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Venezuela Thread

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More Russian/Maduro propaganda, this time from Iraq/Afghan war veteran, brother of Pat Tillman, Kevin Tillman.  //

Why this coup is taking place is transparent. Some of our government officials are actually telling us. Our leaders, yet again, feel entitled to another country’s resources. As was the case in Iraq, Venezuela’s oil reserves are not controlled by U.S. corporations or a pliant government. They are owned by the people of Venezuela. It is theirs and nobody else’s. This means the oil cannot be looted by Western corporations or controlled for political purposes by outside forces.

Unless, of course, a coup takes place and the oil is taken by force. That is what it appears our leaders are going to do. In all fairness to members of the Trump administration, this belligerence toward Venezuela did not start with them. It is merely an extension of previous administrations’ policies. If Venezuelans believe Maduro has mismanaged their nation’s most valuable asset, it is their right to seek change, but this is not a right enjoyed by Donald Trump, Nancy Pelosi or Elliott Abrams.

Like Iraq, our interference is not about liberating the Venezuelan people from some tyrannical regime. Nor is it about saving them from starvation. So please don’t allow our leaders to use the goodness inside of you as a weapon for your own manipulation. The goal is to pillage and plunder a vulnerable nation. It is evident that our representative leaders don’t care about the health and welfare of the Venezuelan people any more than they cared about the Iraqi people.

If they cared, they would consult with the Venezuelan government and ask how the U.S. might provide unconditional assistance. If they cared, they would let Venezuelans sort out their own problems democratically. If they cared about democracy, sovereignty, individual rights, human rights and the rule of law, then they would keep their hands off of Venezuela.

Tomorrow is a critical day for Venezuela. The U.S. and the coup leaders plan to illegally bring $30 million worth of “aid” into Venezuela, which has been explicitly rejected by the Venezuelan government. The aid is being refused because the Venezuelan government understands that its humanitarian crisis is in part being caused by the same nation offering aid in bad faith. What makes the offer a sick joke is that Venezuela is estimated to be losing $30 million a day in oil revenue. This fraudulent olive branch is so transparently a political weapon that even the Red Cross and the United Nations are crying foul.

No matter how ridiculous the coordinated event sounds, history has shown that these gambits for power can and do work. The Trump administration and Venezuelan coup leaders are hoping for a spark, a catalyst, a skirmish to justify a U.S. invasion—anything that will create just enough chaos to open up this window of opportunity. It is reminiscent of the U.S. propaganda surrounding Saddam and weapons inspectors. It is meant to be an inciting event.

A Call to Halt an Illegal Invasion of Venezuela

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On 2/25/2019 at 11:28 AM, ren hoek said:

More Russian/Maduro propaganda

Appreciate the very descriptive summary here.

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Some astonishing facts I’ve been reading about this: 

1. When Hugo Chavez took power, oil production was at 3.5 million barrels a day. Today it’s at 1 million barrels a day. This has nothing to do with world supply and demand- it’s all a result of internal politics. 

2. The monetary situation is similar to Germany in the 1920s- the government keeps printing money and its completely worthless. You need a wheelbarrow full of bills to buy a gallon of milk. 

3. Over 9 million Venezuelans eat 1 meal a day or less. 

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37 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Some astonishing facts I’ve been reading about this: 

1. When Hugo Chavez took power, oil production was at 3.5 million barrels a day. Today it’s at 1 million barrels a day. This has nothing to do with world supply and demand- it’s all a result of internal politics. 

2. The monetary situation is similar to Germany in the 1920s- the government keeps printing money and its completely worthless. You need a wheelbarrow full of bills to buy a gallon of milk. 

