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Edited by Hot Sauce Guy
*person has nothing to contribute, why bother engaging

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4 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I honestly don’t know why anyone would admit to domestic battery of a pregnant women If they weren’t guilty of it, no.

so weird that this keeps happening to Hill, too - almost like it fits the exact same pattern of all domestic abusers. 

Very generous of you to give Hill the benefit of the doubt again & again though. The women were all lying, Hill was framed, but thought his best bet was to plead guilty to hitting & choking a pregnant woman? :o

I tend to be less generous. I believe in Occam’s Razor. The simplest explanation is probably correct. 

Also

  “When people show you who they are, believe them.”

~Dr. Maya Angelou

 

If you got pulled over for doing 100 in a 55 and your lawyer got it changed to a non-moving violation with no points on your record but a big fine, would you take it so your insurance wouldn't go up or get points on your license? Same premise with a much more serious allegation. I don't understand why people find it so hard to believe this happens every day in the legal system but aren't open to the possibility it could have happened here. He had the choice to fight it with a public defender and possibly face jail time and ruin his career OR plead guilty (and yes that means you admit doing it in court) and get probation with the charge later expunged.

You (hopefully) have never faced jail time. You (likely) have never had a job that you could lose that would pay you $20m a year.

I am not saying whether he did or didn't do anything but it seems disingenuous to me when anyone says they cant understand how anyone would plead if they were innocent.

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6 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’m well aware it’s two different women. 

I specifically said he has a history of domestic violence.

but please do continue embarrassing yourself by attempting to project. 🙄

🙄

I guess I'm not aware of the other woman.  Please, fill me in on this. 

Edited by kittenmittens

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Just now, HULLOBUDMAN said:

If you got pulled over for doing 100 in a 55 and your lawyer got it changed to a non-moving violation with no points on your record but a big fine, would you take it so your insurance wouldn't go up or get points on your license? Same premise with a much more serious allegation. I don't understand why people find it so hard to believe this happens every day in the legal system but aren't open to the possibility it could have happened here. He had the choice to fight it with a public defender and possibly face jail time and ruin his career OR plead guilty (and yes that means you admit doing it in court) and get probation with the charge later expunged.

You (hopefully) have never faced jail time. You (likely) have never had a job that you could lose that would pay you $20m a year.

I am not saying whether he did or didn't do anything but it seems disingenuous to me when anyone says they cant understand how anyone would plead if they were innocent.

This is a whole lot of speculation. 

I’m gonna go ahead and read Tyreek Hill’s own words stating that he lost control of his emotions and as a result hit & choked a pregnant woman & i’m going to take them at face value. 👍🏼

Because I wasn’t there. And all I know is what Hill said he did. And what he said he did matched what she said he did. 

And as an aside, that as first time offender the penalty he faced wasn’t as significant as you’re suggesting. Probation, a fine, maybe he’d have to enter a program. :shrug:

so your analogy is off as well. 

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1 minute ago, kittenmittens said:

🙄

I guess I'm not aware of the other woman.  Please, fill me in on this. 

Better to just put you on ignore. 

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@Hot Sauce Guy, have you listened to the full tape that’s out now? If not, you should give it a listen. I felt pretty much the same way you do, then I listened to the tape and it changed my perception of the incident you’re talking about.

I agree he’s probably no saint, but I also think he comes off much more level headed than I expected, and his “girlfriend” actually is the one that needs a lot of help.

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I really don’t see the need to rehash the whole guilt:innocence angle anymore. He was cleared by the NFL and only if he does something else will it matter.

At this point you can say you don’t like the risk (whether it’s dynasty or redraft) based on possible bad actions in the future but it’s time to move on. There was like 35 pages discussing the type of person he is/was/will be already. Now we should only be discussing projections, news, ADP etc.

As far as whether he had past bad acts there’s a tremendous amount of bias on both sides at this point. No use in trying to change anyone’s mind - we’re a month from the start of the season. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

This is a whole lot of speculation. 

I’m gonna go ahead and read Tyreek Hill’s own words stating that he lost control of his emotions and as a result hit & choked a pregnant woman & i’m going to take them at face value. 👍🏼

Because I wasn’t there. And all I know is what Hill said he did. And what he said he did matched what she said he did. 

And as an aside, that as first time offender the penalty he faced wasn’t as significant as you’re suggesting. Probation, a fine, maybe he’d have to enter a program. :shrug:

so your analogy is off as well. 

