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College Admissions Questions (6 Viewers)

Is there any correlation to when kids apply to when schools communicate their decisions? There are schools we have been waiting on for weeks if not months at this point while other people have posted they applied way later and already heard back. When we check the school portals they say all information has been received and application is under review. We asked a couple of the schools and they said we should know by Day X. That day has come and gone and then they extend the notification date to Day Y. I assume this is standard fare?

Similarly, some of the schools did say he was accepted but we won’t get a full financial aid breakdown for a couple months. Again, is that the norm?

 
Anarchy99 said:
Is there any correlation to when kids apply to when schools communicate their decisions? There are schools we have been waiting on for weeks if not months at this point while other people have posted they applied way later and already heard back. When we check the school portals they say all information has been received and application is under review. We asked a couple of the schools and they said we should know by Day X. That day has come and gone and then they extend the notification date to Day Y. I assume this is standard fare?mA

Similarly, some of the schools did say he was accepted but we won’t get a full financial aid breakdown for a couple months. Again, is that the norm?
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Typically only rolling admission schools correlate to application date.

Most other schools have an application deadline and a date where everyone finds out at the same time.

Every school is different with financial aid.  Some give the entire package upon acceptance, some give it a little later.  you should get the information well before you have to make a decision in the spring.

 
NewlyRetired said:
Typically only rolling admission schools correlate to application date.

Most other schools have an application deadline and a date where everyone finds out at the same time.

Every school is different with financial aid.  Some give the entire package upon acceptance, some give it a little later.  you should get the information well before you have to make a decision in the spring.
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Thanks for the reply. The follow up I had was for schools that made a determination way earlier and offered a great aid package, what is the protocol? Do we have to let them know ASAP? Or can we wait until spring and then notify them? Can they yank what they offered? A couple of places notified us in December but there are still a ton of schools that are "in process." Will those schools that decided early wait 4 months to hear back from us?

 
Anarchy99 said:
Thanks for the reply. The follow up I had was for schools that made a determination way earlier and offered a great aid package, what is the protocol? Do we have to let them know ASAP? Or can we wait until spring and then notify them? Can they yank what they offered? A couple of places notified us in December but there are still a ton of schools that are "in process." Will those schools that decided early wait 4 months to hear back from us?
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The paper work they sent you should list the deadline date you have to answer by.  The date varies by school.   Most, if not every school, that awards an acceptance, will wait until the deadline for the student to decide.   You can't really lose your spot in line.

I have never heard of a school pulling an acceptance or a financial aid package outside extreme rare circumstances where a kid was caught cheating or lying on his application, things like that.

 
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Interesting from admissions expert @jselingo on Twitter

Half of colleges experienced a decline in applications submitted through the Common Application for regular decision compared to last year.

Apps to private colleges are down across the board, except for small and mid-sized schools in the south. Apps to big publics (>20k+) everywhere were up. Seems like demographics and affordability, or at least the perception of it, playing a role in apps.
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Doesn't surprise me at all. Private colleges (other than the elites) are not doing a good job at all making the case for their value proposition over publics that are half the price

 
NewlyRetired said:
The paper work they sent you should list the deadline date you have to answer by.  The date varies by school.   Most, if not every school, that awards an acceptance, will wait until the deadline.   You can't really lose your spot in line.

I have never heard of a school pulling an acceptance or a financial aid package outside extreme rare circumstances where a kid was caught cheating or lying on his application, things like that.
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Someone I know who is a VP of Enrollment & Admissions told me no matter what schools offer as their best offer to ALWAYS ask for more. He said tell them their school is neck and neck with another one and if they pitch in a little more that might tip the scales. We did that for one of our other kids and they gave her another $5K x 4 years = $20K. He said many schools are having a harder time than ever getting kids to commit and enroll because 1) there are fewer kids population wise, 2) not as many kids are going to school as in the past, 3) the cost is getting astronomically high, and 4) the perception of the value of a college education is not what it used to be. He basically said there is no harm in sending out a brief email asking for more $$$ . . . the worst they could say is no. I am not sure all schools will just up their offers, but it seems like it would be worth a shot.

The only thing I don't love from the places our son has been accepted to so far is they keep asking for deposit monies for various things (mostly housing) and claim we could get horrible living arrangements or may not get consideration for other things / programs if we don't act soon. That sounds like propaganda to me, but I haven't looked at their correspondence closely enough to tell if it is really scare mongering.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Someone I know who is a VP of Enrollment & Admissions told me no matter what schools offer as their best offer to ALWAYS ask for more.  harm in sending out a brief email asking for more $$$ . . . the worst they could say is no. I am not sure all schools will just up their offers, but it seems like it would be worth a shot.

The only thing I don't love from the places our son has been accepted to so far is they keep asking for deposit monies for various things (mostly housing) and claim we could get horrible living arrangements or may not get consideration for other things / programs if we don't act soon. That sounds like propaganda to me, but I haven't looked at their correspondence closely enough to tell if it is really scare mongering.
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Yes, for FA it is always worth it to ask.  You are not going to get the world, but many schools build in small budgets for the parents that negotiate.

I am very unfamiliar with the tactic mentioned in your last paragraph.  I don't think I have ever heard of a school threatening things like that.   Unless you are making it sound much worse, I would be wary of any business that employs that type of practice, especially if these schools have a stated deadline for whether the student accepts the decision.

