nope, we'll have both our way thank you, because that's the way we do things here.

 

Here are the Charger's statements:

  • An initial signing bonus payment that is larger than any player in the league has received in the last two drafts.
  • More money in this calendar year than every player in this year's draft except one (QB Carson Wentz)
  • The largest payment and the highest percentage of signing bonus received in the first calendar year of any Chargers' first-round selection since the inception of the current Collective Bargaining Agreement.
  • From the owner: " I’m highly, highly disappointed in the path we’ve had to take. It’s so overly clear we had no choice. It would have been more difficult if I felt they were being reasonable. But when you’re dealing with someone who isn’t reasonable, it makes it easy. I’m blown away. At all costs, I wanted to avoid going down this road. They made it overly clear we had no other option. … It’s absolutely asinine. "

I'm not sure what the first statement means.  What is the INITIAL bonus payment?  When are the rest of the payments?  How much are they?  In a vacuum it's hard to say whether this is relevant or not.

The 2nd one is absolute drivel.  He's the 3rd pick, so duh, his first year money is going to be higher than most.  Wentz is higher - OK he's the 2nd pick so no shock there.  He agrred to the offset language before the draft but got almost ALL of his bonus money in the first year.  That leaves Goff.  Goff doesn't have offset language in his contract - which is probably a bigger deal than any of the rest of this stuff.  So he took a little less of his bonus money in the first calendar year.  So this statement is truly meaningless.

The 3rd one has even less value.  Bosa is the highest pick BY FAR the Chargers have had since the CBA.  So no #### he's going to get more money than their other 1st round picks.

Then the owner of you new company calls you unreasonable and asinine, saying he had NO choice.  He had choices.  He could have done a Goff type deal  with no offset, or a Wentz type deal with essentially no bonus deferral- either one would have answered the mail.  He chose to do neither.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Holy Schneikes said:

He could have done a Goff type deal  with no offset, or a Wentz type deal with essentially no bonus deferral- either one would have answered the mail.  He chose to do neither.

So it would be reasonable for the Chargers to offer the #3 pick exactly what the #1 or #2 pick got, but it's clearly unreasonable to offer the #3 pick something in between what the #1 or #2 pick got and what the #4 pick got?

The Chargers are at fault here, no doubt. They waited way too long to make a reasonable offer. But the most recent offer (now withdrawn) was reasonable by every measure I can think of. They didn't offer to remove the offset language -- but almost no teams do. They offered to pay 85% of the signing bonus in 2016. Yeah, Wentz got a higher percentage, but nobody else did. It's a worse offer than the guys drafted ahead of him got, but a better offer than anyone drafted after him got (although comparing to Goff and Ramsey is hard because offset versus bonus is apples versus oranges).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

So it would be reasonable for the Chargers to offer the #3 pick exactly what the #1 or #2 pick got, but it's clearly unreasonable to offer the #3 pick something in between what the #1 or #2 pick got and what the #4 pick got?

The Chargers are at fault here, no doubt. They waited way too long to make a reasonable offer. But the most recent offer (now withdrawn) was reasonable by every measure I can think of. They didn't offer to remove the offset language -- but almost no teams do. They offered to pay 85% of the signing bonus in 2016. Yeah, Wentz got a higher percentage, but nobody else did. It's a worse offer than the guys drafted ahead of him got, but a better offer than anyone drafted after him got (although comparing to Goff and Ramsey is hard because offset versus bonus is apples versus oranges).

So if I read that right the Chargers low balled him in a sense all the way up until the last minute. Then they came with the offer they should have proposed months ago and want Bosa to forget how they've treated him up to this point. 

They should call him today and give him everything he wants. They started this mess playing hardball for basically no reason. There's a price for pulling crap like this. I mean it's not like the NFL doesn't have these rookies over a barrel artificially suppressing their wages with this bull crap rookie scale. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is pretty senseless. Bosa should sign and salvage his season, but at this point I'd almost like to see him reenter the draft and see what he lost. I feel bad for Bolts fans, that's a premium pick, could have been a great one.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

So it would be reasonable for the Chargers to offer the #3 pick exactly what the #1 or #2 pick got, but it's clearly unreasonable to offer the #3 pick something in between what the #1 or #2 pick got and what the #4 pick got?

The Chargers are at fault here, no doubt. They waited way too long to make a reasonable offer. But the most recent offer (now withdrawn) was reasonable by every measure I can think of. They didn't offer to remove the offset language -- but almost no teams do. They offered to pay 85% of the signing bonus in 2016. Yeah, Wentz got a higher percentage, but nobody else did. It's a worse offer than the guys drafted ahead of him got, but a better offer than anyone drafted after him got (although comparing to Goff and Ramsey is hard because offset versus bonus is apples versus oranges).

Since the beginning of the current CBA, no third overall pick has had both offset and language AND bonus deferral into the next year.  This year, 19 of the first 24 picks have had their ENTIRE bonus paid before the end of the calendar year.  It's not like it's unheard of.