I get it and I am fine that you thinking he did it. I am not trying to change anyone's mind since most people are already set one way or another without knowing the full set of facts (none of us do).  Again, I am taking issue with anyone that says they cant understand why an innocent person would plead.

His penalty pleading WAS probation, a fine and entering a program. It seems unlikely to me that it would have been the same if he was found guilty.  It sure seems like a simple google search will tell you that OK law would have been much more serious than what you think may have happened.

 

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/domestic-violence/oklahoma-domestic-violence-laws-charges-penalt

Domestic abuse committed against a pregnant woman

If the crime of domestic abuse is committed against a pregnant woman and the offender knew of the pregnancy, the penalties can be extremely harsh. For a first offense, the crime is a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year in jail. If the offense is a second or subsequent conviction, the crime is a felony punishable by up to ten years in prison. If the mother miscarries as a result of the domestic abuse, however, or there is any injury to the unborn child, the crime is a felony for which the offender can be sentenced up to twenty years in prison.

Domestic abuse by strangulation

If a defendant commits assault and battery by strangulation or attempted strangulation against a domestic victim listed above, with intent to cause great bodily harm, he is guilty of a felony. A first offense of this crime is punishable by one to three years in prison or a fine up to $3,000, or both. The penalty for a second or subsequent offense is three to ten years in prison or a fine up to $20,000, or both.

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5 minutes ago, HULLOBUDMAN said:

I get it and I am fine that you thinking he did it. I am not trying to change anyone's mind since most people are already set one way or another without knowing the full set of facts (none of us do).  Again, I am taking issue with anyone that says they cant understand why an innocent person would plead.

His penalty pleading WAS probation, a fine and entering a program. It seems unlikely to me that it would have been the same if he was found guilty.  It sure seems like a simple google search will tell you that OK law would have been much more serious than what you think may have happened.

 

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/domestic-violence/oklahoma-domestic-violence-laws-charges-penalt

Domestic abuse committed against a pregnant woman

If the crime of domestic abuse is committed against a pregnant woman and the offender knew of the pregnancy, the penalties can be extremely harsh. For a first offense, the crime is a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year in jail. If the offense is a second or subsequent conviction, the crime is a felony punishable by up to ten years in prison. If the mother miscarries as a result of the domestic abuse, however, or there is any injury to the unborn child, the crime is a felony for which the offender can be sentenced up to twenty years in prison.

Domestic abuse by strangulation

If a defendant commits assault and battery by strangulation or attempted strangulation against a domestic victim listed above, with intent to cause great bodily harm, he is guilty of a felony. A first offense of this crime is punishable by one to three years in prison or a fine up to $3,000, or both. The penalty for a second or subsequent offense is three to ten years in prison or a fine up to $20,000, or both.

Ok, my bad - the penalty is worse than I thought. In the article I posted it said Hill’s punishment was consistent with 1st time offender.

but I’m not a lawyer. 

As for the rest...are you saying the victim was lying?

That Hill’s confession was purely to stay out of trouble?

possible. Unlikely,  but possible. 

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10 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I really don’t see the need to rehash the whole guilt:innocence angle anymore. He was cleared by the NFL and only if he does something else will it matter.

At this point you can say you don’t like the risk (whether it’s dynasty or redraft) based on possible bad actions in the future but it’s time to move on. There was like 35 pages discussing the type of person he is/was/will be already. Now we should only be discussing projections, news, ADP etc.

As far as whether he had past bad acts there’s a tremendous amount of bias on both sides at this point. No use in trying to change anyone’s mind - we’re a month from the start of the season. 

 

While that’s fair, I think that history is relevant to the current situation when someone acts like it’s a 1-off & no big deal. That’s the only reason I brought up that history.  

I’m out on Hill. I drafted him last year & loved the production, but it wasn’t a great feeling drafting a dude who had that history.

if people want to take the risk, I wish you all the best of luck with your leagues. 

Hopefully his pattern of violence against women doesn’t continue to escalate. 

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1 minute ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Ok, my bad - the penalty is worse than I thought. In the article I posted it said Hill’s punishment was consistent with 1st time offender.

but I’m not a lawyer. 

As for the rest...are you saying the victim was lying?

That Hill’s confession was purely to stay out of trouble?

possible. Unlikely,  but possible. 

