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3 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

:popcorn: 

 

max seddon‏Verified account @maxseddon

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Reuters reports Russia has sent as many as 400 mercenaries from Wagner to Venezuela to defend Maduro. I believe this is known as doubling down on your investment

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-russia-exclusive/exclusive-kremlin-linked-contractors-help-guard-venezuelas-maduro-sources-idUSKCN1PJ22M

"Don't get involved militarily, USA!  That's not cool!"

(but then we'll send our own troops, because... Russia gonna Russia)

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1 minute ago, The Z Machine said:

"Don't get involved militarily, USA!  That's not cool!"

(but then we'll send our own troops, because... Russia gonna Russia)

:yes:  

 

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15 hours ago, ren hoek said:

https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1088640993157677057

"I love the United States" - Venezuelan President @NicolasMaduro spoke out today after the Trump administration backed non-elected opposition figure Juan Guaidó and called Maduro "illegitimate".

I'd like to get into the weeds on this. First of all Guaido was elected, to the legislature. Now what happened after that I'm not sure but from what I recall the Assembly is actually pretty legitimate per the last free election in 2015. I'd like to know if the Assembly took steps to make him President, I just haven't seen anything on that yet.

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12 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I'd like to get into the weeds on this. First of all Guaido was elected, to the legislature. Now what happened after that I'm not sure but from what I recall the Assembly is actually pretty legitimate per the last free election in 2015. I'd like to know if the Assembly took steps to make him President, I just haven't seen anything on that yet.

Yeah, I’m not familiar with how it works either.  The impression I get is that Maduro has support from poorer demographics, but not with upper/middle class Venezuelans. I also read that Guiado’s base boycotted the election.  But I think that’s a separate argument from whether the US should meddle in their elections.  

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26 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:
15 hours ago, ren hoek said:

https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1088640993157677057

"I love the United States" - Venezuelan President @NicolasMaduro spoke out today after the Trump administration backed non-elected opposition figure Juan Guaidó and called Maduro "illegitimate".

I'd like to get into the weeds on this. First of all Guaido was elected, to the legislature. Now what happened after that I'm not sure but from what I recall the Assembly is actually pretty legitimate per the last free election in 2015. I'd like to know if the Assembly took steps to make him President, I just haven't seen anything on that yet.

Apparently, their National Assembly has invoked "Article 233" of their constitution, which states that the head of the Assembly can be appointed as an interim president for 30 days if the president is "unavailable" to serve.

The definition of "unavailable" is somewhat vague, but apparently includes mental disability. But it doesn't look like there is any formal mechanism for evaluating the president and officially declaring him to be "mentally disabled". Obviously Maduro says that he's fully able to serve.

Trump's decision to formally recognize Guaido based on this argument seems a bit flimsy to me, but I'd need to see other examples of the U.S. formally recognizing self-appointed leaders before I can give a more informed opinion.

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Good news for people who wanted western powers to anoint the new Venezuelan leader yesterday.

John Hudson @John_Hudson

Mike Pompeo just named Eliot Abrams his new special envoy for Venezuela. Abrams plead guilty to withholding information from Congress about the Iran-Contra affair. Pompeo says Abrams will be in charge of “all things related to our efforts to restore Democracy in Venezuela.”

Abrams was pardoned by George W. Bush. He went on to become a major critic of Trump saying in 2016 that Republicans have “nominated someone who cannot win and should not be the president of the United States.” Notice the title of the article:

In September 2017, Abrams wrote this: "The White House said today that it is not advocating regime change in North Korea.

 

Why ever not?...

 

OF COURSE we want a different regime there.

 

The same goes for other countries ruled by horrendous tyrannies, such as Iran & **Venezuela**"

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I wish I could say I was surprised that people who have been absolutely buttblasted the past 2 years over Russian memes and twitter larping to interfere in US elections are hardly batting an eye at Trump/west declaring who the Venezuelan President is.  But I’m really not.  At all.  

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It is weird how you pick up on both left wing and right wing narratives with the only common link being pro Russia or anti USA. I don't believe you are a Russian troll but your posts are indistinguishable from one.

Edited by huthut

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2 hours ago, ren hoek said:

Good news for people who wanted western powers to anoint the new Venezuelan leader yesterday.

