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massraider

[DYNASTY] Lamar Jackson, MVP, Madden Cover. Hopefully Develops as a Passer

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Lamar Jackson completed 20-of-25 passes for 275 yards and three scores in the Ravens' Week 1 win over the Browns.

The 2019 MVP picked up where he left off in 2019 and shredded the Browns. In typical Jackson fashion, he was so dominant that Baltimore was able to pull him for Robert Griffin III in the fourth quarter. Jackson looked great in all facets including the two-minute drill. He orchestrated a seven-play, 69-yard drive in 35 seconds to put a final touchdown on the board before half-time. He also added 45 yards on the ground. The Ravens get an exciting date with the Texans next week in a matchup that features two of the league's stars at quarterback. He'll continue to battle Mahomes for the No. 1 fantasy quarterback spot in Week 2.

- Rotoworld

 

Edited by The Frankman

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Over his last 9 regular season games, Lamar now has a passer rating of 133.1

That includes a 28-1 TD to INT ratio, and a 70.6 completion percentage (149 of 211 for 1,752 yards)

The only two QBs to ever post a passer rating of over 120 for a full season are Rodgers (122.5 in 2011) and Manning (121.1 in 2004)

He also has 675 yards rushing and 4 TDs during that span

It's impossible to know how long it will last, but Lamar during the last half of 2019 and now the start of 2020 is playing QB at a historic level. At the age of 23. And there's still debate about whether he's really good or not.

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4 minutes ago, The_Man said:

Over his last 9 regular season games, Lamar now has a passer rating of 133.1

That includes a 28-1 TD to INT ratio, and a 70.6 completion percentage (149 of 211 for 1,752 yards)

The only two QBs to ever post a passer rating of over 120 for a full season are Rodgers (122.5 in 2011) and Manning (121.1 in 2004)

He also has 675 yards rushing and 4 TDs during that span

It's impossible to know how long it will last, but Lamar during the last half of 2019 and now the start of 2020 is playing QB at a historic level. At the age of 23. And there's still debate about whether he's really good or not.

There is??  The only criticism I still see of him is that his play hasn't been great in the playoffs thus far, which is more than fair.  Aside from that, everyone at this point knows he's really good.

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On 6/8/2020 at 11:30 AM, Milkman said:

Kyler Murray has a long career as a pocket passer in front of him when he's done running. He has a very talented arm. Lamar Jackson does not. 

Well here you go - not a talented arm. But somehow a 133.1 passer rating for more than half a season

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12 minutes ago, The_Man said:

Well here you go - not a talented arm. But somehow a 133.1 passer rating for more than half a season

Saying he doesn't have a "very talented arm" is not really a criticism.  

But I take back what I said earlier: another criticism I have seen of him is that he doesn't play well from behind, and that one seems to be fair as well.  And I am not talking falling behind 3-0 in the first quarter. ;) 

 

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32 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

There is??  The only criticism I still see of him is that his play hasn't been great in the playoffs thus far, which is more than fair.  Aside from that, everyone at this point knows he's really good.

That's fine. 

I'll give him a pass for the SD game two years ago. They were building that offense on the fly and Jackson was still getting his feet wet.

Last year against the Titans, though, was a failure. Some of that's on Jackson, who got frustrated when things didn't go well and went Hero Ball (& accounted for 500 yds of offense). I also think Roman panicked. 

Right or wrong, QBs are judged on winning big games. Lamar has won a bunch of them regular season, but he needs some wins in the postseason.

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28 minutes ago, The_Man said:

Well here you go - not a talented arm. But somehow a 133.1 passer rating for more than half a season

Dropped that deep pass to Brown in like a 10 year vet. It was perfecto.

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11 minutes ago, Uruk-Hai said:

That's fine. 

I'll give him a pass for the SD game two years ago. They were building that offense on the fly and Jackson was still getting his feet wet.

Last year against the Titans, though, was a failure. Some of that's on Jackson, who got frustrated when things didn't go well and went Hero Ball (& accounted for 500 yds of offense). I also think Roman panicked. 

Right or wrong, QBs are judged on winning big games. Lamar has won a bunch of them regular season, but he needs some wins in the postseason.