3. Over 9 million Venezuelans eat 1 meal a day or less. 

1) PDVSA had been run into the ground due to cronyism and the installation of managers that have no idea what they're doing. Furthermore, as a state owned enterprise, the rank and file workers were compelled to show support for PSUV, Chávez's party. If they didn't show up to counter protests wearing the PSUV red, they were fired. Finally, as the economy began tanking, many of the skilled workers that had technical training fled to locations where they could get paid for their skills instead of seeing their purchasing power go to zero.  This has happened in many segments of the profesional occupations. Those that could leave have done so.

2) The economic situation there is worse than in the Weimar Republic in the 1930s. All commerce is executed in digital bank to bank transfers, so the effect is less pronounced than in other economic collapses. Although really, the only people that can buy things without waiting in 4 hour lines are those with access to hard currency, like USD or Colombian peso.

One thing I don't see reported much in English language media about Venezuela is that the military officers, certainly high ranking ones, are enriching themselves with narcotrafficing across the borders. They control the borders, so they are taking cuts for moving drugs from Colombia, Bolivia, Peru, Brazil into Mexico and the Caribbean, where they make their way further north to the US.  This might be diminished lately due to the flight of internal migrants to the borders, but for a decade under Chávez and Maduro, that was one means for keeping the military on the side of PSUV.

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1 minute ago, The Z Machine said:

1) PDVSA had been run into the ground due to cronyism and the installation of managers that have no idea what they're doing. Furthermore, as a state owned enterprise, the rank and file workers were compelled to show support for PSUV, Chávez's party. If they didn't show up to counter protests wearing the PSUV red, they were fired. Finally, as the economy began tanking, many of the skilled workers that had technical training fled to locations where they could get paid for their skills instead of seeing their purchasing power go to zero.  This has happened in many segments of the profesional occupations. Those that could leave have done so.

2) The economic situation there is worse than in the Weimar Republic in the 1930s. All commerce is executed in digital bank to bank transfers, so the effect is less pronounced than in other economic collapses. Although really, the only people that can buy things without waiting in 4 hour lines are those with access to hard currency, like USD or Colombian peso.

One thing I don't see reported much in English language media about Venezuela is that the military officers, certainly high ranking ones, are enriching themselves with narcotrafficing across the borders. They control the borders, so they are taking cuts for moving drugs from Colombia, Bolivia, Peru, Brazil into Mexico and the Caribbean, where they make their way further north to the US.  This might be diminished lately due to the flight of internal migrants to the borders, but for a decade under Chávez and Maduro, that was one means for keeping the military on the side of PSUV.

Thanks for explaining.

it certainly seems like an unsustainable situation. The main question for us is what our level of involvement should be. Important to remember history: Fidel Castro’s regime was on the brink of collapse when we saved it inadvertently with the Bay of Pigs- we unified the country against “Yanqui Imperialism”. We need to be careful to avoid that here. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, timschochet said:

Some astonishing facts I’ve been reading about this: 

1. When Hugo Chavez took power, oil production was at 3.5 million barrels a day. Today it’s at 1 million barrels a day. This has nothing to do with world supply and demand- it’s all a result of internal politics. 

2. The monetary situation is similar to Germany in the 1920s- the government keeps printing money and its completely worthless. You need a wheelbarrow full of bills to buy a gallon of milk. 

3. Over 9 million Venezuelans eat 1 meal a day or less. 

To me point one is why it’s economy has collapsed.  Ever since oil production was taken over and all the oil companies kick out, production has suffer.  This was partially preventable.

Edited by stlrams

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2 minutes ago, stlrams said:

To me point one is why it’s economy has collapsed.  Ever since oil production was taken over and all the oil companies kick out, production has suffer.  This was partially preventable.

Well, you also have the collapse in oil prices about 5 years ago to go along with the general resource mismanagement and rampant corruption....

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9 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Well, you also have the collapse in oil prices about 5 years ago to go along with the general resource mismanagement and rampant corruption....

That’s why I put partially preventable.  They can’t control oil prices but mismanagement and corruption are directly linked to the state taking over oil companies. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, stlrams said:

That’s why I put partially preventable.  They can’t control oil prices but mismanagement and corruption are directly linked to the state taking over oil companies. 

