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Baseball rule question - Balk? (1 Viewer)

Don't Noonan

Don't Noonan

Footballguy
I coach an 11u club baseball team and we had a tournament this past weekend.  We were in the field and with 2 outs and a runner on 2nd base.  Our pitcher was in the stretch and came set.  The runner on 2nd took off towards 3rd base.  I yelled to the pitcher to step off.  Our pitcher (right handed)  lifted his left leg and stepped toward 3rd and threw out the runner at 3rd base.  The umpire in the field called the runner out.  The 3rd base coach asked for clarification if it was a balk.  He consulted with the home plate umpire and they called a balk.  I went out to talk with them and they said he needed to step off first.  I explained that he does not need to step off for an inside move and that the runner was already halfway to 3rd.  Also, a balk is something called immediately and not changed after the fact.  Of course the next pitch was a passed ball and the runner scored and we lost by 1.

I don't believe it was a balk but does anyone know the rule on this?

 
Balk is called when you motion towards the plate and throw to a base instead.  That's the most common balk.  I don't know this "step off" requirement they are talking about.

 
It depends on the step.  If his leg/foot broke the plane of the pitching rubber, then he must go home with the pitch.  If the foot remained parallel with the rubber, then he could throw to third without balking.

 
20 year umpire. 

As you described the play it was not a balk.  The pitcher is  throw to any base as long as it is attempt to retire a runner. He is not required to step off the backside of the rubber. He cannot throw to a base that has no imminent play.  The changing of the call from no balk to balk is irrelevant . 

 
bro1ncos said:
20 year umpire. 

As you described the play it was not a balk.  The pitcher is  throw to any base as long as it is attempt to retire a runner. He is not required to step off the backside of the rubber. He cannot throw to a base that has no imminent play.  The changing of the call from no balk to balk is irrelevant . 
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The umpire said he couldn't throw to 3rd because the runner was at 2nd.  I told him that the runner was stealing 3rd and that my pitcher should be allowed to throw to 3rd.  He disagreed.  Thank you for clarification. 

 
Prince Myshkin said:
It depends on the step.  If his leg/foot broke the plane of the pitching rubber, then he must go home with the pitch.  If the foot remained parallel with the rubber, then he could throw to third without balking.
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He stepped directly towards 3rd and made the throw when he saw the runner running to 3rd.

 
Seems odd that a runner on second would make a move to third when the pitcher hasnt even come close to starting his delivery. 

 
Don't Noonan said:
The umpire said he couldn't throw to 3rd because the runner was at 2nd.  I told him that the runner was stealing 3rd and that my pitcher should be allowed to throw to 3rd.  He disagreed.  Thank you for clarification. 
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This is why all Coaches should have their rules books with them.  Umps dont have to be right if you cant show them they are wrong.

 
I used to think this was the rule as well (no step off=balk). Then when i was like 16, I got stuck in a run down because someone pulled this same move.

Not a balk.

 
Don't Noonan said:
The umpire said he couldn't throw to 3rd because the runner was at 2nd.  I told him that the runner was stealing 3rd and that my pitcher should be allowed to throw to 3rd.  He disagreed.  Thank you for clarification. 
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So your guy was supposed to throw to 2nd so the SS could then throw it to third?  Yeah, that makes sense.

 
bro1ncos said:
Doing this during a game is a good way to be ejected.
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Most likely. Umpires have some of the thinnest skin out there. In fact, you can show them they are wrong and they will rarely do the right thing and change the call. Too much pride for the majority of them from my experience.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Most likely. Umpires have some of the thinnest skin out there. In fact, you can show them they are wrong and they will rarely do the right thing and change the call. Too much pride for the majority of them from my experience.
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Disagree with the "majority" portion of your statement. Very few of the umpires in my experience fear doing the right thing. They are out there trying to do their best for all teams and players, but yes we screw up sometimes. Believe it or not, we don't care who wins the game.

Just like saying the "majority" of coaches below the college level have little understanding of the rule book, but they believe they know way more than anyone else on the field.

 
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I actually agree about that coach comment. 

FWIW, I don't know that I've ever seen an umpire admit he was wrong and change the call. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
I actually agree about that coach comment. 

FWIW, I don't know that I've ever seen an umpire admit he was wrong and change the call. 
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Really? You have never seen umpires get together and change a call? I find this hard to believe from anyone that has watched more than a dozen baseball or softball games. I see officials in all sports get together and adjust calls. We want to get it right and I believe we do the vast majority of the time.