Agreed.  He is a stud thus far, there is no other way to say it.  But, for whatever reasons, he didn't play well in either playoff game so far.  I thought the whole team looked out of sorts in the playoff loss to the Titans, not just Jackson, but we all know the deal: the QB always gets too much credit when a team wins and too much blame when a team loses.

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5 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Agreed.  He is a stud thus far, there is no other way to say it.  But, for whatever reasons, he didn't play well in either playoff game so far.  I thought the whole team looked out of sorts in the playoff loss to the Titans, not just Jackson, but we all know the deal: the QB always gets too much credit when a team wins and too much blame when a team loses.

The Titans smacked the Ravens in the mouth and the Ravens blinked (& kept blinking all the way out of the playoffs).

Yesterday, Cleveland absolutely stifled Baltimore's run game just as Tennessee did. The big difference was that Jackson didn't let it bother him. He made some unbelievable passes; his most errant, in the first half, was the TD to Andrews. Those two drives to end the half (&, basically, the game) were gorgeous quarterbacking. Our little guy is growing up.

 

 

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Best player in football, IMO.  I wonder if those criticizing his arm actually watch the games, because Lamar has it all.  He really is the modern Steve Young.  

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His playoff performance needs to improve. He's 23 years old, what's taking so long???

 

And LOL at everyone agrees he's good. The ones that don't think so are just avoiding this thread now, don't kid yourself. 

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18 minutes ago, massraider said:

His playoff performance needs to improve. He's 23 years old, what's taking so long???

 

And LOL at everyone agrees he's good. The ones that don't think so are just avoiding this thread now, don't kid yourself. 

Yeah, they'll be back at the first 2-INT game.

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21 hours ago, Uruk-Hai said:

That's fine. 

I'll give him a pass for the SD game two years ago. They were building that offense on the fly and Jackson was still getting his feet wet.

Last year against the Titans, though, was a failure. Some of that's on Jackson, who got frustrated when things didn't go well and went Hero Ball (& accounted for 500 yds of offense). I also think Roman panicked. 

Right or wrong, QBs are judged on winning big games. Lamar has won a bunch of them regular season, but he needs some wins in the postseason.

Lamar's record as a starting NFL QB

0-2 in the playoffs
0-2 vs KC
21-1 vs everyone else (Lost Week 4 last year vs Cleveland)

It feels like the Ravens are on their way to another 11+ wins this year. At this point, the only individual games this season that really matter for judging Lamar are vs KC on MNF in 2 weeks and then the playoffs

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5 minutes ago, The_Man said:

Lamar's record as a starting NFL QB

0-2 in the playoffs
0-2 vs KC
21-1 vs everyone else (Lost Week 4 last year vs Cleveland)

It feels like the Ravens are on their way to another 11+ wins this year. At this point, the only individual games this season that really matter for judging Lamar are vs KC on MNF in 2 weeks and then the playoffs

Those games are judgments on the coaches as well. They need to slow KC down. I know you're a Lamar fan so this isn't directed at you:

 

Every BIG GAME Jackson plays is not some referendum on his future simply because you were wrong about him 2 years ago. 

 

Feel free to copy/paste as needed. 

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Just a reminder that Jackson is 23 years old.  Here are the other 23-year-old starting QBs.  None of them have made the playoffs yet so their playoff record is 0-0.

Joe Burrow
Drew Lock
Daniel Jones
Sam Darnold
Kyler Murray
Dwayne Haskins

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Lamar Jackson completed 18-of-24 passes for 201 yards and one score, rushing 16 times for 54 yards in Baltimore's 33-16 Week 3 cakewalk over the Texans.

It was smooth sailing for the Ravens, whose front-seven reached Deshaun Watson four times in the backfield as the team's offense cruised to an easy win behind 37 carries for 230 rushing yards (6.2 YPA). Houston's secondary limited Mark Andrews to a single catch but it was Marquise Brown (5/42) who consistently settled in holes throughout the defense to keep moving the chains. Jackson has been terrific when asked to drop back, completing 38-of-49 passes (77.5%) for 476 yards and four touchdowns through two games, but the Ravens' weekly siege on opponents has capped his upside (so far). Expect that to change in next week's primetime showdown against Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs.

