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Crystalsteam99

Gore Hall of Fame or NOT?

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9 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

I'm not really looking to make a big deal out of any of this, but who did Adrian Peterson have to help him on offense? Barry Sanders? Walter Payton? Most seasons, those guys WERE the offense.

Percy Harvin? Brett Favre for awhile? And if I remember correctly some of those run n' shoot Lions teams from the 90s weren't too shabby outside of Barry sanders and were frequently top 10 offenses. Your turn now. Name a QB or WR that made the pro bowl while on a team w/ Gore.

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On 12/6/2016 at 10:41 AM, Joe Summer said:

Amazing that he was once considered the 5th best RB on his college team (behind Clinton Portis, Willie McGahee, Najeh Davenport, and Jarrett Payton).

Doubt this was ever true, at least not according to his teammates. Gore was something of a legend prior to his ACL tears at Miami.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/18/sports/football/49ers-frank-gore-was-a-special-back-at-miami.html

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On 12/9/2016 at 5:11 PM, Just Win Baby said:

Bettis had a stronger resume, and it isn't close:

Bettis

1993 NFL AP Offensive Rookie of the Year
1996 NFL AP Comeback Player of the Year
2001 NFL Walter Payton Man of the Year
2 1st team All Pro selections, 1 second team All Pro selection
6 Pro Bowl selections
#6 all time rushing yards
#11 all time rushing TDs
1 championship

Gore

0 major awards
1 second team All Pro selection
5 Pro Bowl selections
#8 all time rushing yards
#24 all time rushing TDs
0 championships

Plus, Bettis played his entire career for a historically popular franchise on the East Coast, and he was very popular with the media. That stuff also helps.

And with all that, Bettis was arguably a borderline case.

Bettis was 14 for 43yds and no TDs in his SB win. Gore went 19 for 110 and 1 TD in his SB loss... yet because his team lost it's supposed to count against him? C'mon.

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Especially in football, the ability to play at a high level for an extremely long time IS an ability of note.  Gore no doubt had to work exceptionally hard to stay in shape and keep winning opportunities against younger guys by being better on the field.

Combine that with solid compiled numbers and I’m willing to see him as barely elite enouh to be admitted.  But I get the argument the other way.

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4 hours ago, chinawildman said:

Percy Harvin? Brett Favre for awhile? And if I remember correctly some of those run n' shoot Lions teams from the 90s weren't too shabby outside of Barry sanders and were frequently top 10 offenses. Your turn now. Name a QB or WR that made the pro bowl while on a team w/ Gore.

The Lions offense was good because of Barry, but they did have a couple good players like Herman Moore. 

TY Hilton.  

It's kind of funny that the only years Andrew Luck didn't make the pro bowl were when gore was on the team.

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14 minutes ago, Arodin said:

Especially in football, the ability to play at a high level for an extremely long time IS an ability of note.  Gore no doubt had to work exceptionally hard to stay in shape and keep winning opportunities against younger guys by being better on the field.

Combine that with solid compiled numbers and I’m willing to see him as barely elite enouh to be admitted.  But I get the argument the other way.

This wins the day imo. 12 straight seasons with over 1200 combined yards is downright impressive. 

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He's #3 all-time. He will be #3 all-time forever because no RB is ever going to approach those #s again. He's HOF all day. Way lesser players are in because they played with other HOF players. He mostly played with ham & eggers. Thurman Thomas being one of many.

On 2 surgically repaired knees.

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15 hours ago, dgreen said:

I think it's clear that adding on years to your career should not hurt someone's bid for the HOF. They shouldn't be punished for hanging around, no matter how bad those extra years are. What's not as clear to me, and where I think there is decent disagreement, is how much add-on years should help someone's HOF bid. In Gore's case, he'll probably end up adding 2500 rushing yards and 500 receiving yards in seasons 13, 14, and 15. I don't know what to do with that. Ignore it or consider it as part of his resume? Without these last three seasons, he's 10th all time in rushing and 12th all time in yards from scrimmage. Both of those rankings are in the vicinity of where you start to see a drop off among HOFers and non-HOFers.

Gore seems comparable to some HOFers who then outshine him in terms of awards or playoff success. He also seems comparable to some non-HOFers who most people don't give a second thought to in regards to the HOF. In my mind, Gore is just missing something. I don't think he should be immediately dismissed as I think his resume is a little better than most people think. But, after analyzing what he's accomplished, I just can't find that one thing to put him over the top for me.

