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How can people afford multiple kids with less than $57k/yr income (1 Viewer)

matttyl

Footballguy
In my job (insurance) I see people struggle financially to afford needed coverage, but still be able to afford multiple children.  I guess I'm curious in how they are able to do so. 

$57k a year is the median household income in the US.  Just spitballing some numbers, but lets say they pay $5k in federal taxes (less than 10% effective tax rate), and another 5% to state/local which is nearly another $3k.  Adds up to $8k, lowering their "take home" to $49k.  Lets say they are "responsible" and put away 8% of their pre-tax income to retirement, that's $4,560 a year.  The average employee's cost for family health insurance on a group plan is $5,277, which isn't deductible.  Throw in another $100/m for family dental and maybe vision coverage.

We're now down to under $38k - but this family of four lets say has paid their taxes, put away some money for retirement, and has health and dental coverage.  It's about $3,164 a month.  Just looked it up and saw that the average used car payment is just over $350 a month, but we'll round it off there - and say that the family only has one car that they are paying for (they might own another outright).  Down to $2,813/m.  Department of transportation says the average American drives 13,476 miles per year.  Even at 30 MPG that's 450 gallons of gas per driver.  1.5 driver per family and $2.16 average cost per gallon is $1,455 in gas.  Average cost of auto insurance is $800 - so 1.5 cars in our family would be $1,200 a year or exactly $100 per month.  We're under $2,600/m remaining - but the family now has a car or possibly two, and insurance for it.

Say they have a mortgage on a decent enough place at a good rate.  $1,200 a month fair for that, on average?  Down to $1,400/m.  Homeowner's insurance is another $1,000 a year on average, and we'll say another $1,500/yr in property taxes on average.  We've now got housing covered.  Power/gas/HOA/water....any other housing related monthly bill another $100-200 a month?  Yeah, give them TV and internet service.

But we're under $1,000 a month - with 4 mouths to feed, and clothe.  And we haven't touched on education (either future education for the kids, or still paying off the student debt of the parents).  Haven't touched on the first health situation where there is an our of pocket expense.  Haven't had the first unexpected housing expense.  Haven't given either parent any life insurance. 

Am I just way off base here?  How is the average American "getting by"?

 
Child Tax Credit and Earned Income Credit

Plus just the deduction for dependents too.

 
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-Most people aren't saving that much (if anything) for retirement at that stage in life.

-Instead of paying that money on homeowners insurance/property taxes - many people are renting.

-Some states don't have income tax and many people pay well less than 10% effective federal income tax

That being said, you didn't even include child care costs!!!

It's financially difficult having children no matter how you cut it.

 
Not to derail but my girl works for the state Health dept and her unit deals with free healthcare for its poorest citizens. She told me they got a phone call one time from a couple that was on state funded medical insurance and they were looking to starting a family and wanted to be sure everything was covered.  Neither parent worked but apparently starting a family took priority over finding a job. 

 
-Most people aren't saving that much (if anything) for retirement at that stage in life.

-Instead of paying that money on homeowners insurance/property taxes - many people are renting.

-Some states don't have income tax and many people pay well less than 10% effective federal income tax

That being said, you didn't even include child care costs!!!

It's financially difficult having children no matter how you cut it.
Yup. There are going to be a whole bunch of people living on cat food from our generation in about 20 years.

 
credit cards until they're maxed.

govt subsidies to the max.

my wife's childhood friend made the decision to have a 4th child because they could bilk more money out of the govt.  dad is an ac repair man.  mom doesn't work.  i'd be shocked if he makes more then 50- 60k.  they have new phones, drive nice/newer cars than we do, etc.  it makes me sick, working the system is a ####### scam.

 
credit cards until they're maxed.

govt subsidies to the max.

my wife's childhood friend made the decision to have a 4th child because they could bilk more money out of the govt.  dad is an ac repair man.  mom doesn't work.  i'd be shocked if he makes more then 50- 60k.  they have new phones, drive nice/newer cars than we do, etc.  it makes me sick, working the system is a ####### scam.
Unpack this a little bit.  How much money do they get for having kids.  And they get money even though one of them makes $50k?

 
-Most people aren't saving that much (if anything) for retirement at that stage in life.

-Instead of paying that money on homeowners insurance/property taxes - many people are renting.

-Some states don't have income tax and many people pay well less than 10% effective federal income tax

That being said, you didn't even include child care costs!!!

It's financially difficult having children no matter how you cut it.
Not debating people paying less than 10% for income tax but SS and Medicare is 7.65%...plus whatever additional payroll taxes their state might have.

