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Need Some Fatherly Advice (1 Viewer)

slowkidz

Footballguy
I'm having problems at home with my two sons (12, 9).  They are good boys, but play a little too rough at times where it becomes a fight and someone ends up crying.  I try to intervene and they stop until I'm out of sight, then go at it again.  I get frustrated and yell a lot.  Anymore it feels like all I do is yell at them.  When I try to talk to them I get the :eyeroll: or the side-mouth look.  That sets me off more.  I don't know what to do anymore.  

We have fun together playing catch, video games, or just goofing around - but when I leave them alone, they go at each other.  I'll discipline them and they decide to do whatever they want instead.  Sometimes I think it's boys being boys and seeing what they can get away without the parents knowing.  We find out, discipline, but that doesn't mean it won't happen again.

One of my boys doesn't try much at school - just says he's "stupid" and that's all there is to it. Except he is smart - just too lazy to try.  He does well in school (mainly B's), but is in a Reading Intervention Program.  My wife can get him to do math and read grade appropriate books, but I can't.  He just "guesses" on math problems, or says he can't read the words on the page.  I get frustrated because I can see he's not trying.  This turns into more yelling with one of us walking away.  This occurs more often than I would like, almost daily.

I don't want my relationship with the boys to be like this.  How do I get past being frustrated?  How can I control my anger?  When they were younger, it was easier.  Now that they're older, not so much.  

My father didn't interact much with me.  He didn't help with homework.  He didn't play catch or video games.  I want to be the father I didn't have.  I want to be a good one for my boys.  But I feel I'm not living up to that expectation.

Any advice from other fathers on how to handle these situations, or on just being a father in general?  The best role model I have are the old 80s sitcom dads - and there's no way I'm fitting into one of those sweaters!

 
Family counseling.  There are some underlying issues going on beneath the surface that need to be addressed.  It's a really good way to get connected to each other even if things were going well, too.  

 
How's the kid's vision?  You sure he can actually see the words?
He wears glasses.  We had the same thought a couple of years ago and had him go to a Pediatric Optometrist.  He definitely needs them to read, and we make sure he has them on everyday.

With the boy who doesn't seem to try much at school... have you done an ADHD screening with him? 
We've talked about this, and I think we may need to do this soon.  He's one that doesn't seem to have a notion as to when to stop, or pay attention.  Downside is he's also the older of the two, and his little brother looks up to him.  So I at least know where the younger guy gets it from.

 
Looks like two separate issues to me:

1. Boys fighting. I have an 10 year old and 8 year old (boys). They do the same things sometimes. Get along great and play for hours, then all of a sudden they just start at each other. Me and my brothers did the same thing when I was a kid. Sometimes kids just don't get along. If you suspect something else may be at play, start creating a "special time" for each of them once a month or so. We've done this with all three of our kids (have a younger daughter also). We carve out a couple of hours and take them to do something alone of their choosing. Usually gets them talking about any issues, and it gets them away from the other ones to talk about any potential problems. Might be a good idea to do with your boys. They may just need a break from each other.

2. The child at school. Other good suggestions here already. You may also take your alone time to ask him if he's having issues with a teacher, reading the text, or anything else. 

Edit: the fact that you are asking for advice makes you a father who gives a darn. you are doing fine there.

 
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man... tough call, and I can kind of see this coming down the pipes (my kids are younger- 9 & 5) regarding discipline. 

seems to me that it's important to separate emotion from any disciplining you do with them; getting angry doesn't solve or even help the situation for any of you. 

make sure you set up rules that are clear, and punishments that are just as clear. if 'x' happens than 'y' will happen. no guess work on either of your parts- younger kids for me (more pliable and willing to abide, granted), but I've found it helps to explain to them exactly why 'x' is not ok. but then- of course- you have to implement the punishment... and without emotion. if they don't follow the punishment... you need to make sure they do- with clear "if y isn't followed, then z, etc will happen".

hope that makes sense... 

re: the school stuff... I've already seen with my oldest that he listens to my wife in a way regarding homework that he just doesn't with me. something I do makes him shut down... so I have to figure out how to do better with it myself. so basically... I've got bupkis there for you. but maybe... maybe... instead of being a guy and correcting him (not sure if that's what you're doing) the way we do, listen through how he's doing things and do your best to support it (even if wrong) but subvert it... somehow... in a supportive way. again... I'm not winning this battle lately, so :shrug:

 
:goodposting:    Agree with Chief. You're wanting to be a better father than your own, and I think every father should aspire to that. 

I second the motion on counseling. The boys may talk to a counselor more openly than they will to you (or their mom), even if you feel that you have a good relationship with them. 

 
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My daughter has a friend who had trouble with "reading words on the page", it was actually dyslexia (interesting read here). Maybe check into that?

 
There is a really good parenting class called Love and Logic. It has helped us and we are still in the early learning stages. We have 4 strong willed boys so I understand some of what you are going through. 

 
Can't give a whole lot of advice since there are probably a whole ton of factors playing in to these issues I don't know.  However, for the part about them always being at each others' throat, it might not be as bad as it looks.  I'm not saying I can guarantee it, but its possible.

My boys are of a similar age (13 and 14/almost 15 now).  They are oil and water together.  They aren't physical with each other, but they know what buttons to push that really bothers the other.  I'm not talking just typical sticks and stones stuff, but really knowing what to say to hurt each other.  They don't show this kind of meanness to anyone else, so it is really frustrating.  I feel I am constantly "breaking them up" from their verbal spats.  It is more from the older son to the younger, but it goes both ways.  I feel bad that it doesn't seem like they really like each other at all (they played better when they were younger, but the last 5+ years, they are bickering more than getting along).  I struggled with trying to find ways to help them improve their relationship, as it hurts to see them interact like this (my brother and I aren't very close anymore, so that's a big reason why it bothers me).