Nope, not making judgment at all. Just refuting your comment about why someone would please when innocent. He had a lot to lose as a young 20 year old with a promising NFL career. My opinion is that people should be open to the POSSIBILITY (don't have to believe it based upon the other things you read) that a public defender advised him that his best move for his future was to admit guilt, take a penalty and probation and have the conviction expunged after 3 years. 

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24 minutes ago, HULLOBUDMAN said:

Nope, not making judgment at all. Just refuting your comment about why someone would please when innocent. He had a lot to lose as a young 20 year old with a promising NFL career. My opinion is that people should be open to the POSSIBILITY (don't have to believe it based upon the other things you read) that a public defender advised him that his best move for his future was to admit guilt, take a penalty and probation and have the conviction expunged after 3 years. 

I’m open to that possibility. 

And that was the benefit of the doubt I gave Hill last year.

the newest incident made it harder to be that generous about the first incident. 

It is what it is. 

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy
Typo

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23 minutes ago, HULLOBUDMAN said:

Nope, not making judgment at all. Just refuting your comment about why someone would please when innocent. He had a lot to lose as a young 20 year old with a promising NFL career. My opinion is that people should be open to the POSSIBILITY (don't have to believe it based upon the other things you read) that a public defender advised him that his best move for his future was to admit guilt, take a penalty and probation and have the conviction expunged after 3 years. 

You are right, anything is possible. Maybe Obama did it and he was taking the blame for the good of the country.  For me, you say you beat your pregnant girlfriend I'll believe it. 

The idea that people are saying all that is fake is pretty gross. I know guys like you are beating your chests right now but you are embarrassing yourselves. Probably a good time to move on.

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This f***in thread. Just when I get out it pulls me back in. 

If Damien Williams is hurt and the backups are forced to start, does that affect Hill's value? If so, does it increase it or decrease it?

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3 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

This f***in thread. Just when I get out it pulls me back in. 

If Damien Williams is hurt and the backups are forced to start, does that affect Hill's value? If so, does it increase it or decrease it?

I don’t think it makes a huge difference. Hill’s gonna Hill as long as he’s on the field. 

Maybe they use a few more quick hitters or WR screens, and Hill would likely benefit from that, but likely not more than Kelce. 

And it’s not like they have no running backs - Andy Reid can scheme for anyone to suit up & do pretty well. 

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5 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

This f***in thread. Just when I get out it pulls me back in. 

If Damien Williams is hurt and the backups are forced to start, does that affect Hill's value? If so, does it increase it or decrease it?

Probably hurts because the defense can give him more attention. 

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1 hour ago, kutta said:

@Hot Sauce Guy, have you listened to the full tape that’s out now? If not, you should give it a listen. I felt pretty much the same way you do, then I listened to the tape and it changed my perception of the incident you’re talking about.

I agree he’s probably no saint, but I also think he comes off much more level headed than I expected, and his “girlfriend” actually is the one that needs a lot of help.

Be that as it may, he admitted to losing control, hitting & choking her. 

What folks say after the fact once they’ve strategized a PR campaign just isn’t as interesting. 

I’m not saying she isn’t nutty, because I don’t know her. But I’m also never a guy to say, “she had it coming”  as the prevailing “pro-Hill” side here seems to suggest.

Theres never (I repeat, *ne-ver*) a reason to lay hands on a woman. Never. And if it’s escalating to the point that a man is losing control, then that man should walk away, drive away, get on a train - whatever. Just leave. 

Hill didn’t do that. And now we have a 2nd incident. 

And it fits the pattern of domestic abuse.

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13 minutes ago, voiceofunreason said:

Probably hurts because the defense can give him more attention. 

I’m not sure how - he’s too fast & the schemes are too complex. 

Even if Hyde is a 2.7 ypc plodder, defenses will have to account for someone in the backfield. 

I feel like if it were the opposite it would be far more impactful. If Hill goes down, I’d expect DWilliams numbers to suffer. 

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23 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

This f***in thread. Just when I get out it pulls me back in. 

If Damien Williams is hurt and the backups are forced to start, does that affect Hill's value? If so, does it increase it or decrease it?

I don’t think its affected one way or the other. It’s not like Damien Williams is some great talent. He’s a solid back in a great system. The other backs would likely be fine.

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15 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I don’t think its affected one way or the other. It’s not like Damien Williams is some great talent. He’s a solid back in a great system. The other backs would likely be fine.

B-b-b-bingo! 

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Can we get back to Hill as a football player. I think 40 pages of speculation and couch lawyers is enough. 