 
The_Man said:
Interesting from admissions expert @jselingo on Twitter

Doesn't surprise me at all. Private colleges (other than the elites) are not doing a good job at all making the case for their value proposition over publics that are half the price
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I think it may be backfiring on the many second and third tier private schools who are jacking their costs through the roof, only to then be able to show they give a ton of FA.   I think most parents are going into the process assuming the worst about FA and simply tell their kids they can't afford it, even if they likely could have if they went through the whole process.

I would not be shocked that if this trend continues, that some private schools will have to take a different tactic and lower their up front costs and subsequently also lower their FA packages (total cost to school remains the same but it might attract more applicants who were scare off by the $70k level prices.)

 
NewlyRetired said:
Yes, for FA it is always worth it to ask.  You are not going to get the world, but many schools build in small budgets for the parents that negotiate.

I am very unfamiliar with the tactic mentioned in your last paragraph.  I don't think I have ever heard of a school threatening things like that.   Unless you are making it sound much worse, I would be wary of any business that employs that type of practice, especially if these schools have a stated deadline for whether the student accepts the decision.
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I wasn't trying to make things sound draconian, but some schools have mentioned that housing in "upgraded / modernized" dorms goes quickly. Or there is a group for mentoring or onboarding out of state kids, but they only can take so many kids. Or schools that allow freshman to have vehicles, there are only a few limited number of parking passes available. Or if your kid wanted to play in their highly popular intramural league at the PREMIUM sports complex, you need to get on a team NOW. Silly stuff like that. And of course, if you DON'T ACT NOW, you won't get that in 3 months. But nothing like you lose your FA package if you don't decide quickly.

 
NewlyRetired said:
I think it may be backfiring on the many second and third tier private schools who are jacking their costs through the roof, only to then be able to show they give a ton of FA.   I think most parents are going into the process assuming the worst about FA and simply tell their kids they can't afford it, even if they likely could have if they went through the whole process.

I would not be shocked that if this trend continues, that some private schools will have to take a different tactic and lower their up front costs and subsequently also lower their FA packages (total cost to school remains the same but it might attract more applicants who were scare off by the $70k level prices.)
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My enrollment / admissions contact has indicated to me that parents should be able to negotiate the cost of a private school to roughly half the stated cost / sticker price. I assume he means second or third tier schools, but he didn't elaborate.

 
Anarchy99 said:
My enrollment / admissions contact has indicated to me that parents should be able to negotiate the cost of a private school to roughly half the stated cost / sticker price. I assume he means second or third tier schools, but he didn't elaborate.
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yes, you can't do it with the Ivey's/MIT level or even the best 2nd tier school but with many others, it is akin to buying a car.  There is a sticker price and then there is the real price you pay.

The problem is that many parents just assume no FA and the sticker is what they are going to pay and don't even bother letting a child apply because they don't want him to get in and then say no.

 
zoobird said:
When you guys mention your kids' GPAs, is that weighted or unweighted?
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I calculated my kid’s unweighted GPA following junior year and it was a pain (and I’m not even sure I did it correctly).  I haven’t updated after first semester of Senior year. At the end of the day, I think it’s really difficult to use GPA (weighted or unweighted) as any sort of predictive barometer because every university calculates it differently, you have to take course rigor into account, and many universities have a profile for schools that have a history of sending students there. Personally, I think the most useful tool for analyzing GPA (and it’s only kind of useful) is if your school subscribes to Naviance or some similar system. If the school is committed to utilizing Naviance, the software interface allows you to see a scattergram for pretty much every college that shows the GPA (and test scores) of all  applicants from your child’s school going back several years, and which of those were admitted or denied. This at least provides some data with respect to similarly situated applicants in terms of same grading system and same school profile. 

 
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zoobird said:
So out of 4.0 maximum?  Impressive.
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Absolutely impressive!  Frankly, on the few occasions I’ve perused the boards on college confidential (some good info but can also suck you in and cause stress) I’m amazed at how many kids are posting 4.0 unweighted GPAs. Unless I’m calculating it incorrectly, that is straight As without a single A- in any class during three years of high school. That is an incredible feat particularly if you are taking a rigorous course load. My kid isn’t even close to that. 

 
NewlyRetired said:
Love it!

I have three nephews(undergrad) and a niece(grad) there and all are having an excellent experience.

Companies are killing themselves to get these Northeastern kids.  My relatives all have incredible co op jobs and the two oldest undergrads have already been told by their companies that they are getting offers for full time.

This is one of the few schools where the huge tuition almost seems worth it because the kids make serious money on co op and are virtually guaranteed jobs when they graduate because their resumes are so strong.
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That message has definitely been heard loud and clear. That is why my son was so committed to apply (it was one of the first schools he added to his “definitely apply” list).  Thanks for sharing your family members’ experience. It’s always good to hear a positive report from someone who is already there. And if I remember correctly, most of all are there for engineering, correct?

 
bigbottom said:
That message has definitely been heard loud and clear. That is why my son was so committed to apply (it was one of the first schools he added to his “definitely apply” list).  Thanks for sharing your family members’ experience. It’s always good to hear a positive report from someone who is already there. And if I remember correctly, most of all are there for engineering, correct?
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3 of the 4 are in engineering/cs.  The grad student is in medicine (she went to Trinity for undergrad and then followed her three brothers to Northeastern after she graduated).

 
bigbottom said:
At the end of the day, I think it’s really difficult to use GPA (weighted or unweighted) as any sort of predictive barometer because every university calculates it differently, you have to take course rigor into account, and many universities have a profile for schools that have a history of sending students there. 
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Comparing GPA for kids from one school to the next is like folks riding different bikes comparing Peloton outputs.