 
Unpack this a little bit.  How much money do they get for having kids.  And they get money even though one of them makes $50k?
i don't know the ins and outs of it.  family of 6.  here are just the CA guideline for food stamp benefits, there are other federal benefits  as well.  

i do know they donate a lot to the church, they're mormon, which lowers their income 


INCOME 


CalFresh households, except   those containing an aged (60 or older) or disabled member or where all members receive cash assistance, are subject to gross and net income determination tests. Gross Income – all non-excludable income from any source including all earned income and all unearned income. The maximum gross allowed is 200% of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) [except for households who are sanctioned, households with certain convicted drug felons (until April 1, 2015) or households who have been convicted of an Intentional Program Violation].  If the household passes the gross income test, then the net income test is computed. Net income is computed by deducting the following, if applicable, from gross income. The resultant amount cannot exceed 100% of the FPL. 

  • Earned income has an allowable deduction of 20% (i.e., 80% of the gross earned income counts in the calculation of benefit levels). Examples of earned income include wages and salaries, striker's benefits, etc. 
  • Standard Deduction – A deduction allowed per household per month. $157 for households of 1–3 persons, $168 for 4 persons, $197 for 5 persons, and $226 for 6 or more persons (effective 10/1/16). 
  • Excess Shelter – A monthly shelter cost in excess of 50% of the household's income after all above deductions are considered. The excess shelter deduction must not exceed the current maximum of $517 (effective 10/1/16). 
  • Homeless Household Shelter – Available to homeless persons who are not receiving free shelter for the entire month. If the homeless shelter allowance is used, separate utility costs are not allowed because the homeless shelter allowance includes a utility component. The current allowance is $143 and remians unchanged (effective 10/1/16). 
  • Standard Utility Allowance (SUA) – Allowed for a household that incurs utility costs, which are separate and apart from the household's rent/mortgage payment. The current allowance is $389 (effective 10/1/16). 
  • Limited Utility Allowance (LUA) – Allowed for a household that incurs expenses for at least two separate utilities other than heating and cooling are eligible for a LUA. The LUA allowance is $122 (effective 10/1/16). 
  • Telephone Utility Allowance (TUA) - A household that is not eligible for the SUA or LUA but incurs a telephone expense or in its absence an equivalent form of communication, is eligible to receive a telephone deduction. The TUA allowance is unchanged and remains $20 (effective 10/1/16). 
  • Dependent Care – A household shall be entitled, with respect to expenses for dependent care, to a dependent care deduction for the actual cost of payments necessary for the care of a dependent if the care enables a household member to accept or continue employment, or training or education that is preparatory for employment. 
  • Medical Deduction – The portion of medical expenses, excluding special diets, in excess of the allowable amount of $35 per household per month (incurred by any household member who is elderly or disabled). 
Exempt Income 

  • In-Kind Benefits – Any gain or benefit that is not in the form of money (i.e., meals, clothing, housing provided by the employer, etc.) 
  • Vendor Payments – Money paid to a third party for a household expense by a person or organization outside of the household. 
  • Deferred Educational Loans 
  • Grants and Scholarships 
  • Cash donations from a charitable organization of not more than $300 in a calendar quarter. 
  • Income received too infrequently/irregularly to be reasonably anticipated but not more than $30 in a quarter.
 
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If you're relatively poor, higher education can be free or cheap if you utilize public community colleges and universities.  That's the way it is in Miami for the largest community college in the nation & any of the Florida public universities. If your kids are good students, it is even cheaper due to Bright Futures and similar programs.

 
Lets say they are "responsible" and put away 8% of their pre-tax income to retirement, that's $4,560 a year. 
Most of those people are not doing that. They can't afford to do it nor do they have the will to do it. They spend it as fast as it comes in.

 
 The average employee's cost for family health insurance on a group plan is $5,277, which isn't deductible.  Throw in another $100/m for family dental and maybe vision coverage.
holy ####. not sure where that comes from. for a family of 4, we're paying about $3000 per year. Dental + vision is something closer to $100 for the year than it is $100 per month.

lots and lots of people aren't paying into retirement. or, if they are, not 8% when they're only taking home a combined $57k a year.

i'd suspect many people in a combined household making $57k aren't strutting around with $350/month car payments. at least not for more than a couple years. probably riding around in an older used car that is already paid off, or they paid more like $5-10k total for. not $20+ thousand.

 
credit cards until they're maxed.

govt subsidies to the max.

my wife's childhood friend made the decision to have a 4th child because they could bilk more money out of the govt.  dad is an ac repair man.  mom doesn't work.  i'd be shocked if he makes more then 50- 60k.  they have new phones, drive nice/newer cars than we do, etc.  it makes me sick, working the system is a ####### scam.
More than likely they're just leveraged to the hilt.  Cars are leased.  Substantial personal debt.

