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Ghost Rider

Belichick > Brady

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Love him or hate him Billy B is the best. The man can prepare a team to play and has done it forever with a changing cast of players.

And I have to watch the inept Jim Caldwell every week who is the worst "in game" coach in the NFL. So bad the Lions hired a clock management coach to help him.

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19 hours ago, Da Guru said:

Love him or hate him Billy B is the best. The man can prepare a team to play and has done it forever with a changing cast of players.

And I have to watch the inept Jim Caldwell every week who is the worst "in game" coach in the NFL. So bad the Lions hired a clock management coach to help him.

Jon Fox says hi.

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Great coaches and great players go hand in hand in any professional sports. Rarely does one happen without the other. 

 

BB is great, no doubt about it, but he ain't this great without TB or the cast of FA guys that have gone to NE because they want to win. Also, the NE D was terrible for years, so this whole facing a BB defense is crazy is a bunch of hogwash without the talent that is being fielded. 

 

Talent makes great teams, coaching hopes along for the ride. I would say that talent evaluation/drafting is just as important as any other category in pro Football. 

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7 minutes ago, candian fantasy guy said:

Great coaches and great players go hand in hand in any professional sports. Rarely does one happen without the other. 

 

BB is great, no doubt about it, but he ain't this great without TB or the cast of FA guys that have gone to NE because they want to win. Also, the NE D was terrible for years, so this whole facing a BB defense is crazy is a bunch of hogwash without the talent that is being fielded. 

 

Talent makes great teams, coaching hopes along for the ride. I would say that talent evaluation/drafting is just as important as any other category in pro Football. 

The NE defense has finished top 10 in points allowed in 11 of Brady's 14 seasons as their QB (2001-2007, 2008-2015).  Of course, in a few of those seasons, they ranked poorly in yards allowed, but Belichick's D often is often of the "bend but don't break" variety, meaning they will give up yards, but force turnovers and/or find ways to not give up a lot of points. 

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Very, VERY small sample size.

There was the Matt Cassell season ... and 3 games this season.

If you ask me, I would say Belichick made Brady, not Brady made Belichick.

 ...but Brady has won boat-loads of games that other QB's would not have. There is a reason he was picked to lead the team over Bledsoe way back when.

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2 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

The NE defense has finished top 10 in points allowed in 11 of Brady's 14 seasons as their QB (2001-2007, 2008-2015).  Of course, in a few of those seasons, they ranked poorly in yards allowed, but Belichick's D often is often of the "bend but don't break" variety, meaning they will give up yards, but force turnovers and/or find ways to not give up a lot of points. 

I give BB LOTS of credit, what he has done with the NE franchise is very impressive. However, the eye test says that many of those D's were not very good despite the Top 10 in points per game you referenced. Stats often lie. 

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20 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

 

Edited by Bossman
Quoted the wrong post and my ####### Can't seem to undo this so I'll have to let it fly so I can move on.

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33 minutes ago, candian fantasy guy said:

Great coaches and great players go hand in hand in any professional sports. Rarely does one happen without the other. 

 

BB is great, no doubt about it, but he ain't this great without TB or the cast of FA guys that have gone to NE because they want to win. Also, the NE D was terrible for years, so this whole facing a BB defense is crazy is a bunch of hogwash without the talent that is being fielded. 

 

Talent makes great teams, coaching hopes along for the ride. I would say that talent evaluation/drafting is just as important as any other category in pro Football. 

 ... I would like to know which "years" you feel the NE defense was terrible under Belichick.

I don't even remember them being below average. Must be a different standard up there in Canada.

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22 hours ago, bostonfred said:

9 full games gabbert has played in san francisco

2259 11 7

36 206 2

Those same 9 games, rodgers

1963 13 6

28 197 3

GOAT

You can pick out a half season stretch like that for anyone.

First 8 games of 2013 for Brady

1824 9 6

5.9ypa 73qb rtng

22 18 0

Those same 8 games, Kaepernick

1608 9 5

8.2ypa 90qb rtng

49 294 3

 

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19 minutes ago, candian fantasy guy said:

I give BB LOTS of credit, what he has done with the NE franchise is very impressive. However, the eye test says that many of those D's were not very good despite the Top 10 in points per game you referenced. Stats often lie. 

