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QB Lamar Jackson, BAL (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter massraider
- Start date
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Improved already in terms of pass completion percentage.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/3916387/lamar-jackson
that's not as an in the pocket passer....
this story has been written time and time again that so and so will get so much better in the pocket. It may happen for lamar but it's not an easy task and the road before him is littered with failed attempts
CalBear
Footballguy
He doesn't have to be a pocket passer, any more than Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers has to be. In fact it is silliness to try to make a guy like Jackson be a pocket passer, just like it was silliness of Tennessee to try to make Mariota be a pocket passer.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Just Win Baby
Footballguy
I'm not necessarily arguing the point on Jackson, but, even though they are better than other QBs at passing on the move, Wilson and Rodgers are both excellent pocket passers, and pocket passing constitutes the bulk of their passing success.
Baltimore was missing a possession WR. No matter how good Andrews was in his role it is still not a possession WR. Brown fits a role that is needed and will excel. Boykin seems like their projected possession guy but I don't think he will get there. Snead/Roberts are JAG's. They need a possession WR that can be relied upon in 3rd in 8 to 12 type plays.
Lamar made great strides as a passer from year 1 to year 2. There is still room for improvement but it also takes a complimentary piece (possession WR) to get there. With how hard Lamar worked in the offseason to improve his passing game I have no doubt he will be in the effort. I look forward to seeing the development.
Lamar made great strides as a passer from year 1 to year 2. There is still room for improvement but it also takes a complimentary piece (possession WR) to get there. With how hard Lamar worked in the offseason to improve his passing game I have no doubt he will be in the effort. I look forward to seeing the development.
to be a good qb you have to be a good pocket passer in the long term...Wilson and Rodgers move but can still make amazing throws and decisions from the pocket.
Although, as i stated before, i don't think even the ravens think jackson is the long term answer. They are using him like a three year project. Run him down until he gets hurt and then move on.
There isn't a qb in the league with a perfect wr core. The wrs stink of the packers, they stink of the chiefs, they stink on the 49ers, they stink on NE
CalBear
Footballguy
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
The easiest thing in the world is to be a troll. Just wait for that one bad game, or that one injury and someone can be "right" for a day.
The Packers have Davonte Adams (top 5 WR in the NFL)
The Chiefs have Tyreek Hill, Watkins, Kelce (no contest to what the Ravens have)
The 49ers have Sanders (great possession WR which changed their offense when he arrived) & Kittle (top 2 TE in the league and a difference maker on offense)
NE has worse WR's and this was Brady's worst year ever because he had nobody that could get open on 3rd down.
I am not sure what the point was to your comment. You were mostly comparing apples to oranges.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
-OZ-
Footballguy
that's just insane. Hill, Kelce, Watkins and Hardeman might be the best quartet in the league. Obviously Mahomes helps that, but they also help him.
I'd also say the Bucs have a darn near perfect receiving corps.
chinawildman
Footballguy
It's not so much that Jackson has to be an effective "pocket" passer... He clearly is accurate w/ certain throws. It' that he needs to be proficient at sideline throws which require not just accuracy but timing. One bad/late throw to the sideline could easily mean 6 going the other way.
chinawildman
Footballguy
This has been said of literally EVERY running QB that showed promise in the NFL... I mean who ever says" __________ will NEVER improve as a passer"? Funny thing is... the latter has proven to be true more often than not.
so you think that it's not strange that a team is literally having their qb run 20 times a game, taking huge hits and lots of those runs designed and up the middle of the field?
most days strategize to protect their asset...baltimore is doing the complete opposite
chinawildman
Footballguy
Give it a season. When Kap came on the scene in 2012, nobody really slowed him down up to and including the SB. T'was all downhill after that. And I dunno where you're getting these Vick stats, I see he had 3300 yds passing with Philly 2011 and that was playing only 13 games. The 21 TDs also playing 12 games.
And I'm not sure how you can say teams have not adjusted... did you not just watch the vaunted #1 ranked ravens offense get held to 12 pts? TBH if Jackson has a career equivalent to that of Vick that would exceed my expectations of him.
IheartGuinness
Footballguy
cloppbeast
Footballguy
I've never seen people make so many excuses for an league mvp. Maybe because they never had to until now?IheartGuinness said:
IheartGuinness
Footballguy
Agree. Good points.chinawildman said:
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
You guys realize that this type of offense actually sets back football about 50 years, right? You guys don’t seriously think this is some kind a new breed sophisticated offense, do you?cloppbeast said:
I'm not sure if you are comparing a qb to a rb with this post? If you are, i guess i just disagree. Long term you cannot run your qb into the heart of a defense
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Not really.
As far as defenses figuring it out, that's not what happened with the Titans. Because the scheme is nothing new there's nothing to figure out.
The_Man
Footballguy
The week after I posted this, Lamar started a 7-game stretch where he posted a QB rating of 130.0. He finished the season with a passer rating of 113.3 at age 22. The only other QBs to top 100 at that age are Deshaun Watson (103.0) in 2017 and RG3 (102.4) in 2012. Next on the list are Roethlisberger and Marino.