- Rotoworld

WHAT? Under 20 FP from Jackson? What a bum. Washed. Cooked. Gloried wildcat WR. Bad attitude. Arrogant. Thug. May have impregnated an alien teen with a baby and left her without child support.

Edited by The Frankman

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James Palmer

@JamesPalmerTV

Lamar Jackson passed the 600 career pass attempts threshold Sunday. Jackson became the first player in NFL history with at least 45 touchdown passes (45) and fewer than 10 interceptions (9) over his first 600 pass attempts. I thought he couldn’t throw?

 

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Lamar Jackson completed just 15-of-28 passes for 97 yards and one touchdown in the Ravens' 34-20, Week 3 loss to the Chiefs Monday night.

Jackson rushed nine times for 83 yards to help save his fantasy day some, but this was a career worst passing day for last year's MVP, as his previous career low for passing yards was 105 yards. Jackson had 35 yards rushing and passing at halftime. The Ravens tried to make a second-half run, closing the gap to seven points after Jackson threw a short touchdown to Nick Boyle with 14:55 left in the fourth quarter. But it was too little, too late after a horrendous first half by the Ravens as a team. Jackson has struggled multiple times against Chiefs DC Steve Spagnuolo now in his career but should bounce back in a big way next week against Washington.

- Rotoworld

 

Edited by The Frankman

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Brutal.

Do you guys view this as a one game blip or cause for concern for the rest of the season?  I mean that was bad.

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30 minutes ago, Buck Bradcanon said:

Brutal.

Do you guys view this as a one game blip or cause for concern for the rest of the season?  I mean that was bad.

When you can easily correlate these blips to "big game" situations, it's hard to argue he didn't melt under the lights. I guess the answer to the concern question is different if it's fantasy focused or real football focused. Fantasy wise, I expect they go back to boot stomping inferior opponents.

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40 minutes ago, Buck Bradcanon said:

Brutal.

Do you guys view this as a one game blip or cause for concern for the rest of the season?  I mean that was bad.

Blip.

They got behind two scores and went away from their gameplan. Monday was the first time they trailed all season.

 

Now, if the opposing offense is good enough to get ahead like that and the D is good enough it's likely you can force Baltimore into that situation again, but what teams can do that? The Superbowl champs can and did, but not many teams have that type of firepower/play-calling to do that to Baltimore.

Edited by The Frankman
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3 hours ago, Buck Bradcanon said:

Brutal.

Do you guys view this as a one game blip or cause for concern for the rest of the season?  I mean that was bad.

Wishing for "blip" but nervous that it may continue (Jackson is my QB for reference)...

* Comparing Jackson to 2019 Jackson, that's two stinkers in a row... hence the concern. Almost seems impossible in today's NFL to throw for <100 yds.

* I believe this makes BAL 0-5 in games where they have trailed by 10 pts (Jackson era). That's not a massive deficit to overcome these days, so clearly there is a trend where "if you get up on them... stick a fork in them"

* The lack of go-to WR was glaring last night. We could be seeing McNabb/Eagles in the pre-TO era.

* Jackson's deep ball is still a frozen rope. As Griese pointed out last light, the more air you put under it, the better chance the WR has to adjust to it.

* Defensive coordinators are really good at adjusting during the off-season. Also, very good at copying one another. If there is a anti-Jackson formula out there... we'll find out shortly... maybe as soon as next week.

* Post game interviews were disturbing in that they were still focused on, and comparing themselves to the Chiefs. FORGET ABOUT THE CHIEFS... should be completely focused on winning the division. Steelers defense is no joke and already a game behind them.

If thy blow out WAS next week and Jackson puts up 30 fantasy points I will happily eat crow. If it's 20-16 and he's in the teens again... well... 'nuff said.

Edited by Dizzy
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On 9/14/2020 at 12:28 PM, tommyGunZ said:

Best player in football, IMO.  I wonder if those criticizing his arm actually watch the games, because Lamar has it all.  He really is the modern Steve Young.  

I'd take Wilson and Mahomes over him ....he clearly doesn't have it "all"....lots of work to do still.....might need to pump the brakes here a little.....lol

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29 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

Wishing for "blip" but nervous that it may continue (Jackson is my QB for reference)...