... those pesky stats always getting in the way. Everyone knows the Canadian eye test is much more accurate (sorry, don't hate me).

Maybe you're remembering teams chucking the ball all over the place because they were down 21 points in the 3rd qtr. Circa 2007?

Other than that, we're watching two different teams ... or we just have very different opinions on what bad defense is (did you see the Bills vs. the Jets last Thursday?)

 

 

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This is such a garbage debate. The Pats are the epitome of the 'no one player' concept. BB pretty much invented it. Brady is important, but he's markedly more replaceable than BB. Is TB great? Sure. History (and insufferable Pats fans) will say he's one of the greatest of all time, but he'd be Carson Palmer without BB. 

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30 minutes ago, candian fantasy guy said:

I give BB LOTS of credit, what he has done with the NE franchise is very impressive. However, the eye test says that many of those D's were not very good despite the Top 10 in points per game you referenced. Stats often lie. 

Okay, but if we look at the losses in the Belichick/Brady era, there is only one you can put solely on the defense, the 2006 loss to the Colts in the AFCCG. 

2005: 27-13 to Denver (offense was terrible, and 7 of the Broncos points came from a 1-yard drive following the Champ Bailey return of the Brady INT)

2006: 38-34 to Indy (this one is on the D)

2007: 17-14 to NY Giants (offense scored 23 points under their season average; despite the defense giving up the late score, this one is all on the offense)

2009: 33-14 to Baltimore (the whole team was not good this day, but the offense was worse, committing a series of turnovers early that allowed the Ravens to build a 24-0 1st quarter lead, that admittedly was started by a long Ray Rice TD; otherwise, the D was good that day)

2010: 28-21 to NY Jets (final score is misleading, as the Patriots D played relatively well and the O did not, but the Jets got a late score after an onside kick was returned inside the 20 and the Patriots then scored a garbage TD with seconds left).  

2011: 21-17 to NY Giants (offense was bad for most of the game, except the end of the first half and beginning of the second, while the D played more than good enough to win)

2012: 28-13 to Baltimore (offense was shut out at home in the second half, while the defense eventually wore down allowing the Ravens to pull away and win convincingly)

2013: 26-16 to Denver (offense again was bad most of the day, until scoring two late meaningless TDs; defense gave up a ton of yards, but held the Broncos to enough field goals to where it could have been a game in the 4th had the offense played well)

2015: 20-18 to Denver (defense was just fine, allowing only 20 points, 7 of which came after an INT inside their own red zone; offense struggled mightily against the Broncos ferocious D). 

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9 minutes ago, Bossman said:

... those pesky stats always getting in the way. Everyone knows the Canadian eye test is much more accurate (sorry, don't hate me).

Maybe you're remembering teams chucking the ball all over the place because they were down 21 points in the 3rd qtr. Circa 2007?

Other than that, we're watching two different teams ... or we just have very different opinions on what bad defense is (did you see the Bills vs. the Jets last Thursday?)

 

 

 Pesky stats do indeed get in the way, it happens all the time. It screws up most conversations, especially on a message board. 

 

This year, the NE D seems to be rock solid, I'm not arguing that at all. 

 

Personally, I would say that the mostly bad Bills, Dolphins and Jets contributed largely to the point totals during this stretch of time. When matched up with better teams, the D always showed its true colours and had the offense bail them out. 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Okay, but if we look at the losses in the Belichick/Brady era, there is only one you can put solely on the defense, the 2006 loss to the Colts in the AFCCG. 

2005: 27-13 to Denver (offense was terrible, and 7 of the Broncos points came from a 1-yard drive following the Champ Bailey return of the Brady INT)

2006: 38-34 to Indy (this one is on the D)

2007: 17-14 to NY Giants (offense scored 23 points under their season average; despite the defense giving up the late score, this one is all on the offense)

2009: 33-14 to Baltimore (the whole team was not good this day, but the offense was worse, committing a series of turnovers early that allowed the Ravens to build a 24-0 1st quarter lead, that admittedly was started by a long Ray Rice TD; otherwise, the D was good that day)

2010: 28-21 to NY Jets (final score is misleading, as the Patriots D played relatively well and the O did not, but the Jets got a late score after an onside kick was returned inside the 20 and the Patriots then scored a garbage TD with seconds left).  

