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In hot water...or rather out of it... (1 Viewer)

Fat Nick

Fat Nick

Footballguy
So our hot water heater is on its last legs.  It's original to the house (1999) and most of what I've read says that they last 10-15 years tops...So it's way past its prime.  The other night it started throwing the breaker, which I believe is often due to the element shorting out.  We called a plumber and he recommended replacing it, mostly due to the age.  I don't disagree with him, but we've got an 80 gallon electric heater right now.  He said that they don't really make 80 gallon residential heaters now, and that in order to go to an 80 gallon, you usually have to buy a commercial grade one (stainless tank, better warranty, etc).  and the price jump is high.

So one of the things I've loved about our heater to-date is that when we have family for the holidays, my sister-in-law can take her obnoxious 30 minute steaming hot showers and we still have water left for everyone else.  I'm concerned that downgrading to a 50 gallon tank won't be sufficient.  My 80 gallon has NEVER run out of hot water when I needed it.  That said, I really don't know if a 50 would be the same way or if I really should pay up for the 80.

What size hot water tank do you guys have?  Have you had issues running out of hot H20?  From what I understand, electric regenerates more slowly...I do have electric, so that's a strike against a smaller tank.

 
At our previous house we had two 40 gal hot water tanks (gas) that worked well. Tankless might be an option, but when we looked at tankless it was expensive, including requiring to run a dedicated gas line up to the attic on top of a two story house.  

 
If the only time an 80 gallon might be needed is once a year there is no way I would break the bank to do it. 50 gallon works for almost every family. I have a 50 gallon hybrid water heater for a family of 4 and we seldom/never have any issues (now that our son has been "cured" of his obnoxiously long hot showers).

 
I'm not really considering the tankless option.  Mainly because it requires installation at multiple points.  We JUST had our basement finished, and I don't feel like having more construction to get electrical and adjust the plumbing at each of our sinks/showers/tubs.  As noted, we live in the country, so no natural gas - all electric for us.

The dual-40 gallon is an interesting thought...I feel like that would be expensive to run though, no?  Double the heating elements?

 
Have 50 gallon for family of four.  In our master bath, I took out the restrictor so that we have a nice rainfall effect.  Hot water is only an issue when all four of us have to coordinate showers within an hour and that happens once or twice a year. 

 
Fat Nick said:
I'm not really considering the tankless option.  Mainly because it requires installation at multiple points.  We JUST had our basement finished, and I don't feel like having more construction to get electrical and adjust the plumbing at each of our sinks/showers/tubs.  As noted, we live in the country, so no natural gas - all electric for us.

The dual-40 gallon is an interesting thought...I feel like that would be expensive to run though, no?  Double the heating elements?
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Why would a tankless water heater require plumbing modification at each sink/shower/tub??

 
Fat Nick said:
I'm not really considering the tankless option.  Mainly because it requires installation at multiple points.  We JUST had our basement finished, and I don't feel like having more construction to get electrical and adjust the plumbing at each of our sinks/showers/tubs.  As noted, we live in the country, so no natural gas - all electric for us.

The dual-40 gallon is an interesting thought...I feel like that would be expensive to run though, no?  Double the heating elements?
Click to expand...
Bumping up the temp of the water on the tank during times of high demand will allow you to use less hot water to achieve the same temps. Just be sure to let everyone in the house know so they don't assume the same handle position net the same temp and get burned. :lol:

 
Fat Nick said:
I'm not really considering the tankless option.  Mainly because it requires installation at multiple points.  We JUST had our basement finished, and I don't feel like having more construction to get electrical and adjust the plumbing at each of our sinks/showers/tubs.  As noted, we live in the country, so no natural gas - all electric for us.

The dual-40 gallon is an interesting thought...I feel like that would be expensive to run though, no?  Double the heating elements?
Click to expand...
Don't think you really need multiple tankless (could be wrong) but you would likely need a new breaker and heavy gauge wiring installed. Typical water heater uses 30A breaker and 10ga (I think) wiring. Tankless needs 60A and 6ga wire.

 
[icon] said:
Bumping up the temp of the water on the tank during times of high demand will allow you to use less hot water to achieve the same temps. Just be sure to let everyone in the house know so they don't assume the same handle position net the same temp and get burned. :lol:
Click to expand...
So I already do this on the 80 - but I've wondered, how high can you turn it up before there are issues?  I think I have it at 125, and 135 when company is over.  I forgot to turn it down when they did our basement inspection, and they nearly failed us for having it too high.  Guy just turned it down and it was fine though.

 
Fat Nick said:
I thought those were the units that mount at/under each sink, etc?  Don't you need one per place you need hot water?
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Nope, most take the place of the tank at the same location. You may need a larger space and venting but I don't recall any other requirements.

 
russinfortworth said:
Buy 50 Gallon, use savings to get SIL a hotel when she visits.
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If that was an option, I'd just do that every time, but that wouldn't fly.  We've got 4 bedrooms upstairs, and one kid for now, and the sister-in-law (and MIL for some reason) was just furious that we didn't devote significant square footage in our basement to another bedroom so she can have it on the 2-3x/year she visits.  She already insists on using our master bath when she's there because the guest bath is "too small."  We remodeled the guest bath 3 years ago.  It's got double sinks...but it's too small.  That's part of the reason why it pisses me off with her shower habits - We'll all need to get ready to go somewhere, and since she takes hours to get ready, she showers first, and uses most of the hot water.  Everyone else suffers.  The diva mentality runs strong in her.  She'll protest and not invite her boyfriend to family stuff because she's "embarrassed" at him having to sleep on the sofa in our house.