John Hudson @John_Hudson

Mike Pompeo just named Eliot Abrams his new special envoy for Venezuela. Abrams plead guilty to withholding information from Congress about the Iran-Contra affair. Pompeo says Abrams will be in charge of “all things related to our efforts to restore Democracy in Venezuela.”

Abrams was pardoned by George W. Bush. He went on to become a major critic of Trump saying in 2016 that Republicans have “nominated someone who cannot win and should not be the president of the United States.” Notice the title of the article:

In September 2017, Abrams wrote this: "The White House said today that it is not advocating regime change in North Korea.

 

Why ever not?...

 

OF COURSE we want a different regime there.

 

The same goes for other countries ruled by horrendous tyrannies, such as Iran & **Venezuela**"

Maybe you can share your opinion on who should run Venezuela 

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12 hours ago, huthut said:

It is weird how you pick up on both left wing and right wing narratives with the only common link being pro Russia or anti USA. I don't believe you are a Russian troll but your posts are indistinguishable from one.

It’s weird how people tie up their identity with nation states.  I don’t really care which state a policy is favorable to.  Is it right or is it wrong?  I’m pro-Russia because I look at our work in Iraq, Libya, Syria and Iran and see catastrophic failures that ruined millions of people’s lives?  The refugee crisis that those wars precipitated?  I’m anti-USA because I look at our work training death squads in Latin America and think it’s wrong?

I think we all want what’s best for the US and the world, even if we disagree on how to go about it.  

Enough with the “pro-Russia” crap.  This is a Cold War-era propaganda tactic.  

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Trust me when I say, Ren, that Maduro is no defender of democracy or the rights of the people of Venezuela. If you care about liberty, rule of law, a functioning economy, basic human rights, or even just stopping the starvation of people, you wouldn't support Maduro.

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1 hour ago, ren hoek said:

I’m pro-Russia because I look at our work in Iraq, Libya, Syria and Iran and see catastrophic failures that ruined millions of people’s lives?  

Just talking post Cold War here - Chechnya, Daghestan, Transniestra, Lukansk, Donetsk, Crimea, Syria, Ossetia, Abkhazia, Kaliningrad is what? Putin himself - via his good buddy Prigozhin (of Concord) - has just sent Wagner guards to Caracas. What is that?

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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28 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Trust me when I say, Ren, that Maduro is no defender of democracy or the rights of the people of Venezuela. If you care about liberty, rule of law, a functioning economy, basic human rights, or even just stopping the starvation of people, you wouldn't support Maduro.

I think ren would agree (with the bolded, at least) but then add "But I don't think the U.S. should interfere".

And then he might also add that a legislator who appoints himself as President is no different than a military leader who stages a coup.

And I think that both points would be valid. I'm just not sure if there are better alternatives here.

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Quote

Venezuela’s Presidential Crisis and the Transition to Democracy

The Origin of the Presidential Crisis

Venezuela’s presidential crisis is caused by the absence of an elected president that can assume the presidency since January 10, 2019, the day that, according to the Venezuelan Constitution, a new presidential term began.                             

Articles 230 and 231 of Venezuela’s constitution establish that the presidential term begins on January 10 of each term (the inauguration day). That day, according to the constitution, the elected president must assume the presidency through an oath presented at the National Assembly (the Venezuelan Congress.

Nicolás Maduro is claiming that he is the elected president because the Venezuelan electoral authority (the National Electoral Council) proclaimed him as Venezuela’s president after the May 20 election.

However, that election was convened by the illegitimate national constituent assembly that does not have the authority to organize elections according to the constitution. In addition, that process was organized in violation of several political rights, basically, due to the unconstitutional ban declared on the main political parties and leaders. Also, the May 20 election violated the principle of transparency during all the electoral cycle. Finally, Maduro´s regime used the complex humanitarian emergency as a political tool to exercise coercion over the voters.

This is why the National Assembly declared such elections as non-existent. Also, more than 50 countries decided not to recognize that election.

As a result, Nicolás Maduro cannot be recognized as the legitimately elected president in Venezuela, as was declared by the Lima Group in a statement dated January 4, 2019.  Because of this, he is usurping the presidency of Venezuela, as a non-elected president in charge of the office. 