2011: 21-17 to NY Giants (offense was bad for most of the game, except the end of the first half and beginning of the second, while the D played more than good enough to win)

2012: 28-13 to Baltimore (offense was shut out at home in the second half, while the defense eventually wore down allowing the Ravens to pull away and win convincingly)

2013: 26-16 to Denver (offense again was bad most of the day, until scoring two late meaningless TDs; defense gave up a ton of yards, but held the Broncos to enough field goals to where it could have been a game in the 4th had the offense played well)

2015: 20-18 to Denver (defense was just fine, allowing only 20 points, 7 of which came after an INT inside their own red zone; offense struggled mightily against the Broncos ferocious D). 

Typically, this is what happens in post season games. 

 

I'm always way more impressed with the Pats ever changing weekly offensive game plan. Maybe that's on me and the reason why that I've missed out on watching that avg D all these years. 

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Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on McDaniels? Is he just a product of BB or does he have a big impact in those meetings and game planning?

 

I know he failed miserably as a HC, but maybe he just was not cut out for that role or maybe he was still just a little green behind the ears for a HC gig?

 

Will we talk about him in 10-15 years as a BB disciple?

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1 hour ago, FreeBaGeL said:

You can pick out a half season stretch like that for anyone.

Right, and in 2013 people said what if brady is done.  Others said give him a pass because he lost his top 3 targets.  We said the same thing about rodgers - it's probably just that jordy is out, cobb is hurt and adams sucks.  Now two games into the next year, jordy and cobb are ostensibly healthy and rodgers mechanics are off.  We know that brady rebounded and had another mvp consideration season.  Will rodgers do the same?  What if rodgers is done as an elite option?

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On 9/23/2016 at 7:54 AM, FF Ninja said:

Really? I am pretty sure Rodgers ran away with that title several years ago. His efficiency at the position is through the roof. He hasn't played as long or on as good of teams, but he's clearly the best QB we've seen in our generation.

Rodgers hasn't performed at this level for some time now.

If Brady had performed as Rodgers has over the same time period people in these forums would be saying, "he's not even in the top 20."

Don't get why Rodgers keeps getting a pass here.

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I think the play calling is a major problem in GB, but Rodgers definitely doesn't look like the same awesome QB he was prior to last year.  His YPA, which is often a telling QB stat, is terrible since October of last year. 

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1 hour ago, kyoun1e said:

Rodgers hasn't performed at this level for some time now.

If Brady had performed as Rodgers has over the same time period people in these forums would be saying, "he's not even in the top 20."

Don't get why Rodgers keeps getting a pass here.

I don't know how this argument is happening without Peyton Manning. guy has one bad season, and suddenly he was nothing special? I'd take Manning's career over Brady or Rodgers pretty easily. 2 Rings, and every major passing record, both career and single season.

Also, Brady>Rodgers.

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8 hours ago, bostonfred said:

Right, and in 2013 people said what if brady is done.  Others said give him a pass because he lost his top 3 targets.  We said the same thing about rodgers - it's probably just that jordy is out, cobb is hurt and adams sucks.  Now two games into the next year, jordy and cobb are ostensibly healthy and rodgers mechanics are off.  We know that brady rebounded and had another mvp consideration season.  Will rodgers do the same?  What if rodgers is done as an elite option?

He eventually rebounded.  Two games into the next season for Brady he had a YPA of 5.6, a QB rating in the 70's, and had yet to throw for 400 yards total.  Again, no different so far.  Rodgers hasn't hit his way out of the slump yet but he's still only just now approaching being as far into it as Brady was when he finally shook it off.

Edited by FreeBaGeL

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7 hours ago, kyoun1e said:

Rodgers hasn't performed at this level for some time now.

If Brady had performed as Rodgers has over the same time period people in these forums would be saying, "he's not even in the top 20."

Don't get why Rodgers keeps getting a pass here.

Brady HAS performed that way.  Rodgers' "bad" season was statistically better than almost half of Brady's.