 
I'm talking younger than high school. Just one umpire.

I don't want to argue about this, but you basically said it yourself; showing an umpire he's wrong will likely get you ejected. I can't prove my point any better than that. 

 
bro1ncos said:
Really? You have never seen umpires get together and change a call? I find this hard to believe from anyone that has watched more than a dozen baseball or softball games. I see officials in all sports get together and adjust calls. We want to get it right and I believe we do the vast majority of the time.
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That is how it works at higher levels. Not so much 12 and under. Especially when the umpire is 12 too. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
I'm talking younger than high school. Just one umpire.

I don't want to argue about this, but you basically said it yourself; showing an umpire he's wrong will likely get you ejected. I can't prove my point any better than that. 
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Agreed. I don't want to argue either.

Showing an umpire s/he is wrong won't/shouldn't get you ejected. Showing an umpire up will. Bringing a rule book out onto the field does just that.

 
i've seen my son's coach bring a rule book onto the field to dispute an ump's ruling. it actually tends to calm things down, versus a coach just yelling/arguing.

 
oso diablo said:
i've seen my son's coach bring a rule book onto the field to dispute an ump's ruling. it actually tends to calm things down, versus a coach just yelling/arguing.
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Yeah, I was wondering about this. I think a rulebook brings clarification rather than asininity, which is what we should all be looking for.  

 
There is an easy way to take umpire judgement out of this particular equation - the pitcher should step off. I agree that it should not have been a balk, but if the pitcher had reacted properly (by stepping off), he'd have thrown the runner out at 3rd and the inning would be over with no discussion at all. You yelled "step off" but your pitcher didn't do that and it cost you. At that age group, pitchers are still learning "when in doubt, step off".

 
bro1ncos said:
Agreed. I don't want to argue either.

Showing an umpire s/he is wrong won't/shouldn't get you ejected. Showing an umpire up will. Bringing a rule book out onto the field does just that.
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How exactly does one show the Umpire s/he is wrong if you shouldn't bring a rule book out onto the field?  By your definition above, there is no way to "show" an umpire is wrong without "showing them up".

I do scorekeeping and stats for my son's team and I always have the PDF copy of the league rules with me on my iPad.  If something is under question, I can jump right to it and have it ready for the coach.  We ran into a similar Balk issue where the other team's coach was the one yelling at our pitcher and instigating the balk.  The Umpire never bothered to look up the rules noting the coach was out of line.  Since that time, I have always kept the rules with me to help protect the kids from situations like these.  

 
Peak said:
How exactly does one show the Umpire s/he is wrong if you shouldn't bring a rule book out onto the field?  By your definition above, there is no way to "show" an umpire is wrong without "showing them up".

I do scorekeeping and stats for my son's team and I always have the PDF copy of the league rules with me on my iPad.  If something is under question, I can jump right to it and have it ready for the coach.  We ran into a similar Balk issue where the other team's coach was the one yelling at our pitcher and instigating the balk.  The Umpire never bothered to look up the rules noting the coach was out of line.  Since that time, I have always kept the rules with me to help protect the kids from situations like these.  
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I'm am talking about bringing a rulebook onto the field and making a scene to disrupt a game. Me personally, if a head coach talks in a professional manner and shows me these local league rules off to the side then I will learn something.

No umpire is perfect, just like no player or coach is perfect. We screw things up. That is part of a baseball game, just like when a player drops a ball or a coach makes a coaching error. Sometimes players, coaches, or umpires get things wrong in a game and there is no going back and correcting it. I just wish more people understood that I am out there trying my best and trying to get things right. We don't always do that and that human factor has always been a part of sports. There is never an instance in a baseball game that one call, one error, or on bad move by a coach is the only factor that causes a team to win or lose a game. There are hundreds of pitches, dozens of batted balls and 6+ innings that all affect the game. 

 
Don't Noonan said:
We were in the field and with 2 outs and a runner on 2nd base.  Our pitcher was in the stretch and came set.  The runner on 2nd took off towards 3rd base.
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This is the odd part and possibly why it presented a confusing situation. In a close game with two outs, why would a runner take off for 3rd with the pitcher set?