Great to see your boy with so many options.  :thumbup:

 
bigbottom said:
Absolutely impressive!  Frankly, on the few occasions I’ve perused the boards on college confidential (some good info but can also suck you in and cause stress) I’m amazed at how many kids are posting 4.0 unweighted GPAs. Unless I’m calculating it incorrectly, that is straight As without a single A- in any class during three years of high school. That is an incredible feat particularly if you are taking a rigorous course load. My kid isn’t even close to that. 
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Many schools do not use a +/- system.  An "A" is an "A" no matter where if falls in the range and is worth 4.0 on the GPA scale.  So an 89% and 90% are different (3.0 compared to 4.0), but a 90% and a 99% are the same.  Grades are so arbitrary...a totally outdated system that we can't seem to get away from.

 
Galileo said:
Many schools do not use a +/- system.  An "A" is an "A" no matter where if falls in the range and is worth 4.0 on the GPA scale.  So an 89% and 90% are different (3.0 compared to 4.0), but a 90% and a 99% are the same.  Grades are so arbitrary...a totally outdated system that we can't seem to get away from.
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If not GPA or standardized tests (though maybe you prefer these) how would you suggest measuring academic proficiency?  I have no strong opinion, just curious on your thoughts.

 
Nigel said:
If not GPA or standardized tests (though maybe you prefer these) how would you suggest measuring academic proficiency?  I have no strong opinion, just curious on your thoughts.
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Grades aren't so much about measuring academic proficiency.  They are more about trying to compare students to each other.  Colleges, especially, have a reason to want to do this.  Thus, the system persists.  But the reality is the grades mean nothing.  I can make student grades fall wherever I want as a teacher.  It is ridiculously arbitrary.  Make harder tests...make easier tests...curve test results...re-take the test...etc.  So many ways to manipulate them.  Students learn to play the games and how to work the system.  Many of their decisions are driven by a desire to earn points rather than a desire to learn.  Unfortunately, when you try to remove the points/grades, so many lose all motivation.  I don't necessarily have the answers, but it is a huge dilemma for education.  In theory, a standardized test sounds good...measure students against objective standards.  They either have the skills or they are still developing them.  But learning is an incredibly complex process that looks different for all learners.  It is essentially impossible to design a one size fits all measurement tool that captures a true picture of each individual.  

 
The issue I have with grades is when different teachers have way different grades. Two years ago at our HS, they picked a small group of kids based on class rank for a pilot class with an integrated Honors English and Honors Social Studies curriculum. Since the class was double blocked time and two semesters it counted 4 times that of a single block, one semester course. 

They brought in a new teacher to teach the class who was the world’s toughest grader. The highest grade in the class was an A- and our son was second with a B+. Everyone else got B’s or C’s. But the course counted 4 times a regular class with regard to GPA’s and weighted GPA’s.

They offered the class again the next year,  but with a different teacher, who felt that kids should not be penalized for taking such a hard class and handed out A+’s to the entire class. 

That COMPLETELY flip flopped the class rank for the top of this year’s senior class. The difference in an A+ and a B+ in that class is uber magnified. And most of the other kids in the original class got pummeled even worse. That one difference caused our son to fall from Top 5 in class rank to like 16th. We found some scholarship programs that have being in the Top 10 in class rank as a requirement. The administration, of course, said there was nothing they could do.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Is there any correlation to when kids apply to when schools communicate their decisions? There are schools we have been waiting on for weeks if not months at this point while other people have posted they applied way later and already heard back. When we check the school portals they say all information has been received and application is under review. We asked a couple of the schools and they said we should know by Day X. That day has come and gone and then they extend the notification date to Day Y. I assume this is standard fare?

Similarly, some of the schools did say he was accepted but we won’t get a full financial aid breakdown for a couple months. Again, is that the norm?
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That doesn’t sound like standard fare to me at all. Every school we’ve applied to has stated that if you apply by X date, you will get a decision by Y date (either a specific date, or a range like, say, “late March”). And for those schools to which my son has applied that we have gotten to the Y date, 7 out of 7 have provided responses by the stated Y date. I would think that schools failing to meet their stated deadline for making admissions decisions would be the extreme minority as it’s really unprofessional and very unfair to the kids. 

 
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Anarchy99 said:
The issue I have with grades is when different teachers have way different grades. Two years ago at our HS, they picked a small group of kids based on class rank for a pilot class with an integrated Honors English and Honors Social Studies curriculum. Since the class was double blocked time and two semesters it counted 4 times that of a single block, one semester course. 

They brought in a new teacher to teach the class who was the world’s toughest grader. The highest grade in the class was an A- and our son was second with a B+. Everyone else got B’s or C’s. But the course counted 4 times a regular class with regard to GPA’s and weighted GPA’s.