I still think he’s right up there with the best in Tier 1. I reached for him in the 2nd round last year and he didn’t disappoint. Hoping he is there at 13 but I’m not holding my breath. Also having a hard time deciding between him and Gurley. Hopefully one goes to make it easy. Mahomes has to come back down at least a little bit but I think Hill has similar #’s this year. Pretty safe top 5 imo. 

I have it:

Hopkins 

Evans

Hill

Jones

Adams

 

Edited by Elevencents
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14 minutes ago, Elevencents said:

Can we get back to Hill as a football player. I think 40 pages of speculation and couch lawyers is enough. 

I still think he’s right up there with the best in Tier 1. I reached for him in the 2nd round last year and he didn’t disappoint. Hoping he is there at 13 but I’m not holding my breath. Also having a hard time deciding between him and Gurley. Hopefully one goes to make it easy. Mahomes has to come back down at least a little bit but I think Hill has similar #’s this year. Pretty safe top 5 imo. 

I have it:

Hopkins 

Evans

Hill

Jones

Adams

 

AMEN!

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21 minutes ago, Elevencents said:

Can we get back to Hill as a football player. I think 40 pages of speculation and couch lawyers is enough. 

I still think he’s right up there with the best in Tier 1. I reached for him in the 2nd round last year and he didn’t disappoint. Hoping he is there at 13 but I’m not holding my breath. Also having a hard time deciding between him and Gurley. Hopefully one goes to make it easy. Mahomes has to come back down at least a little bit but I think Hill has similar #’s this year. Pretty safe top 5 imo. 

I have it:

Hopkins 

Evans

Hill

Jones

Adams

 

 Don't get upset at people that want to discount Hill for various reasons.  This is when you can gain value with him.  I have been very happy all offseason acquiring him.  I appreciate the haters.

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2 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Be that as it may, he admitted to losing control, hitting & choking her. 

What folks say after the fact once they’ve strategized a PR campaign just isn’t as interesting. 

I’m not saying she isn’t nutty, because I don’t know her. But I’m also never a guy to say, “she had it coming”  as the prevailing “pro-Hill” side here seems to suggest.

Theres never (I repeat, *ne-ver*) a reason to lay hands on a woman. Never. And if it’s escalating to the point that a man is losing control, then that man should walk away, drive away, get on a train - whatever. Just leave. 

Hill didn’t do that. And now we have a 2nd incident. 

And it fits the pattern of domestic abuse.

Read this: https://medium.com/@claywendler/sex-lies-and-audiotape-can-tyreek-hill-outrun-espinal-family-control-95ca27954911

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5 minutes ago, smbkrypt24 said:

 Don't get upset at people that want to discount Hill for various reasons.  This is when you can gain value with him.  I have been very happy all offseason acquiring him.  I appreciate the haters.

Dismissing legitimate concerns about a player as people being “haters” is the reason so many have been burned by Josh Gordon over the years. They don’t always end up like Elliott, at a discounted price, performing admirably. 

Are people concerned about Gurley’s arthritic knee “haters” as well? 🙄

Someone in my start-up dynasty just spent $90/500 on Hill.

Clearly that manager is not concerned, and that doesn’t seem like much of a discount, if any. I had him priced around $95. I wouldn’t bid that, but clearly someone will since that’s about what he went for.

And that is likely the scenario for every league I’m in. I don’t expect his ADP to be effected in the slightest in general for redraft or dynasty since there’s no suspension. 

But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a risk.

And importantly to this discussion, without getting a discount, you’re absorbing that risk at full value. 

That’s called calculating risk, not being a hater. 

HTH! 

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3 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Dismissing legitimate concerns about a player as people being “haters” is the reason so many have been burned by Josh Gordon over the years. They don’t always end up like Elliott, at a discounted price, performing admirably. 

Are people concerned about Gurley’s arthritic knee “haters” as well? 🙄

Someone in my start-up dynasty just spent $90/500 on Hill.

Clearly that manager is not concerned, and that doesn’t seem like much of a discount, if any. I had him priced around $95. I wouldn’t bid that, but clearly someone will since that’s about what he went for.

And that is likely the scenario for every league I’m in. I don’t expect his ADP to be effected in the slightest in general for redraft or dynasty since there’s no suspension. 

But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a risk.

And importantly to this discussion, without getting a discount, you’re absorbing that risk at full value. 

That’s called calculating risk, not being a hater. 

HTH! 

Well here is where we probably differ.  