The Chargers' "best" offer may or may not have been "reasonable".  But it would be the worst deal signed by a number three so far.  Hardly the amazing offer the Chargers represented it to be in their social media smear campaign.  It probably WAS an amazing offer by Charger rookie standards, but that doesn't mean it was amazing by "rest of NFL" standards.  That offer was certainly NOT better than anyone drafted after him if you consider draft position.  Yeah, he'll get more money by default, but a high percentage of those following him got better terms on the only negotiable items.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bottom line is that the Chargers hold all of the power and they know that. They look really bad but Bosa will have no choice but to sign a deal, otherwise he stands to lose a lot of money. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Milkman said:

So if I read that right the Chargers low balled him in a sense all the way up until the last minute. Then they came with the offer they should have proposed months ago and want Bosa to forget how they've treated him up to this point. 

They should call him today and give him everything he wants. They started this mess playing hardball for basically no reason. There's a price for pulling crap like this. I mean it's not like the NFL doesn't have these rookies over a barrel artificially suppressing their wages with this bull crap rookie scale. 

Pretty much, yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Holy Schneikes said:

But it would be the worst deal signed by a number three so far.

This is a kind of cherry picking. The Jaguars have had the number three pick in each of the last two years, and they're one of the two teams (along with the Rams) that waive the offset language. It makes more sense to look at all the top five picks and not focus on just the number three pick. Top five picks nearly always have part of their bonus deferred -- it's a question of how much. Is 85% too much? Maybe, but I don't know how one can argue that it's out of line with the trend of the other top five picks. (Wentz got more, Elliot and everyone else got less.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, ldizzle said:

The bottom line is that the Chargers hold all of the power and they know that. They look really bad but Bosa will have no choice but to sign a deal, otherwise he stands to lose a lot of money. 

I wouldn't say they have ALL of the power.  Teams hold enjoy a huge advantage with these rookie deals, but they do have some risk as well.  It is possible (however unlikely) that they get NOTHING out of their 3rd overall pick.  Don't think they'd like that.  There is pressure on both sides.  At this point, this deal is being held up by WHEN about 2.5M is paid (not IF, or how much, but when).  It would be ridiculous for Bosa to not sign over that, and it would be ridiculous for the Chargers to risk losing their #3 pick over that.  But here we are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A slight correction about taxes from the previous page - it does not matter what state these players are a residence of, they will pay the tax rate of the state the earn the money in.  For example, each player pays a different amount of taxes per game by what state they are in.  So in this case, Bosa will be getting the full California tax for all bonuses and deferred money.  The only portion not taxed at California's extravagant rate will be away games outside of the state of California.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

This is a kind of cherry picking. The Jaguars have had the number three pick in each of the last two years, and they're one of the two teams (along with the Rams) that waive the offset language. It makes more sense to look at all the top five picks and not focus on just the number three pick. Top five picks nearly always have part of their bonus deferred -- it's a question of how much. Is 85% too much? Maybe, but I don't know how one can argue that it's out of line with the trend of the other top five picks. (Wentz got more, Elliot and everyone else got less.)

OK, but the top five from this year isn't a fair comparison either.  Two of those guys had no offset language, so you can throw them out.  So you are looking at #2 and #4.  Better than one and worse than the other.

But "historically" if you want to look at top 5 here is a blurb from CBS sports:

18 of 24 top-five picks since 2012 either have no offsets or an offset without signing bonus deferred into following calendar year. The six with both offsets and a deferred portion of the signing bonus include Carson Wentz, who reportedly voluntarily deferred the last $1 million of his signing bonus until January 2017 for tax purposes.

Based on that, the Charger's best offer was in the bottom 5 of those 24 deals.  Could be lower if some of those deals were Like Wentz' with a lower deferral percentage.  For all we know, the 85% could be the 2nd worst ever behind Zeke's deal, but the BEST would be bottom 5.  So by either standard, his actual draft position or top 5s, his BEST offer was near bottom of the barrel and the team publicly called him an ### for not taking it.

Edited by Holy Schneikes
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Ksquared said:

A slight correction about taxes from the previous page - it does not matter what state these players are a residence of, they will pay the tax rate of the state the earn the money in.  For example, each player pays a different amount of taxes per game by what state they are in.  So in this case, Bosa will be getting the full California tax for all bonuses and deferred money.  The only portion not taxed at California's extravagant rate will be away games outside of the state of California.

This is contrary to what has been reported. I think what you say is true for (a) salary and (b) bonuses earned after he starts playing in residing in CA. The up front portion of his signing bonus is paid to him while he is a resident of FL. The signing bonus is not attached to games like salary is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Just Win Baby said:

This is contrary to what has been reported. I think what you say is true for (a) salary and (b) bonuses earned after he starts playing in residing in CA. The up front portion of his signing bonus is paid to him while he is a resident of FL. The signing bonus is not attached to games like salary is.

If this were the case everyone would have residence in Florida. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

If this were the case everyone would have residence in Florida. 

Well, someone is free to prove me wrong with a link. If what I have posted is indeed wrong, then Bosa is even dumber than I thought for taking the stance he has taken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

Well, someone is free to prove me wrong with a link. If what I have posted is indeed wrong, then Bosa is even dumber than I thought for taking the stance he has taken.

The tax thing is peanuts compared to what he is losing in local endorsements by not being here in San Diego and taking part in the community. 

Edited by Sebowski

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.