I still think the Pennington comp is pretty solid. As the world saw Saturday, he doesn't have great arm strength and struggles to throw outside the numbers. So the Ravens didn't do him any favors by having him drop back to pass 72 times (59 attempts, 4 sacks, 9 scrambles). How in the world did the Ravens RBs combine for only 9 rushes after the team destroyed the all-time NFL season rushing record? Clearly, the coaches choked as bad as the players. Also, Lamar is young and gets a little frenetic when the team struggles, which is when he pushes to make a play and often makes a mistake instead, rather than letting the game come to him.
There is no reason to think he won't get better. And he finished the season with a 66% completion rate, which will be fine even if he doesn't improve.
However, the harsh reality is that Lamar now has a playoff monkey on his back. In some ways, nothing he does all next year matters until January. He's shown he can have a dominant regular season and so people will be much less impressed if that happens again next year - they're going to be watching to see if he can get it done in the clutch (and waiting to pounce if he can't)
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I must have gone to a page that broke off the Atlanta numbers in one chart and the other teams into individual graphs so lets look at the entire career numbers of Vick. Vick had 13 NFL seasons and only one where he started all 16 games. Lamar sat the final after the Ravens clinched the BYE, the only game he has not started.chinawildman said:
Vick's best season, running was with Atlanta in 2006 when he started all 16 games and had 1,039 yards with 2 TDs. He did that in his 6th NFL season, his 5th as a full-time starter.
Lamar has broken so many records and is coming off a 1,206 yard rushing season with 7 TDs. As noted he sat the final game so he did that in only 15 games. 2nd season and 1st as a full-time starter.
Vick's best passing season was in his 9th NFL season in Philly 2011 (after his two year suspension and 8th as a full-time starter) He missed 3 starts.
- COMP 253
- ATT 423
- PER 59.8
- YDS 3,303
- TD 18
- INT 14
- QB RT 84.9
- RSH ATT 76
- RSH YDS 589
- COMP 265
- ATT 401
- PER 66.1
- YDS 3,127
- TD 36
- INT 6
- RT 113.3
Funny because last year after they lost to the Chargers people said they had that offense figured out. So how do you explain the record shattering season? Is that proof the Raven offense was figured out?
One game = figured out the Raven offense? Recency bias much?
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In Kaep's offense he was so restricted in the passing game that they cut the field in half to limit his reads. Once defenses figured out they only had to defend half the field he was shut down and the offense sputtered. Lamar is far superior to Kaep and the offense wasn't limited to make it simple.chinawildman said:
As far as the Titans figuring out the Ravens offense and shutting it down...…..that didn't exactly happen. The Titan offense played a great game and kept control with the lead. It caused the Ravens to press. They were able to move the ball without much issue but it faltered on 4th and short due mostly to terrible play calling. Lamar's demeanor is the biggest concern for me but I also have seen how he bounced back from last year's playoff loss to improve his passing tremendously. I expect he will put in the work this off season and give himself a chance to get even better than he was last year. However, he cannot do it all alone.
More than stopping Lamar I think the Ravens were badly outcoached by the Titans and that was the real difference in the game.
The_Man
Footballguy
Can people tell me what they mean by Lamar's demeanor? He came into a veteran team last year and by the end of Season 2 is the unquestioned leader - everyone on the team loves the guy.
He definitely pressed in the Titans game and got a little rattled. But he never stopped trying to make a play, never called out a teammate after any one of the dropped passes, never got in a coach's face.
He definitely pressed in the Titans game and got a little rattled. But he never stopped trying to make a play, never called out a teammate after any one of the dropped passes, never got in a coach's face.
James Daulton
Footballguy
Playoff monkey? He's 0-2 with little/young skill talent. He'll be 23 or 24 next round of the playoffs.
He'll be fine. I'm more concerned with the coaching. Those two blown 4th downs were at a minimum a 10 pt swing. Swing it 10pts and the Ravens are down by 5 going into the final quarter.
He worked so hard last off season so I expect to see huge improvement in his passing and arm strength next year. The guy's a competitor on a young, talented team with cap room and a strong front office. The next 5 years will be fun.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
chinawildman
Footballguy
You could say the same about the titans/ravens game... except the half they chose to defend was the middle of the field and the half they gave Jackson were outside the hashmarks. Yea he moved the ball, but it became clear that taking away the chunk run plays and making the Ravens consistently execute WORKED. Jackson's 30-ish QBR in the game attests to the fact that when it mattered, he didn't get it done.
chinawildman
Footballguy
I never said the offense has been "figured out"... my point has been that teams will adjust to Jackson by letting him have the small runs and betting that over the course of a 15 play drive, he isn't consistent enough as a passer to sustain drives. He'll still be a productive FF QB, but the chunk plays aren't gonna come as easily and the ravens offense as a whole will likely not be as efficient.
The Ravens finished as the #1 offense. Statistically speaking, there's a lot more room for regression than improvement so when ppl simply assume that "he's gonna get better"... yea skill-wise sure, maybe... but production wise his efficiency is almost guaranteed to go down.