* Comparing Jackson to 2019 Jackson, that's two stinkers in a row... hence the concern. Almost seems impossible in today's NFL to throw for <100 yds.

* I believe this makes BAL 0-5 in games where they have trailed by 10 pts (Jackson era). That's not a massive deficit to overcome these days, so clearly there is a trend where "if you get up on them... stick a fork in them"

* The lack of go-to WR was glaring last night. We could be seeing McNabb/Eagles in the pre-TO era.

* Jackson's deep ball is still a frozen rope. As Griese pointed out last light, the more air you put under it, the better chance the WR has to adjust to it.

* Defensive coordinators are really good at adjusting during the off-season. Also, very good at copying one another. If there is a anti-Jackson formula out there... we'll find out shortly... maybe as soon as next week.

* Post game interviews were disturbing in that they were still focused on, and comparing themselves to the Chiefs. FORGET ABOUT THE CHIEFS... should be completely focused on winning the division. Steelers defense is no joke and already a game behind them.

If thy blow out WAS next week and Jackson puts up 30 fantasy points I will happily eat crow. If it's 20-16 and he's in the teens again... well... 'nuff said.

I would say the blueprint has already been laid out and every team knows what it is. Jackson is not a great prototypical quarterback, maybe not even a good NFL passer at all. His success through the air is predicated from defenses addressing the run. So it's pretty simple to me, a team only needs to remove the rushing element of the offense forcing Jackson to throw the ball like a normal quarterback.

I think this is easier said than done, evidenced by the fact so few teams have done it.

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On 9/14/2020 at 11:08 AM, The_Man said:

Well here you go - not a talented arm. But somehow a 133.1 passer rating for more than half a season

@The_Man

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The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. As teams get a better idea how to defend this offense.....seeing what has worked in the past.....it could get tough for Lamar. 

In his defense he had some guys drop some passes that should have been caught. 

When he stops running though the bottom is going to fall out. 

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2 minutes ago, cloppbeast said:

I would say the blueprint has already been laid out and every team knows what it is. Jackson is not a great prototypical quarterback, maybe not even a good NFL passer at all. His success through the air is predicated from defenses addressing the run. So it's pretty simple to me, a team only needs to remove the rushing element of the offense forcing Jackson to throw the ball like a normal quarterback.

I think this is easier said than done, evidenced by the fact so few teams have done it.

This is the dilemma of all these run first QBs....

 

It's wonderful to be mobile and keep defenses off but in every big game there will come a time that a great pass is needed. Even for the Mannings, Bradys, and Montanas of the world, this is a extremely difficult thing to do. Now you want to rely on a guy who isn't a naturally gifted passer to make a tough throw? 

 

And PLEASE for the love of god miss me with all the passing stats for these run first clownshows. Sure you can hit the WIDE open TE and crossing WRs after youve faked the handoff and are luring the defense in with your feet. 

 

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Just now, Milkman said:

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. As teams get a better idea how to defend this offense.....seeing what has worked in the past.....it could get tough for Lamar. 

In his defense he had some guys drop some passes that should have been caught. 

When he stops running though the bottom is going to fall out. 

Yup. These guys all have about a 2-5 year window, then theyre toast. By the time and IF they ever develop as passers they have already be run through the ringer and they dont have much left. 

 

All the years they have been able to bail themselves out with their feet was at the detriment of their development as passers. 

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4 minutes ago, STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:

 

 

And PLEASE for the love of god miss me with all the passing stats for these run first clownshows. Sure you can hit the WIDE open TE and crossing WRs after youve faked the handoff and are luring the defense in with your feet. 

 

This is exactly what is happening. These throwing windows are wide open because of the threat of the run. Once that threat of running is gone those windows get a lot smaller and only the great arm talents of the NFL can consistently make those throws. 

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35 minutes ago, STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:

And PLEASE for the love of god miss me with all the passing stats for these run first clownshows. Sure you can hit the WIDE open TE and crossing WRs after youve faked the handoff and are luring the defense in with your feet.