Juan Guaidó as Interim President

Maduro cannot be recognized as an elected president. Hence, it is necessary to determine who temporary can assume the presidency as interim or acting president.

The Venezuelan Constitution does not regulate what to do when a non-elected president is exercising the presidency after the inauguration day. The most similar situation is regulated in article 233 of the constitution. Pursuant to that article, if the elected president cannot assume the presidency on inauguration day, the president of the National Assembly must assume the presidency as interim president until a new election is called.

However, there are two obstacles to the implementation of that article. First, because the rule of law was dismantled, it is not possible to enforce the decisions of the interim president. Second, the presidency is currently being exercised by a usurper, Nicolás Maduro.

To solve those problems, the National Assembly approved a statement on January 15. According to that statement, Juan Guaidó, as the National Assembly’s president, is entitled to assume the presidency as interim president. In addition, due to the dismantled rule of law and the usurpation of the presidency, the National Assembly must adopt all the decisions aimed to restore the rule of law, assure the enforcement of the interim president’s decisions, and restore the electoral condition in order to organize free and transparent elections.

For that purpose, the statement also announced the intention to grant amnesty and other benefits to the public officials who decide to collaborate in the Venezuelan transition, including drafting legislation to create a transitional justice system. This could create the proper incentives to breakdown the duty of obedience, particularly from the military.

This statement is based on articles 333 and 350 of the Venezuelan Constitution that regulated the transitional process that must be followed if the rule of law has been dismantled by a de facto government, as is happing with Nicolás Maduro.

As a result, currently Juan Guaidó, as the National Assembly’s president, has the authority to assume the presidency. In order to ensure the enforcement of that decision, the National Assembly will adopt the legislation required to restore the legitimate exercise of the presidency, as the National Assembly declared in several statements approved on January 22 that appointed a new representative of Venezuela before the Organization of American States.

Precisely, on January 23, Juan Guaidó ratified his intention to comply with Article 233 of the constitution, when he swore in as interim president during a civil demonstration. Some media outlets have claimed that Guaidó proclaimed himself as president; however, that’s an inaccurate statement. Article 233 of the constitution grants Guaidó the title of interim president since January 10. Without any formality, Guaidó is the interim president since that day, even though he cannot assume the post effectively because Maduro is usurping the presidency.

Because of this, Juan Guaidó isn’t the self-declared president of Venezuela. He is the interim president under the authority of Article 233 of the constitution, as the National Assembly’s president.  It is the constitution—not himself—that declared Guaidó as interim president of Venezuela. ...

- Here's the constitution for any so interested.

- I would think this is the constitutional argument for Guaido.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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1 hour ago, ren hoek said:
Quote

For the sake of the Venezuelan people, the region, and for the principle of national sovereignty, these international actors should instead support negotiations between the Venezuelan government and its opponents that will allow the country to finally emerge from its political and economic crisis.

I totally agree. I think this is actually the plan. I sorta think Maduro is the sticking point here, he is not negotiating.

Venezuela’s Maduro Meets Pope Francis as Vatican Joins Talks

October 24, 2016

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro met with Pope Francis Monday and received a blessing for the South American nation, as the Vatican emerges as a key player in a new dialogue process starting up amid an intensifying political crisis.

Maduro, who’s been on a tour of oil producing countries including Saudi Arabia and Qatar over the past week, arrived in Rome on Monday and had a private meeting with the pope at the Vatican, the Information Ministry said in an e-mailed statement.

The opposition alliance known as MUD earlier said that Emil Paul Tscherrig, the Vatican’s representative in Buenos Aires, had arrived in Caracas to act as an intermediary between the government and opposition. Tension is mounting in Venezuela after the national electoral council last week suspended a recall referendum process against Maduro, a ruling the opposition-controlled National Assembly described as a coup.

QuickTakeVenezuela

“It was an excellent private meeting with profound spirituality,” Maduro said in posts on his Twitter account. “I celebrate the installation of a national dialogue for peace and sovereignty. The path for the homeland is peace, prosperity and social happiness with love and Bolivarian strength. We’ll keep advancing and defeating demons.”