Anyways, they play on the same school basketball team.  Older brother is the better player, leader on the team, but has a temper (not unusual for getting a technical for an outburst or frustration play).  Younger brother is ok, but far more competitive, loves to win, always gives 100%, backs down from no one.  Well, we were playing our big rival.  They beat us the last couple of years and we really didn't have a chance to win, but it was a good competitive game.  It got a little heated, the players were talking smack to each other, the parents were even a little hostile for a school game (Catholic league at that).  At some point in the second half, older son got a T.  It wasn't out of the ordinary as I've said, so I didn't think much of it.  I'm the asst coach, but let the other coach address my kids, so I let it go until after the game.  After the game, me, the boys, and my wife are talking about the game.  My wife says "why'd you get that technical?  You have to learn to control yourself.  You're hurting team when you do that!"  He response "but that kid (other teams big smack talker) wouldn't stop picking on (younger brother)!"  So, even though they get into it with each other, they do know that they have each others back when they are outside the house.

TLDR, it could be a case of getting too much time with each other and needing a break, but deep down it isn't as bad as it seems.

 
Lots of good advice here. I've got 3 boys - 11, 9 and 5 and while there are times that they get along amazingly, which are the moments I cherish, there are times that they are like cats and dogs.

Regarding the discipline, you need to find something that works for them - Yelling is not the way (and I am very guilty of this), so finding the punishment that actually affects them is. Not physical, but something like take away all electronics, or having friends over, etc. Easier said than done, but find a chore or activity that will require them to work together as a team, and until they accomplish that without arguing, they don't get X back.... whether that is an electronic, video games, able to watch a favorite TV show, etc.

And sometimes, you can do nothing more than separate them - put them in separate rooms and no interaction until they can both be nice to one another.

 
Parenting tweens ain't easy, but it's simple. If it's complicated, you're either doing it wrong or haven't coordinated with their mother. You two don't have to agree, but you do have to know where each of you stand on things. Children are like prison inmates, they have time and energy to conspire against their guardians that the caretakers usually don't have time and energy to prevent. If you're not squared up, they'll work you and her like pimps dey hos. Which leads me to....

1) Are you proud of how you provide for your family? If you ain't, GET proud. If you ain't giving basic stuff, time (including either helping mom if she works too or having a defined role in how the household is kept up) and interest to your household, shore that up. Once you have, or already are there, or even if you can't, shore up your mind that you are absolutely proud of who you are, what you do and how you act. Kids need to see that and showing that to em will save you a lot of work, mostly because shaming is wheelhouse stuff for a tween.

2) Require performance from your children. Do not praise them before you challenge them, then praise them as much as you can. If not brilliance, focus; if not focus, effort. And always require that they care and show respect, even when they don't respect. Press your underachiever. Then press him again. If he breaks down or goes dramatically sullen, then he's dealing with a real prob, so help him all you can. Otherwise, he's working you, the system, his own laziness or all three.

3) Draw as many or as few lines as you want, but do not move them once you do.

4) Do not bribe your children. Corruption breeds nothing but more corruption, on both sides. 

5) Finally, you have more stuff that they want/need than they have which you want/need. They know that better than you do. Base their freedoms and your efforts on their behalf (rides, dues, weekends, extras, etc) on how they comply with expectations, how selfish they are and how well and honestly they account for themselves. If they are trying, spoil them as much as you can. If they aren't, shrug and tell em you don't have to do extra if they do nothin'. nufced

6) Superfinally, once again - coordinate this with mom.

Be your best you, not their best you. They still want to follow you more than anyone else in the world. Make sure they can. GL -

 
I'm having problems at home with my two sons (12, 9).  They are good boys, but play a little too rough at times where it becomes a fight and someone ends up crying.  I try to intervene and they stop until I'm out of sight, then go at it again.  I get frustrated and yell a lot.  Anymore it feels like all I do is yell at them.  When I try to talk to them I get the :eyeroll: or the side-mouth look.  That sets me off more.  I don't know what to do anymore.  
Went through the same thing as a kid.  Let them play, fight, cry...don't know why you have to get upset about it.  Tell them that's what they get for playing so rough.

 
One of my boys doesn't try much at school - just says he's "stupid" and that's all there is to it. Except he is smart - just too lazy to try.  He does well in school (mainly B's), but is in a Reading Intervention Program.  My wife can get him to do math and read grade appropriate books, but I can't.  He just "guesses" on math problems, or says he can't read the words on the page.  I get frustrated because I can see he's not trying.  This turns into more yelling with one of us walking away.  This occurs more often than I would like, almost daily.
You should set up a reward system to motivate him to try.  Would you show up to work every day if you didn't get a paycheck? 

I have a sticker chart that I use to reward my daughter for doing her homework and extra reading.  She fills it up (30 spots, takes about 2 weeks to earn something) and I give her $15 to buy a toy. 

 
I struggled with trying to find ways to help them improve their relationship, as it hurts to see them interact like this (my brother and I aren't very close anymore, so that's a big reason why it bothers me).
Have you talked them about this?  Maybe they care more if they thought about it that way.