In fact, it was pretty similar to Brady's career average over a 16 game stretch, which shows just how crazy good Rodgers' numbers typically are that an outlier bad season for him is the virtual exact equivalent to one of the other GOAT's career average.

Edited by FreeBaGeL
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When you see some of the bonehead decisions made by coaching staffs of really good NFL teams - Quinn ####ting the bad last week with the XP in the 4th quarter and then that awful play calling at the end yesterday; the Steelers coaching staff being clueless at the end of the game in December after the Jesse James play was overturned; etc - it just shows how much better Belichick and his staff are than every other coaching staff in the league.  Put their current roster in the hands of just about any other NFL head coach and they would have been lucky to be playing this weekend. 

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10 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

When you see some of the bonehead decisions made by coaching staffs of really good NFL teams - Quinn ####ting the bad last week with the XP in the 4th quarter and then that awful play calling at the end yesterday; the Steelers coaching staff being clueless at the end of the game in December after the Jesse James play was overturned; etc - it just shows how much better Belichick and his staff are than every other coaching staff in the league.  Put their current roster in the hands of just about any other NFL head coach and they would have been lucky to be playing this weekend. 

Completely agree.  They’re head and shoulders above every other team when it comes to coaching.  And that comes straight from Belichick.  When assistant coaches leave NE, they don’t have near the level of success anywhere else.  It’s truly a marvel how prepared Belichick is every single year.  He knows all the rules and how to use them to his advantage.  He knows how to gameplam against anyone.  He never gets too down when the situation looks dire and he always keeps the foot on the pedal.  Amazing.

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On 9/24/2016 at 8:09 AM, Dondante said:

This is such a garbage debate. The Pats are the epitome of the 'no one player' concept. BB pretty much invented it. Brady is important, but he's markedly more replaceable than BB. Is TB great? Sure. History (and insufferable Pats fans) will say he's one of the greatest of all time, but he'd be Carson Palmer without BB. 

very true..BB is better, but the overall coaching staff is very good..they can't stand alone by themselves without BB ..not Weiss, or O'Brien, or McD, Crennel, etc..none have done anything outside of earshot of BB..

can TB win games without these coaches?

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2 minutes ago, Tanner9919 said:

very true..BB is better, but the overall coaching staff is very good..they can't stand alone by themselves without BB ..not Weiss, or O'Brien, or McD, Crennel, etc..none have done anything outside of earshot of BB..

can TB win games without these coaches?

We'll likely never know. 

On the flip side, we've seen Belichick go 11-5 with Matt freaking Cassel.  We saw him start 3-1 last year with Jacoby Brissett playing the majority of snaps in those four games at QB. 

It goes without saying that neither Belichick nor Brady have 5 rings without the other in NE, but take them away from each other and I think Belichick is far more likely to have been a multiple ring-winning SB head coach than Brady would have been to win multiple rings as a starting QB. 

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Why do we even discuss this?  Might as well start threads about Walsh and Montana and Young, or Knoll and Bradshaw, or Lombardi and Starr, or Landry and Staubach, or Shula and Marino.  Better yet, just anoint Elway.  I don't recall him having such a renowned coach.  Or Unitas if you don't hold Weeb Ewbank in high regards.

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18 hours ago, JohnnyU said:

Why do we even discuss this?  Might as well start threads about Walsh and Montana and Young, or Knoll and Bradshaw, or Lombardi and Starr, or Landry and Staubach, or Shula and Marino.  Better yet, just anoint Elway.  I don't recall him having such a renowned coach.  Or Unitas if you don't hold Weeb Ewbank in high regards.

Its a fun, if pointless debate to assign value to things that are so intertwined. People, especially me, like to pick apart why things happen, and who is most responsible for it, especially when it comes to such a high level of success.

For the record I'd say: Belichick>Brady, Walsh=Montana, Noll>Bradshaw, Lombardi>Starr, Landry>Staubach, Marino>Shula, Shanahan>Elway, Unitas>Ewbank.

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On 1/15/2018 at 8:30 AM, travdogg said:

Its a fun, if pointless debate to assign value to things that are so intertwined. People, especially me, like to pick apart why things happen, and who is most responsible for it, especially when it comes to such a high level of success.