They offered the class again the next year,  but with a different teacher, who felt that kids should not be penalized for taking such a hard class and handed out A+’s to the entire class. 

That COMPLETELY flip flopped the class rank for the top of this year’s senior class. The difference in an A+ and a B+ in that class is uber magnified. And most of the other kids in the original class got pummeled even worse. That one difference caused our son to fall from Top 5 in class rank to like 16th. We found some scholarship programs that have being in the Top 10 in class rank as a requirement. The administration, of course, said there was nothing they could do.
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The NHS debacle, being benched for missing practice, and getting screwed by the hard teacher in the double credit class. Sounds like your son is snakebit at that school. I bet he’s looking forward to new surrounding this coming Fall. I know he already has acceptances to some great options - wishing him the best of luck on the rest of his apps!

 
Anarchy99 said:
The issue I have with grades is when different teachers have way different grades. Two years ago at our HS, they picked a small group of kids based on class rank for a pilot class with an integrated Honors English and Honors Social Studies curriculum. Since the class was double blocked time and two semesters it counted 4 times that of a single block, one semester course. 

They brought in a new teacher to teach the class who was the world’s toughest grader. The highest grade in the class was an A- and our son was second with a B+. Everyone else got B’s or C’s. But the course counted 4 times a regular class with regard to GPA’s and weighted GPA’s.

They offered the class again the next year,  but with a different teacher, who felt that kids should not be penalized for taking such a hard class and handed out A+’s to the entire class. 

That COMPLETELY flip flopped the class rank for the top of this year’s senior class. The difference in an A+ and a B+ in that class is uber magnified. And most of the other kids in the original class got pummeled even worse. That one difference caused our son to fall from Top 5 in class rank to like 16th. We found some scholarship programs that have being in the Top 10 in class rank as a requirement. The administration, of course, said there was nothing they could do.
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More evidence of the arbitrary nature of grades and they reason they are essentially meaningless...and this is within the SAME school.  We need to find a way to focus on the LEARNING.  Attitudes and philosophies of students, parents, and teachers need to be re-shaped starting at the early ages.  And class rank is just as silly.  Thankfully, we eliminated it several years ago from our high school.  

 
Galileo said:
More evidence of the arbitrary nature of grades and they reason they are essentially meaningless...and this is within the SAME school.  We need to find a way to focus on the LEARNING.  Attitudes and philosophies of students, parents, and teachers need to be re-shaped starting at the early ages.  And class rank is just as silly.  Thankfully, we eliminated it several years ago from our high school.  
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Seems like the entire high school grading and college admissions evaluation process is completely broken.

One kid could go to a normal high school, get lucky with somewhat easier than average teachers, achieve an 89.5 average in every class, at a school that doesn't use + and - grades, and with rounding...all the colleges see is "4.0 average".  Another kid could go to a highly selective school that accepts 10% or less of applicants, get tougher teachers and be compared to much higher achieving classmates, still get 91.4 in every class and the colleges will see "3.7 average".  Swap those two kids' situations, and there could be a 10 point difference in their raw averages in favor of the "3.7".

 
ex-ghost said:
This is the first I have heard about HS not having + or - . That is messed up. 
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I still haven't figured out why they need letter grades at all. If a kid earned a 93.4 for the semester, record his score as a 93.4. I understand some classes are totally subjective (ie, not simply grading tests but assigning a letter grade to papers and projects), but just use numerical grades instead of letters. Our son has classes where he averages 101 or 102 (either doing extra assignments or getting an extra credit problem on a test right). But giving a kid over 100 would probably cause a meltdown for the analytics programs.

 
ex-ghost said:
This is the first I have heard about HS not having + or - . That is messed up. 
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If you read the scenario by zoobird right above your post, that is exactly why the administration in our school does not want +/-.  They know it will lower GPAs.  I went to a high school with a +/- system AND our cutoff scores were higher (93 for the A- instead of 90, below 70% was an F).  Our school counselors are now pushing for weighted honors classes (we currently only weight AP classes).  They argue that our students are at a disadvantage for college admissions and scholarships, and there is data to support this.  Obviously, weighted honors classes would bump GPAs higher.   I suggested we should just move to a 6.0 scale and tip the advantage in favor of our students.  Get ahead of the curve.  None of these grade systems is truly measuring learning.  They are just manipulations striving to create appearances/advantages.

 
bigbottom said:
The NHS debacle, being benched for missing practice, and getting screwed by the hard teacher in the double credit class. Sounds like your son is snakebit at that school. I bet he’s looking forward to new surrounding this coming Fall. I know he already has acceptances to some great options - wishing him the best of luck on the rest of his apps!
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The basketball situation has taken another turn for the befuddling. When he got benched for missing practice, there was an article saying it was our son's team now, he is the best player that no one has ever heard of, and at his best he is the most electric player in the state on both sides of the ball. The reporter said if he is engaged each game and they use him properly, they are legit state championship contenders. The reporter went on to say if they got his "A" game for 32 minutes, there isn't a team around that could beat them (and there are undefeated teams laying wood to opponents). I was shocked because he never gets any media attention. His comments were probably inflated by the reporter seeing his best games, but it was nice he finally got some notice.

