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Capella's 24-hour, VERY bigly OH MY GOD HOW DID WE GET HERE thread (1 Viewer)

Don't you think this is killing Trump that he can't get on his Twitter and gloat  about his unprecedented victory? He really only wanted revenge for those who made fun of him about becoming the president,  take his trophy and go home.   Now he has to work hard, study, read and be polite for the next f****** 4 to 8 years. That has to be hell for him.

 
msommer said:
But wait, I thpought these people were "lazy" and just wanted a "hand out".?

Aren't those conservative talking points?
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They are talking points.  Kind of like the Trump voters are "racists" and "sexist".  Yet people still use them.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I'm not a fan of term limits but we had them on the ballot this year for County Council and they passed by huge margins.  I'm in a Maryland suburb of D.C., very liberal.  I think Dodds is right that term limits are popular on both sides of the aisle.
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There are two ways to look at term limits though.

1) Term limits on the guy I like and the guy I'm voting for.  Those aren't popular or we'd see 2 or 3 term people getting beaten in the primaries.  If they keep getting voted in there's a reason most of the time.

2) Term limits on the other guy who's corrupt.  Those are hugely popular.  And that's how people think when they vote them in.

But it might happen.  And we will all give up our right to choose because we shouldn't be trusted with it.  And it's on both sides of the aisle everyone likes term limits.  But just because everyone likes something doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.  I'm hoping they get bogged down in partisan fighting like a lot of things.  Because I don't like having my rights taken away.

 
David Dodds said:
Term limits is the one thing I am positive Trump can get done.  That's the best way to show he is draining the swamp.  
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You are positive the Trump can get 2/3 of both houses of Congress and 38 states to ratify a constitutional amendment to impose term limits?  :unsure:

 
Niles Standish said:
There are two ways to look at term limits though.

1) Term limits on the guy I like and the guy I'm voting for.  Those aren't popular or we'd see 2 or 3 term people getting beaten in the primaries.  If they keep getting voted in there's a reason most of the time.

2) Term limits on the other guy who's corrupt.  Those are hugely popular.  And that's how people think when they vote them in.

But it might happen.  And we will all give up our right to choose because we shouldn't be trusted with it.  And it's on both sides of the aisle everyone likes term limits.  But just because everyone likes something doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.  I'm hoping they get bogged down in partisan fighting like a lot of things.  Because I don't like having my rights taken away.
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Our right is to vote.  Not to choose anyone we want.  Subtle, but a big difference and that right isn't what we are talking about here.

Term limits are a good thing for multiple reasons.  There may be times when it is a bad thing, but I think the scale tips to being a positive concept.  

Keep in mind that the best form of government is a benevolent dictator.  However, we don't try that form of government anymore because we've learned the negatives of an evil dictator outweigh the positives of a good one.

It's like they say in sports team management, better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late.

 
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Jayrod said:
Our right is to vote.  Not to choose anyone we want.  Subtle, but a big difference and that right isn't what we are talking about here.

Term limits are a good thing for multiple reasons.  There may be times when it is a bad thing, but I think the scale tips to being a positive concept.  

Keep in mind that the best form of government is a benevolent dictator.  However, we don't try that form of government anymore because we've learned the negatives of an evil dictator outweigh the positives of a good one.
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So when is a term-limit good?  All they do is keep popular politicians from being reelected.  If you're worried about fighting corruption in politicians.  Well, on a large scale the guy leaving is about the same as the new guy coming in from a corruption standpoint.  So I don't think that's a reasonable argument.

 
rick6668 said:
They're not done counting.  CNN currently projecting Trump wins popular vote.  http://www.cnn.com/election/results

It'll be close regardless of who wins.
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When you click on the "popular vote" tab, it does say "projected winner, Trump".

I think it's slightly sloppy page design though ... looks like a simple acknowledgement that Trump is the president-elect presumptive, not necessarily the popular vote winner.

In any case, I agree with you about being close either way. Winning the popular vote by a few hundred thousand, IMHO, is not particularly meaningful in a republic. Besides, if we really do want to hang our hat on "more popular votes!" ... I think most of Johnson's and all of McMullin's popular votes should be rolled in with Trumps to more accurately reflect the duality of the America voting public.

 
SoBeDad said:
If Trump made all these inroads into non-white voters, why did Hillary win the popular vote? She must've made inroads too. 
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Upon closer reading, the article above explains it well. Hillary benefitted from a larger non-white electorate relative to 2012.  She performed about as well as Obama among whites. She won the non-white vote, but not by as much as Obama did, especially among Latinos. Maybe a machismo factor.