When the news broke out I traded a 2020 first to acquire Hill.  I posted on multiple forums and most said i lost (hater group)

I drafted him in the 4th round of two separate startup dynasty drafts.  (letting him fall this long in dynasty seemed like a lot of people hating on him)  I specifically did startup drafts this offseason due to the value I saw in acquiring Hill.

Now that we see Hill was not suspended by the league his value is rebounding.  At this point I see the value in discounting him slightly due to past DV case and what some may see as child abuse that didnt have enough evidence to proceed.  

My post more referred to the previous haters, as I don't mind slightly putting a discount on him for risks.  I have him dropped 2 WRs for the risk, but still in the first round of dynasty startups.  

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moving forward I think one of the tougher things for him will be the reception he receives in opposing stadiums....heavily boo'd the entire time....warm ups, every time he touches the ball, every time he gets hit (cheers), etc....I realize he is a professional and athletes play through these type of things, but you have to think the mob mentality that still thinks he is guilty and will continue to condemn him will be "out in force".....and at some point I would think that will take a little bit of a toll on a players psyche....now how much will it "affect his game"....I don't know....but trying to put myself in that spot I would think it would be tough to play through..... 

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1 minute ago, Stinkin Ref said:

moving forward I think one of the tougher things for him will be the reception he receives in opposing stadiums....heavily boo'd the entire time....warm ups, every time he touches the ball, every time he gets hit (cheers), etc....I realize he is a professional and athletes play through these type of things, but you have to think the mob mentality that still thinks he is guilty and will continue to condemn him will be "out in force".....and at some point I would think that will take a little bit of a toll on a players psyche....now how much will it "affect his game"....I don't know....but trying to put myself in that spot I would think it would be tough to play through..... 

Or it could drive him to perform even better to shut everyone up. So I don’t think you can consider it since it could easily go either way. 

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52 minutes ago, Deuce said:

It’s an interesting article for sure.

a biased one, but fair. If you believe the absolute best-case scenario. 

There could be another reality, that it did happen, all parties saw how it would impact Hill at the time & for the future, and stories have been altered.

That yet another occurrence of violence between them had occurred is what’s most troubling to me, especially when it involves a child. 

But again - I wasn’t there. I dunno what happened. Some say “I wasn’t there so he must be innocent. He must have been framed. He must have been treated unfairly.” And I respect those takes.

my take is that if nothing happened, the police wouldn’t have been called & he wouldn’t have been in that situation. But he was, and they were, and now here we are. 

Could the truth be somewhere in the middle? Absolutely. I’m totally willing to concede that. 

But I have a hard time with the presumption of innocence. Not because Hill is a black kid in OK,  but because *something* happened that led to that situation. 

Regardless, I wish those who draft Hill good luck. And I hope that Hill never hits a woman or a child. If he does, an awful lot of people who stood up for him are gonna have egg on their face. 

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52 minutes ago, smbkrypt24 said:

Well here is where we probably differ.  

When the news broke out I traded a 2020 first to acquire Hill.  I posted on multiple forums and most said i lost (hater group)

I drafted him in the 4th round of two separate startup dynasty drafts.  (letting him fall this long in dynasty seemed like a lot of people hating on him)  I specifically did startup drafts this offseason due to the value I saw in acquiring Hill.

Now that we see Hill was not suspended by the league his value is rebounding.  At this point I see the value in discounting him slightly due to past DV case and what some may see as child abuse that didnt have enough evidence to proceed.  

My post more referred to the previous haters, as I don't mind slightly putting a discount on him for risks.  I have him dropped 2 WRs for the risk, but still in the first round of dynasty startups.  

Actually no, we’re eye to eye. That all makes sense. Context matters. Looking back to when the news broke, his value surely ranked in both dynasty & redraft. More in dynasty since it was long before the season. 

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14 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

moving forward I think one of the tougher things for him will be the reception he receives in opposing stadiums....heavily boo'd the entire time....warm ups, every time he touches the ball, every time he gets hit (cheers), etc....I realize he is a professional and athletes play through these type of things, but you have to think the mob mentality that still thinks he is guilty and will continue to condemn him will be "out in force".....and at some point I would think that will take a little bit of a toll on a players psyche....now how much will it "affect his game"....I don't know....but trying to put myself in that spot I would think it would be tough to play through..... 