Exactly. And you just can’t hang around the nfl like maybe a SP can in baseball. They ruthlessly cut people all the time. 

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For the fourth time, Gore is getting in. But consider . . .

Based on YFS, he has had one season ranked in the Top 5 one time in 15 seasons when he ranked 4th. That’s one season when he almost ranked in the Top 10% of starters at his position in the league (out of 32). Top 25% would be ranking in the Top 8. He accomplished that two other times. So 3 seasons out of 15 he ranked in the Top 25% of starting RB’s in YFS. Since there are 32 teams, it would take ranking in the Top 16 to be considered above average. Gore has been that 12 times in 15 seasons. So by definition he has been an above average back for a very long time. His average ranking in YFS for RB’s in his 15 seasons? 16th.

Of the top 350 seasons in NFL history in terms of YFS, Frank Gore has one of them. Another example of not being an elite performer. Sure, availability and consistency are good qualities, but not necessarily signs of an elite performer. 

Looking at three intervals of 5 seasons each over Gore’s career, the most similar totals in those intervals were Brian Westbrook (05-09), Chris Johnson (10-14 but AFTER his best seasons), and Carlos Hyde (15-19). IMO, none of those three players look to be HOF caliber in those years, but adding them up and putting them under one player instead (Gore) suddenly makes those numbers HOF worthy?

Gore essentially is benefiting from hanging around for 5 extra years as a below average back and it’s padding his career numbers and that’s pushed him way up the career totals list. Good for him that he has stuck around and still draws a paycheck. But IMO I don’t think anyone would suggest his totals and performance has been HOF worthy looking just at his last 5 years. Would people have been as supportive of Gore as a HOFer after only 10 seasons? In essence, Gore is going to get in based on five years of mediocrity tacked on to what otherwise was a Hall of Very Good career. 

That’s what the numbers say. Nice guy, good locker room presence, good team mate, didn’t make noise. All good qualities, but none of which to me carry a ton of weight. Plenty of players have had those qualities and they won’t get a single HOF vote. 

As far as the teams and roster composition over his career, it’s quite possible that if there were better skill position players around he may not have gotten the 4,000 touches he compiled over his career. Perhaps he got the ball so much because there weren’t better options. It didn’t turn out that way so we’ll never know an alternate career path for Gore. 

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9 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

No idea why that is hall of fame worthy.  Is he playing great?  Playing "great for 36" is very irrelevant to me.

If some dude plays till age 60 and ends up #1 rushing all time while never having 1000 yards is he a hall of famer?

Never having 1,000 yards? I get that you're exaggerating but that doesn't apply to Gore. 

If a 60yo nets 800 yards, after getting over 1200 every year since he was 23? I think he belongs in the hall.

Do you really not have any idea why the #3 rusher, who has the 4th most all time yards from scrimmage, belongs among the 28 running backs already in the hall?

13 hours ago, Leroy Hoard said:

Along those lines,  Darren Sproles also should be considered.

Yeah, no. Darren is barely in the top 200 yfs. 

15 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

I’m normally pro- HoF when it’s close but I’m a no on Gore. Quantity and quality is an important balance for sure but I think he’s too much quantity and not enough quality. And I was a massive Gore supporter coming into the league. 

What makes a quality year?  Just glancing at his stats he seems to have 5 high quality years and 12 Fair to high quality (imo).

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9 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

No idea why that is hall of fame worthy.  Is he playing great?  Playing "great for 36" is very irrelevant to me.

If some dude plays till age 60 and ends up #1 rushing all time while never having 1000 yards is he a hall of famer?

Is the 60 year old dude good enough to play and help a team win? Plus Gore has had many 1000 yard seasons. So what you are saying is pretty irrelevant. For a 36 year old, Gore is still playing pretty damn good. He played great when he was younger for many many years.

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3 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

For the fourth time, Gore is getting in. But consider . . .

Based on YFS, he has had one season ranked in the Top 5 one time in 15 seasons when he ranked 4th. That’s one season when he almost ranked in the Top 10% of starters at his position in the league (out of 32). Top 25% would be ranking in the Top 8. He accomplished that two other times. So 3 seasons out of 15 he ranked in the Top 25% of starting RB’s in YFS. Since there are 32 teams, it would take ranking in the Top 16 to be considered above average. Gore has been that 12 times in 15 seasons. So by definition he has been an above average back for a very long time. His average ranking in YFS for RB’s in his 15 seasons? 16th.