For the record I'd say: Belichick>Brady, Walsh=Montana, Noll>Bradshaw, Lombardi>Starr, Landry>Staubach, Marino>Shula, Shanahan>Elway, Unitas>Ewbank.

Belichick has said his success is due to the players he has had. The players perform on game day. I'm happy Belichick has Brady and Walsh had Montana. I'm thankful both had fabulous organizations and so many coaches and players that all contributed to their success. 

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I love how everyone loves to point out the 11 - 5 without Brady in 08 and the 3 - 1 with JG and Brissett, but everyone forgets that Bill was 6 and 14 until Bledsoe got hurt and Brady took over. For the record they are both the best of all time.

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On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 0:07 PM, Ghost Rider said:

We'll likely never know. 

On the flip side, we've seen Belichick go 11-5 with Matt freaking Cassel.  We saw him start 3-1 last year with Jacoby Brissett playing the majority of snaps in those four games at QB. 

It goes without saying that neither Belichick nor Brady have 5 rings without the other in NE, but take them away from each other and I think Belichick is far more likely to have been a multiple ring-winning SB head coach than Brady would have been to win multiple rings as a starting QB. 

Those were 2 of the best non QB teams that the Patriots have fielded.  The 3-1 team was 11-1 with Brady (and by the way Jimmy G played 1 full game (win) and had them up 24-0 in the 2nd and they barely held on to finish 31-24 (win).  So it's hard to give credit to Brissett for the Dolphins win since the Pats were outscored by 17 in the half he played).  The 11-5 team was pretty much the same personnel from that 2007 team.  Cassel wasn't a total scrub either he went on to start and additional 66 games over the next 8 years and went a similar 10-5 with the Andy Reid coaching him in 2010.  Much better than your average backup QB (although worse than your average starter).

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1 hour ago, msudaisy26 said:

I love how everyone loves to point out the 11 - 5 without Brady in 08 and the 3 - 1 with JG and Brissett, but everyone forgets that Bill was 6 and 14 until Bledsoe got hurt and Brady took over. For the record they are both the best of all time.

Maybe that tells you how crappy Bledsoe was.

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1 minute ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Maybe that tells you how crappy Bledsoe was.

:lmao:

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That's why Id like to see Belichick move on from the warm embrace of TB12 and the pats organization. Is it The Hoodie or The QB? We might find out if they'd just take a break from each other. It may just be the perfect storm of the both of them that makes it all work. I think we may never know. If this was high school we could hack TB's account and send him nasty pics of Hoodie cheating on him with Jimmy G. Sigh...not to be.

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On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 6:32 AM, Ghost Rider said:

When it comes to winning rings, especially multiple ones, a great QB absolutely needs a top level coach, otherwise he is Philip Rivers (no rings) or Aaron Rodgers (only one ring). 

Marino/Shula is an interesting combo.  Shula was still pretty young (53 when he got Marino) and paired with the leader of pretty much every passing stat when he retired..  Tomlin/Roethlisberger (they did win a ring) might be another many years from now since Tomlin has a shot at being the wins leader 30 years from now if the Steelers stick with him and stay successful.

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On 1/14/2018 at 2:07 PM, Ghost Rider said:

We'll likely never know. 

On the flip side, we've seen Belichick go 11-5 with Matt freaking Cassel.  We saw him start 3-1 last year with Jacoby Brissett playing the majority of snaps in those four games at QB. 

It goes without saying that neither Belichick nor Brady have 5 rings without the other in NE, but take them away from each other and I think Belichick is far more likely to have been a multiple ring-winning SB head coach than Brady would have been to win multiple rings as a starting QB. 

BB & TB are joined at the hip no doubt and not sure that I disagree with your assessment on who would have likely won more.

However, though I understand the narrative quite well, ftr, yes NE won 11 games with Cassel (vs 18 with Brady the year b4) but worth noting Cassel also won 10 with KC. It would also be MUCH more accurate (IE fair) to say NE went 3-1 with Jimmy going 2-0 and Jacoby going 1-1. The same jimmy who went 5-0 with the previously 1-10 Niners, I know it doesn't fit the narrative but I think it is a bit more fair.