 
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avg 2br apt in NYC to rent (family of 4, 2 kids share a room) is $4,300/month. the avg 3br (so each kid gets their own room) is well over 5k.

your median income just went almost entirely towards housing.

 
holy ####. not sure where that comes from. for a family of 4, we're paying about $3000 per year. Dental + vision is something closer to $100 for the year than it is $100 per month.

lots and lots of people aren't paying into retirement. or, if they are, not 8% when they're only taking home a combined $57k a year.

i'd suspect many people in a combined household making $57k aren't strutting around with $350/month car payments. at least not for more than a couple years. probably riding around in an older used car that is already paid off, or they paid more like $5-10k total for. not $20+ thousand.
before obama-care, we were paying $2,200/month for mediocre health insurance for a family of 4. (nyc) that's more than 25k/year.

with obama-care, we're paying about $700/month for similar.

trump-care? fingers' crossed, but hopes are low. probably cheaper to just pay out of pocket, tbh.

 
credit cards until they're maxed.

govt subsidies to the max.

my wife's childhood friend made the decision to have a 4th child because they could bilk more money out of the govt.  dad is an ac repair man.  mom doesn't work.  i'd be shocked if he makes more then 50- 60k.  they have new phones, drive nice/newer cars than we do, etc.  it makes me sick, working the system is a ####### scam.
You'll get the last laugh because they will never retire or retire in poverty.

 
avg 2br apt in NYC to rent (family of 4, 2 kids share a room) is $4,300/month. the avg 3br (so each kid gets their own room) is well over 5k.

your median income just went almost entirely towards housing.
they can get a 2br in morris county nj which has low crime and good schools for <2k/month and take the bus to work. 

 
If you live in an area with a high cost of living, make bets online.  If they win, $profit$.  If they lose, don't pay them.  Easy way to supplement your income right there.

 
before obama-care, we were paying $2,200/month for mediocre health insurance for a family of 4. (nyc) that's more than 25k/year.

with obama-care, we're paying about $700/month for similar.

trump-care? fingers' crossed, but hopes are low. probably cheaper to just pay out of pocket, tbh.
You self employed? 

 
  • No savings
  • Rent housing (not own) and living in a ####hole with possible housing assistance.
  • 1 car with 1 person that works (can't afford childcare, after all)
  • When you make that little and have that many dependants you're probably making money doing your taxes every year rather than paying any
  • No health/dental (probably use medicaid or something similar)
  • Cheap, unhealthy food
That leaves plenty to buy the 80" TV, newest iPhone, and the latest pair of Jordans.

 
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before obama-care, we were paying $2,200/month for mediocre health insurance for a family of 4. (nyc) that's more than 25k/year.

with obama-care, we're paying about $700/month for similar.

trump-care? fingers' crossed, but hopes are low. probably cheaper to just pay out of pocket, tbh.
yeah, but on an architect's salary 2200 is walking around money.

 
You left out section 8 housing assistance and other freebie programs.  Take a few sips from the old govt teat and work a little cash job on the side and you are ballin

 
We did it for a couple years with a 1 and 3 year old. 

Probably made 48K or something between the two of us (we both worked less than full time to stay around the kids - so we had no childcare expenses). So let's say 4K gross per month.

15% in total fed+state taxes. Down to $3400.

Pension plan was 5% of gross. Put away another 5% for kids school. Down to $3000.

Had 1 used car that we had no payments on. Got good gas mileage. We only drove it when we needed to (took bus, walked, rode bikes, etc.). Probably 600 miles a month tops. 30 mpg in our Mazda. Car insurance was 800 or so a year. So gas + insurance was maybe 100 bucks a month. Also had a metro pass at 100 bucks a month. So down to $2800.

Health insurance was 125 bucks a pay period for us. So 250 a month. Didnt have dental or vision. Down to $2550.

Mortgage payment + property taxes was $1200 a month. Homeowners was like 75 a month. No cable. Internet + cell phones probably 150 a month. Heat/electricity/water another 150 a month. Down to $975.

:shrug:

Two little kids dont each much. We had no family in town so we weren't going out much. Groceries probably ran us 300 bucks a month or so. And any side money we made (we both did freelance design stuff) was just some extra spending money.

 
Lets say they are "responsible" and put away 8% of their pre-tax income to retirement, that's $4,560 a year. 
Less than 25% of Americans contribute to their 401k and one in three have $0 saved for retirement.  So let's say they probably aren't "responsible."

 
Less than 25% of Americans contribute to their 401k and one in three have $0 saved for retirement.  So let's say they probably aren't "responsible."
That is truly horrifying.  I'd say it sounds unreasonable but in the 3k+ employee company that I work for less than 25% of the people put even 2% away to get the match from the company.  If you adjusted the numbers for government employees (with pensions), I wonder what % really have nothing saved or will have nothing coming in besides SS.  25%?

