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***2017 National Baseball Hall of Fame Thread: Congrats to Casey Blake and Pat Burrell (1 Viewer)

Eephus

Eephus

Footballguy
Veteran's committee choices:  Harold Baines, Albert Belle, Will Clark, Orel Hershiser, Davey Johnson, Mark McGwire, Lou Piniella, John Schuerholz, Bud Selig and George Steinbrenner

Ford C. Frick Award nominees:  Gary Cohen, Jacques Doucet, Ken Harrelson, Pat Hughes, Bill King, Mike Krukow, Ned Martin and Dewayne Staats.

Potential first-timers for BBWAA ballot:  Danys Báez, Casey Blake, Milton Bradley, Russell Branyan, Pat Burrell, Orlando Cabrera, Mike Cameron, Juan Castro, Ramon Castro, Alex Cora, Craig Counsell, Doug Davis, J. D. Drew, Ryan Franklin, Ross Gload, Vladimir Guerrero, Carlos Guillén, Derrek Lee, Julio Lugo, Trever Miller, Melvin Mora, Magglio Ordóñez, Jorge Posada, Manny Ramirez, Édgar Rentería, Dennys Reyes, Arthur Rhodes, Iván Rodríguez, Aaron Rowand, Freddy Sanchez, Matt Stairs, Brett Tomko, Jason Varitek, Javier Vázquez, and Tim Wakefield.

 
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The Frick Award is a nice honor for the recipient but it's more of a popularity contest/lifetime achievement award than a pure measure of excellence.  It's hard for fans to judge the nominees unless they were fortunate to have heard all of them on a regular basis.

I've listened to a lot of Krukow and Bill King, some Hawk and Hughes and not enough Cohen to form an opinion.  Krukow is a cool dude and may get some sympathy votes due to his health problems.  Kruk delivers a lot of baseball info between his schtick but I think his partner Duane Kuiper is more deserving for mastering the rare transition from athlete to play-by-play man. 

Bill King is the best basketball radio announcer I've ever heard.  I don't remember his baseball work as much but my references to AL West clubs as the Oaklands, the Anaheims, etc. are my homage to him.

I listened to Hughes with Uecker when I would visit my family in Milwaukee.  He was a capable straight man for both Ueck and Santo.

My mind's ear can still hear Jacques Doucet's pronunciation of lehrREE wahkAIR on SportsCenter highlights.  This evolved into one of my inside jokes with Mrs. Eephus--we always yell toeKNEE pahkAIR when watching Spurs games.  I guess you had to be there.

 
  • Tim Raines
  • Jeff Bagwell
  • Barry Bonds
  • Roger Clemens
  • Mike Mussina
  • Billy Wagner
  • Ivan Rodriguez
  • Curt Schilling
  • Larry Walker
  • Edgar Martinez
 
I think only Selig will get elected by the Veteran's Committee.  I don't have a problem with that.  He'll always get a pass from me for restoring my birthright of Major League Baseball in Milwaukee.  He made everybody a lot of money which will probably outweigh memories of 1994 and the steroid era.  His induction speech will suck though.

None of the players jump out as sure fire HoFers.  McGwire has the best credentials but his candidacy is problematic.  Will Clark had a HoVG career but even as a homer, he's a notch below Big Mac.  Hershiser's career rWAR stack up well against HoF pitchers like Rube Waddell, Three Fingers Brown and Burleigh Grimes but is also around the same as active pitchers in Hamels and Greinke.  This typifies the problems created by some of the runaway Veteran's Committees in the 60s and 70s.

You can make a pretty good "If Gillick, then Schuerholz" argument but I personally set the bar really high for GMs and owners.

 
Northern Voice said:
TIM RAINES last year on the ballot, I believe. He is long overdue to get in.
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Hall of Very Good. All those years in Montreal inflated his numbers, that whole metric conversion that has to go on. 

Just kidding. 808 Stolen Bases is enough to get him in.Will probably be top-10 all time forever.

 
SBs alone aren't enough to get Raines into the Hall.  Only 9 of the top 20 in career SB have been inducted and this includes some pantheon guys like Wagner and Cobb who didn't need the steals.

But Raines is top 75 among position players in career rWAR.  Only a handful of players above him in this category aren't in the Hall.   His problem is that his career counting stats other than SB aren't eye-catching and he didn't rack up a lot of awards.  The latter was in part because of his perceived contributions in the traditional stats and because he played his prime in Montreal.  Being a contemporary of Rickey Henderson probably didn't help him either.