I'll address one of your other posts in this thread (the 1 I intended to reply to) as well by simply saying pretending Rodgers would have been as good or better than Brady with a coach like BB is one thing (I disagree, but at least u can make an argument) but lumping Rivers in there with the 2 of them is kinda silly imho. Rivers is a good not great qb and I don't think he belongs in the same conversation imho.

 

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2 hours ago, Niles Standish said:

Marino/Shula is an interesting combo.  Shula was still pretty young (53 when he got Marino) and paired with the leader of pretty much every passing stat when he retired..  Tomlin/Roethlisberger (they did win a ring) might be another many years from now since Tomlin has a shot at being the wins leader 30 years from now if the Steelers stick with him and stay successful.

Tomlin has no shot once Ben leaves, he would have to inherit another HOF Qb, I don't see that happening.  Tomlin will be fired in 6 years after Ben retires.  Any other team it would be 1 year.

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15 hours ago, Niles Standish said:

Those were 2 of the best non QB teams that the Patriots have fielded.  The 3-1 team was 11-1 with Brady (and by the way Jimmy G played 1 full game (win) and had them up 24-0 in the 2nd and they barely held on to finish 31-24 (win).  So it's hard to give credit to Brissett for the Dolphins win since the Pats were outscored by 17 in the half he played).  The 11-5 team was pretty much the same personnel from that 2007 team.  Cassel wasn't a total scrub either he went on to start and additional 66 games over the next 8 years and went a similar 10-5 with the Andy Reid coaching him in 2010.  Much better than your average backup QB (although worse than your average starter).

Todd Haley

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9 hours ago, bucksoh said:

Tomlin has no shot once Ben leaves, he would have to inherit another HOF Qb, I don't see that happening.  Tomlin will be fired in 6 years after Ben retires.  Any other team it would be 1 year.

I know.  The Steelers philosophy of sticking with the same coach for a long period has really failed.  This franchise has just been a wasteland under Noll, Cowher and Tomlin       :unsure:

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8 hours ago, zftcg said:

Todd Haley

Much worse.  Reid is a pretty top end coach IMO.  Haley less so (at least as HC).

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On 1/14/2018 at 0:21 PM, JohnnyU said:

Why do we even discuss this?  Might as well start threads about Walsh and Montana and Young, or Knoll and Bradshaw, or Lombardi and Starr, or Landry and Staubach, or Shula and Marino.  Better yet, just anoint Elway.  I don't recall him having such a renowned coach.  Or Unitas if you don't hold Weeb Ewbank in high regards.

Belichick > Brady

Montana > Young > Walsh

Noll >> Bradshaw

Lombardi > Starr

Staubach > Landry

Shula > Marino

Elway > Shanahan

Unitas >> Ewbank

Edited by Just Win Baby
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17 hours ago, Niles Standish said:

Much worse.  Reid is a pretty top end coach IMO.  Haley less so (at least as HC).

That whole season was smoke and mirrors. It was in the days before quantitative writers like Schatz, Barnwell and Clay had really broken through to explain concepts like regression to the mean, Pythagorean Expectation and turnover luck, but I remember it being really obvious at the time that KC wasn't a particularly good team and that their success wasn't sustainable. And sure enough, the following season they returned to mediocrity.

Edited by zftcg

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On 2/1/2018 at 9:49 AM, fred_1_15301 said:

I know.  The Steelers philosophy of sticking with the same coach for a long period has really failed.  This franchise has just been a wasteland under Noll, Cowher and Tomlin       :unsure:

Seriously. If they want to win, they'll follow the Browns' example and turn over their coach/GM every year or two. How can you expect to have success unless you're constantly hitting the reset button?

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On 1/31/2018 at 4:44 PM, msudaisy26 said:

I love how everyone loves to point out the 11 - 5 without Brady in 08 and the 3 - 1 with JG and Brissett, but everyone forgets that Bill was 6 and 14 until Bledsoe got hurt and Brady took over. For the record they are both the best of all time.

Brady taking over and the team starting to win was the catalyst that helped Belichick’s system take root.

 

This debate is a problem because both men helped each other evolve into the great contributer they are now.  In NE we loved both early on and people have been debating if one or the other is the GOAT at what they do since 2007.  They’re both great, and that’s good enough for me.

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