 
I have  13 & 10 year old boys...& I used to frantically fret as you do, but then realized, "boys will be boys".  No easy answers, sometimes you just have to let them be... they'll figure it out, & eventually co-exist. #Badfather.

 
Also, you have to tell them that at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is family. And then walk the walk.

"When all your friends are gone, you'll still have us"

 
There is a really good parenting class called Love and Logic. It has helped us and we are still in the early learning stages. We have 4 strong willed boys so I understand some of what you are going through. 
Yikes:

1.0 out of 5 starsI'm hoping to GOD that you read the negative reviews with as much seriousness as the positive ones.
By Audra Browne on September 15, 2011


Format: Hardcover Verified Purchase


So, I am not going to try to avoid redundancy here; I am just going to chime into the chorus of people stating that this book takes sound psychological principals, twists them into opinionated, super Christian fundamentalist parenting "tips" which, if applied, will most likely end up as abuse. The way I see it, this book has some major, horrible issues.

My background: I am a linguist and cognitive scientist who advocates neurological nurturing and optimal brain health through parenting the sound, scientific way. I have a two year old, and I am a devoutly practicing Orthodox Christian. So note that when I say that I find this book lacking in the Christian principle of love, of treating others how one would like to be treated, and full of evangelical wrong-headedness. It is also chock-full of bad neurological strategies, and takes advantage of a child's dependence and immature brain structure by making them choose out of helplessness to the situation. This is dangerous stuff.

Problems outlined:
1. Chiming into the chorus - no innocent animal should ever be allowed to suffer; If we took the sound conclusion that the authors make elsewhere in the book, that warnings allow kids to know that they have stretch room in our discipline habits, and that we should avoid warnings and make a serious point to let kids know that unacceptable behavior has an immediate consequence, then the logical conclusion to come to is that if your kid can't take care of the dog they wanted, they have to find that dog (with help, of course) a loving and better home than the one they're providing...not withhold food from the dog. It's cruel, and the dog never deserved to have to suffer. Just a little side thought: it is widely known that serial killers do just these sorts of things to animals when they are little kids. Whether that's a cause of the inner cruelty within these children, or a recipe for becoming a serial killer bears little import in the light that, either way, you don't want to find out by using this method with your kid.

2. It is stated in the book that kids model neatness behavior in their parents and stick with it as teens. Now, if that's true, explain for me please, why even the best kids with parents who model ideal neatness habits end up cluttering their rooms beyond recognition as teenagers? Could it be that this is not an issue of neatness, but a condition of a developmental stage?

3. It is stated in the book that kids who do not learn to "think for themselves with an inner voice" will automatically succumb to the outer voice of peer pressure whenever it comes along. Sociological and psychological studies tell us that the reason that kids emulate peers is that they are attempting to make different choices in the struggle for autonomy, but learning still has to take place optimally as emulation of *someone*. These peer influences are actually beneficial and necessary to a person's psychological health and growth, and kids are bound to make some life errors, but they never learn anything without trying on different emulation roles. Kids who know they are supported and loved, not manipulated and twisted to the parent's needs or wants, are those who are much less likely to choose poorly.

3. Charging your kids for anything (chores, the babysitter, etc.) is a problem. It is undermining the role of a parent as an ally to do this.

4. I was absolutely horrified at the notion of leaving for the night and instructing the sitter to be unresponsive to their need for comfort or water, or whatever, telling the kid that it's because they wake up at night that they have chosen poorly. Kids have to have a reliable figure in their lives that does not abandon them in a time of real or perceived need. They do not specify how old they think a kid should be in order to complete this horrifying scenario. My fear is that the uninitiated person, who does not know about "neurological piggy-backing" and "self-regulatory soothing via reciprocated feedback" will employ this method on their kid, too young to really comprehend why they are not allowed to express a need at night, not knowing that this may cause separation anxiety and neurosis for the kid who just needs to have a caretaker that regulates emotion *with* them. They should retitle the last chapter "go the F*** to sleep" and sell it accompanying the book of the same title, as a "parenting tip" in seriousness instead of jest.

5. Taking any kid's toys without a promise that they'll get them back is a recipe for a kid to grow up resenting that action. Period.

6. The way this book advocates manipulative coercion, impossible choices, isolation, and withdrawal chills me.

7. The authors advocate "painful" spankings. They state that one should never spank unless they can really make it hurt, and they advocate it for kids under three, who are too little to understand why the person that should nurture and love them most is doing this.

8. Chiming in with the chorus again: never withhold food from a kid. It is abusive neglect to do so. It's also a pretty well-known fact that kids need to have appropriate blood sugar levels in order to develop necessary brain function and to behave well. Withholding food is not just abusive, but a bad suggestion, because hungry kids tend to misbehave. Note that the brain takes a long time to develop its connections and that withholding food is causing a child's brain to critically malfunction, at any age. Even one incident of this can be structurally damaging.

There are about a thousand more ways this book is a damaging, psychologically abusive book. Don't buy it. Don't employ its strategies. They are harmful at best. It is my thought that, as parents, we are trying to raise a kid to grow up into a successful person who has emotional regulation skills, sound reasoning abilities, and who will be a benefit to the world for having been in it. Furthermore, we are trying to pass on parenting skills via immersion. This book does little to satisfy those ends. It is therefore helpful to remember that what we teach our kids about our parenting style by modeling is what our great-great-great grandchildren may be learning, and it is a heavy thought to consider that by employing these strategies, we could be creating a neglect and abuse cycle that will last far longer than we'll be alive.

