discountdoublecheck

LB to DE candidates

50 posts in this topic

Brandon Graham made the switch last off season. I'm going by ESPNs positions and looking to find the next guy that could get a huge boost in value.

If anyone has other LB that could get switched to DE feel free to throw them into this thread. Targeting potential defensive coordinator/scheme changes.

J. Hughes BUF

S. Lawson BUF

E. Ogbah CLE

 

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Good topic.  What makes you think CLE will change schemes?  A couple of guys would interest me if they go 4-3

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I think Chandler Jones is a free agent at seasons end. 

Who knows what will happen with Aldon Smith. In more ways than one. 

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8 hours ago, Hankmoody said:

Good topic.  What makes you think CLE will change schemes?  A couple of guys would interest me if they go 4-3

Because CLE has been so bad on defense. They are winless and somebody has to take the fall. 

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9 hours ago, discountdoublecheck said:

Because CLE has been so bad on defense. They are winless and somebody has to take the fall. 

Doesn't sound like that's going to happen.  

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21 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

Doesn't sound like that's going to happen.  

That's kind of my question - they knew this was going to be a train wreck, and they are on year one of a rebuild.  Are they really surprised or disappointed enough to actually fire someone already?  I can't imagine anyone's getting promoted from the staff either, so why would anything change?

If it's just a guess by OP because "they are bad" I'm not interested in throwing pasta against the wall to see if anything sticks, but I'm all about peeking under the hood and determining what's got a good basis for speculation and getting in front of it.  That's how juggernauts are born, when you get a couple of those right for min bids.  I had multiple chances to trade for Mack cheap-ish last year when he was listed at LB.  Had I had any reason to believe the change would happen I would have jumped on it, but I couldn't afford to get stuck with an LB with his massive contract in those leagues.  Wish I had, and I'm looking for the next opportunity like that.

Obviously the coaching hire/fire cycle will drive much of this, but by they the masses will be tuned in.  To continue the conversation:

Jadaveon Clowney - he lined up at DE more once Watt went out and was a lot more effective when he did.  I don't know much about their philosophy, but hopefully they get another real OLB in there (like the next Watt up!) and move Clowney full time to DE.  Even better if they ever went 4-3 but that would take a pretty radical change I think.

I like the Chandler Jones call-out, he's a UFA after this year and if he goes elsewhere that runs a true 4-3 he'll easily be re-designated to DE.  Heck he's probably playable in big-play leagues even as a LB.

Melvin Ingram - another UFA, and another guy that seems like he plays much more like a DE than a true LB.  Can anyone weigh in on SDC cap space and/or spending history with their FA's?

Nick Perry - UFA in GB.  I always thought they mis-used him, he's not a space guy.  Let him pin his ears back and go.  8 sacks in 65% snap counts and with occasional coverage duties.  He's $5M this year and you gotta figure wants more - can/will GB pony up?  He's gotta be licking his chops at the idea of going to a 4-3 like CAR that is desperate for an edge pass rusher.

Vic Beasley - Seems like the same case for Mack from last year.  He was actually listed at DE as a rookie but changed, and I could never figure that out.  Quinn's a SEA origin and from that 4-3 system.  How often does Beasley play with his hand down?  He's got 14 sacks so he can get home fast.  He'd be DE7 in my 16 man league.

 

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4 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

That's kind of my question - they knew this was going to be a train wreck, and they are on year one of a rebuild.  Are they really surprised or disappointed enough to actually fire someone already?  I can't imagine anyone's getting promoted from the staff either, so why would anything change?

If it's just a guess by OP because "they are bad" I'm not interested in throwing pasta against the wall to see if anything sticks, but I'm all about peeking under the hood and determining what's got a good basis for speculation and getting in front of it.  That's how juggernauts are born, when you get a couple of those right for min bids.  I had multiple chances to trade for Mack cheap-ish last year when he was listed at LB.  Had I had any reason to believe the change would happen I would have jumped on it, but I couldn't afford to get stuck with an LB with his massive contract in those leagues.  Wish I had, and I'm looking for the next opportunity like that.

 

No one expected to go 0-16 and not be competitive in the 2nd half of the season, but everyone knew this roster was bad, and likely the worst in the NFL.  The QB injuries early in the season were all that was needed to send the season off the rails.  If anyone loses their job it's because Hue has identified them as not part of the solution, there isn't any pressure from above to make any changes.  Horton's treated this season as a giant preseason, mixing and matching personnel groups week-to-week to see what sticks.  I can't imagine he'd be doing that without his coach's blessing. His approach has me thinking he's trying to figure out who will be part of the 2017 defense, who will be part of position competitions, and who needs replaced.

I added Clowney for the same reason you laid out (2017's Mack), but since there probably won't be any coaching (and certainly won't be a team) change I'm not optimistic about that one.  I'll be fairly irritated if Beasley gets reclassed again.  Axed him preseason and he's currently owned.  Always thought his reclass was kinda grey.

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On 12/18/2016 at 5:49 PM, discountdoublecheck said:

Brandon Graham made the switch last off season. I'm going by ESPNs positions and looking to find the next guy that could get a huge boost in value.