 
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That is truly horrifying.  I'd say it sounds unreasonable but in the 3k+ employee company that I work for less than 25% of the people put even 2% away to get the match from the company.  If you adjusted the numbers for government employees (with pensions), I wonder what % really have nothing saved or will have nothing coming in besides SS.  25%?
I'd say it's more than 25%. 

Even as the traditional company-funded pension has nearly disappeared and even as Social Security benefits are being slowly eroded, most workers haven’t saved enough to offset those losses to their retirement income. Seventy percent of couples have less than $50,000 saved.
Link

We've talked about this in the Frontline retirement thread, one of the best threads in this forum, and it's pretty scary.  Like I said, I spent a lot of time in Eastern Europe after the wall came down.  There isn't much worse than seeing elderly people begging in mass and stories of them freezing to death because they couldn't afford to heat their homes.  That's why Social Security is NEVER going away. 

 
Guy I know has 7 kids with the 8th on the way.  His wife is a stay-at-home mom and home-schools all the kids  He makes about $75K per year.  I don't know how he does it, but according to him, he's not in debt.  

 
Guy I know has 7 kids with the 8th on the way.  His wife is a stay-at-home mom and home-schools all the kids  He makes about $75K per year.  I don't know how he does it, but according to him, he's not in debt.  
Yeah because he hasnt spent a dime on birth control. 

 
I'd say it's more than 25%. 

Link

We've talked about this in the Frontline retirement thread, one of the best threads in this forum, and it's pretty scary.  Like I said, I spent a lot of time in Eastern Europe after the wall came down.  There isn't much worse than seeing elderly people begging in mass and stories of them freezing to death because they couldn't afford to heat their homes.  That's why Social Security is NEVER going away. 
And nor should it.  My in-laws survive and actually thrive with SS making up 75% of their monthly income.  They don't have a house payment and only have one car payment.  They bring in about $3,500 per month and that's easily enough to pay their medical, taxes, car payment, home owners, groceries, routine bills, and eating out.  Plus they take a train trip or cruise like 2x/year.

 
I'd say it's more than 25%. 

Link

We've talked about this in the Frontline retirement thread, one of the best threads in this forum, and it's pretty scary.  Like I said, I spent a lot of time in Eastern Europe after the wall came down.  There isn't much worse than seeing elderly people begging in mass and stories of them freezing to death because they couldn't afford to heat their homes.  That's why Social Security is NEVER going away. 
Footballguys are well over the 90th percentile, amirite?

 
I've often wondered the same thing.  Our household income has allowed us to raise two kids very comfortably, but we're way above the national median because I'm a FBG.  As others have pointed out, folks in this income category probably aren't saving anything for retirement, their housing payments are lower than what you're citing (our mortgage payment is under $900 per month, admittedly purchased quite some time ago), and they're probably taking on debt.  Their kids are not going to private colleges or even public flagships without a ####load of financial aid.  

 
$57k?

I don't know how people in NYC do it for less than 5x at. Floppo laid out housing. Now imagine every single thing you do is also much more expensive. The school system is a nightmare to top it off. 

 
Was just about to say, this likely depends on where you live. 

There are 3 bedroom, 1300 square foot apartments where I live that you can rent for about $750 that are not all that bad.  I lived in one a while ago and had no issues with any aspect of it. 

Food can be SUPER cheap if you aren't health conscious, which most people aren't. 

Clothes can be had super cheap also unless you have to have name brand stuff. 

 
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Location is the main factor as others have stated.  I supported a wife and 2x kids on 35K in Michigan.  I'm a step up supporting a wife and 3 kids in North Carolina on 80K.  The quality of life is definitely better, but the 45K difference doesnt buy as much as I'd thought. 

You're fine with kids at 55K.

 
$57k a year is the median household income in the US.
Not sure where you're getting this number from. It's not way off from anything I see, but just not sure where it's from.

Regardless, median household income is not the number to use if you're wondering how someone raises a family because "households" includes a bunch of singles raising no kids. Median family income is about $68k and median married-couple family income is $82k. Only about 25% of married-couple families are under $50k.

Link

 
People are stupid. 
And the super savers drag the mean up. If you look at the median (50% of people/families have more, 50% have less) it's even scarier.

Whereas the average savings of a family with members between 32 and 37 is $31,644, the median savings is less than $500. At the other end, the average savings of families close to retirement — ages 56 to 61 — is $163,557. The median is $17,000.
50% of families that are roughly 5-15 years from retirement have less than 17K saved.

 

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