 
Niles Standish said:
So when is a term-limit good?  All they do is keep popular politicians from being reelected.  If you're worried about fighting corruption in politicians.  Well, on a large scale the guy leaving is about the same as the new guy coming in from a corruption standpoint.  So I don't think that's a reasonable argument.
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That is a HUGE assumption and one I wouldn't concede.  In fact, it is the primary thesis of the argument that the point is to limit the damage of any bad congressmen to 12 years.

Another primary reason behind it is to stifle the "career" politicians.  People who are motivated primarily to get re-elected year after year and get so lost in the world of politics that they fail to remember their constituents and become so self-serving that they are no longer public servants.  When you never have to worry about life after being a politician, you probably don't care as much about those who aren't politicians.  When you will have figure out a way to make a living after your 12 years, it changes the motivations.

At least that's the theory.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Then you probably shouldn't have a position on the matter one way or the other.

A variation on Chesterton's Fence.
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Had to look up Chesterton's Fence, but it sounds like this doesn't fit.  I don't see the use of adding this law.  Shouldn't the people wanting to add a law be the ones responsible for explaining a reason for it?

 
Jayrod said:
That is a HUGE assumption and one I wouldn't concede.  In fact, it is the primary thesis of the argument that the point is to limit the damage of any bad congressmen to 12 years.

Another primary reason behind it is to stifle the "career" politicians.  People who are motivated primarily to get re-elected year after year and get so lost in the world of politics that they fail to remember their constituents and become so self-serving that they are no longer public servants.  When you never have to worry about life after being a politician, you probably don't care as much about those who aren't politicians.  When you will have figure out a way to make a living after your 12 years, it changes the motivations.

At least that's the theory.
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That's fair, I don't agree but it's a fair reasoning and easy to follow.  Appreciate it.

 
Card Trader said:
These idiot high school kids walking out of school to protest, our next generation sucks.  What are you fools protesting?
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Their right to become whiny millennials like the last 10 years of HS grads.  Trump may actually find jobs for these kids and they don't want to have to go to work after college.

 
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Card Trader said:
These idiot high school kids walking out of school to protest, our next generation sucks.  What are you fools protesting?
Click to expand...
Go down to the mall in DC on any given day, people protest dumb stuff all the time.  That's what being an American affords you the right to do. 

 
Walking Boot said:
Gary Johnson voters swung 7 states to Hillary. Without him, she would have lost NV, CO, NM, MN, NH, ME, and tied in VA.

38EV not counting 13 in VA.
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This is assuming Gary Johnson voters took from Trump more than Hillary.  I'm not sure 1) that Libertarians feel the Republicans have served them in the last 20-30 years so their base might not be hardcore Republicans.  They normally should be socially with Democrats and Fiscally with Republicans.  But at least under Bush the Republicans weren't much different than Democrats fiscally.  So they might feel a little out in the wind.  2) That people voting for Gary Johnson really cared who they were voting for other than it wasn't Trump or Hillary.  3) That the Johnson people would have voted for Trump or Hillary if he wasn't on the ballot since I think he was more a none of the above than an I want a Libertarian. 

 
Card Trader said:
They totally have the right, I just don't understand what their end game is.
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There's no end game, they're just blowing off steam. Probably not worth paying attention to one way or another as long as no violence/damage is happening.

This election was decided by some people feeling left out and scared, these are just the flip side of that coin.

 
Jayrod said:
That is a HUGE assumption and one I wouldn't concede.  In fact, it is the primary thesis of the argument that the point is to limit the damage of any bad congressmen to 12 years.

Another primary reason behind it is to stifle the "career" politicians.  People who are motivated primarily to get re-elected year after year and get so lost in the world of politics that they fail to remember their constituents and become so self-serving that they are no longer public servants.  When you never have to worry about life after being a politician, you probably don't care as much about those who aren't politicians.  When you will have figure out a way to make a living after your 12 years, it changes the motivations.

At least that's the theory.
Click to expand...
So vote them out.

 
Niles Standish said:
Had to look up Chesterton's Fence, but it sounds like this doesn't fit.  I don't see the use of adding this law.  Shouldn't the people wanting to add a law be the ones responsible for explaining a reason for it?
Click to expand...
It fits because you're using "I don't see the use" as an argument against something when in fact it's just a statement of your own ignorance.

When you do see the use that proponents are claiming for term limits, then you will be able to argue against term limits more capably.

People supporting term limits have provided reasons. The main one is that people naturally get better at their jobs over time. One of the jobs of a politician is to bring home pork to his own district. Allowing politicians to get really good at this is good for their own constituents (who will therefore never vote them out) but arguably bad for the country as a whole. Term limits are a kind of solution to an unfortunate game-theory equilibrium where each voter acting in his own rational interest will act to the detriment of the country as a whole.

There are decent arguments for and against term limits. I'm not taking a side on that. I'm just pointing out that "I don't personally understand the argument for X" is never a very good argument against X.