If anyone has other LB that could get switched to DE feel free to throw them into this thread. Targeting potential defensive coordinator/scheme changes.

J. Hughes BUF

S. Lawson BUF

E. Ogbah CLE

 

I'm holding Hughes in my "big play" league hoping that he gets flipped back to DE.  Would see a big jump in value.

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1 hour ago, MAC_32 said:

No one expected to go 0-16 and not be competitive in the 2nd half of the season, but everyone knew this roster was bad, and likely the worst in the NFL.  The QB injuries early in the season were all that was needed to send the season off the rails.  If anyone loses their job it's because Hue has identified them as not part of the solution, there isn't any pressure from above to make any changes.  Horton's treated this season as a giant preseason, mixing and matching personnel groups week-to-week to see what sticks.  I can't imagine he'd be doing that without his coach's blessing. His approach has me thinking he's trying to figure out who will be part of the 2017 defense, who will be part of position competitions, and who needs replaced.

Yeah that's kind of my point, just guessing that coaches could be replaced isn't going to provide much value.  I need a lot more than that to start making moves on.

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X2 on Beasley, he played almost zero SLB, the main 3 were the two rooks and wheeler with some Worrilow sprinkled in. Beasley spent almost all his time at DE across from Clayborn

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Kerrigan in Washington. I want to say he was DE before but switched back.

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On 12/21/2016 at 4:03 PM, umjaker said:

Clowney I have been waiting all season for the MFL update, but never happened

MFL doesn't update during the season.

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In deep leagues, here are some free agent OLB's that would be DE if they sign with a 4-3 team. I'm only mentioning guys that aren't already mentioned. These are all UFA's -

Alex Okafor

Armonty Bryant

Datone Jones

Sam Acho

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On 12/20/2016 at 9:14 AM, MAC_32 said:

Doesn't sound like that's going to happen.  

Horton (3-4) out 

Gregg Williams (4-3) in

E. Ogbah becomes much more interesting now. 

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Williams doesn't run a 4-3. He runs what best fits his personnel. I.e. he ran primarily nickel in LA this year. 

This definitely increases Ogbah's chances, but we still have a dozen draft picks and $100m in cap space to go. 

I missed on Horton though. Didn't think Hue could/would move on from anyone. Doing so would put a lot more pressure on himself next year. Welp...

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McDermott will be switching the Bills to a 4-3. This is great news for Shaq Lawson and J. Hughes. All of these guys could potentially be available due to their LB classification. I'm going for the upside of Lawson. He reminds me of Everson Griffin, and with the favorable stat crew in BUF he could be a sneaky pick up.  

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So now that Lawson's switched, he's a buzzy breakout candidate (dlf, bleacher report)... But not among football guys staffers. Why the cold water?

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3 hours ago, tripp said:

So now that Lawson's switched, he's a buzzy breakout candidate (dlf, bleacher report)... But not among football guys staffers. Why the cold water?

I imagine that it's just harder to project a guy who didn't play last year to suddenly being an IDP factor simply because of a position change and I kind of agree with that. It's easier to project Hughes because we've seen him be somewhat productive. Lawson is a complete unknown - he was a high draft pick and a hyped prospect but now he needs to translate that to being a productive pro. Not to say he can't do it, but it's no guarantee, especially at the DL position. To me he's still just a longer term dynasty stash and I'd be surprised if he was startable this year.

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So the opposite appears to be happening with Carl Lawson :( Bengals are playing him as a hybrid rush OLB. He's impressing so far which I always thought he would do but man did I want to see him with his hand in the dirt.

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That was almost a foregone conclusion when they drafted him after Willis though, at least initially.

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On 6/15/2017 at 7:07 PM, RushHour said:

... he's still just a longer term dynasty stash and I'd be surprised if he was startable this year.

He's not even listed in their dynasty rankings.  Buffalo's first-round pick last year.  Color me puzzled.

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Norton and Rudnicki both have him in their projections, in the low-30s among DEs.

Odd that no one bothered to rank him in the top-80 DL, but the "rankings" for idp have always been a little halfbaked here compared to the projections...

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The IDP projections are always horrible here, they don't spend ample time on them, they can be ignored...

On a higher note, Melvin Ingram's value just tripled on mfl

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On 18/06/2017 at 7:38 PM, Robar said:

The IDP projections are always horrible here, they don't spend ample time on them, they can be ignored...

On a higher note, Melvin Ingram's value just tripled on mfl

If he stays there then sure.

Just hope he isnt switched back in their last adjustment.

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2 hours ago, Bojang0301 said:

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7419/melvin-ingram

Reported on the 12th he'd be a DE. Not sure why that would change between now and camp. They aren't running a 3-4 at all.