Of the top 350 seasons in NFL history in terms of YFS, Frank Gore has one of them. Another example of not being an elite performer. Sure, availability and consistency are good qualities, but not necessarily signs of an elite performer. 

Looking at three intervals of 5 seasons each over Gore’s career, the most similar totals in those intervals were Brian Westbrook (05-09), Chris Johnson (10-14 but AFTER his best seasons), and Carlos Hyde (15-19). IMO, none of those three players look to be HOF caliber in those years, but adding them up and putting them under one player instead (Gore) suddenly makes those numbers HOF worthy?

Gore essentially is benefiting from hanging around for 5 extra years as a below average back and it’s padding his career numbers and that’s pushed him way up the career totals list. Good for him that he has stuck around and still draws a paycheck. But IMO I don’t think anyone would suggest his totals and performance has been HOF worthy looking just at his last 5 years. Would people have been as supportive of Gore as a HOFer after only 10 seasons? In essence, Gore is going to get in based on five years of mediocrity tacked on to what otherwise was a Hall of Very Good career. 

That’s what the numbers say. Nice guy, good locker room presence, good team mate, didn’t make noise. All good qualities, but none of which to me carry a ton of weight. Plenty of players have had those qualities and they won’t get a single HOF vote. 

As far as the teams and roster composition over his career, it’s quite possible that if there were better skill position players around he may not have gotten the 4,000 touches he compiled over his career. Perhaps he got the ball so much because there weren’t better options. It didn’t turn out that way so we’ll never know an alternate career path for Gore. 

It's funny that in order to argue against him you need to say he's barely better than 3 very good players, combined.  

12 seasons of being an above average starting RB. There are roughly 100-150 running backs in the league any year, with a whole lot more wanting to get in. He's been roughly top 10% consistently over the past 15 years. 

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#3 all time is all that matters.  Is he worthy?  Maybe, maybe not.  Will he get in?  Without a doubt.

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42 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

What makes a quality year?  Just glancing at his stats he seems to have 5 high quality years and 12 Fair to high quality (imo).

Not that it’s about fantasy but fantasy and stats and the HoF certainly overlap. Gore was never better than the 4th RB in a season and was only top 5 twice, top 10 thrice. That’s just not HoF caliber imo but he will get in.

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33 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

It's funny that in order to argue against him you need to say he's barely better than 3 very good players, combined.  

12 seasons of being an above average starting RB. There are roughly 100-150 running backs in the league any year, with a whole lot more wanting to get in. He's been roughly top 10% consistently over the past 15 years. 

STARTING running backs. You can get crazy with numbers as much as you want at any position. For example, between rostered, practice squad, special teams guys listed at RB, and players on IR there could be 200+ guys hanging around the league at RB. Same for any other positions. If you start including back ups, bench players, and wannabes, a case could be made that any RB that played in the league 10 years should be a HOFer just based on how many players in the league didn’t start. 

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Weirdly ... Gore might be a Hall-of-Fame player who didn't have the peaks of a Hall-of-Fame career.

Put another way: a Hall-of-Fame-caliber player who never really quite racked up Hall-of-Fame-caliber seasons (except his second).

What hurts him, too, is playing in a passing era. The QBs and pass-catchers have gotten the glory over the past 15 years or so. Gore's stats in the 1960s and 1970s would be widely considered a slam-dunk HOFer. And no one would be asking about championships won, awards won, etc.

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Being able to maintain a very high floor over a longer period than almost every back is able to even make an NFL roster is remarkable.  To keep beating out younger fresher guys is remarkable.  He kept earning the opportunity.  He also did well playing for some bad and mediocre teams.  Imagine if he had the Line that Emmett Smith had...

He is HOF worthy

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15 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Weirdly ... Gore might be a Hall-of-Fame player who didn't have the peaks of a Hall-of-Fame career.

Put another way: a Hall-of-Fame-caliber player who never really quite racked up Hall-of-Fame-caliber seasons (except his second).

What hurts him, too, is playing in a passing era. The QBs and pass-catchers have gotten the glory over the past 15 years or so. Gore's stats in the 1960s and 1970s would be widely considered a slam-dunk HOFer. And no one would be asking about championships won, awards won, etc.

There are a number of things that make this one hard to accept. For starters, in the 60's and 70's, teams played fewer games. The 60's started with 12 games per season and the 70's started with 14 games a season. So yeah, totals in a 16-game season would look really good compared to guys that played 12 games.