They ended up beating a good team the game he had to sit. We thought everything would go back to normal after that. The team overall with him playing is absolutely relentless defensively . . . they only allow about 40 ppg (and they've played teams that score 60-70 points and sometimes 80-90). They have the other 4 kids play man-to-man and he essentially is a one man zone covering the paint (and occasionally the 5th guy from the other team). He's almost 6'6" with insanely long arms. Bottom line, when he is on the court, teams can only shoot from the outside. No points in the paint, no points in transition. He is always there as a help defender, so the other kids can take a lot of chances knowing there is a giraffe behind them (who runs like a gazelle). It completely changes how teams play.

Anyway, AFTER the game he sat out, they SAT HIM to start their next game against a middle of the road team. Without him, they allowed 18 points in the first quarter, and many games they don't allow that in a half. He started the second quarter, and they outscored the other team 18-0 in the quarter. He had 8 points and 4 assists in the quarter, and the only reason he didn't get another assist was the kid got fouled on a layup and made the free throws instead. The game turned into a blowout, and he ended up with 15 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals, and 2 blocks in about 20 minutes of playing time. They went from down 5 after a quarter to up 20+ in 10 minutes of game time.

So all's well that ends well, right? Of course not. The coach told our son he isn't playing well enough to start and another kid is taking his starting spot. The kid replacing him is a JAG. I get this is a motivational ploy to get him to go 100% all the time, but it seems pretty silly to me. They play a weaker team next, so I am guessing this will last for one more game before they go back to how things were. (They face a powerhouse after that.) There may be a component of keeping him fresher for later in games, but that seems like an odd way to go about getting him some in-game rest. But yeah, we aren't huge fans of the school these days.

In the interest of academics, just found out he got a 100 on his AP Calc mid-term. He ended up only getting one problem wrong the entire first semester. More power to him, calculus is not my bag. Not all precincts have reported yet for first semester grades, but four A+'s in his college level courses and an A in Honors Physics so far. God bless him given all the other stuff going on.

 
Anarchy99 said:
I still haven't figured out why they need letter grades at all. If a kid earned a 93.4 for the semester, record his score as a 93.4. I understand some classes are totally subjective (ie, not simply grading tests but assigning a letter grade to papers and projects), but just use numerical grades instead of letters. Our son has classes where he averages 101 or 102 (either doing extra assignments or getting an extra credit problem on a test right). But giving a kid over 100 would probably cause a meltdown for the analytics programs.
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This is what my school did. And your numerical grade got multiplied by 1.1 or something if you were in an AP course.

 
zoobird said:
Seems like the entire high school grading and college admissions evaluation process is completely broken.

One kid could go to a normal high school, get lucky with somewhat easier than average teachers, achieve an 89.5 average in every class, at a school that doesn't use + and - grades, and with rounding...all the colleges see is "4.0 average".  Another kid could go to a highly selective school that accepts 10% or less of applicants, get tougher teachers and be compared to much higher achieving classmates, still get 91.4 in every class and the colleges will see "3.7 average".  Swap those two kids' situations, and there could be a 10 point difference in their raw averages in favor of the "3.7".
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This assumes that the admissions departments are not sophisticated and don’t have detailed profiles on most high schools (or at least the high schools that regularly send students to the school) such that they are aware of and can draw the distinctions you note above. My perception is that most schools with competitive admissions are more sophisticated than that.

 
bigbottom said:
This assumes that the admissions departments are not sophisticated and don’t have detailed profiles on most high schools (or at least the high schools that regularly send students to the school) such that they are aware of and can draw the distinctions you note above. My perception is that most schools with competitive admissions are more sophisticated than that.
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I am holding my breath to see how this plays out with Kid #2. Kid #1 went to a private school that's known for being the lax bro school. We sent him there because of the scholarship he was offered. He amassed a superstar profile and got into Brown, but not even waitlisted at HYP. One other kid got into Cornell (big-time legacy) and no one else got into an Ivy. Kid #2 goes to a private school that's known for progressive education and a lot of really smart, interesting kids. They don't offer AP courses and grading is de-emphasized. And yet kids get into a lot of the most highly selective schools. It's clear to me that among college admissions offices, there's a ranking of area feeder schools. I'm still a little bitter that Kid #1 didn't get what I felt was a fair shake from Yale when I see some of the kids that got in from more highly esteemed area schools (and I should probably get over it, to be honest. He has a 4.0 through 5 semesters, has a couple of great faculty mentors, and loves it there).

So now I'm left hoping the school halo effect pays off for Kid #2. He's done pretty well for 2.5 years now, but nowhere near what his brother did. And because the school de-emphasizes grades to the point of not having Honor Roll or anything like that, I have absolutely no idea where he stacks up in his class. Top 10%? Top 25? Which makes it very unsettling as we get into the search process. We will get access to Naviance later in the spring and that will begin to provide some answers. 

 
bigbottom said:
This assumes that the admissions departments are not sophisticated and don’t have detailed profiles on most high schools (or at least the high schools that regularly send students to the school) such that they are aware of and can draw the distinctions you note above. My perception is that most schools with competitive admissions are more sophisticated than that.
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I talked to a number of people in the admissions 'industry' about this in researching some business ideas around the idea of "moneyball for evaluating students".  I didn't have a single conversation that gave me the impression that any really sophisticated analysis is going on.  That's likely because they're not really trying to optimize for "awesomest student".  Instead they're optimizing for "kinda awesome student who will definitely come here if we accept them".  Every reference I found or heard to really sophisticated analysis was around gauging interest...not ability.  That said, I do get the impression that some schools probably have some data on which feeder schools have sent good students in the past...so they CAN do some analysis of what the GPAs from each high school might mean...but whether they do or not (and how accurate the analysis is) is probably very hit or miss. 