Please, do yourself and your kid(s) a favor, and buy a "positive parenting" book instead. There are points in this book well worth considering, yes, all having to do with logical conclusions and choices to make them, but to that end, I say that 'even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes'. I bought this book in hopes of finding an alternative to time-out, and what I got was a book full of cunning manipulation, deceptive "control" tactics, and an emphasis on developing a sort of parental narcissism to "regain control". Please, do not buy this book. Please. For the love of your child.

Trust someone who was parented in this general way (me), when I tell you that the outcomes expected in this book are not what you're going to get, because your child will be damaged forever by some of these tactics. I know I still resent some of these tactics, and I found myself plunged into a remembrance of what it was like to be the kid on the other end of a parent who thought that these sorts of tactics worked. I firmly believe that if my mother could have seen far into the future and known the damage that these tactics cause, that she would have done differently. We all would; therefore, my advice is not to buy this book, not to employ these practices, and not to embrace this sort of extreme "natural consequence" ideology, before you too, are the parent saying that all you wanted was relief from upsetting behaviors in the moment, and instead, what you got was a kid that resented and hated you for having been the parent that read this book and put it in action.


 
Yikes:

1.0 out of 5 starsI'm hoping to GOD that you read the negative reviews with as much seriousness as the positive ones.
By Audra Browne on September 15, 2011


Format: Hardcover Verified Purchase


So, I am not going to try to avoid redundancy here; I am just going to chime into the chorus of people stating that this book takes sound psychological principals, twists them into opinionated, super Christian fundamentalist parenting "tips" which, if applied, will most likely end up as abuse. The way I see it, this book has some major, horrible issues.

My background: I am a linguist and cognitive scientist who advocates neurological nurturing and optimal brain health through parenting the sound, scientific way. I have a two year old, and I am a devoutly practicing Orthodox Christian. So note that when I say that I find this book lacking in the Christian principle of love, of treating others how one would like to be treated, and full of evangelical wrong-headedness. It is also chock-full of bad neurological strategies, and takes advantage of a child's dependence and immature brain structure by making them choose out of helplessness to the situation. This is dangerous stuff.

Problems outlined:
1. Chiming into the chorus - no innocent animal should ever be allowed to suffer; If we took the sound conclusion that the authors make elsewhere in the book, that warnings allow kids to know that they have stretch room in our discipline habits, and that we should avoid warnings and make a serious point to let kids know that unacceptable behavior has an immediate consequence, then the logical conclusion to come to is that if your kid can't take care of the dog they wanted, they have to find that dog (with help, of course) a loving and better home than the one they're providing...not withhold food from the dog. It's cruel, and the dog never deserved to have to suffer. Just a little side thought: it is widely known that serial killers do just these sorts of things to animals when they are little kids. Whether that's a cause of the inner cruelty within these children, or a recipe for becoming a serial killer bears little import in the light that, either way, you don't want to find out by using this method with your kid.

2. It is stated in the book that kids model neatness behavior in their parents and stick with it as teens. Now, if that's true, explain for me please, why even the best kids with parents who model ideal neatness habits end up cluttering their rooms beyond recognition as teenagers? Could it be that this is not an issue of neatness, but a condition of a developmental stage?

3. It is stated in the book that kids who do not learn to "think for themselves with an inner voice" will automatically succumb to the outer voice of peer pressure whenever it comes along. Sociological and psychological studies tell us that the reason that kids emulate peers is that they are attempting to make different choices in the struggle for autonomy, but learning still has to take place optimally as emulation of *someone*. These peer influences are actually beneficial and necessary to a person's psychological health and growth, and kids are bound to make some life errors, but they never learn anything without trying on different emulation roles. Kids who know they are supported and loved, not manipulated and twisted to the parent's needs or wants, are those who are much less likely to choose poorly.

3. Charging your kids for anything (chores, the babysitter, etc.) is a problem. It is undermining the role of a parent as an ally to do this.

4. I was absolutely horrified at the notion of leaving for the night and instructing the sitter to be unresponsive to their need for comfort or water, or whatever, telling the kid that it's because they wake up at night that they have chosen poorly. Kids have to have a reliable figure in their lives that does not abandon them in a time of real or perceived need. They do not specify how old they think a kid should be in order to complete this horrifying scenario. My fear is that the uninitiated person, who does not know about "neurological piggy-backing" and "self-regulatory soothing via reciprocated feedback" will employ this method on their kid, too young to really comprehend why they are not allowed to express a need at night, not knowing that this may cause separation anxiety and neurosis for the kid who just needs to have a caretaker that regulates emotion *with* them. They should retitle the last chapter "go the F*** to sleep" and sell it accompanying the book of the same title, as a "parenting tip" in seriousness instead of jest.

5. Taking any kid's toys without a promise that they'll get them back is a recipe for a kid to grow up resenting that action. Period.

6. The way this book advocates manipulative coercion, impossible choices, isolation, and withdrawal chills me.

7. The authors advocate "painful" spankings. They state that one should never spank unless they can really make it hurt, and they advocate it for kids under three, who are too little to understand why the person that should nurture and love them most is doing this.

8. Chiming in with the chorus again: never withhold food from a kid. It is abusive neglect to do so. It's also a pretty well-known fact that kids need to have appropriate blood sugar levels in order to develop necessary brain function and to behave well. Withholding food is not just abusive, but a bad suggestion, because hungry kids tend to misbehave. Note that the brain takes a long time to develop its connections and that withholding food is causing a child's brain to critically malfunction, at any age. Even one incident of this can be structurally damaging.