Most people in here are debating how Gore did compared among his peers from year to year . . . not how he did compared to players in different eras. The assumption should be made that if he had the 12th highest total in rushing yards in 2012, he would still have had the 12th highest total in rushing yards in any other season (1964, 1973, etc.).

IMO, you can't just take his actual total in 2010 and plug it into the 1971 league leaders. That's like saying Vinny Testaverde would have been a slam dunk HOFer if he put up 46,000 passing yards in the 70's. Yeah, he would have . . . because no one passed for more than 23,000 yards in the 70's.

In Gore's first 10 seasons, he rushed for 11,000 yards in 148 games. He lead the league in total rushing yards across those exact years (2005 - 2014), mostly because other player's careers did not fully overlap with Gore's. Yes, had Gore's first 10 years (in 16 game seasons) happened exactly in 1970-1979, he would have had more rushing yards than OJ Simpson did in that same time frame (OJ had 10,500 yards in 122 games). But does anyone think Simpson would not have been able to generate 500 more yards if he had been able to play in another 26 games?

And the bigger problem would be that coming into the league with two ACL tears, Gore's career most likely would never have happened in the first place, as most guys never got onto the field after one ACL tear, let alone two, in that era.

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13 minutes ago, Rove! said:

Being able to maintain a very high floor over a longer period than almost every back is able to even make an NFL roster is remarkable.  To keep beating out younger fresher guys is remarkable.  He kept earning the opportunity.  He also did well playing for some bad and mediocre teams.  Imagine if he had the Line that Emmett Smith had...

He is HOF worthy

For starters, we can't go to "if-he-only-played-on-the-90's-Cowboys" ville. We just can't. That could probably be said about any player that played at the time. Just like we can't say that "if-Gore-only-played-on the-Patriots-he-would-have-won-3-Super-Bowls . . . because he didn't. In fact, the combined record of Gore's teams has been 116-118-1 so far. If the Bills go 4-1 the rest of the way and he retires, he would end up on teams that went 120-119-1 in the regular season.

Maybe a better analogy for Gore would be to use baseball. Let's say Gore put up a year with a .280 average with 160 hits, 22 home runs, and 85 RBI as an outfielder. Not bad, not great, and probably above average. But multiply that times 20 years and now that player would have 3,000 hits, 400 home runs, and 1700 RBI to go along with the same .280 average. Those numbers are right in line with Dave Winfield's career. His numbers year to year look good but not great, but his career numbers look fantastic.

Or try this one. Say there is a company with a sales team. Maybe they have 32 people in sales or 100 people, take your pick. Each year, they reward the Top 3 sales people with sales awards. In 15 years, Gore would not have won one of those awards. Lots of other sales guys may have won multiple sales awards, yet Gore did not win any. At the end of his sales career, Gore might get a meritorious service award, but he was never one of their top producers. In NFL terms, he may have been Top 10 at his position three times in his 15 years in the league. IMO, that puts him in a very good for a very long time category. Clearly what I think won't make a bit of difference, as he's going into the HOF.

But in my mind, he belongs in the Hall of Very Good. There are a lot of strong players in the Hall of Very Good. That's where I would slot him (and many other actual HOFers). But in MY Hall of Fame, I have first and second tier guys in the HOF and third tier players in the Hall of Very Good. The actual NFL HOF doesn't make that distinction. Either way, he had a great career (as many have noted, RB's don't play 15 years). Personally, even if he is the nicest guy in the world, I don't think his yearly numbers were elite, and when retelling the story of the league's history, there's not a lot to tell about the teams he's been on. Not his fault, but still not untrue. The way HOF voters tend to vote, they like guys from winning teams . . . especially teams that won multiple times. Again, not Gore's fault, but it is what it is.

Henry Ellard also had a solid 15-year career and was even a two time All Pro. When he retired, he was third all time in receiving yards. Yet he's not in the HOF and has the same problems as Gore (didn't play on great teams in his time with the Rams and Redskins). Although I guess Ellard stands a chance this year with the expanded HOF class of up to 10 veteran players going in this year (NFL Year 100).

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30 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

For starters, we can't go to "if-he-only-played-on-the-90's-Cowboys" ville. We just can't. That could probably be said about any player that played at the time. Just like we can't say that "if-Gore-only-played-on the-Patriots-he-would-have-won-3-Super-Bowls . . . because he didn't. In fact, the combined record of Gore's teams has been 116-118-1 so far. If the Bills go 4-1 the rest of the way and he retires, he would end up on teams that went 120-119-1 in the regular season.