Raiders Chiefs games should interesting. Shy bunch of fans, those Black Hole denizens. :lol: 

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7 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Regardless, I wish those who draft Hill good luck. And I hope that Hill never hits a woman or a child. If he does, an awful lot of people who stood up for him are gonna have egg on their face. 

agreed....kind of like everybody that was on the other side right now.....

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3 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

agreed....kind of like everybody that was on the other side right now.....

Don’t really see that at all right now. 

Something happened that led Hill to the position he was in. 

Perhaps how the legal system handled it is up for debate - but something happened. 

And while the story now is “he was pressured into accepting a plea that’s hanging over him like a millstone”, the fact remains that he made that plea, and said that he hit & choked a pregnant woman. 

Don't really see any egg on the face of anyone who believed him. Not sure that’s how it works. :shrug:

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4 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Don’t really see that at all right now. 

Something happened that led Hill to the position he was in. 

Perhaps how the legal system handled it is up for debate - but something happened. 

And while the story now is “he was pressured into accepting a plea that’s hanging over him like a millstone”, the fact remains that he made that plea, and said that he hit & choked a pregnant woman. 

Don't really see any egg on the face of anyone who believed him. Not sure that’s how it works. :shrug:

egg....talking about the last 40 pages or so of this thread regarding the recent "issue"...not the incident before he was in the league

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7 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

egg....talking about the last 40 pages or so of this thread regarding the recent "issue"...not the incident before he was in the league

Oh - sorry, I’m new to the topic once the new issue hit & missed those 40 pages, but I can imagine. 

Guessing people were saying “suspended for the year!” Etc? 

I would probably have said the same. I think his value would tank & was sure it’d be a suspension. 

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I haven't read the past 40 pages but I think there is an argument to be made whether his off the field controversy will effect his play on the field. 

The guy is a top 5 WR but i still have my doubts about him and I often will take my next player in line to avoid a potential headache. If my next WR in line is an entire tier below than I would take him. I don't know what happened but I know that I would never accept a plea if I were innocent  and would do everything to fight the charges. I expect someone with as much pride as a professional athlete would do everything to protect their reputation. He could lose current and future endorsement deals. 

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30 minutes ago, yoman said:

I haven't read the past 40 pages but I think there is an argument to be made whether his off the field controversy will effect his play on the field. 

The guy is a top 5 WR but i still have my doubts about him and I often will take my next player in line to avoid a potential headache. If my next WR in line is an entire tier below than I would take him. I don't know what happened but I know that I would never accept a plea if I were innocent  and would do everything to fight the charges. I expect someone with as much pride as a professional athlete would do everything to protect their reputation. He could lose current and future endorsement deals. 

I would recommend to you and @Hot Sauce Guy and anybody else joining the party a little late to go back and look at some of the links provided in this thread, including the one on Twitter where the guy goes through the court transcripts from the 2014 case...and the sex lies and audiotape link....and the link explaining why Tyreek would take the deal and would have been stupid not too...there are so many possible layers to this situation that it is understandable that we are at where we are at and he did not get suspended, etc....there very well could be more that comes out about lies, extortion, set ups, etc....there is still a ton of details and information that the general public is not, and may not ever be aware of.....this isn't just a case of Tyreek "catching a break" and "getting away with something"....around almost every corner of this case, Tyreek position came out looking better and better....there may be a reason for that....its not gonna matter to most of you because he was "guilty" from the very beginning without any details or context and will remain "guilty" no matter what....

part of me thinks the girlfriend could come out and admit that she lied about the 2014 stuff, none of it happened, she self inflicted her wounds, she broke the kids arm, the kid really loves Tyreek to the moon and back, she and her family have been trying to extort him from the beginning, etc.....and most of the mob would still think he is "guilty" and a POS monster....

I have a feeling there will be more that comes out and Tyreek kind of hinted at that as he ended his presser at training camp.....saying "my story is crazy man, it's going to be somebody's testimony one day, I'm telling y'all"......

and just as far as the bolded......its pretty easy to puff your chest out and make such a proclamation behind your keyboard.....but it happens all the time....maybe you would be different.....but you probably wouldn't really know it until it was actually happening to you......and your "everything" might be different than others people's "everything" depending on your individual circumstances and resources or lack thereof....