Yeah.  Z's post above partially touches on things like the 2003 strike and its impacts.   Generating a recovery in Venezuela necessarily is going to mean making their oil industry more productive, as I mentioned last week.  It seems like Maduro is trying to do that with Russian help, but it will just be the same or worse corruption...

Edited by Slapdash

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

Thanks for explaining.

it certainly seems like an unsustainable situation. The main question for us is what our level of involvement should be. Important to remember history: Fidel Castro’s regime was on the brink of collapse when we saved it inadvertently with the Bay of Pigs- we unified the country against “Yanqui Imperialism”. We need to be careful to avoid that here. 

Most people in Latin America agree that the USA should not get involved militarily. Some Cubans and Venezuelans in Miami want Trump to invade, but when Trump came to Miami last week, many Venezuelans living here protested against US untervention for the reason Tim mentioned.

The Panama invasion under Bush 1 is not quite the same as there is no Panama Canal and not 35,000 Americans living in Venezuela and no US military there. The death of Lieutenant Paz was the match that kindled the invasion. 

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The US should not get involved militarily, not even if there's a civil war. They need to convince other nations to stay out too and work through multinational coalitions to prevent violence and give humanitarian aid.

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FYI, I talked with my family in Venezuela and one of the better NGOs doing humanitarian work in country is Caritas

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6 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

The US should not get involved militarily, not even if there's a civil war. They need to convince other nations to stay out too and work through multinational coalitions to prevent violence and give humanitarian aid.

Yep.  Help pick up the pieces when it falls.  Until then a humanitarian presence on the borders will send an appropriate message.

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Quote

 

Jose de Cordoba‏ @Jose_deCordoba

Opposition leader Juan Guaido has landed in Caracas airport in #Venezuela to an ecstatic reception of supporters and a large group of diplomats who are there to insure his safety. Gauntlet has been thrown to Maduro. How will he respond.

8:28 AM - 4 Mar 2019

 

 

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Venezuela has shut down twitter.

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6 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Venezuela has shut down twitter.

Just curious: how does a government do that? What is the mechanism? 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Just curious: how does a government do that? What is the mechanism? 

State owned ISP.

Just need to use a VPN to work around it though.

Edited by Bucky86

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34 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Venezuela has shut down twitter.

Trump's coup is getting pretty intense 

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43 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

State owned ISP.

Just need to use a VPN to work around it though.

My FIL reports that it's not shut down for him.

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3 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

My FIL reports that it's not shut down for him.

Interesting. Some people are reporting they can access twitter, but images and video aren't loading for them.

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2 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Interesting. Some people are reporting they can access twitter, but images and video aren't loading for them.

He's not in Caracas though, so it might be regional.

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18 minutes ago, Franknbeans said:

Propaganda?

 

~10:49

Max Blumenthal, ya don’t say.

Question: how much does a hamburger cost in US dollars in Caracas? I’ll wait.

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On 2/24/2019 at 1:37 PM, ren hoek said:

It's not a conspiracy.  It matches almost verbatim what Trump and John Bolton have said about Venezuela.  Unlike the fake news you read, they really couldn't spell it out any harder for you.  

The plan

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2 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Max Blumenthal, ya don’t say.

Question: how much does a hamburger cost in US dollars in Caracas? I’ll wait.

I imagine a lot. Your turn...

Do you think U.S. sanctions have helped the people of Venezuela?

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4 minutes ago, Franknbeans said:

I imagine a lot. Your turn...

Do you think U.S. sanctions have helped the people of Venezuela?

3.5 million Bolivars is the cost of a kilo of meat.

- I’m not sure, they may hurt. But 1. it’s appropriate because Maduro’s rule is illegal, and 2. and can be easily resolved by Maduro himself.

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Posted (edited)

And I get Dore’s shtick by now. He opens with a little intro from some propagandist (yes) and then he’s off and running from there. These dog and pony shows have been old hat for dictators for decades. 