Maybe a better analogy for Gore would be to use baseball. Let's say Gore put up a year with a .280 average with 160 hits, 22 home runs, and 85 RBI as an outfielder. Not bad, not great, and probably above average. But multiply that times 20 years and now that player would have 3,000 hits, 400 home runs, and 1700 RBI to go along with the same .280 average. Those numbers are right in line with Dave Winfield's career. His numbers year to year look good but not great, but his career numbers look fantastic.

Or try this one. Say there is a company with a sales team. Maybe they have 32 people in sales or 100 people, take your pick. Each year, they reward the Top 3 sales people with sales awards. In 15 years, Gore would not have won one of those awards. Lots of other sales guys may have won multiple sales awards, yet Gore did not win any. At the end of his sales career, Gore might get a meritorious service award, but he was never one of their top producers. In NFL terms, he may have been Top 10 at his position three times in his 15 years in the league. IMO, that puts him in a very good for a very long time category. Clearly what I think won't make a bit of difference, as he's going into the HOF.

But in my mind, he belongs in the Hall of Very Good. There are a lot of strong players in the Hall of Very Good. That's where I would slot him (and many other actual HOFers). But in MY Hall of Fame, I have first and second tier guys in the HOF and third tier players in the Hall of Very Good. The actual NFL HOF doesn't make that distinction. Either way, he had a great career (as many have noted, RB's don't play 15 years). Personally, even if he is the nicest guy in the world, I don't think his yearly numbers were elite, and when retelling the story of the league's history, there's not a lot to tell about the teams he's been on. Not his fault, but still not untrue. The way HOF voters tend to vote, they like guys from winning teams . . . especially teams that won multiple times. Again, not Gore's fault, but it is what it is.

Henry Ellard also had a solid 15-year career and was even a two time All Pro. When he retired, he was third all time in receiving yards. Yet he's not in the HOF and has the same problems as Gore (didn't play on great teams in his time with the Rams and Redskins). Although I guess Ellard stands a chance this year with the expanded HOF class of up to 10 veteran players going in this year (NFL Year 100).

Ellard had 7 years over 1k total. 10 years under. Gore was under 1k only his rookie year, last year and probably this year. 12/15 vs 7/17. 

Winfield isn't an especially good analogy considering he doesn't rank high in any category for his career. Although he is in the HoF.  Cal ripkin is probably a better analogy. He never was elite on the stat sheet, but his longevity was key to his greatness.

 

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13 hours ago, shadyridr said:

Because what he is doing at 36 is unheard of in the NFL

Hmmm, I’d have to do the research to see if another 36-year old RB averaged a whopping 49 rushing yards per game (which is what Gore is doing this season). 

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2 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

Ellard had 7 years over 1k total. 10 years under. Gore was under 1k only his rookie year, last year and probably this year. 12/15 vs 7/17. 

Winfield isn't an especially good analogy considering he doesn't rank high in any category for his career. Although he is in the HoF.  Cal ripkin is probably a better analogy. He never was elite on the stat sheet, but his longevity was key to his greatness.

 

Not sure why people are fascinated by 1,000 yard seasons. It's a random data point. On a different front, I also never figured our why a RUSHING yard is somehow more valuable than a RECEIVING yard when it comes to RB's. A yard is a yard. Sure, if that yard is at the goal line it might be harder to gain, but yards are yards.

Everyone will have their own definition of what a great season is. For me with RB's, it's 1,500 YFS. Gore has had 3 of those (in 15 seasons). Emmitt had 7. Sanders had 9. Payton had 10. Jim Brown had 7 in 9 seasons (playing in 12 or 14 games a year). Tomlinson had 8. Peterson has had 6. Faulk had 7 (and missed another by 10 yards). Dickerson only had 5 . . . but 4 of them were over 2,000 yards. To me, those are the upper crust of RB's. 

I don't see Gore in that class, which is not to poo poo his career. He had an excellent career . . . just not someone that stands out to me as a true legendary RB. 

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5 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Hmmm, I’d have to do the research to see if another 36-year old RB averaged a whopping 49 rushing yards per game (which is what Gore is doing this season). 

Most fantasy points by a RB 36 or older . . .