 
The_Man said:
I am holding my breath to see how this plays out with Kid #2. Kid #1 went to a private school that's known for being the lax bro school. We sent him there because of the scholarship he was offered. He amassed a superstar profile and got into Brown, but not even waitlisted at HYP. One other kid got into Cornell (big-time legacy) and no one else got into an Ivy. Kid #2 goes to a private school that's known for progressive education and a lot of really smart, interesting kids. They don't offer AP courses and grading is de-emphasized. And yet kids get into a lot of the most highly selective schools. It's clear to me that among college admissions offices, there's a ranking of area feeder schools. I'm still a little bitter that Kid #1 didn't get what I felt was a fair shake from Yale when I see some of the kids that got in from more highly esteemed area schools (and I should probably get over it, to be honest. He has a 4.0 through 5 semesters, has a couple of great faculty mentors, and loves it there).

So now I'm left hoping the school halo effect pays off for Kid #2. He's done pretty well for 2.5 years now, but nowhere near what his brother did. And because the school de-emphasizes grades to the point of not having Honor Roll or anything like that, I have absolutely no idea where he stacks up in his class. Top 10%? Top 25? Which makes it very unsettling as we get into the search process. We will get access to Naviance later in the spring and that will begin to provide some answers. 
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Not sure if Son #1's school utilized Naviance, but if Son #2's school is actually good about inputting information into Naviance (or requiring their students to do so), it will be a fascinating experience if you are a data junkie.

Is Son #1 going to Brown?

 
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zoobird said:
I talked to a number of people in the admissions 'industry' about this in researching some business ideas around the idea of "moneyball for evaluating students".  I didn't have a single conversation that gave me the impression that any really sophisticated analysis is going on.  That's likely because they're not really trying to optimize for "awesomest student".  Instead they're optimizing for "kinda awesome student who will definitely come here if we accept them".  Every reference I found or heard to really sophisticated analysis was around gauging interest...not ability.  That said, I do get the impression that some schools probably have some data on which feeder schools have sent good students in the past...so they CAN do some analysis of what the GPAs from each high school might mean...but whether they do or not (and how accurate the analysis is) is probably very hit or miss. 
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It may very well be more limited to familiar schools that are recognized as feeders.

 
bigbottom said:
Not sure if Son #1's school utilized Naviance, but if Son #2's school is actually good about inputting information into Naviance (or requiring their students to do so), it will be a fascinating experience if you are a data junkie.

Is Son #1 going to Brown?
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#1 had Naviance. #2's school just switched to SCOIR. I hear it's similar - haven't gotten parental access yet. Will be very interesting to compare. 

Yes, #1 is at Brown and really likes it. Though he is often amazed at the instances of extreme wealth among students (according to the NY Times, 20% of the students come from the top 1% which is $630,000+ annual income) and sometimes a little bummed that there isn't more of an intense intellectual culture. He loves the Open Curriculum, which means no requirements outside your major. This week is "Shopping Week" where you visit classes for their first meeting or 2 and decide if you want to enroll. He probably goes to 7 or 8 classes to settle on 4, which is an indicator of how important it is to him to make the most of his schedule.

He speaks Arabic and Chinese and is going to be a Comparative Literature major (that's a fancy way of saying International Literature) in the Translation track, and he's probably going to do a double major in East Asian studies. I told him to consider that because I thought it would make him more employable - but now I'm feeling guilty because he's looking at stacking his schedule with a lot of East Asian studies courses to complete the requirements, which undermines the whole Open Curriculum that he loves so much. 

 
The_Man said:
#1 had Naviance. #2's school just switched to SCOIR. I hear it's similar - haven't gotten parental access yet. Will be very interesting to compare. 

Yes, #1 is at Brown and really likes it. Though he is often amazed at the instances of extreme wealth among students (according to the NY Times, 20% of the students come from the top 1% which is $630,000+ annual income) and sometimes a little bummed that there isn't more of an intense intellectual culture. He loves the Open Curriculum, which means no requirements outside your major. This week is "Shopping Week" where you visit classes for their first meeting or 2 and decide if you want to enroll. He probably goes to 7 or 8 classes to settle on 4, which is an indicator of how important it is to him to make the most of his schedule.

He speaks Arabic and Chinese and is going to be a Comparative Literature major (that's a fancy way of saying International Literature) in the Translation track, and he's probably going to do a double major in East Asian studies. I told him to consider that because I thought it would make him more employable - but now I'm feeling guilty because he's looking at stacking his schedule with a lot of East Asian studies courses to complete the requirements, which undermines the whole Open Curriculum that he loves so much. 
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Wow, what an awesome experience he seems to be having.  Brown!  That is amazing.