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27 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

I would recommend to you and @Hot Sauce Guy and anybody else joining the party a little late to go back and look at some of the links provided in this thread, including the one on Twitter where the guy goes through the court transcripts from the 2014 case...and the sex lies and audiotape link....and the link explaining why Tyreek would take the deal and would have been stupid not too...there are so many possible layers to this situation that it is understandable that we are at where we are at and he did not get suspended, etc....there very well could be more that comes out about lies, extortion, set ups, etc....there is still a ton of details and information that the general public is not, and may not ever be aware of.....this isn't just a case of Tyreek "catching a break" and "getting away with something"....around almost every corner of this case, Tyreek position came out looking better and better....there may be a reason for that....its not gonna matter to most of you because he was "guilty" from the very beginning without any details or context and will remain "guilty" no matter what....

part of me thinks the girlfriend could come out and admit that she lied about the 2014 stuff, none of it happened, she self inflicted her wounds, she broke the kids arm, the kid really loves Tyreek to the moon and back, she and her family have been trying to extort him from the beginning, etc.....and most of the mob would still think he is "guilty" and a POS monster....

I have a feeling there will be more that comes out and Tyreek kind of hinted at that as he ended his presser at training camp.....saying "my story is crazy man, it's going to be somebody's testimony one day, I'm telling y'all"......

and just as far as the bolded......its pretty easy to puff your chest out and make such a proclamation behind your keyboard.....but it happens all the time....maybe you would be different.....but you probably wouldn't really know it until it was actually happening to you......and your "everything" might be different than others people's "everything" depending on your individual circumstances and resources or lack thereof....

And it’s also quite possible that Hill did that sh!t & that a lot of this stuff is PR or revisionist history. 

Weird how completely convinced some people are one way or the other when no one knows the real story other than the folks who were there. 

Tyreek didn’t catch a break, nor did he get away with anything.

But he also might not be 100% innocent either. 

And the reality is we just don’t know.

I’ve read the thought pieces, and I’m well aware that people of color receive unfair treatment in many parts (most all) of the country.

But I’m also aware that elite college athletes are sometimes handled with kid gloves, regardless of color. And yes, sometimes they do get away with stuff. 

I’m also aware that people change their stories after the fact because finances are involved. Or PR matters. Or for whatever reason. 

Again, I wasn’t there, so alas, I lack your confidence & conviction to argue it one way or another. 

But in fact, as a young person I was accused of something I didn’t do. I was cutting class as a senior in HS, was waking & sat on a curb in a parking lot to smoke a cigarette. someone in an office called the cops & said I was “casing cars” - apparently someone had broken in to several in that lot recently & they thought they had their guy.  I was interrogated for hours. I was threatened with all kinds of punishment including being put in county jail for the weekend (it happened on a Friday) and “if only I’d tell them the truth, I could go home”. This went on for the better part of 6 hours. I missed my plans for that night. It sucked. 

But I never once wavered because I wasn't guilty.

so I don’t need to “puff out my chest” because I’ve been there. And that wasn’t something as heinous as hitting/choking a pregnant woman. 

If you’d like to continue defending Hill, I won’t judge you for it, but don’t pretend you know anything more than anyone else, because again, the only people who know what really went down there, were there. 👍🏼

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy

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I think we can all agree on these assumptions.

1. The police know more than anyone here in the forum or anyone in the media.  

Hill was cleared 2 times by the police.  

2. The NFL knows more than anyone here in the forum or anyone in the media.

The NFL cleared Hill of any wrong doing.  

By not suspending him - the NFL takes a bigger public relations hit then suspending him.  In many people's minds - Hill is garbage and should be suspended.  It would have been easier for the NFL to give him 2-4 games just for the noise this has caused.  But the NFL saw all the evidence and CLEARED him.  So the evidence they saw must have been overwhelming.  By clearing Hill - twitter, the media, and all the haters have been singing the same song.  "How can a wife beater - child abuser get off when guys like Josh Gordon are still sitting out"

In my mind - Hill is not a bad guy.  When he was 18 - he was dating the wrong women - he was accused of something really bad.  He was looking at going to jail - his public defender got him to plead out - take a deal and avoid jail time.  I probably would have done the same thing.  

Now it has come out that his roommate at the time has stood behind Hill stating that nothing ever happened. And on Tape - when Hill did not know he was being recorded yet his GF knew there was a recording - he denied the original abuse charge and she did not dispute it.  

Just my 2 cents - Hope Hill owners held on to him or got him on a huge discount.

Edited by jesseasi
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34 minutes ago, jesseasi said:

I think we can all agree on these assumptions.

1. The police know more than anyone here in the forum or anyone in the media.  

Hill was cleared 2 times by the police.  