There are about a thousand more ways this book is a damaging, psychologically abusive book. Don't buy it. Don't employ its strategies. They are harmful at best. It is my thought that, as parents, we are trying to raise a kid to grow up into a successful person who has emotional regulation skills, sound reasoning abilities, and who will be a benefit to the world for having been in it. Furthermore, we are trying to pass on parenting skills via immersion. This book does little to satisfy those ends. It is therefore helpful to remember that what we teach our kids about our parenting style by modeling is what our great-great-great grandchildren may be learning, and it is a heavy thought to consider that by employing these strategies, we could be creating a neglect and abuse cycle that will last far longer than we'll be alive.

Please, do yourself and your kid(s) a favor, and buy a "positive parenting" book instead. There are points in this book well worth considering, yes, all having to do with logical conclusions and choices to make them, but to that end, I say that 'even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes'. I bought this book in hopes of finding an alternative to time-out, and what I got was a book full of cunning manipulation, deceptive "control" tactics, and an emphasis on developing a sort of parental narcissism to "regain control". Please, do not buy this book. Please. For the love of your child.

Trust someone who was parented in this general way (me), when I tell you that the outcomes expected in this book are not what you're going to get, because your child will be damaged forever by some of these tactics. I know I still resent some of these tactics, and I found myself plunged into a remembrance of what it was like to be the kid on the other end of a parent who thought that these sorts of tactics worked. I firmly believe that if my mother could have seen far into the future and known the damage that these tactics cause, that she would have done differently. We all would; therefore, my advice is not to buy this book, not to employ these practices, and not to embrace this sort of extreme "natural consequence" ideology, before you too, are the parent saying that all you wanted was relief from upsetting behaviors in the moment, and instead, what you got was a kid that resented and hated you for having been the parent that read this book and put it in action.
Holy ####! 

 
He response "but that kid (other teams big smack talker) wouldn't stop picking on (younger brother)!"  So, even though they get into it with each other, they do know that they have each others back when they are outside the house.


Yep. I was the older brother by a couple years and picked on my brother plenty, but if someone else tried to I became his biggest defender. You almost wish you could manufacture that scenario. We played the same sport in HS and that helped get us on the same side so to speak.

 
He wears glasses.  We had the same thought a couple of years ago and had him go to a Pediatric Optometrist.  He definitely needs them to read, and we make sure he has them on everyday.

We've talked about this, and I think we may need to do this soon.  He's one that doesn't seem to have a notion as to when to stop, or pay attention.  Downside is he's also the older of the two, and his little brother looks up to him.  So I at least know where the younger guy gets it from.
Your sons sound exactly like mine age wise and school wise. Reading your first post made me feel like I wrote it.  As far as the fighting, it is part of what brothers do unfortunately. Sometimes you just have to let them duke it out and when one of them stars complaining just tell them you don't want to hear it. Pick your battles.  As far as the older one with school, definitely get him checked for ADD. We had our son checked in grade school and the medication has helped during the school day homework can still be a battle.  Keep your chin up, I an sure you are a great dad. We just feel like failures in these situations, but all dads have gone through it.

 
I am on board with wikkid.

so here goes: my kids are 12 and 9.

what do they see when they see you? What would you think of you if you were 12? What do you expect of them? Do you exceed those expectations - in terms of your interactions with them and their mom? What is your level of attention and interactions?

sleep- they need 9 or 10 hours minimum and you need them in bed that long. You can't be your best you with them at 10 or 11 PM.

Dont argue with them. Be matter of fact. Be consistent. Kids have a job- to push and strectch every boundary. They will find every leak. Have logical consequences for behaviors: when they display good effort, empathy and generosity, you meet them with more. When they lack respect, meet their basic needs and not much more. If you say, " If you do that one more time, where are leaving" then if they do it again, you must leave- even if you are having a good time. 

Dont try to make an outburst moment a teaching moment. Walk away. Come back and talk later. Reinforce your expectations.

about reading: does he see you read books? If not, why should he. 30 minutes before bedtime ( and you should have a consistent bed time) is quiet reading time. Read with them. REad to them- even at this age. Don't pick what they should read- find something they like. Talk to your local librarian. What does your some like. Let him read one chapter one night ( why you read in the room with him) and you read the next chapter to him the next night.

i could write a bunch more, but I probably seem (am?) too bossy and have written enough. Short version, you need to be one the same page as their mom, consistent, and a better more engaged person (most of the time) than you expect them to be. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yikes:

1.0 out of 5 starsI'm hoping to GOD that you read the negative reviews with as much seriousness as the positive ones.
By Audra Browne on September 15, 2011


Format: Hardcover Verified Purchase


So, I am not going to try to avoid redundancy here; I am just going to chime into the chorus of people stating that this book takes sound psychological principals, twists them into opinionated, super Christian fundamentalist parenting "tips" which, if applied, will most likely end up as abuse. The way I see it, this book has some major, horrible issues.

My background: I am a linguist and cognitive scientist who advocates neurological nurturing and optimal brain health through parenting the sound, scientific way. I have a two year old, and I am a devoutly practicing Orthodox Christian. So note that when I say that I find this book lacking in the Christian principle of love, of treating others how one would like to be treated, and full of evangelical wrong-headedness. It is also chock-full of bad neurological strategies, and takes advantage of a child's dependence and immature brain structure by making them choose out of helplessness to the situation. This is dangerous stuff.