Not the same thing. My comment was regarding progression and reads for Kaep. He only had two reads to make on one half the field. Much easier to take that away. The Titans took away the strength of Jackson but he was still able to move the ball while not playing his best. The defense worked for that one game and it helped that the offense of Tennessee got a big lead and were able to run at will. Everything game script wise was perfect for Tennessee. That also affects how the Ravens offense played. Overall I think the Ravens were severely out coached and were beaten in that game. I don't think it was all just that Lamar was figured out. One game is not a trend.
CalBear
Footballguy
This is fallacious. Yes, you should bet on the field if you have to bet on whether Baltimore will end up as the #1 offense in 2020. But they're still a better bet than almost any other team; except for KC maybe. After a historic 2018, Mahomes "regressed" in 2019 to 8.3 YPA and a QB rating of 105.3 and KC regressed to the AFC Championship Game (at least).
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Something to consider:
Jackson led the league in TD passes despite being 26th in pass attempts and 28th in passing yards per game.
That is highly unusual, and the odds of that happening in consecutive seasons are not good.
Jackson led the league in TD passes despite being 26th in pass attempts and 28th in passing yards per game.
That is highly unusual, and the odds of that happening in consecutive seasons are not good.
CalBear
Footballguy
Fortunately he will "regress" to being closer to the median in pass attempts, according to the logic above.
Partly why he threw so many TD passes is that opponents had to have a defender spying on him all the time. He is going to throw more TDs per attempt than the average.
chinawildman
Footballguy
Or you could simply go with precedence... Roman v1.0 w/ Kap, RG3, the Wildcat, VY, hell even Tim Tebow (who let's not forget passed for 300 yds in his first playoff game AND WON). The mountain of evidence against sustained success from running QB focused offenses is pretty significant.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Its a remarkable feat considering the receiving options Jackson had to work with.
As far as the recent game vs the Titans I saw Jackson make some throws that could have led to points clanking off of Boykin and other receivers hands.
What Jackson did is record shattering, so sure hard to expect that to be sustainable, however how he got those numbers in my view still leaves a lot of room for upside if he continues to improve as a passer and some of the weapons around him improve as well.
wgoldsph
Footballguy
Kap went to a superbowl, rg3 was a monster before being injured in his first playoff game and never was the same, and Tebow was a junk player not a real qb. Off the top of my head I forget Young's career.
You also forgot Vick who had a series of good years before jail (and not any football issues) derailed his career, Cam Newton who transformed into a pocket passer later in his career, and if we're going back further there's the great Steve Young and the less great Randall Cunningham. One could also argue Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers do a fair bit of running, although to a much lesser extent.
Point is, there's a mountain of evidence saying a running qb can preform at a superbowl level for as long as a team's window is open, which is really what matters.
chinawildman
Footballguy
Jackson was shutdown as a runner in the 1st half when the game was well within reach. I get that I'm in a thread talking to Jackson dynasty owners who all think this game's a fluke and the glass will forever be full, but every team from here on out will employ the same defensive strategy until it stops working. Like I said, he'll still get his FF pts... just will never be as easy as it came this season.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
chinawildman
Footballguy
You're kinda proving my point. All these running QBs shined bright early, but then burnt out quickly. All were bestowed the same superlatives heaped on Jackson. BTW VY won rookie of the year.
The other dudes you listed later are QBs that CAN run, not running QBs operating in offenses tailored specifically to make them runners. They could operate as pocket passers... the running ability was gravy. Coincidentally they were also able to sustain lengthier careers as NFL QBs.
chinawildman
Footballguy
1) Stack safeties hi/lo into the middle of the field to take away TE seam/corner routes.
2) The spy's job isn't to tackle the QB, it's to play basketball defense and use the sideline to string Jackson out laterally. If he gains 5 yds by cutting back to the middle of the field? So be it. Make him work and get tackled for every yd. This clearly frustrated him, he had 9 carries for 27 yds for a paltry 3 YPC in the TEN game.
3) CBs sit on shallow crosses and bet on the fact Jackson doesn't have the accuracy/timing to complete deep outs.
It's exactly the same way teams eventually neutralized Kaepernick. In his 2nd year the niners went from 11th in yds on offense to 25th. The tight ends are the key... Vernon davis's stats fell off a cliff in Roman's final year. This is why I emphasize that Jackson must learn the precision of being able to throw sideline routes. It's not like TEN had an all-star defense... just played good disciplined team defense.
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The Man With No Name
Footballguy
3 more years until they HAVE to pay him big bucks. They only have 41 players under contract for 2020 so free agency and the draft will be important for them to keep atop their division.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
And I'm in a league where TDs of all types are paramount. Yards mean a lot less unless it gets to four or five hundred yards for a QB.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Thats fine and has nothing to do with my original take of noting the Ravens were doing something different before the season began and that I did not think teams had him figured out which they didn't and showed he wasn't like Vick or Kap who didn't come close to his numbers because they didn't.
The numbers exceeded everyone's expectations so to say his numbers will go down is not a unique take worth noting but saying last year before he blew up that the Ravens have done something different and that teams would not be able to adjust was worth noting.
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