 
I was a catcher all the way through high school and started managing adult league while I was in college.  I moved on to college summer league for about ten years after that.  I have helped other teams as a pitching coach.  Never paid though, I like to give back.  

Once I had my son, I turned to youth coaching full time.  We started with baseball of course, basketball, and now I have been running our competitive soccer club for the last few years.  

My point in all of this is I have been heavily involved in sports for about thirty five years.  I wanted to establish that so that this doesn't come off as a trolling haymaker, just my true feelings after many years.  

Roughly 75% of the umpires I have come across in my life are bullies on the field. Those umps arrive with chips on their shoulders and act like prison guards enforcing some sort of zero tolerance policy.  Instead of just being part of the game while collecting their hefty pays, they usually will find away to make it about them.  

They expect everyone to kiss their feet and not "disrespect them." They always reminded me of police officers in that regard.   The problem with that logic is police officers are actually fighting crime and dealing with dirt bags.  The umps wipe off the plate with their little brush, and complain about the heat, but they do nothing to demand the treatment they expect from everyone involved in the game.  25% of the umps are good guys, who are in shape, but don't take it themselves too serious. 

Ironically I think that 75% of the hoop refs are great when it comes to that stuff and soccer refs are about the same.  I'm not sure why the baseball umps all think they are god.

 For full disclosure, I have never been given a warning or thrown out of a game as a player or manager.  I managed over 300 college summer league games and probably 30-50 youth.  I played in hundreds and never argued with an ump either.  I don't have a personal vendetta against umps, I just think most are way to arrogant and I wish it would change.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
This is the odd part and possibly why it presented a confusing situation. In a close game with two outs, why would a runner take off for 3rd with the pitcher set?
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At the time, maybe 4th inning,  we were down by 4 or 5 runs.  I have no idea why the runner took off early, maybe to get a good jump, maybe it was to try and cause a balk?  All I know is he clearly took off early.  

I printed out the mlb rules that the league uses that shows this was clearly not a balk.  I am hoping that if we see this umpire again he apologizes to me and found out he was wrong.  I will have the rule with me if he persists that he was correct.

 
Don't Noonan said:
At the time, maybe 4th inning,  we were down by 4 or 5 runs.  I have no idea why the runner took off early, maybe to get a good jump, maybe it was to try and cause a balk?  All I know is he clearly took off early.  

I printed out the mlb rules that the league uses that shows this was clearly not a balk.  I am hoping that if we see this umpire again he apologizes to me and found out he was wrong.  I will have the rule with me if he persists that he was correct.
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It's a game.  You don't deserve an apology.   That's almost as bad as the bully umps.  Come on now.  They made a mistake, that's not the only reason you lost.

 
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bro1ncos said:
Disagree with the "majority" portion of your statement. Very few of the umpires in my experience fear doing the right thing. They are out there trying to do their best for all teams and players, but yes we screw up sometimes. Believe it or not, we don't care who wins the game.

Just like saying the "majority" of coaches below the college level have little understanding of the rule book, but they believe they know way more than anyone else on the field.
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I umped in Little and Senior Leagues and depending on who is umping (a committed volunteer vs. someone/anyone pulled out of the stands) you can get either a hard case or a wimp. It makes it tough when you're not sure what you're going to get on a crew.

There are also coaches who attempt to use the rule book as a bludgeon on the ump and/or the other coach. I've had guys who wanted to call a balk on every pitch and those who just didn't care about it.

TL;DR: YMMV

 
PIK95 said:
It's a game.  You don't deserve an apology.   That's almost as bad as the bully umps.  Come on now.  They made a mistake, that's not the only reason you lost.
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If I was an umpire and overturned a call on the field to a balk, I would feel terrible if I found out I was incorrect.   I would definitely apologize the next time I saw the  coach.  I would have no hard feelings and thank him if he does so.

 
Don't Noonan said:
I printed out the mlb rules that the league uses that shows this was clearly not a balk.  I am hoping that if we see this umpire again he apologizes to me and found out he was wrong.  I will have the rule with me if he persists that he was correct.
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Why?

Are you certain you were playing under MLB rules or were you playing under NFHS rules or were you playing under an adaptation of one of those rule sets with exceptions to the rules?

I am willing to bet that if this umpire is working an 11U travel ball game he will barely remember the game or the play. He probably worked 2-4 games that day if it was a tournament.