 
Jayrod said:
Not sure if this article has been posted or not, but it actually brought some things to light that I didn't even see living in rural white America.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/
Click to expand...
Spot on.... 1000%

5-10  years ago I had a poster (believe Dr. Detroit) ask why SEC/south fans root for all of their teams even rivals at times...

I wrote a long "gekko" post explaining how where I/family was raised that we constantly hear about how we're "dumb, etc, etc)..  yet read more books (or did statistically compared to the north) and that every football season we get to watch "our" teams DOMINATE showing we're the best at something.  That our athletes are superior black or white and that we're proud. 

I never realized it till I went to college in Philly then moved to NYC that people really did believe we were dumb rednecks.

I was taught at an early age dont speak southern slang lE Yall or talk with a twang.  Always speak clearly and enunciate . Keep in mind  both of my parents are college athlete graduates (both 1st in their families) and because I made good grades\athletic at an early age  knew I would most likely have a chance to potentially go college.

I had no idea until collage why they had taught me those things.. to protect me... to help me not be stereotyped and lose opportunity  if I moved to a big nothern city.

So when I moved to NYC I met a girl and we were meeting some of her friends for the 1st time at a restaurant.  We arrive at virtually the same time and i hold the door open for everyone.  Her friend looks astonished and says wow thank you. Then immediately laughs and says you're not from the city, are u? Reply no'mam. Friends Bf shakes my hand and mid shake grimmices in pain ,pulling away.. replying damn you have strong hands. I apologized and tell him sorry I forget sometimes people aren't used to my grip...

We sit down and people are talking about where each went to college and where we worked.. Then night went on out at roof top bar and some of their other friends meet up. All laughing etc. And a Texas comment came up followed by "Only thing in Texas are steers & queers" .. everyone laughs..

I'm not laughing. People staring at me notice. Then I sternly reply "I'm from Texas mother ####er".... and before dude could catch his #### coming out of his ### say "you wondered why my hands were so strong? It's because I've been working and lifting weights my entire life.".  I then walked off to the bar.

Long but  yes this resonates deeply with me.

 
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money.never.sleeps said:
Spot on.... 1000%

5-10  years ago I had a poster (believe Dr. Detroit) ask why SEC/south fans root for all of their teams even rivals at times...

I wrote a long "gekko" post explaining how where I/family was raised that we constantly hear about how we're "dumb, etc, etc)..  yet read more books (or did statistically compared to the north) and that every football season we get to watch "our" teams DOMINATE showing we're the best at something.  That our athletes are superior black or white and that we're proud. 

I never realized it till I went to college in Philly then moved to NYC that people really did believe we were dumb rednecks.

I was taught at an early age dont speak southern slang lE Yall or talk with a twang.  Always speak clearly and enunciate . Keep in mind  both of my parents are college athlete graduates (both 1st in their families) and because I made good grades\athletic at an early age  knew I would most likely have a chance to potentially go college.

I had no idea until collage why they had taught me those things.. to protect me... to help me not be stereotyped and lose opportunity  if I moved to a big nothern city.

So when I moved to NYC I met a girl and we were meeting some of her friends for the 1st time at a restaurant.  We arrive at virtually the same time and i hold the door open for everyone.  Her friend looks astonished and says wow thank you. Then immediately laughs and says you're not from the city, are u? Reply no'mam. Friends Bf shakes my hand and mid shake grimmices in pain ,pulling away.. replying damn you have strong hands. I apologized and tell him sorry I forget sometimes people aren't used to my grip...

We sit down and people are talking about where each went to college and where we worked.. Then night went on out at roof top bar and some of their other friends meet up. All laughing etc. And a Texas comment came up followed by "Only thing in Texas are steers & queers" .. everyone laughs..

I'm not laughing. People staring at me notice. Then I sternly reply "I'm from Texas mother ####er".... and before dude could catch his #### coming out of his ### say "you wondered why my hands were so strong? It's because I've been working and lifting weights my entire life.".  I then walked off to the bar.

Long but  yes this resonates deeply with me.
Click to expand...
I never associated rednecks with meatheads. 

:P  

 
Anyone else notice that in his meeting with Obama, Trump looked more somber than ever.  He was like a deer in the headlights. Like he just sat through a meeting with the president and the gravity of this finally hit him, and -- even for a guy with his bravado -- he walked out feeling like "holy ####, I'm woefully unprepared, what the hell have I gotten myself into."

 
Blick said:
I never associated rednecks with meatheads. 

:P  
Click to expand...
Right on  :thumbup:  Come from a large family so coukdnt help It. Plus dad had me doing "grown man" work since I was a kid. much more to that story but it's longer.. goes back to both parents childhoods and college. Dad went from tiny farm town in Arkansas to a school up north but anywho  I'll spare everyone

t's a dumb true example of how people see the South .. and yes it sucks. I've met tons of people the article talks about and though scary... It's true why they would vote for trump ..