Problems outlined:
1. Chiming into the chorus - no innocent animal should ever be allowed to suffer; If we took the sound conclusion that the authors make elsewhere in the book, that warnings allow kids to know that they have stretch room in our discipline habits, and that we should avoid warnings and make a serious point to let kids know that unacceptable behavior has an immediate consequence, then the logical conclusion to come to is that if your kid can't take care of the dog they wanted, they have to find that dog (with help, of course) a loving and better home than the one they're providing...not withhold food from the dog. It's cruel, and the dog never deserved to have to suffer. Just a little side thought: it is widely known that serial killers do just these sorts of things to animals when they are little kids. Whether that's a cause of the inner cruelty within these children, or a recipe for becoming a serial killer bears little import in the light that, either way, you don't want to find out by using this method with your kid.

2. It is stated in the book that kids model neatness behavior in their parents and stick with it as teens. Now, if that's true, explain for me please, why even the best kids with parents who model ideal neatness habits end up cluttering their rooms beyond recognition as teenagers? Could it be that this is not an issue of neatness, but a condition of a developmental stage?

3. It is stated in the book that kids who do not learn to "think for themselves with an inner voice" will automatically succumb to the outer voice of peer pressure whenever it comes along. Sociological and psychological studies tell us that the reason that kids emulate peers is that they are attempting to make different choices in the struggle for autonomy, but learning still has to take place optimally as emulation of *someone*. These peer influences are actually beneficial and necessary to a person's psychological health and growth, and kids are bound to make some life errors, but they never learn anything without trying on different emulation roles. Kids who know they are supported and loved, not manipulated and twisted to the parent's needs or wants, are those who are much less likely to choose poorly.

3. Charging your kids for anything (chores, the babysitter, etc.) is a problem. It is undermining the role of a parent as an ally to do this.

4. I was absolutely horrified at the notion of leaving for the night and instructing the sitter to be unresponsive to their need for comfort or water, or whatever, telling the kid that it's because they wake up at night that they have chosen poorly. Kids have to have a reliable figure in their lives that does not abandon them in a time of real or perceived need. They do not specify how old they think a kid should be in order to complete this horrifying scenario. My fear is that the uninitiated person, who does not know about "neurological piggy-backing" and "self-regulatory soothing via reciprocated feedback" will employ this method on their kid, too young to really comprehend why they are not allowed to express a need at night, not knowing that this may cause separation anxiety and neurosis for the kid who just needs to have a caretaker that regulates emotion *with* them. They should retitle the last chapter "go the F*** to sleep" and sell it accompanying the book of the same title, as a "parenting tip" in seriousness instead of jest.

5. Taking any kid's toys without a promise that they'll get them back is a recipe for a kid to grow up resenting that action. Period.

6. The way this book advocates manipulative coercion, impossible choices, isolation, and withdrawal chills me.

7. The authors advocate "painful" spankings. They state that one should never spank unless they can really make it hurt, and they advocate it for kids under three, who are too little to understand why the person that should nurture and love them most is doing this.

8. Chiming in with the chorus again: never withhold food from a kid. It is abusive neglect to do so. It's also a pretty well-known fact that kids need to have appropriate blood sugar levels in order to develop necessary brain function and to behave well. Withholding food is not just abusive, but a bad suggestion, because hungry kids tend to misbehave. Note that the brain takes a long time to develop its connections and that withholding food is causing a child's brain to critically malfunction, at any age. Even one incident of this can be structurally damaging.

There are about a thousand more ways this book is a damaging, psychologically abusive book. Don't buy it. Don't employ its strategies. They are harmful at best. It is my thought that, as parents, we are trying to raise a kid to grow up into a successful person who has emotional regulation skills, sound reasoning abilities, and who will be a benefit to the world for having been in it. Furthermore, we are trying to pass on parenting skills via immersion. This book does little to satisfy those ends. It is therefore helpful to remember that what we teach our kids about our parenting style by modeling is what our great-great-great grandchildren may be learning, and it is a heavy thought to consider that by employing these strategies, we could be creating a neglect and abuse cycle that will last far longer than we'll be alive.

Please, do yourself and your kid(s) a favor, and buy a "positive parenting" book instead. There are points in this book well worth considering, yes, all having to do with logical conclusions and choices to make them, but to that end, I say that 'even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes'. I bought this book in hopes of finding an alternative to time-out, and what I got was a book full of cunning manipulation, deceptive "control" tactics, and an emphasis on developing a sort of parental narcissism to "regain control". Please, do not buy this book. Please. For the love of your child.

Trust someone who was parented in this general way (me), when I tell you that the outcomes expected in this book are not what you're going to get, because your child will be damaged forever by some of these tactics. I know I still resent some of these tactics, and I found myself plunged into a remembrance of what it was like to be the kid on the other end of a parent who thought that these sorts of tactics worked. I firmly believe that if my mother could have seen far into the future and known the damage that these tactics cause, that she would have done differently. We all would; therefore, my advice is not to buy this book, not to employ these practices, and not to embrace this sort of extreme "natural consequence" ideology, before you too, are the parent saying that all you wanted was relief from upsetting behaviors in the moment, and instead, what you got was a kid that resented and hated you for having been the parent that read this book and put it in action.
Everything has its critics. You should check it out and then see what you think. 

 
There is a really good parenting class called Love and Logic. It has helped us and we are still in the early learning stages. We have 4 strong willed boys so I understand some of what you are going through. 


Great program.

 
I don't know you or your situation....but in a few posts here you sound too lenient and you sound like you have no idea what their lever is.  Grounding, taking eledrronics away, etc.  I am not saying you need to rule with an iron fist, but it sounds like they walk all over you right now.  