Marcus Allen, 36, 164 fantasy points
Marcus Allen, 37, 125 fantasy points
John Riggins, 36, 117 fantasy points
Frank Gore, 36, 73 fantasy points

Just because Gore is still playing doesn't mean he is still a valuable contributor on the field. In fact, the opposite could be true. Giving Gore carries could be impeding the progress of other younger, faster backs (like Singletary in BUF or Mack in IND or Drake in MIA).

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27 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Most fantasy points by a RB 36 or older . . .

Marcus Allen, 36, 164 fantasy points
Marcus Allen, 37, 125 fantasy points
John Riggins, 36, 117 fantasy points
Frank Gore, 36, 73 fantasy points

Just because Gore is still playing doesn't mean he is still a valuable contributor on the field. In fact, the opposite could be true. Giving Gore carries could be impeding the progress of other younger, faster backs (like Singletary in BUF or Mack in IND or Drake in MIA).

All true. It’s worth mentioning that Allen and Riggins are both in the Hall. I still have my doubts as to whether Gore should make it, but I also have no doubt now that he will. 

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Gore is the dictionary definition of a compiler. Being 3rd in career rushing yards means nothing to me. He had a few good seasons, 1 great one, and about 8-9 average ones.

There are a minimum of 10 RB's over the last 20 years I'd put at or above Gore, but I greatly value short term high end elite play, over a long career of mostly mediocrity. Its my same argument against Isaac Bruce and Philip Rivers, and why I never liked Tim Brown going in. 

In my opinion the HOF should be for elite players, not good players who hung around forever. If you were never in the conversation for best player at your position at any point in your career, you shouldn't be a HOF'er. Gore was never in that conversation. He peaked in 2006, and was at best the 3rd best(and maybe was 4th or 5th) RB that season. 

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8 minutes ago, travdogg said:

Gore is the dictionary definition of a compiler. Being 3rd in career rushing yards means nothing to me. He had a few good seasons, 1 great one, and about 8-9 average ones.

There are a minimum of 10 RB's over the last 20 years I'd put at or above Gore, but I greatly value short term high end elite play, over a long career of mostly mediocrity. Its my same argument against Isaac Bruce and Philip Rivers, and why I never liked Tim Brown going in. 

In my opinion the HOF should be for elite players, not good players who hung around forever. If you were never in the conversation for best player at your position at any point in your career, you shouldn't be a HOF'er. Gore was never in that conversation. He peaked in 2006, and was at best the 3rd best(and maybe was 4th or 5th) RB that season. 

Rivers is an interesting case. Clearly he hasn't won anything over his career, but his individual per year and career numbers are pretty solid. 7 seasons in the Top 5 in passing yards, 4 in passing TD, 5 in passer rating, and 6 in Y/A (including #1 in 3 straight seasons). If he plays another season, he will end up Top 5 in passing yards and passing TD and Top 10 in passer rating (all of those FOR NOW). Not his fault he played when Brady, Peyton, and Brees all played. I don't think he is as much as a compiler as some other recent players (like Gore and Eli . . . and let's not GO THERE with Eli).

And whoever brought up Stafford as a future HOFer because he was the youngest QB to throw for 40K yards . . . really? The Lions have gone 69-79-1 in the regular season and 0-3 in the post season with him as QB. His other career numbers aren't anything to write home about (either career totals or efficiency wise). His QB rating is only 16th among active QB's.

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7 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Rivers is an interesting case. Clearly he hasn't won anything over his career, but his individual per year and career numbers are pretty solid. 7 seasons in the Top 5 in passing yards, 4 in passing TD, 5 in passer rating, and 6 in Y/A (including #1 in 3 straight seasons). If he plays another season, he will end up Top 5 in passing yards and passing TD and Top 10 in passer rating (all of those FOR NOW). Not his fault he played when Brady, Peyton, and Brees all played. I don't think he is as much as a compiler as some other recent players (like Gore and Eli . . . and let's not GO THERE with Eli).

And whoever brought up Stafford as a future HOFer because he was the youngest QB to throw for 40K yards . . . really? The Lions have gone 69-79-1 in the regular season and 0-3 in the post season with him as QB. His other career numbers aren't anything to write home about (either career totals or efficiency wise). His QB rating is only 16th among active QB's.

Agreed that Stafford can't be serious. He's a great example of why career counting stats shouldn't hold much weight. 40K yards of mostly empty calories. I'm not even sure Stafford can be called a very good QB, let alone HOF'er. He's been replacement level for much of his career.