Maduro, speaking later on state television as he clutched a crucifix, said that Pope Francis gave him several books and “personal reflections” to consider. Addressing his trip to oil producing countries, Maduro said he had held successful talks and that a new cycle of stable prices would emerge.

Meeting Scheduled

Representatives from the opposition and government will meet with the Vatican mediator in Margarita Island on Oct. 30, the opposition alliance said in a post on its Twitter account. Jorge Rodriguez, mayor of the Caracas federal district and a socialist party official who has represented the government in dialogue talks, said the Union of South American Nations, or Unasur, would also attend the talks.

“It’s important to have light, a lamp to guide us through this tunnel of a fight that we’ve entered,” opposition alliance general secretary Jesus Chuo Torrealba said in a statement on Monday. “We’re entering a process of struggle that will be complex and difficult.”

QuickTakePope Francis

Venezuela’s government first said it accepted the the opposition’s proposal to have the Vatican join a dialogue process in July. At the time, the opposition said it would only sit down for talks if the recall referendum on Maduro was allowed to advance.

Venezuela’s opposition alliance on Monday renewed calls for supporters to participate in a “Taking of Venezuela” protest planned across the country for Wednesday. The alliance said any future talks should take place in Caracas.

“Any dialogue process should have four fundamental objectives including the respect for the right to vote, liberty for the political prisoners and return of those exiled, attention to the victims of the humanitarian crisis, and respect for the autonomy of powers,” MUD said in a statement late Monday, after some alliance members said in posts on social media that they had been surprised by the dialogue process.

National Assembly

Congress on Sunday approved a series of actions in response to the suspension of the referendum process during a four-hour extraordinary session that was briefly interrupted by government supporters. The National Assembly is expected to meet Tuesday and debate the “constitutional situation of the Presidency,” congress secretary Roberto Marrero said in a post on his Twitter account.

“The stage seems set for a confrontation of powers in which both the government and the opposition will challenge each other’s legitimacy and legality,” Francisco Rodriguez, chief economist at Torino Capital in New York, said Monday in an e-mailed note. “If the government’s invalidation of the recall stands, Venezuela will clearly have taken a significant step toward becoming a non-electoral authoritarian system.”

The opposition’s only main option of focusing on street protests will increase the near-term risk of a “social eruption” amid ongoing food shortages and triple-digit inflation, political-risk consultancy Eurasia Group said in an e-mailed note on Friday.

Caracas-based El Nacional newspaper on Monday reported that student protests had broken out in various parts of the country.

Venezuela is in breach of the Mercosur trade bloc’s democratic clause, Argentine President Mauricio Macri said at a news conference Monday after meeting with Uruguayan President Tabare Vazquez. Member states will meet over the next few days to discuss the Venezuelan crisis, Vazquez added.

“I hope the deadbeat visiting in Rome doesn’t make a joke of Pope Francis and listens to him carefully,” opposition governor and leader Henrique Capriles said in a post on his Twitter account. “The coup needs to be stopped!

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53 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Trust me when I say, Ren, that Maduro is no defender of democracy or the rights of the people of Venezuela. If you care about liberty, rule of law, a functioning economy, basic human rights, or even just stopping the starvation of people, you wouldn't support Maduro.

I don’t support Maduro ZMachine.  Just like opponents of US regime change in Iraq didn’t support Saddam Hussein.  It’s about the inevitable blowback of this policy (yet another refugee crisis, more death and suffering in VZ) and respecting diplomacy.  If Maduro needs to be replaced there are better ways than the US sending in its regime changers and arming violent rebels.  

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Maduro is not going to negotiate power. He is an illegitimate dictator that controls power through corruption, cronyism, and violence against his people.

The country is non-functioning on many levels. The reign of starvation and deprivation must end.

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I feel awful for the Venezuelans and imo we should give humanitarian/refugee assistance, but I think it's past time we are out of the government construction business. We've done this and failed far too many times in Central and South America. I can't name a single stable government that the United States installed in that area.

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The CIA backed a 2002 coup attempt against Chavez too.  Sanctions against Venezuela have exacerbated the problems and compounded human suffering.  To say nothing of Maduro, what’s happened in Venezuela has not happened in a vacuum.  