 
50 gallon gas here with a family of 5. We only get concerned if 4 people shower within a very short time.

Go gas instead of electric if you can.

 
  Your plumber is full of ####. No pun intended.

1-Google "80 gallon electric water heater".

2-Hire a  different plumber to install.  

There should not be an additional charge  simply because it's "big" tank. 

If he says something about having to reconfigure the pipes because the height of the tank, see if flexible braided lines are an option.

 
One tankless will generally serve the entire house and will basically be installed where your current water heater is. Your attic access may limit getting a new 80 gallon heater in. Yes, you will have two heating elements if you get two water heaters but I think the relative annual cost of a water heater is rather low (except when your SIL is visiting). They just plumb each of them into the main hot pipe. 

 
STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:
  Your plumber is full of ####. No pun intended.

1-Google "80 gallon electric water heater".

2-Hire a  different plumber to install.  

There should not be an additional charge  simply because it's "big" tank. 

If he says something about having to reconfigure the pipes because the height of the tank, see if flexible braided lines are an option.
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So I got the model of the larger tank they say they'd use.  I wasn't home when the guy was actually here, so yesterday I was going off what the wife said.  The 80 gallon he's using is THIS one.  Rheem Marathon.  So here's my issue:

He's saying a normal 50 gallon would be $1800 installed.  He's saying the Rheem Marathon would be $3200 installed.  I 100% agree with you that there shouldn't be an additional charge because it's a big tank from the install side.  I can't bridge the gap between $3,200 and $1,800.  The price difference is essentially saying that the 50 gallon tank is $100 ($3,200 - $1,800 vs. the cost of the 85 gallon in the link above)  all other things equal.  There's an upcharge in the install cost, and that's what I'm not OK with.  I'm going to call him today to get the story.  Either wifey is missing something in his details, or he's upcharging on the install.

 
You can probably change the upper and lower elements and the thermostat yourself for around $30.  Unless your tank is in bad shape, it's worth a shot.  

Link

 
Just got mine replaced last week. Went from 50 gallon to 38 gallon. Family of 4.  New one is much quicker to recover. 80 gallon is nuts IMO.  

 
Wooderson said:
Just got mine replaced last week. Went from 50 gallon to 38 gallon. Family of 4.  New one is much quicker to recover. 80 gallon is nuts IMO.  
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How much was the install?  Or did you DIY?

 
Tankless is in only one location.  I would DEFINITELY look into that. 

Had an 80 in my previous house and agree it's nice to always have hot water but if you're replacing, especially for what you're describing, a 50 would be just fine. 

 
Fat Nick said:
I'm not really considering the tankless option.  Mainly because it requires installation at multiple points.  We JUST had our basement finished, and I don't feel like having more construction to get electrical and adjust the plumbing at each of our sinks/showers/tubs.  As noted, we live in the country, so no natural gas - all electric for us.

The dual-40 gallon is an interesting thought...I feel like that would be expensive to run though, no?  Double the heating elements?
Click to expand...
You only would need to adjust the plumbing at your sink/tub if you get a reflow tankless. That doesn't really add much efficiency. I am really happy with the tankless I put in last year.

 
We had tankless water heaters in Japan and loved them (one for upstairs and one for down). If you intend to stay in this house for a while I would go tankless.  No reason to heat water 24/7 when you only need it a couple times a day.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Fat Nick said:
If that was an option, I'd just do that every time, but that wouldn't fly.  We've got 4 bedrooms upstairs, and one kid for now, and the sister-in-law (and MIL for some reason) was just furious that we didn't devote significant square footage in our basement to another bedroom so she can have it on the 2-3x/year she visits.  She already insists on using our master bath when she's there because the guest bath is "too small."  We remodeled the guest bath 3 years ago.  It's got double sinks...but it's too small.  That's part of the reason why it pisses me off with her shower habits - We'll all need to get ready to go somewhere, and since she takes hours to get ready, she showers first, and uses most of the hot water.  Everyone else suffers.  The diva mentality runs strong in her.  She'll protest and not invite her boyfriend to family stuff because she's "embarrassed" at him having to sleep on the sofa in our house.
Click to expand...
The cat in your pic has bigger balls than you. ;) She has to use your master bathroom? JFC, tell her to use the guest bathroom or get a hotel room. We have family over time to time for holidays (have had 12 people including kids), but I've never heard any complaints about the size of a bathroom. We've got a little extra space (6 bedrooms + 3rd floor), so we can fit 3 families (one guest/one used as office with pullout) and can double up some kids, but still, she's got some big balls. Has she always been that way to your wife? Take your showers at the same time, screw her and let her run out of hot water. Do you all wait for her to finish? Just amazing that you'd even consider paying more for your SIL's visits. Do you remodel the guest bathroom for her as well?