I think the Rivers case is hurt a lot by him wilting in big moments pretty consistently, its been magnified of late, but its been a problem most of his career. In addition to the Manning, Brady, Brees trio, I'd also put Rodgers ahead of him, and would argue Wilson, Ryan and Newton as well. When you factor in guys like Mahomes, Jackson, and other young QB's who have ceilings well ahead of Rivers, its tough to make a case for Rivers.

Looking at Rivers, in a lot of ways, he's Tony Romo with more longevity. Romo has slightly better rate stats, but both shared a knack for picking really bad times to make poor plays.

I'd call Rivers a compiler, but that isn't an insult. It just means his career stats are more about longevity than quality of play. I'd say the same of Warren Moon.

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1 hour ago, -OZ- said:

Ellard had 7 years over 1k total. 10 years under. Gore was under 1k only his rookie year, last year and probably this year. 12/15 vs 7/17. 

Winfield isn't an especially good analogy considering he doesn't rank high in any category for his career. Although he is in the HoF.  Cal ripkin is probably a better analogy. He never was elite on the stat sheet, but his longevity was key to his greatness.

 

:lmao: at comparing Gore to Ripken. Ripken won 2 MVPs, ROY, 2 Gold Gloves, 8 Silver Sluggers, and a World Series and was selected for 19 All Star games. 

Gore is not remotely comparable.

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RB may be the hardest position in any sport to be a compiler....every opportunity is earned, not granted for showing up every year

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3 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Most fantasy points by a RB 36 or older . . .

Marcus Allen, 36, 164 fantasy points
Marcus Allen, 37, 125 fantasy points
John Riggins, 36, 117 fantasy points
Frank Gore, 36, 73 fantasy points

Just because Gore is still playing doesn't mean he is still a valuable contributor on the field. In fact, the opposite could be true. Giving Gore carries could be impeding the progress of other younger, faster backs (like Singletary in BUF or Mack in IND or Drake in MIA).

So 4th best behind 2 Hall of Famers

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3 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Most fantasy points by a RB 36 or older . . .

Marcus Allen, 36, 164 fantasy points
Marcus Allen, 37, 125 fantasy points
John Riggins, 36, 117 fantasy points
Frank Gore, 36, 73 fantasy points

Just because Gore is still playing doesn't mean he is still a valuable contributor on the field. In fact, the opposite could be true. Giving Gore carries could be impeding the progress of other younger, faster backs (like Singletary in BUF or Mack in IND or Drake in MIA).

In 2018, Gore had a 4.6 ypc, while Drake had a 4.5, both on 100+ carries. It was a good 1-2 combo. By the eye test, Gore was very good at getting the most out of carries last year.  I haven't seen much of Gore this year, but that run up the middle to pass Sanders was vintage Gore. 7 yards using between the tackles vision, and powering forward. This year, PFF had Gore and Singletary in the mid 60s.

At some point, he and Barry Sanders were the only 2 players to have 2 TD runs of 79+ yards in a single game. A younger Gore broke a lot of long runs. 

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3 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Just because Gore is still playing doesn't mean he is still a valuable contributor on the field. In fact, the opposite could be true. Giving Gore carries could be impeding the progress of other younger, faster backs (like Singletary in BUF or Mack in IND or Drake in MIA).

Actually, Singletary has said that Gore has made him better, and is teaching him so much. Gore is also happy to pass the torch to him. Gore said Singletary is the most natural rookie he has ever played with. He has kept him in his hip pocket teaching him and pushing him. He said he will continue to do so even when he retires. Gore is a big asset to the team and to Singletary.

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22 hours ago, Leroy Hoard said:

Sproles was more of a great 3rd down back. Would have made the perfect comp!iment to Gore.

Sproles isn't 3rd on all time rushing yards then ?

tied for 249th in the HOF for rushing yards is

Clarence Davis    3,6401971-1978

Tank Younger    3,640 1949-1958

Sproles has 3552 career rushing yards ............ if you think Sproles will get on the ballot God bless ya, maybe he will

 

Gore is a HOF shoe in, no doubt

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19 minutes ago, ScottNorwood said:

He’s a compiler!

Best compiler of all time...he should get in

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Gore has no black ink.....and I never felt that he, except for a year or two, was one of the 5-7 best RBs playing that season. 

 

Way better real life football player......but just not ELITE. 

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53 minutes ago, ScottNorwood said:

He’s a compiler!

Sounds like you are accusing him of being a hoarder.

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46 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

People should be making a case for Sterling Sharpe before they make a case for Gore.  