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18 minutes ago, Dedfin said:

I feel awful for the Venezuelans and imo we should give humanitarian/refugee assistance

I would support this too, if it was a thing the US actually did.  Too often ‘humanitarian aid’ means backing the most violent and extremist factions of the opposition. Then sitting back and watching it burn.  

I agree with the rest as well.  

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On Saturday evening, as the deadline was due to expire, Venezuela's foreign ministry said it would withdraw the expulsion order, and instead allow 30 days for the two sides to set up "interest offices" in each others' countries.

Interest offices are used when countries do not have formal diplomatic relations, but want to have a basic level of contact to represent their interests.

- BBC

- A leading military and diplomatic emissary to the US has also defected from the military to Guaido.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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The first UN rapporteur to visit Venezuela for 21 years has told The Independent the US sanctions on the country are illegal and could amount to “crimes against humanity” under international law.

Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans.

Mr De Zayas, a former secretary of the UN Human Rights Council (HRC) and an expert in international law, spoke to The Independent following the presentation of his Venezuela report to the HRC in September. He said that since its presentation the report has been ignored by the UN and has not sparked the public debate he believes it deserves.

“Sanctions kill,” he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”.

In the report, Mr de Zayas recommended, among other actions, that the International Criminal Court investigate economic sanctions against Venezuela as possible crimes against humanity under Article 7 of the Rome Statute.

“Twenty-first century sanctions attempt to bring not just a town, but sovereign countries to their knees,” Mr de Zayas said in his report.

US sanctions prohibit dealing in currencies issued by the Venezuelan government. They also target individuals, and stop US-based companies or people from buying and selling new debt issued by PDVSA or the government.

Mr De Zayas’s findings are based on his late-2017 mission to the country and interviews with 12 Venezuelan government minsters, opposition politicians, 35 NGOs working in the country, academics, church officials, activists, chambers of commerce and regional UN agencies.

The US imposed new sanctions against Venezuela on 9 March 2015, when President Barack Obama issued executive order 13692, declaring the country a threat to national security.

The sanctions have since intensified under Donald Trump, who has also threatened military invasion and discussed a coup.

Despite being the first UN official to visit and report from Venezuela in 21 years, Mr de Zayas said his research into the causes of the country’s economic crisis has so far largely been ignored by the UN and the media, and caused little debate within the Human Rights Council.

He believes his report has been ignored because it goes against the popular narrative that Venezuela needs regime change.

“When I come and I say the emigration is partly attributable to the economic war waged against Venezuela and is partly attributable to the sanctions, people don’t like to hear that. They just want the simple narrative that socialism failed and it failed the Venezuelan people,” Mr de Zayas told The Independent.

“When I came back [the UN and media were] not interested. Because I am not singing the song I’m supposed to sing so I don’t exist … And my report, as I said, was formally presented but there has been no debate on the report. It has been filed away.”

The then UN high commissioner, Zeid Raad Al Hussein, reportedly refused to meet Mr de Zayas after the visit, and the Venezuela desk of the UN Human Rights Council also declined to help with his work after his return despite being obliged to do so, Mr de Zayas claimed.

He told The Independent the office gave him the “cold shoulder” because they were worried his report, which is now published, would be too independent.

“They are only interested in a rapporteur who is going to … do grandstanding, is going to condemn the government and ask for regime change. And I went there to listen. I went there to find out what’s actually going on,” Mr de Zayas said.

Venezuela crisis: Former UN rapporteur says US sanctions are killing citizens

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Jon Schwarz @schwarz

During the George W. Bush administration, Elliott Abrams helped lead the US effort to stage a coup to overturn the results of the 2006 Palestinian elections, complete with murder, torture, etc. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/04/gaza200804

During the Reagan administration, Manuel Noriega had opposition leader Hugo Spadafora tortured & then decapitated while Spadafora was still alive. Elliott Abrams led the efforts to make sure Noriega, then still a top US ally, faced no consequences.  http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/003635.html

Via @stephenkinzer's book Overthrow, here's what Manuel Noriega did to Hugo Spadafora in 1985. This is what Elliott Abrams, now leading America's fight for human rights and democracy in Venezuela, defended and covered up.

In 1982 the Salvadoran government massacred 500+ peasants in El Mozote. Government troops slit children's throats & raped girls as young as 10. Elliott Abrams, then the "Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights and Humanitarian Affairs," played a lead role in covering it up.