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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Who stands to benefit from the propaganda? It ain't Jimmy Dore.

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1 minute ago, Franknbeans said:

Who stands to benefit from the propaganda? It ain't Jimmy Dore.

Dore just has a show.

Now Max, like his dad before him, does quite well.

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from a comment in one of the links...

America: Socialism is bad, so we have to sanction them, blockade them, confiscate their billions, take over their company Citgo, Steal their gold in UK banks, recognize a puppet as President, threaten military action, demonize its leader, give them forced aid, regime change them, appoint a convicted war criminal as envoy to restore democracy because we need to prove that Socialism is BAD.

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Just now, Franknbeans said:

from a comment in one of the links...

America: Socialism is bad, so we have to sanction them, blockade them, confiscate their billions, take over their company Citgo, Steal their gold in UK banks, recognize a puppet as President, threaten military action, demonize its leader, give them forced aid, regime change them, appoint a convicted war criminal as envoy to restore democracy because we need to prove that Socialism is BAD.

Here’s an article from the Miami Herald on the challenges Caracas shopkeepers we’re facing.

- This is 2017, yaknow, pre-coup.- Sorry, remind me again why the Assemby isn’t the voice of the people here? Why are they not able to address these inequities, but one man - Maduro - instead must?

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4 minutes ago, Franknbeans said:

from a comment in one of the links...

America: Socialism is bad, so we have to sanction them, blockade them, confiscate their billions, take over their company Citgo, Steal their gold in UK banks, recognize a puppet as President, threaten military action, demonize its leader, give them forced aid, regime change them, appoint a convicted war criminal as envoy to restore democracy because we need to prove that Socialism is BAD.

Yeah, quoting random comments isn't the best way to argue points.  This is gibberish.

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I don't know and I hope it stays pre-coup. When is enough, enough already?

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2 minutes ago, Franknbeans said:

I don't know and I hope it stays pre-coup. When is enough, enough already?

I agree there. I just meant pre-Guaido (I was being sarcastic).

I think the people have been done with Maduro since 2015, they just can’t get a free vote to show it.

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7 minutes ago, Sand said:

Yeah, quoting random comments isn't the best way to argue points.  This is gibberish.

It's also not wrong except the regime change part, yet.

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31 minutes ago, Franknbeans said:

Just realize that this is part of the playbook

How long have you cared about Venezuela?

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10 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I can see why.

- I can also see why the Assembly picked Guaido, the guy is channeling Bobby Kennedy.

You can also see why the US handpicked him.  He’ll be a good little puppet for Abrams and Bolton.  It’s amazing how transparent and blatant this is, yet people still choose to gaslight me and Frank.  

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Who the heck is this James Dorrey guy?

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22 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Who the heck is this James Dorrey guy?

Failed comedian I think

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5 minutes ago, Dedfin said:

Failed comedian I think

I can see why. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

I can see why. 

It's a tough racket. He really has similar takes (not exactly but similar) as CTH, who are more insightful, funnier and dont mess with weird conspiracies like the seth rich garbage. I've seen some Jimmy Dore, and I agree with some stuff he says but I just dont find his show compelling. 

Edited by Dedfin

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1 hour ago, Dedfin said:

It's a tough racket. He really has similar takes (not exactly but similar) as CTH, who are more insightful, funnier and dont mess with weird conspiracies like the seth rich garbage. I've seen some Jimmy Dore, and I agree with some stuff he says but I just dont find his show compelling. 

Frankndore disagrees

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3 hours ago, Franknbeans said:
On 2/24/2019 at 1:37 PM, ren hoek said:

It's not a conspiracy.  It matches almost verbatim what Trump and John Bolton have said about Venezuela.  Unlike the fake news you read, they really couldn't spell it out any harder for you.  

The plan

Ooof...  This a pretty bad self-own on yourself.  What a disaster of a link. :(  

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