These things aren't a discussion or negotiation.  Kids sometimes need to be reeled in and shown what's acceptable and what's not.  Define those boundaries.

 
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I actually have some great advise for you; however, you stated you wanted advise from other fathers, so I can't help you.

 
 This turns into more yelling with one of us walking away.  This occurs more often than I would like, almost daily.
The first step is caring. The second step is trying. You obviously have those two down.

I think the next important step is stopping the yelling and storming away. Lots of times kids know they just have to outlast you for a bit and then they can go back to doing what they want. They sometimes even try to escalate it as quickly as possible. They need to know that you are dug in, but in a "no matter what this is getting done" kind of way, not in a "you are going to get in so much trouble" kind of way. 

Kids arent stupid. They quickly recognize when a father is calmly dug in and button pushing isn't geting them anywhere. 

 
Thanks everyone.  Good to see this isn't just me, even thought it feels that way.  Like I said, I didn't have the greatest father figure growing up - but I also was an only child.  So all of this brotherly fighting is new ground for me.  I usually am very patient and calm - but for some reason this just irritates and frustrates me.  I think it's because I just don't understand it.  Latest example was last night - oldest was sitting on the couch watching a baseball game.  Youngest came in the room singing loudly and jumped on top of his older brother.  Older shoved him off.  Younger cried out and kicked the Older.  Older yelled and pushed the Younger off the couch.  Younger cries like he lost his leg to a blender, then while crying, gets up and punches the Older in the gut.  Older starts to cry out and now both are just louder than I can handle.  I tell them to knock it off and quit crying.  They go at each other again.  I separate them and turn around to make dinner, and they're at it again.  I'm at my boiling point already and this thing just started.  They don't listen and do what they want.  Eventually Mom comes in the room, does the exact same thing I just did, and life is back to normal.  Then Mom turns and yells at me saying I should have done something to keep it from escalating.  Now I'm frustrated to the point I can't look at any of them lest I say/do something I shouldn't.  Probably not the best example, but it's the freshest in my mind.

@wikkidpissah and @rabidfireweasel - you both make some good points, and I think some of it holds true.  Whatever it is I'm doing now, isn't working.  So I need to adjust/adapt first.  I can't make them start listening now.  I try to be a good role model where I can - holding doors for others, treating women with respect, taking pride in things we own/do (cleaning the house, fixing things, working hard).  I read with them at night - either reading to them, or having them read to me.  I make sure I'm the one to tuck them in at night, and the first one they meet in the morning.  But somewhere in between these things, something's off.  I don't know if it's my approach or what.  That's what I need to figure out.

Coordinating with Mom is easier said than done.  We're not divorced, but at times it feels that way.  We usually talk at night, but mainly about the kids.  She feels like she's the only parent in the house.  I feel like I'm just the butler, chauffeur, cook, and cat-rustler.  We both have a part to play, and we both try to agree on ground rules.  But how to enforce them is something different.  She says that the kids don't listen to me because I'm not acting the way I am - I'm trying to be something I'm not.  I yell too much and I stopped having fun with them.  Meanwhile, she is yelling at them.  I feel like the two of us are oil and water, and that the kids are feeding off of that tension.  

 
Have you talked them about this?  Maybe they care more if they thought about it that way.
We have.  I have specifically talked about the importance of family, respecting and appreciating your family, that you will always be brothers.  They do the sort of nod and have the "whatever, can we be done talking" look so I know it is not sinking in.  I don't know the magic words to get them to understand.

The weird thing is that my brother and I were much closer as kids.  Sure, we fought, but not really to hurt.  We played for hours and hours and hours together, but then as adults we grew apart.  They are starting apart, which scares me for their future relationship.

 
slowkidz said:
She says that the kids don't listen to me because I'm not acting the way I am - I'm trying to be something I'm not.  I yell too much and I stopped having fun with them. 
Lemme aks you something - is there something you do for your boys on a regular basis, that they expect you to do for them when they actually shouldn't expect it, they should be grateful you do it?

 
Lots of great advice in here. 

My brother was 14 months younger than me.  We played and fought together every day.  I am not exaggerating.  We drove our parents crazy.  We beat on each other.  Threw stuff at each other.  Really tried to inflict pain.  My parents would break us up and separate us by sending one of us outside.  It did not matter if it was the middle of winter. 

My brother and I shared many friends and enemies due to our close age.  The enemies stood no chance.  There is nothing like having a brother to back you up even if the brother "hates" you at the time.  As your sons grow up and make enemies, they will put their differences aside and protect one another. 

As soon as I moved away to college we stopped fighting and have been best friends ever since. 

My point to this is that brothers can have strange relationships but they should be fine as they grow up.  And, as they stand up for each other, they will form an incredible bond.  Try to quit yelling at them so much.  Speak firmly and separate them as soon as they begin to fight.  Separate the 2 so that they cannot see or hear each other.  Talk little and act quickly.  Take video games, TV, Ipads away.  Send a strong message and do not back down.  Make sure that you and your wife are 100% united and consistent with the discipline.  

Good luck.  You will be fine.  Please keep us updated.  We can all learn from these challenges. 

 
Parenting tweens ain't easy, but it's simple. If it's complicated, you're either doing it wrong or haven't coordinated with their mother. You two don't have to agree, but you do have to know where each of you stand on things. Children are like prison inmates, they have time and energy to conspire against their guardians that the caretakers usually don't have time and energy to prevent. If you're not squared up, they'll work you and her like pimps dey hos. Which leads me to....