 
Anarchy99 said:
The basketball situation has taken another turn for the befuddling. When he got benched for missing practice, there was an article saying it was our son's team now, he is the best player that no one has ever heard of, and at his best he is the most electric player in the state on both sides of the ball. The reporter said if he is engaged each game and they use him properly, they are legit state championship contenders. The reporter went on to say if they got his "A" game for 32 minutes, there isn't a team around that could beat them (and there are undefeated teams laying wood to opponents). I was shocked because he never gets any media attention. His comments were probably inflated by the reporter seeing his best games, but it was nice he finally got some notice.

They ended up beating a good team the game he had to sit. We thought everything would go back to normal after that. The team overall with him playing is absolutely relentless defensively . . . they only allow about 40 ppg (and they've played teams that score 60-70 points and sometimes 80-90). They have the other 4 kids play man-to-man and he essentially is a one man zone covering the paint (and occasionally the 5th guy from the other team). He's almost 6'6" with insanely long arms. Bottom line, when he is on the court, teams can only shoot from the outside. No points in the paint, no points in transition. He is always there as a help defender, so the other kids can take a lot of chances knowing there is a giraffe behind them (who runs like a gazelle). It completely changes how teams play.

Anyway, AFTER the game he sat out, they SAT HIM to start their next game against a middle of the road team. Without him, they allowed 18 points in the first quarter, and many games they don't allow that in a half. He started the second quarter, and they outscored the other team 18-0 in the quarter. He had 8 points and 4 assists in the quarter, and the only reason he didn't get another assist was the kid got fouled on a layup and made the free throws instead. The game turned into a blowout, and he ended up with 15 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals, and 2 blocks in about 20 minutes of playing time. They went from down 5 after a quarter to up 20+ in 10 minutes of game time.

So all's well that ends well, right? Of course not. The coach told our son he isn't playing well enough to start and another kid is taking his starting spot. The kid replacing him is a JAG. I get this is a motivational ploy to get him to go 100% all the time, but it seems pretty silly to me. They play a weaker team next, so I am guessing this will last for one more game before they go back to how things were. (They face a powerhouse after that.) There may be a component of keeping him fresher for later in games, but that seems like an odd way to go about getting him some in-game rest. But yeah, we aren't huge fans of the school these days.

In the interest of academics, just found out he got a 100 on his AP Calc mid-term. He ended up only getting one problem wrong the entire first semester. More power to him, calculus is not my bag. Not all precincts have reported yet for first semester grades, but four A+'s in his college level courses and an A in Honors Physics so far. God bless him given all the other stuff going on.
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For the college that is jerking him around on decision deadlines, you may want to check what intel other parents have on the College Confidential board for that school.

 
Miss Sweet Love got some of her acceptances.  She has one that she wants to go to, and is in the 50 percentile scores-wise of kids who receive merit scholarship money.  The schools she applied to are moderately competitive, and she scored in highly competitive.  She applied ED 2 to her #1 school, in hopes of getting her end of semester grades in to boost her scores.  My question is, if she is applying ED, what motivation do they have to give her money.  She did receive $17,000 from a school that is almost on par with her #1, but that was early action.  To me, EA shows "I am pretty interested, come lure me", versus ED I am super duper interested, I am going to commit".  Maybe I am out of touch, but what motivation do they have to give her money?  We can always back out of ED for financial reasons (i.e. these guys gave us $17,000, you gave us nothing), but she really just wants that one school.  Have any of your kids received money while applying ED?

 
Sweet Love said:
Miss Sweet Love got some of her acceptances.  She has one that she wants to go to, and is in the 50 percentile scores-wise of kids who receive merit scholarship money.  The schools she applied to are moderately competitive, and she scored in highly competitive.  She applied ED 2 to her #1 school, in hopes of getting her end of semester grades in to boost her scores.  My question is, if she is applying ED, what motivation do they have to give her money.  She did receive $17,000 from a school that is almost on par with her #1, but that was early action.  To me, EA shows "I am pretty interested, come lure me", versus ED I am super duper interested, I am going to commit".  Maybe I am out of touch, but what motivation do they have to give her money?  We can always back out of ED for financial reasons (i.e. these guys gave us $17,000, you gave us nothing), but she really just wants that one school.  Have any of your kids received money while applying ED?
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Are you talking about merit or financial aid? If the former, I guess they wouldn’t have much of a motivation to give money unless they suspected that you would use it as a basis to pull out of your ED contract. For the latter, I’ve always heard that FA decisions are kept independent. But I don’t have any particular knowledge or insight on the point. (My son didn’t apply ED anywhere.)

 
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The_Man said:
He's sharp -- has excellent grades (with a slight stumble in math) from a well-respected school but am a little worried about test scores. So we're definitely looking at test-optional options and also gearing up for some ACT prep in late spring before testing in May or June. We did a practice test and he had excellent scores, except for a semi-disaster in math, which of course pulled the composite down.

He's currently thinking English and/or Environmental Studies, perhaps with an eye toward becoming a teacher. But who knows? He's pretty open to liberal arts schools, which my older son couldn't stand, so that opens up a lot more choices of excellent and not crazily selective schools. Looking forward to the trips - about a four-hour drive to Pittsburgh, so we're doing an overnight and getting together with one of my best friends from college, a lifelong Pittsburgh guy whom I haven't seen for probably 10 or more years. Penguins are home vs. the Canadiens that night too but Stubhub tix are looking a little steep right now.