Sharpe should have been in a long time ago. He was the Earl Campbell of WR's. Short career,  but was seriously challenging Rice for best WR in the league for a few years. I'd put him well ahead of his contemporaries like Tim Brown, Andre Reed, Art Monk, Michael Irvin, and even Cris Carter. 

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1 hour ago, Thunderlips said:

Isaac Bruce is 5th all time in yards receving.  Is he getting in?  

Why not? Hes a semi finalist this year. I think he should. 

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12 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

As far as the teams and roster composition over his career, it’s quite possible that if there were better skill position players around he may not have gotten the 4,000 touches he compiled over his career. Perhaps he got the ball so much because there weren’t better options. It didn’t turn out that way so we’ll never know an alternate career path for Gore. 

Are you seriously saying that with a BETTER supporting cast, he would've had WORSE #s? Edgerrin James played for an awesome offense and averaged 300+ carries a season. Gore's at 244, he only had one 300+ carry season in his entire career. Guy was averaging 4.5 YPC w/ the likes of Dilfer and Arnaz Battle. (yes, arnaz battle led the niners in receiving one year) In fact it can be argued that his best years were wasted because his offenses couldn't stay on the field. 

Would anybody rank a RB higher in FF because he was on a ####tier team? If anything, being on so many crappy niners teams that couldn't move the chains and always had to abandon the run meant he didn't get run into the ground and contributed to his longevity.

 

 

Edited by chinawildman

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1 hour ago, Thunderlips said:

Isaac Bruce is 5th all time in yards receving.  Is he getting in?  

He was curtailed by hamstring injuries early in his career, but he was a really great wr...a legit threat every time he was in the field and won the SB for the Rams v the Titans

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11 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

But in my mind, he belongs in the Hall of Very Good. There are a lot of strong players in the Hall of Very Good. That's where I would slot him (and many other actual HOFers). But in MY Hall of Fame, I have first and second tier guys in the HOF and third tier players in the Hall of Very Good.

Of the top 20 career rushing leaders, only Payton, ADP, Barry, Dickerson, Jim Brown, and Fragile Fred have better career YPC than Frank Gore. Most would agree those guys are considered legendary talented runners... yet Gore is simply just "very good" despite not having the luxury of playing w/ HOFer teammates like Emmitt, Faulk, James, Tomlinson.. all the while averaging more YPC than all of them?

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On 11/25/2019 at 2:32 PM, Anarchy99 said:

His last 4 seasons were not noteworthy, but his season before that he had over 1200 rushing yards and 9 TD. IIRC, Gore only had 1 season with more rushing yards or more rushing TD than that (and neither in the same season).

Not really sure what your are trying to point out here. That Gore had a better last few years than Emmitt? That Gore's career was comparable to Smith's?

You keep talking about SEASONS and fantasy pts PER SEASON and top whatever PER SEASON. The problem is Gore never got the touches to rack up top 5 yardage or points because those niners were so bad and couldn't stay on the field. Look at how many touches the top 5 RBs every season were getting, typically around 350 carries... Gore only topped 300 carries ONCE in 2006 (312). His career average of 244 carries per season is almost RBBC territory. For comparison's sake Emmitt Smith averaged almost 100 more carries per season than Gore.

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9 minutes ago, chinawildman said:

You keep talking about SEASONS and fantasy pts PER SEASON and top whatever PER SEASON. The problem is Gore never got the touches to rack up top 5 yardage or points because those niners were so bad and couldn't stay on the field. Look at how many touches the top 5 RBs every season were getting, typically around 350 carries... Gore only topped 300 carries ONCE in 2006 (312). His career average of 244 carries per season is almost RBBC territory. For comparison's sake Emmitt Smith averaged almost 100 more carries per season than Gore.

SF finished at .500 or better in 5 of Gore's 10 seasons there, and overall they had a cumulative winning record during this tenure there.  

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8 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

SF finished at .500 or better in 5 of Gore's 10 seasons there, and overall they had a cumulative winning record during this tenure there.  

4 of those seasons it's because they had a top 5 defense. Tell me how many of those niners teams ranked in the top 10 on offense. I'll save you the trouble.. the answer is zero.

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2 minutes ago, chinawildman said:

4 of those seasons it's because they had a top 5 defense. Tell me how many of those niners teams ranked in the top 10 on offense. I'll save you the trouble.. the answer is zero.

Maybe they could have been a top 10 offense if they had had a great RB. 

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