My family is mostly democratic now thar many of my older relatives are dying but It's up to the opposition to also get the exact people they mock.

Those dumb rural southerners are prideful hard working  "simple " types or at least majoroty I know. I still get called city slicker by my cousins.  Different world and guess they decided to vote :shrug:

 
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money.never.sleeps said:
Spot on.... 1000%

5-10  years ago I had a poster (believe Dr. Detroit) ask why SEC/south fans root for all of their teams even rivals at times...

I wrote a long "gekko" post explaining how where I/family was raised that we constantly hear about how we're "dumb, etc, etc)..  yet read more books (or did statistically compared to the north) and that every football season we get to watch "our" teams DOMINATE showing we're the best at something.  That our athletes are superior black or white and that we're proud. 

I never realized it till I went to college in Philly then moved to NYC that people really did believe we were dumb rednecks.

I was taught at an early age dont speak southern slang lE Yall or talk with a twang.  Always speak clearly and enunciate . Keep in mind  both of my parents are college athlete graduates (both 1st in their families) and because I made good grades\athletic at an early age  knew I would most likely have a chance to potentially go college.

I had no idea until collage why they had taught me those things.. to protect me... to help me not be stereotyped and lose opportunity  if I moved to a big nothern city.

So when I moved to NYC I met a girl and we were meeting some of her friends for the 1st time at a restaurant.  We arrive at virtually the same time and i hold the door open for everyone.  Her friend looks astonished and says wow thank you. Then immediately laughs and says you're not from the city, are u? Reply no'mam. Friends Bf shakes my hand and mid shake grimmices in pain ,pulling away.. replying damn you have strong hands. I apologized and tell him sorry I forget sometimes people aren't used to my grip...

We sit down and people are talking about where each went to college and where we worked.. Then night went on out at roof top bar and some of their other friends meet up. All laughing etc. And a Texas comment came up followed by "Only thing in Texas are steers & queers" .. everyone laughs..

I'm not laughing. People staring at me notice. Then I sternly reply "I'm from Texas mother ####er".... and before dude could catch his #### coming out of his ### say "you wondered why my hands were so strong? It's because I've been working and lifting weights my entire life.".  I then walked off to the bar.

Long but  yes this resonates deeply with me.
Click to expand...
Neat.

 
Otis said:
Anyone else notice that in his meeting with Obama, Trump looked more somber than ever.  He was like a deer in the headlights. Like he just sat through a meeting with the president and the gravity of this finally hit him, and -- even for a guy with his bravado -- he walked out feeling like "holy ####, I'm woefully unprepared, what the hell have I gotten myself into."
Click to expand...
Yeah, it was comforting. Hopefully the rhetoric that got him there was just that. 

 
Jayrod said:
Not sure if this article has been posted or not, but it actually brought some things to light that I didn't even see living in rural white America.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/
Click to expand...
Really really good article.

One thing I don't get though is why that drives them to Trump in particular.  Trump is city.  He's New York.  I'm not sure anyone has seen him wearing anything other than a suit.  Born rich with everything handed to him.  Rides around in limos and on his private jet.  Not religious.  Has he even ever had a boss?  He even has the big orange hair of someone from the Hunger Games capitol.

He seems to be the absolute embodiment of everything the article claims they hate/fear.  Is it just because he said "I'm going to make jobs"?

 
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FreeBaGeL said:
Really really good article.

One thing I don't get though is why that drives them to Trump in particular.  Trump is city.  He's New York.  I'm not sure anyone has seen him wearing anything other than a suit.  Born rich with everything handed to him.  Rides around in limos and on his private jet.  Not religious.  Has he even ever had a boss?  He even has the big orange hair of someone from the Hunger Games capitol.

He seems to be the absolute embodiment of everything the article claims they hate/fear.  Is it just because he said "I'm going to make jobs"?
Click to expand...
It's cause he says what they are thinking. He's gamed the elites' system. Made money off of them. I'm pretty sure when he got called out on his own personal use of work visa employees he basically said 'well yeah. I took advantage of every rule I could.'  Even though restricting this program is a part of his platform. 

 
FreeBaGeL said:
Really really good article.

One thing I don't get though is why that drives them to Trump in particular.  Trump is city.  He's New York.  I'm not sure anyone has seen him wearing anything other than a suit.  Born rich with everything handed to him.  Rides around in limos and on his private jet.  Not religious.  Has he even ever had a boss?  He even has the big orange hair of someone from the Hunger Games capitol.

He seems to be the absolute embodiment of everything the article claims they hate/fear.  Is it just because he said "I'm going to make jobs"?
Click to expand...
He spoke to them like he understood them.  It's not much, but it was a lot more than the Democrats offered.

 
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