 
Well, the cost difference on Home Depot between a Rheem 50 gallon electric and the one you linked to is about $1000.

 
stbugs said:
The cat in your pic has bigger balls than you. ;) She has to use your master bathroom? JFC, tell her to use the guest bathroom or get a hotel room. We have family over time to time for holidays (have had 12 people including kids), but I've never heard any complaints about the size of a bathroom. We've got a little extra space (6 bedrooms + 3rd floor), so we can fit 3 families (one guest/one used as office with pullout) and can double up some kids, but still, she's got some big balls. Has she always been that way to your wife? Take your showers at the same time, screw her and let her run out of hot water. Do you all wait for her to finish? Just amazing that you'd even consider paying more for your SIL's visits. Do you remodel the guest bathroom for her as well?
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Harsh!  ;)   But I totally get where you are coming from.  My in-laws are unique people.  "Guest comfort," has been a disproportionate driver of some of our home renovations, but honestly, we benefit too.  I put up with a lot of crap from them because I don't want to put my wife in an awkward spot.  I do draw the line sometimes (basement bedroom, some other odd "demands.").  I've told the SIL off before, and it only caused problems for my wife, not me.  They mostly leave me alone, but they put her in the middle, which isn't fair.  They (MIL/FIL) are very generous, awesome people with quirks.  The SIL is also a very nice person, but is still in school (dental school), and is just high maintenance to a level I've never seen before.  Very vain.  Always has been.  It's gotten worse in the last year or so.  She's started dating someone who's very well known back where they live (Pittsburgh), and she's spent a lot of time with him and his family, and I think the entitlement is starting to wear off on her. 

 
ChiefD said:
Well, the cost difference on Home Depot between a Rheem 50 gallon electric and the one you linked to is about $1000.
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Totally...but the installed cost is $1,400 difference, which means they'd charge $400 more to put in a larger tank when, from a labor perspective, it's the exact same amount of work.  That's 100% my issue.  Left a message to talk to them...waiting for a call back.

 
psychobillies said:
You can probably change the upper and lower elements and the thermostat yourself for around $30.  Unless your tank is in bad shape, it's worth a shot.  

Link
Click to expand...
I did this last night to buy us some more time to decide.  I figure worst case I just pull them back out and save them for the future.  They were cheap.  The old tank is a mess.  The old elements looked like coral reefs.  Given we just finished the basement, I don't want to risk a leak.  It's over 15 years old AND we have really hard water (or rather did until we installed a softener as part of the basement finishing)

 
Fat Nick said:
Totally...but the installed cost is $1,400 difference, which means they'd charge $400 more to put in a larger tank when, from a labor perspective, it's the exact same amount of work.  That's 100% my issue.  Left a message to talk to them...waiting for a call back.
Click to expand...
Was the old tank the same height as the new tank?

 
psychobillies said:
You can probably change the upper and lower elements and the thermostat yourself for around $30.  Unless your tank is in bad shape, it's worth a shot.  

Link
Click to expand...


Very much this, unless you're really looking to just spend money.  Chances are it's one of the elements - those are pretty straight up to replace.  Don't even need to drain the tank, just have a helper there with a makeshift stopper to hold the water back.  You'll leak a little water on removal and install, but not a huge amount.

 
Fat Nick said:
Harsh!  ;)   But I totally get where you are coming from.  My in-laws are unique people.  "Guest comfort," has been a disproportionate driver of some of our home renovations, but honestly, we benefit too.  I put up with a lot of crap from them because I don't want to put my wife in an awkward spot.  I do draw the line sometimes (basement bedroom, some other odd "demands.").  I've told the SIL off before, and it only caused problems for my wife, not me.  They mostly leave me alone, but they put her in the middle, which isn't fair.  They (MIL/FIL) are very generous, awesome people with quirks.  The SIL is also a very nice person, but is still in school (dental school), and is just high maintenance to a level I've never seen before.  Very vain.  Always has been.  It's gotten worse in the last year or so.  She's started dating someone who's very well known back where they live (Pittsburgh), and she's spent a lot of time with him and his family, and I think the entitlement is starting to wear off on her. 
Click to expand...
LOL, if she wants a downstairs bedroom, give her a general contractors # and tell her if she pays for it she can get it! I am assuming it's unfinished and she wouldn't be pillaging your man cave.

 
Fat Nick said:
I did this last night to buy us some more time to decide.  I figure worst case I just pull them back out and save them for the future.  They were cheap.  The old tank is a mess.  The old elements looked like coral reefs.  Given we just finished the basement, I don't want to risk a leak.  It's over 15 years old AND we have really hard water (or rather did until we installed a softener as part of the basement finishing)
Click to expand...
Another reason to get a tankless.

 
I'm pretty sure 9/10 posters clamoring for tankless don't even understand what that involves, and apparently at least one of you think it doesnt involve water at all. 

 
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