In mid-March we're going to do a swing to Vassar and Wesleyan (both of which I think would be great fits, but are highly selective) and spend a night at my mother-in-law's in Boston while checking out BU and/or Tufts. 
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I went to Wesleyan in the early-to-mid 90s.  Feel free to ping me if you all have any questions.  Obviously I was there a while back, but I still follow everything pretty closely.  

 
bigbottom said:
Are you talking about merit or financial aid? If the former, I guess they wouldn’t have much of a motivation to give money unless they suspected that you would use it as a basis to pull out of your ED contract. For the latter, I’ve always heard that FA decisions are kept independent. But I don’t have any particular knowledge or insight on the point. (My son didn’t apply ED anywhere.)
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Merit.  She got into a back up school, hadn't really responded to any of their contacts and 3 weeks later a letter offering $17k arrived.  I really think if she jumped on the offer on day one, that letter would never have been sent, but what do I know?  I guess I am looking to see if anyone had a kid apply ED and get merit monies.  I am keeping the letter from the other school to use as leverage when negotiating when she gets into her first choice school.

 
Pipes said:
This.  My son is a senior in high school living in WI.  3.95 GPA, 31 ACT with a 36 in math is interested in Actuarial Sciences.  So he applied to Madison, Drake and Nebraska (All top 20 in the nation in that field).  Got into all 3 and will probably choose Madison.  Nebraska offered a $60K scholarship without even applying or asking so that tuition is very similar now to the in state Madison tuition.  I was told if he really wanted Nebraska we could ask for, and likely get more.  Drake's throwing some scholarship numbers back at us, again too without us asking.  Though we're visiting Drake in a couple of weeks because they apparently will give some healthy scholarships too but they want to meet and interview the students in person.

A buddy of mine kid is in the same class as my son and he's likely going to Ole Miss or Alabama.  Similar stats with a 32 Act and a GPA in the 3.7 neighborhood.  He's getting enough in merit scholarships where it's actually going to be cheaper for him go there vs staying in state.  There are a bunch of schools, including Arizona State, that offer tremendous out of state breaks for good students. 
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Agreed that out of state often times beats in state.  I've got a junior at Louisville and Freshman at Alabama.  I'm in WI and both are paying less than what it would be at Madison. Don't hesitate Alabama if Actuarial Sciences is your son's interest.  My daughter is in that program at Alabama.  They actually just hired Kenny who was teaching at Madison to lead the program at Alabama.  My daughter loves him. 

She had enough AP credits transfer in that she'll have her Masters in 4 years at Alabama.  She's taking her first actuary test this summer and should have 5 or 7 (can't remember how that all works) of them knocked out by the time she graduates.

 
Fishboy said:
Agreed that out of state often times beats in state.  I've got a junior at Louisville and Freshman at Alabama.  I'm in WI and both are paying less than what it would be at Madison. Don't hesitate Alabama if Actuarial Sciences is your son's interest.  My daughter is in that program at Alabama.  They actually just hired Kenny who was teaching at Madison to lead the program at Alabama.  My daughter loves him. 

She had enough AP credits transfer in that she'll have her Masters in 4 years at Alabama.  She's taking her first actuary test this summer and should have 5 or 7 (can't remember how that all works) of them knocked out by the time she graduates.
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Great info thank you

 
zoobird said:
Seems like the entire high school grading and college admissions evaluation process is completely broken.

One kid could go to a normal high school, get lucky with somewhat easier than average teachers, achieve an 89.5 average in every class, at a school that doesn't use + and - grades, and with rounding...all the colleges see is "4.0 average".  Another kid could go to a highly selective school that accepts 10% or less of applicants, get tougher teachers and be compared to much higher achieving classmates, still get 91.4 in every class and the colleges will see "3.7 average".  Swap those two kids' situations, and there could be a 10 point difference in their raw averages in favor of the "3.7".
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Every high school transcript which is sent to a college has a HS profile included. The HS profile provides a generic description of the school, curriculum, rigor options, demographics, etc. for the entire school (there is no specific information about your child on this document.) This is part of how colleges recognize the difference from one HS to another.  Is it perfect?  No. But colleges do have some context on the academic environment from school to school.

You can always have your child ask their college counselor for a copy of the HS profile they send to colleges to get a sense of what colleges will see.

 
How many college visits did you take with your kid? 

How many blind applications did your kid do, without a school visit?

How many visits were taken when they were in their senior year?

 
ex-ghost said:
How many college visits did you take with your kid? 

How many blind applications did your kid do, without a school visit?

How many visits were taken when they were in their senior year?
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About 8.

Six.

3 or 4

However, my kid was a three sport athlete (and captain for all those teams to boot) so it was virtually impossible for her to get away. Therefore, not sure our situation will serve as much of a guide.

 
ex-ghost said:
How many college visits did you take with your kid? 

How many blind applications did your kid do, without a school visit?

How many visits were taken when they were in their senior year?
Click to expand...
12

1 (out of 10)

We finished up all the visits by summer before senior year. Will likely be doing a couple post-acceptance visits between now and May 1.

 
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