1) Are you proud of how you provide for your family? If you ain't, GET proud. If you ain't giving basic stuff, time (including either helping mom if she works too or having a defined role in how the household is kept up) and interest to your household, shore that up. Once you have, or already are there, or even if you can't, shore up your mind that you are absolutely proud of who you are, what you do and how you act. Kids need to see that and showing that to em will save you a lot of work, mostly because shaming is wheelhouse stuff for a tween.

2) Require performance from your children. Do not praise them before you challenge them, then praise them as much as you can. If not brilliance, focus; if not focus, effort. And always require that they care and show respect, even when they don't respect. Press your underachiever. Then press him again. If he breaks down or goes dramatically sullen, then he's dealing with a real prob, so help him all you can. Otherwise, he's working you, the system, his own laziness or all three.

3) Draw as many or as few lines as you want, but do not move them once you do.

4) Do not bribe your children. Corruption breeds nothing but more corruption, on both sides. 

5) Finally, you have more stuff that they want/need than they have which you want/need. They know that better than you do. Base their freedoms and your efforts on their behalf (rides, dues, weekends, extras, etc) on how they comply with expectations, how selfish they are and how well and honestly they account for themselves. If they are trying, spoil them as much as you can. If they aren't, shrug and tell em you don't have to do extra if they do nothin'. nufced

6) Superfinally, once again - coordinate this with mom.

Be your best you, not their best you. They still want to follow you more than anyone else in the world. Make sure they can. GL -
this is $$$

and you must be consistent in your discipline.  kids are wicked smart and will work the system anywhere they see an angle.

 
Update:

It's been awhile, and some things have changed.  I've become a little more relaxed with the boys, trying to let them be boys and have fun.  They still push me a to a boiling point, but I try not to be quick to the trigger and yell at them.  Only a few things they do gets on my nerves, and even then I try to walk away.

My oldest is now on ADHD medicine.  His scores came back showing an ultra-aggressive attitude which clouded his judgement and thought process.  Since then, I've noticed a major change in his attitude toward school, working around the house, and playing with his brother.  All positive signs.

My youngest is still the same.  He's growing more defiant, constantly challenging me on everything.  It's like he only knows the word "No".  This frustrates me the most.  If I tell him to do something, he tries to argue.  I don't pursue it, but will lay down consequences if he doesn't.  He remains defiant.  I enforce the consequences and he starts crying and yelling how he'll "listen now", or will constantly cry how he is a "bad boy" and is having a "horrible" day.  I don't know where any of this came from, but it's like his rallying cry now.  I get more frustrated every day when he does this...which is also becoming an every day occurrence.  Yet, if my wife tells him to do the same thing, he jumps up to do it.  No question asked.  No back talk.  She just looks at me and tells me I need to figure it out.   :rant:

Wife and I aren't on the greatest terms.  We rarely talk anymore, unless it's me listening to her day or her problems.  I speak up and she won't get her nose out of her phone.  Kids will talk to her about things they're going through and my wife will tell her entire family, but not mention it to me.  The 12yr old likes a girl at school and told his mom that he wants to ask her out on a date.  Serious conversation for him, and yet I only find out about it b/c my brother in law was joking about it in a text message he sent me.  I don't know when this happened, or if/when she was going to bring it up.  The son and I have had a talk about "his changes" and what to expect, with me telling him how I was never able to talk to my dad about these things and that I would always be there to listen or help whenever he needed me.  It just bugs me.  

Sorry, off point I'm sure.  Just having a really bad day today as a dad.  Frustrating morning followed by a very depressing side conversation on all of this, and needed to vent.  Thought of this thread and came back to it.

 
Lemme aks you something - is there something you do for your boys on a regular basis, that they expect you to do for them when they actually shouldn't expect it, they should be grateful you do it?
Thought I answered this one, but realized I didn't.

I don't look for them to be grateful, meaning, I'm not doing anything to seek out their "Thank You" or anything.  I make meals, take them to their practices, help with their homework, play games with them, etc.  There isn't anything I do on a a regular basis which they would "expect" me to do it automatically.  They are self-sufficient when they need to be.  Is that what you mean?

 
On your recent update....my son tries to turn punishments into reasons to see himself as a victim, like we're calling him a "bad kid" or something of that kind too. What we had to do was change our language when discussing a problem with him to specifically calling it an incorrect decision and talk to him about what led him down the path of making that decision. He's come around to understand that when I punish him, I still love him and he's still a great kid but sometimes he makes bad choices and his punishment is for the decision, not that he's inherently bad.

 
On your recent update....my son tries to turn punishments into reasons to see himself as a victim, like we're calling him a "bad kid" or something of that kind too. What we had to do was change our language when discussing a problem with him to specifically calling it an incorrect decision and talk to him about what led him down the path of making that decision. He's come around to understand that when I punish him, I still love him and he's still a great kid but sometimes he makes bad choices and his punishment is for the decision, not that he's inherently bad.
We use this a lot as well.  My wife and I try to focus on the "poor choice" that was made, and not the behavior.  Kids will tend to side with the easier link of I did something bad so i must be bad.  We do a lot of Right vs Wrong scenarios (Goofus & Gallant, for those who remember Highlights) when talking about choices with them.

 
There is a pretty decent parenting podcast out there by Dr. David Carey and Donate Moncreiff.  They cover a variety of child psychology topics for all ages.  Very informative.

 

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