During the 1980s, the Salvadoran government slaughtered perhaps 70,000 people in ways so ghastly there's no contemporary equivalent, except maybe for ISIS. Elliott Abrams was a key figure making it happen. He later said he considered this to be a "fabulous achievement.”

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10 hours ago, ren hoek said:

https://twitter.com/senor_pez/status/1088947017429192704

The year was 1995. A young Elliott Abrams taught us how to laugh. Maniacally. When Allan Nairn brought up his involvement in the mass murder and torture of indigenous people in Guatemala.

I agree with this. You can throw in his involvement in Iran-Contra. Just another example of how Trump toxifies everything he touches. 

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20 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I agree with this. You can throw in his involvement in Iran-Contra. Just another example of how Trump toxifies everything he touches. 

Man, Reagan was a real piece of work.

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52 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I agree with this. You can throw in his involvement in Iran-Contra. Just another example of how Trump toxifies everything he touches. 

This is Trump reviving an absolute ghoul from previous administrations that the media has spent the past couple years whitewashing.  All those people that said they miss George Bush should be delighted with this hire. 

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7 hours ago, ren hoek said:

This is Trump reviving an absolute ghoul from previous administrations that the media has spent the past couple years whitewashing.  All those people that said they miss George Bush should be delighted with this hire. 

Fyi John Bolton is NSA. I mean...

eta - Update.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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Bolton photographed with a notepad with visible writing that says "5,000 troops to Colombia." 

:popcorn: 

Edited by Bucky86

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3 minutes ago, IC FBGCav said:

My only question is, what country that we tried to nation build ended up better for it?

Japan?  South Korea?  Iraq is probably a net zero at this point, but it is still early. 

Not sure what the criteria is for "national build" and "better".

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1 minute ago, Jayrod said:

Japan?  South Korea?  Iraq is probably a net zero at this point, but it is still early. 

Not sure what the criteria is for "national build" and "better".

Japan wasn't invaded.  South Korea?  How about the North, is it better?

Better would be less civilians killed.  This is the best question why don't you apply the same rules to Saudi as you do to Ven?

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If our government does care about healthcare at home, what do you really think they care about in other countries would be the best question.  Human beings?  No way.

Edited by IC FBGCav

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1 minute ago, IC FBGCav said:

Japan wasn't invaded.  South Korea?  How about the North, is it better?

Better would be less civilians killed.  This is the best question why don't you apply the same rules to Saudi as you do to Ven?

OK, but we crushed Japan and built them back up.  And we did zero nation building in North Korea, which is kind of the point, right?

:confused: on the Suadi vs. Ven question.  I didn't mention either one and was just trying to come up with examples of where we were successful with nation building, that is all.

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4 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

OK, but we crushed Japan and built them back up.  And we did zero nation building in North Korea, which is kind of the point, right?

:confused: on the Suadi vs. Ven question.  I didn't mention either one and was just trying to come up with examples of where we were successful with nation building, that is all.

I get it brother, I just am saying we nation build for profit.  We don't get involved where there isn't profit.  There are places with major genocides which we don't get involved with.

We don't intervene just because the government is oppressive too.  If they pay, like Saudi.

Edited by IC FBGCav

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6 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

OK, but we crushed Japan and built them back up.  And we did zero nation building in North Korea, which is kind of the point, right?

:confused: on the Suadi vs. Ven question.  I didn't mention either one and was just trying to come up with examples of where we were successful with nation building, that is all.

Japan is a perfect example.  They built themselves back up.  We helped fund it, it is an outlier.

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Maduro needs to go and he will likely quietly end up in Cuba or Panama one morning. But sanctions have failed in many places, such as Cuba, where the Cuban government is still blaming the gringos for their problems 60 years after Castro took over. 

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On 1/29/2019 at 9:27 AM, Jayrod said:

OK, but we crushed Japan and built them back up.  And we did zero nation building in North Korea, which is kind of the point, right?

:confused: on the Suadi vs. Ven question.  I didn't mention either one and was just trying to come up with examples of where we were successful with nation building, that is all.

 How were we supposed to rebuild North Korea?

Edited by jonessed

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