I work 200+ games a year and try to have a very short term memory on any game I work. It is this type of things that irritate me more than anything. Quit rehashing something that happened 2-3 innings ago, much less something that happened weeks ago.

 
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Don't Noonan said:
At the time, maybe 4th inning,  we were down by 4 or 5 runs.  I have no idea why the runner took off early, maybe to get a good jump, maybe it was to try and cause a balk?  All I know is he clearly took off early.  

I printed out the mlb rules that the league uses that shows this was clearly not a balk.  I am hoping that if we see this umpire again he apologizes to me and found out he was wrong.  I will have the rule with me if he persists that he was correct.
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Is it possible to go through the sanctioning body to get word to the umpires about how to call this play correctly in the future or is confronting the ump while trying to force an apology the only way to get your point across?

 
Don't Noonan said:
If I was an umpire and overturned a call on the field to a balk, I would feel terrible if I found out I was incorrect.   I would definitely apologize the next time I saw the  coach.  I would have no hard feelings and thank him if he does so.
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I think you might be taking this a little too seriously.

 
I coached and reffed soccer for several years.  I never thought to apologize for a missed call nor expected a ref to do it either.

 
bro1ncos said:
Showing an umpire s/he is wrong won't/shouldn't get you ejected. Showing an umpire up will. Bringing a rule book out onto the field does just that.
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"He showed the umpire up" is the dumbest excuse for ejecting somebody in the world. Any official who would do that over being proven wrong by a coach (respectfully) showing the official the rule in question shouldn't be officiating anything.

 
bro1ncos said:
Why?

Are you certain you were playing under MLB rules or were you playing under NFHS rules or were you playing under an adaptation of one of those rule sets with exceptions to the rules?

I am willing to bet that if this umpire is working an 11U travel ball game he will barely remember the game or the play. He probably worked 2-4 games that day if it was a tournament.

I work 200+ games a year and try to have a very short term memory on any game I work. It is this type of things that irritate me more than anything. Quit rehashing something that happened 2-3 innings ago, much less something that happened weeks ago.
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While I get what you are saying, as far as being exposed to many games, and needing to have a short memory in order to be able to ump with a clear mind.  However, I would think that if you take your craft seriously, you would like to know when you are interpreting the rules incorrectly.

I coach different sports, but mainly basketball.  Nothing drives me more crazy than when there is a rule change, but none of the refs call it correctly.  It gives me the impression they are just there for a paycheck, and not interested in learning anything but just want to do it the way they have been doing it forever, since that is easier than putting forth the effort it takes to keep up with current rules.

Generally in youth sports, the ups/refs are the only ones involved that are getting paid, so I tend to have a higher expectation of their conduct than the other parties.

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
"He showed the umpire up" is the dumbest excuse for ejecting somebody in the world. Any official who would do that over being proven wrong by a coach (respectfully) showing the official the rule in question shouldn't be officiating anything.
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As you said doing it respectfully shouldn't get you ejected and doing it respectfully isn't showing an official up. Showing an umpire up is when you do it disrespectfully and this is how coaches handle it many times.

 
Pitcher in a JV game this summer had a runner on first.  Came set, runner breaks for 2b, pitcher turns and fires to 2B - auto balk call?  I disagreed with the call because the runner was attempting to steal 2B.  But....technically it was probably the right call, had the pitcher disengaged from the rubber it probably would not have been a balk.

 
For the record I try to treat everyone on the field with respect. I ask and listen to the head coach's first name. I don't call him "Coach" during the game. When I am working the plate, I make sure to know the catcher's name and I use his name anytime I am talking with him. I do this at all levels I umpire (10u-college games).

In the same vein, I have much more respect for a coach that calls me by my first name (which I tell them at the plate conference) and doesn't regularly call me "blue". Not saying I hold it against a coach or player calling me "Blue" because I know that typically comes with the territory.

 
Bull Dozier said:
While I get what you are saying, as far as being exposed to many games, and needing to have a short memory in order to be able to ump with a clear mind.  However, I would think that if you take your craft seriously, you would like to know when you are interpreting the rules incorrectly.

Generally in youth sports, the ups/refs are the only ones involved that are getting paid, so I tend to have a higher expectation of their conduct than the other parties.
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Only speaking for me personally. Any game that I work that has a play that causes a question or that my partner(s) and I get together, I will as soon as possible after the game when I get back to the car I will look the rule up to either confirm or contradict the ruling I made on the field.