 
The BBWAA Hall of Fame ballot was announced on Monday with Manny Ramirez, Vladimir Guerrero and Ivan Rodriguez headlining the 19 new additions.
All three are seen as veritable locks for inclusion in Cooperstown. They'll be joined on the ballot by first-timers Casey Blake, Pat Burrell, Orlando Cabrera, Mike Cameron, J.D. Drew, Carlos Guillén, Derrek Lee, Melvin Mora, Magglio Ordóñez, Jorge Posada, Edgar Rentería, Arthur Rhodes, Freddy Sánchez, Matt Stairs, Jason Varitek and Tim Wakefield.
God bless Rotoworld's optimism. Manny doesn't sniff that place.

 
If I had a vote, my ballot would be:

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Vladimir Guerrero
Trevor Hoffman
Jeff Kent
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Manny Ramirez
Ivan Rodriguez
 

 
Bonds, Clemens, Bagwell, and Raines all deserve entry.

Bonds and Clemens are elite no doubters, but baseball writers are terrible people with grudges who don't understand the game.  Raines IMO was an elite talent and generally underrated, but also high on cocaine and everyone knows that is a performance drug. :rolleyes:

They don't let everyone in like football does, but how Bonds and Clemens aren't already in is sooooooooo ####### stupid.  One of the worst things about the game IMO. 

The HOF committee will somehow put that ####bird Schilling in before Clemens, because that's what they do. 

 
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Doctor Detroit said:
Link?

He's in, I'll CSTU bet you on that right now. 
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Just like Piazza took a few years I think Rodriguez does as well because of the steroid allegations that surrounded him. The rumors with him were worse than Piazza. No I'm not betting. It doesn't matter to me whether he gets in or not. I think he deserves to be a first ballot member. I just know how these fat #### sports writers think.

 
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shadyridr said:
Just like Piazza took a few years I think Rodriguez does as well because of the steroid allegations that surrounded him. The rumors with him were worse than Piazza. No I'm not betting. It doesn't matter to me whether he gets in or not. I think he deserves to be a first ballot member. I just know how these fat #### sports writers think.
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More inductees mean you'll have to spend milliseconds longer visiting the hall.

 
Bud Selig and John Schuerholz voted in by the Veteran's committee.  The various vet's committees have voted in 13 managers & executives vs. only 3 players (Santo, Joe Gordon and Deacon White) over the past decade.  I realize that's the only avenue to the Hall for the off-field contributors and I don't disagree with either 2017 inductee but it seems kind of screwed up to have them competing on the same ballot with players.

 
Eephus said:
Bud Selig and John Schuerholz voted in by the Veteran's committee.  The various vet's committees have voted in 13 managers & executives vs. only 3 players (Santo, Joe Gordon and Deacon White) over the past decade.  I realize that's the only avenue to the Hall for the off-field contributors and I don't disagree with either 2017 inductee but it seems kind of screwed up to have them competing on the same ballot with players.
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Pretty hypocritical to vote Bud Selig in yet not vote for guys like Bonds or Clemens. Didnt Selig allow the steroid era to happen?

 
Eephus said:
SBs alone aren't enough to get Raines into the Hall.  Only 9 of the top 20 in career SB have been inducted and this includes some pantheon guys like Wagner and Cobb who didn't need the steals.

But Raines is top 75 among position players in career rWAR.  Only a handful of players above him in this category aren't in the Hall.   His problem is that his career counting stats other than SB aren't eye-catching and he didn't rack up a lot of awards.  The latter was in part because of his perceived contributions in the traditional stats and because he played his prime in Montreal.  Being a contemporary of Rickey Henderson probably didn't help him either.
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All people should look at is the dude got on base more times that no-doubt first ballot guy Tony Gwynn (3935 to 3931).  Should have been in long ago.

 
some non-HOF guys ahead of Raines in career times on-base: Bobby Abreu, Rusty Staub, Jim Thome, Gary Sheffield

p.s. i'm a Raines supporter, but it's never as simple as a single stat

 
I'd have a hard time as a hall of fame voter. I wouldn't punish Bonds, Clemens etc.. for steroids, they'd be on my ballot for sure... but there's no ####### way that dbag Schilling would be anywhere near it, even though on numbers he probably qualifies as well, so basically I would be pulling out the "morality card" on Schilling but not the others which I'm sure means I'm a hypocrite, but there it is...