These wide open receivers are a product of Lamar though. You're giving him enough credit. We haven't seen many quarterbacks in the NFL like him - ones that are among the best runners in the NFL. He's basically a running back who can throw the ball pretty well. Combined with the Ravens accommodating his unique abilities and he's a hard player to defend. It's not easy to stop them from running the football. Defenses have to put a lot of effort into it, leading to open receivers, mostly tight ends.

When the Ravens fall behind, of course that's a problem.

 

Edited by cloppbeast

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49 minutes ago, STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:

Yup. These guys all have about a 2-5 year window, then theyre toast. By the time and IF they ever develop as passers they have already be run through the ringer and they dont have much left. 

 

All the years they have been able to bail themselves out with their feet was at the detriment of their development as passers. 

Yeah, that Russell Wilson dude totally sucks now.  

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2 minutes ago, CalBear said:

Yeah, that Russell Wilson dude totally sucks now.  

Wilson has always been a pass-first QB (in his NFL career).  Eyes are always looking downfield even when he approaches the line.

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4 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

Wilson has always been a pass-first QB (in his NFL career).  Eyes are always looking downfield even when he approaches the line.

Really, are you going to make me dig up these exact arguments from threads early in Wilson's career?

Wilson was top-3 in rushing attempts by QBs for the first four years of his career, leading the league in 2014 with 118/849/6 on the ground.

 

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1 hour ago, oswizzle said:

Antonio Brown countdown is officially on for the Ravens... their pass catchers suck 

This would add some zest to the normally insane PIT v BAL brawl.

To your point though, fully with you and mildly stunned that BAL didn't address this in the off season.

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7 minutes ago, CalBear said:

Really, are you going to make me dig up these exact arguments from threads early in Wilson's career?

Wilson was top-3 in rushing attempts by QBs for the first four years of his career, leading the league in 2014 with 118/849/6 on the ground.

 

You can do that. You would be the only person who doesn’t share the last name “Jackson” who thinks Lamar and Wilson are in the same realm as passers. 

We’ve seen Jackson before. He’s Vick. He’s Vince Young. He’s Mitchell Trubisky with a better organization and HC. 

In the end he will have as many rings as those guys are responsible for. 
 

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12 minutes ago, STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:

You can do that. You would be the only person who doesn’t share the last name “Jackson” who thinks Lamar and Wilson are in the same realm as passers. 

We’ve seen Jackson before. He’s Vick. He’s Vince Young. He’s Mitchell Trubisky with a better organization and HC. 

In the end he will have as many rings as those guys are responsible for. 
 

The argument that Jackson more like Vince Young than Russell Wilson is really not worth engaging with. The best Vince Young ever did was throw 12 TDs vs 13 INTs in a season.

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24 minutes ago, STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:

You can do that. You would be the only person who doesn’t share the last name “Jackson” who thinks Lamar and Wilson are in the same realm as passers. 

We’ve seen Jackson before. He’s Vick. He’s Vince Young. He’s Mitchell Trubisky with a better organization and HC. 

In the end he will have as many rings as those guys are responsible for. 
 

Since winning the 2012 Super Bowl, the Ravens had gone 35-39 with 1 playoff win in 4.5 years. Since he took over midway through 2018, they're 22-4. How did the coaches suddenly get so smart? 

Lamar's career QB rating is 105.6. It's the second highest ever for a QB with at least 25 starts (Mahomes is #1 at 109.4).

Even after last night he has 30 TD passes and 1 INT in his last 11 games. 

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1 minute ago, The_Man said:

Since winning the 2012 Super Bowl, the Ravens had gone 35-39 with 1 playoff win in 4.5 years. Since he took over midway through 2018, they're 22-4. How did the coaches suddenly get so smart? 

Lamar's career QB rating is 105.6. It's the second highest ever for a QB with at least 25 starts (Mahomes is #1 at 109.4).

Even after last night he has 30 TD passes and 1 INT in his last 11 games. 

Agreed, BUT... the BAL offensive philosophy was not typical in today's NFL. Took DCs out of their comfort level and rode the wave for a season.

Now, through 3 games at least, the eyeball test says that they've figured it out. Time will tell. I would LOVE to be wrong about this.