I completely understand that there are a lot of umpires out there in the world and many of you describe the bad ones. But, I still will assert that greater than 90% are out there still trying their best and trying to get better with every game. They are not out there to "screw" any team.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
I actually agree about that coach comment. 

FWIW, I don't know that I've ever seen an umpire admit he was wrong and change the call. 
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lol, you realize that in this very thread, the OP said that the ump changed the call?  He just changed it from the right call to the wrong call.

 
bro1ncos said:
Only speaking for me personally. Any game that I work that has a play that causes a question or that my partner(s) and I get together, I will as soon as possible after the game when I get back to the car I will look the rule up to either confirm or contradict the ruling I made on the field.

I completely understand that there are a lot of umpires out there in the world and many of you describe the bad ones. But, I still will assert that greater than 90% are out there still trying their best and trying to get better with every game. They are not out there to "screw" any team.
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I'm not sure of the percentage, I'd hesitate to go as high as 90%, but that's probably due to the fact that most of the refs in the meaty middle of the bell curve of quality, I don't remember.  There is a small number at that top who are great, really know what they are doing, and there is no question who is in charge of the game (you can tell they know what they are doing, don't put up with any crap, but also don't take anything personal).  The ones at the other end of the spectrum stick out in my mind because every time they blow a call, it goes against my team.  OK, that last part might be sarcasm.

 
spOOfy said:
lol, you realize that in this very thread, the OP said that the ump changed the call?  He just changed it from the right call to the wrong call.
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I believe I stated that I was referring to solo umpires, not those with a partner. 

 
I saw an interesting call in a game the other day, that I cannot for the life of me find clear rules for.  Situation; bases empty, pitcher pitching from the stretch.  Pitcher does not come to a complete stop.  Mid pitch, umpire yells "dead ball, balk!"  Pitcher finishes the throw, batter swings and fouls ball off.  Ump awards batter 1st base.  Explanation; count was full, bases empty balk results in ball added to count, ball four, batter gets first base.  Opposing coach contends no balk can be called with bases empty.  Umpire clarifies "if a pitcher is pitching from the stretch, they must come to a complete stop if bases empty or not.  Otherwise it is an illegal pitch, and a ball is added to count."

Google has told me both that in no circumstance is a balk called with bases empty, but I see some online rule books stating pitcher must come to a rest in the stretch, bases empty or not.

FTR, game is being played under NHSF rules.  I'm ordering my rule book tonight, as this is the first time I've seen this one called.  Any umps here know this one?

 
Bull Dozier said:
I saw an interesting call in a game the other day, that I cannot for the life of me find clear rules for.  Situation; bases empty, pitcher pitching from the stretch.  Pitcher does not come to a complete stop.  Mid pitch, umpire yells "dead ball, balk!"  Pitcher finishes the throw, batter swings and fouls ball off.  Ump awards batter 1st base.  Explanation; count was full, bases empty balk results in ball added to count, ball four, batter gets first base.  Opposing coach contends no balk can be called with bases empty.  Umpire clarifies "if a pitcher is pitching from the stretch, they must come to a complete stop if bases empty or not.  Otherwise it is an illegal pitch, and a ball is added to count."

Google has told me both that in no circumstance is a balk called with bases empty, but I see some online rule books stating pitcher must come to a rest in the stretch, bases empty or not.

FTR, game is being played under NHSF rules.  I'm ordering my rule book tonight, as this is the first time I've seen this one called.  Any umps here know this one?
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hmm I don't know for sure. But a balk can be called if bases empty.   For example - you you are on the mound a drop the ball, it's a balk and a ball is added.

I didn't think you had to come to rest in a stretch with no one on though.  So I guess I don't know :lol:  

 
belljr said:
hmm I don't know for sure. But a balk can be called if bases empty.   For example - you you are on the mound a drop the ball, it's a balk and a ball is added.

I didn't think you had to come to rest in a stretch with no one on though.  So I guess I don't know :lol:  
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Thanks for clearing that up!

j/k ;)  

 
bro1ncos said:
Agreed. I don't want to argue either.

Showing an umpire s/he is wrong won't/shouldn't get you ejected. Showing an umpire up will. Bringing a rule book out onto the field does just that.
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I was actually on your side until this comment.  If you got the rule wrong why does it matter whether a coach is explaining and backing up their explanation with the rule book?  

 
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