 
Northern Voice said:
I'd have a hard time as a hall of fame voter. I wouldn't punish Bonds, Clemens etc.. for steroids, they'd be on my ballot for sure... but there's no ####### way that dbag Schilling would be anywhere near it, even though on numbers he probably qualifies as well, so basically I would be pulling out the "morality card" on Schilling but not the others which I'm sure means I'm a hypocrite, but there it is...
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Take it to the politics forum, brah.

 
Northern Voice said:
I'd have a hard time as a hall of fame voter. I wouldn't punish Bonds, Clemens etc.. for steroids, they'd be on my ballot for sure... but there's no ####### way that dbag Schilling would be anywhere near it, even though on numbers he probably qualifies as well, so basically I would be pulling out the "morality card" on Schilling but not the others which I'm sure means I'm a hypocrite, but there it is...
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I'd put Bond and Clemens on mine and leave off Schilling, but I view it as more of a relative weight exercise between on-field performance and "character".  I think Schilling is only a borderline HOFer based on on-field performance; so, bad "character" does not help put him over the top.  While I think Bonds and Clemens have even greater character issues, their on-field performances rank them as among the best (and Bonds, the best) hitter and pitcher I've seen in my lifetime, and I think would have been first ballot HOFers even if they did not take steroids. While the character *ding* hurts them a bit, the on-field performance is too great to knock them out for me.

 
Don Quixote said:
Haven't seen it posted yet this year.... Thibs' tracker is here: link 
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These numbers usually run a bit hot because the smaller ballot types don't share, but Raines is looking pretty good so far.  I focus more on the net gains/losses, and he's already picked up 11 votes (meaning 11 people who left him off last year, have added him to their ballot this year), out of an estimated 20 needed in total.  

 
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Except Bonds and Clemens wouldn't have nearly as many counting stats as they do, if they didn't cheat. I hope they never get in the HOF

 
Annyong said:
Except Bonds and Clemens wouldn't have nearly as many counting stats as they do, if they didn't cheat. I hope they never get in the HOF
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The counting stats don't matter as much to me.  Even if you throw out Bonds post-1998 and Clemens post-Red Sox career (which are the times commonly pinpointed), they still would be HOFers.  Bonds would still have 3 MVP's and Clemens would have 3 Cy Young's.  There is not a single eligible person who has done that is not in the HOF besides Bonds and Clemens.

 
Bump for tonight's official announcement.

Excited that Raines is expected to be in. (I used to have a Raines "Starting Lineup" figure on my desk at one of my old jobs ... can't find it, but I found the Galarraga  :kicksrock: ). And I never was more sure that a player would make it big in the majors than when I watched Bagwell play for the University of Hartford.

Hope to see Hoffman, Wagner, Vlad and maybe even Walker get in eventually, even if it doesn't happen tonight.

 
Ballots Cast: 442 Needed for Election: 332

Votes Percentage
381 Jeff Bagwell 86.2%
380 Tim Raines 86.0%
336 Ivan Rodriguez 76.0%
327 Trevor Hoffman 74.0%
317 Vladimir Guerrero 71.7%
259 Edgar Martinez 58.6%
239 Roger Clemens 54.1%
238 Barry Bonds 53.8%
229 Mike Mussina 51.8%
199 Curt Schilling 45.0%
151 Lee Smith 34.2%
105 Manny Ramirez 23.8%
97 Larry Walker 21.9%
96 Fred McGriff 21.7%
74 Jeff Kent 16.7%
59 Gary Sheffield 13.3%
45 Billy Wagner 10.2%
38 Sammy Sosa 8.6%
17 Jorge Posada 3.8%
3 Magglio Ordonez 0.7%
2 Edgar Renteria 0.5%
2 Jason Varitek 0.5%
1 Tim Wakefield 0.2%
0 Casey Blake 0.0%
0 Pat Burrell 0.0%
0 Orlando Cabrera 0.0%
0 Mike Cameron 0.0%
0 J.D. Drew 0.0%
0 Carlos Guillen 0.0%
0 Derrek Lee 0.0%
0 Melvin Mora 0.0%
0 Arthur Rhodes 0.0%
0 Freddy Sanchez 0.0%
0 Matt Stairs 0.0% 

 
Eephus said:
Curious about the reasoning behind the one person who voted for Clemens but not Bonds
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Are we sure that they all received the votes from the same voters? Couldn't there be dozens that went one way, but not the other?

 
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How is Vladimir not 1st ballot. And I don't understand these writers making a statement with piazza but not pudge 

 
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