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I think Jackson will be fine...but NFL DC’s were able to spend months dissecting the Ravens offense which they unveiled in 2019.  Much different than having to do it on the fly in-season.  There’s probably been adjustments made to defending Lamar...now it’s on Lamar to do the same.

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1 hour ago, CalBear said:

Really, are you going to make me dig up these exact arguments from threads early in Wilson's career?

Wilson was top-3 in rushing attempts by QBs for the first four years of his career, leading the league in 2014 with 118/849/6 on the ground.

 

You have to look beyond rushing stats.  Wilson will always take the calculated biggest play.  That is one of his strength.  He will always end up with high rushing numbers compared to the classical pocket passer.  But this does not make him a rushing QB.   He averaged 100 attempts per year over the first 4 years of his career, and has averaged 75 attempts for the last 4 years.  He still runs if it will result in a bigger play.

I welcome you to read through the first 20 pages of the Russell Wilson thread (it starts from when he was drafted).  His scramble ability and running were always a big threat, but not many discounted his passing.  And he is always looking downfield for the bigger play.  In 2015 he rushed 103 times.  But he passed for 4K yards and 34 TD's.  

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36 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

You have to look beyond rushing stats.  Wilson will always take the calculated biggest play.  That is one of his strength.  He will always end up with high rushing numbers compared to the classical pocket passer.  But this does not make him a rushing QB.   He averaged 100 attempts per year over the first 4 years of his career, and has averaged 75 attempts for the last 4 years.  He still runs if it will result in a bigger play.

I welcome you to read through the first 20 pages of the Russell Wilson thread (it starts from when he was drafted).  His scramble ability and running were always a big threat, but not many discounted his passing.  And he is always looking downfield for the bigger play.  In 2015 he rushed 103 times.  But he passed for 4K yards and 34 TD's.  

Wilson is amazing. I just think the question of "Can Jackson's career approach Russell Wilson's?" is way more relevant and evidence based than "Will Jackson's career look like Vince Young's?" Define "running QB" however you want, but your comparables have to be those who have had great passing success as well as being running QBs. Start with the group of Newton, Kaepernick, Wilson, not a bunch of guys who never had a good passing season.

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2 hours ago, TheDirtyWord said:

I think Jackson will be fine...but NFL DC’s were able to spend months dissecting the Ravens offense which they unveiled in 2019.  Much different than having to do it on the fly in-season.  There’s probably been adjustments made to defending Lamar...now it’s on Lamar to do the same.

I also think he'll be fine for the most part. It's one thing to be able to figure out how to stop a guy like this, it's another to have the players with the ability to execute it.

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He will have a relatively short career.   Out of the NFL by the age of 30.    

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1 hour ago, CalBear said:

Wilson is amazing. I just think the question of "Can Jackson's career approach Russell Wilson's?" is way more relevant and evidence based than "Will Jackson's career look like Vince Young's?" Define "running QB" however you want, but your comparables have to be those who have had great passing success as well as being running QBs. Start with the group of Newton, Kaepernick, Wilson, not a bunch of guys who never had a good passing season.

Newton and Kaepernick do not belong in the same sentence with Wilson regarding passing.  It's because Wilson is such a great (and I mean great) passer, that it is hard for me to consider him a rushing QB.  Look at just his throwing stats over the last 8 years and compare them to the best in the game.  He is right there.

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1 hour ago, Chaz McNulty said:

Newton and Kaepernick do not belong in the same sentence with Wilson regarding passing.  It's because Wilson is such a great (and I mean great) passer, that it is hard for me to consider him a rushing QB.  Look at just his throwing stats over the last 8 years and compare them to the best in the game.  He is right there.

I think it's really silly to not consider Wilson a "rushing QB", whatever that means, when he's #2 in the league (to Newton) among QBs in rushing attempts and yardage among QBs since he entered, and #3 in rushing yards/attempt (to Newton and Jackson). And he has almost twice as many rushing attempts as the #3 guy (Alex Smith). And he's #11 in passing attempts over that time frame.

Sure, Wilson is better than Newton, or Kaepernick or, today, Jackson. But those guys, and Mahomes are the comps in terms of play style and potential. Not career 56.9% passing Vick or 57.9%, more-INTs-than-TDs Young. 

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