2. The NFL knows more than anyone here in the forum or anyone in the media.

The NFL cleared Hill of any wrong doing.  

 

Except Hill wasn’t cleared two times by the police.  They said they believed a crime occurred, but they couldn’t prove who committed that crime.  That doesn’t clear or exonerate him, it can mean a couple things: he is innocent OR he is guilty, but they can’t prove it.  

Likewise, the NFL didn’t clear Hill of any wrong doing; their statement specifically said they didn’t have access to the legal investigation and court proceedings (they’ve been sealed), and as a result, they couldn’t say if Hill had violated the NFL’s policy.  This is not clearing Hill, it’s saying we don’t have enough evidence.

Edited by Bayhawks
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31 minutes ago, jesseasi said:

I think we can all agree on these assumptions.

1. The police know more than anyone here in the forum or anyone in the media.  

Hill was cleared 2 times by the police.  

2. The NFL knows more than anyone here in the forum or anyone in the media.

 

Yes, we can all agree on those things. 

I think we can all agree on these things also:

1. Police don’t always act within the law.

2. The NFL often protects its own interests, even in the worst case scenarios, unless they absolutely must act. 

3. Being cleared by the police doesn’t always mean one is innocent. 

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7 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

Except Hill wasn’t cleared two times by the police.  They said they believed a crime occurred, but they couldn’t prove who committed that crime.  That doesn’t clear or exonerate him, it can mean a couple things: he is innocent OR he is guilty, but they can’t prove it.  

Likewise, the NFL didn’t clear Hill of any wrong doing; their statement specifically said they didn’t have access to the legal investigation and court proceedings (they’ve been sealed), and as a result, they couldn’t say if Hill had violated the NFL’s policy.  This is not clearing Hill, it’s saying we don’t have enough evidence.

This exactly. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, ImTheScientist said:

#1 scoring WR this year. Nuff said

I mean, not yet,  but it’s possible. 

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Hill averaged over 100 receiving yards per game and had 11 receiving TD's in his 11 games with Hunt.  After Hunt was cut,  Hill averaged less than 70 receiving yards per game and only had 1 receiving TD in his last 7 games,  which includes the two playoff games.

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Seriously stop with the guilty or not guilty crap in this thread. It’s time to move on. The Hill owners and KC fans aren’t going to budge. The people “convinced” he’s a shady dude aren’t going to budge.

He was not suspended. That’s all that matters now. If you missed the fun from a few months back start a new thread where you can argue the same points over and over again - and both biased sides can talk past each other for pages and pages.

The season starts in one month. Hill is playing Week 1. We should be discussing his prospects for the upcoming season and at most saying there could be some risk of future suspension if you want to downplay him a little.

I realize I’m coming across as the board police here and I don’t like telling anyone what they should or shouldn’t post but I’m certain 90% of the people here now don’t want to rehash the whole offseason controversy - and if we want to read this thread there’s no avoiding it if a few people late to the party can’t drop it.

You either think he’s a misunderstood martyr, a complete scumbag, or somewhere in the middle - NO ONE CARES.

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9 hours ago, JoeKappBudGrant said:

Hill averaged over 100 receiving yards per game and had 11 receiving TD's in his 11 games with Hunt.  After Hunt was cut,  Hill averaged less than 70 receiving yards per game and only had 1 receiving TD in his last 7 games,  which includes the two playoff games.

The offense as a whole slowed down a little after Hunt was released but that could just be variance as they picked it back up in the playoffs. Most people that are educated in statistics probably realize the whole offense is in line for at least a small regression but Hill should be in line for another big season as the most (or second most) important part of the passing attack.

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9 hours ago, JoeKappBudGrant said:

Hill averaged over 100 receiving yards per game and had 11 receiving TD's in his 11 games with Hunt.  After Hunt was cut,  Hill averaged less than 70 receiving yards per game and only had 1 receiving TD in his last 7 games,  which includes the two playoff games.

 Is this something we should account for more? There is plenty of discussion about Mahomes having some level of regression, which I think is reasonable. In addition, I wonder if they hit some bumps because of the downgrade at RB. 

I only see this as a thing for redraft. In dynasty if he stays out of trouble, he’s gold: elite talent and potentially paired up w Mahomes long term (please — that is not an attempted back foot into the guilt/innocence thing) 

ETA: I posted at the same time as @Dr. Octopus above. Agree w his analysis 

Edited by DAG
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