It depends on how they line up in base. If they line up Bosa at LEO and Ingram at SAM in a 4-3 under base, Rotoworld will change Ingram back to LB even though he aligns on the line of scrimmage on 98% of plays. Technically he aligns like a 4-3 SAM, even if he is on the ball, so they designate him as an LB. It doesn't make any sense but that's their system. Personally I believe that they will line up Ingram at LEO and Bosa at 5T in base, but the guy who does depth charts for Rotoworld has stated that he is not yet sure what position Ingram will ultimately end up having for this season so we will not know until training camp.

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1 hour ago, Louche said:

It depends on how they line up in base. If they line up Bosa at LEO and Ingram at SAM in a 4-3 under base, Rotoworld will change Ingram back to LB even though he aligns on the line of scrimmage on 98% of plays. Technically he aligns like a 4-3 SAM, even if he is on the ball, so they designate him as an LB. It doesn't make any sense but that's their system. Personally I believe that they will line up Ingram at LEO and Bosa at 5T in base, but the guy who does depth charts for Rotoworld has stated that he is not yet sure what position Ingram will ultimately end up having for this season so we will not know until training camp.

Thanks.

I was going to try and get Ingram in a couple of leagues where he would score incredibly well at DE, but its just looks too risky for now.

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3 minutes ago, scothawk said:

Thanks.

I was going to try and get Ingram in a couple of leagues where he would score incredibly well at DE, but its just looks too risky for now.

I think there's like an 80-90% chance he sticks at DE, but you never know...

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Posted (edited)

On 6/24/2017 at 6:52 AM, Louche said:

It depends on how they line up in base. If they line up Bosa at LEO and Ingram at SAM in a 4-3 under base, Rotoworld will change Ingram back to LB even though he aligns on the line of scrimmage on 98% of plays. Technically he aligns like a 4-3 SAM, even if he is on the ball, so they designate him as an LB. It doesn't make any sense but that's their system. Personally I believe that they will line up Ingram at LEO and Bosa at 5T in base, but the guy who does depth charts for Rotoworld has stated that he is not yet sure what position Ingram will ultimately end up having for this season so we will not know until training camp.

Bosa will be 3t or maybe some base end, Ingram is planned to be LEO.  3t is the key to that under defense, and Bosa is the best equipped option they have to play 3t, it plays right to his strengths.

edit: separated links

https://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2017/1/27/14366852/gus-bradley-defense-means-for-los-angeles-chargers-defensive-line
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7419/melvin-ingram

Ingram, 28, will transition from 3-4 outside linebacker to weak-side "Leo" pass rusher in new DC Gus Bradley's 4-3 scheme. His IDP value will increase with the move

Attochu is currently showing at LB so that's probably based on what little they saw in OTA's.  The problem is that Ingram is really good in coverage, so there's a chance that he plays more SAM and Attochu plays with his hand in the ground and gets LEO designation.  Attochu lined up at DE in college too.

http://boltbeat.com/2017/03/15/switching-to-a-4-3-defense-what-it-means-for-the-chargers/

I agree with your 80% number, Ingram is also their best pure pass rusher (although Bosa is a beast) and best fit at LEO too.  ATL insisted on putting Beasley at SAM even though he was their best edge rusher and wasn't very good in coverage.

Edited by Hankmoody
links got munged
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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Hankmoody said:

Bosa will be 3t or maybe some base end, Ingram is planned to be LEO.  3t is the key to that under defense, and Bosa is the best equipped option they have to play 3t, it plays right to his strengths.

https://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2017/1/27/14366852/gus-bradley-defense-means-for-los-angeles-chargers-defensive-line
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7419/melvin-ingram

Ingram, 28, will transition from 3-4 outside linebacker to weak-side "Leo" pass rusher in new DC Gus Bradley's 4-3 scheme. His IDP value will increase with the move

Attochu is currently showing at LB so that's probably based on what little they saw in OTA's.  The problem is that Ingram is really good in coverage, so there's a chance that he plays more SAM and Attochu plays with his hand in the ground and gets LEO designation.  Attochu lined up at DE in college too.

http://boltbeat.com/2017/03/15/switching-to-a-4-3-defense-what-it-means-for-the-chargers/

I agree with your 80% number, Ingram is also their best pure pass rusher (although Bosa is a beast) and best fit at LEO too.  ATL insisted on putting Beasley at SAM even though he was their best edge rusher and wasn't very good in coverage.

Last season Bosa would primarily play 5T in base and in sub he would play quite a bit of 3T but they would also line him out at 6-9T on some plays. Bosa himself has said this offseason that he will play less 3T than what he did last year, so it seems they are counting on Liuget to bounce back at 3T now that he returns to a scheme he's had success with in the past. Bosa's home should be 5T but they've said things that insinuate that he will line up wider on more plays in more of an attacking role. I'm not sure if this means that they will use him at LEO or if it means that they will play less 4-3 under and introduce some more wide formations.

Attaochu told ESPN that he is moving to defensive end and he's studying Clemons' Seattle tape from 2010-2011: 

"I've been watching a lot of film and really studying film on Seattle and teams that Gus coached from 2011 and 2012 and seeing players with similar skill sets as me and seeing how they capitalized in the scheme," Attaochu said.

http://www.espn.com/blog/los-angeles-chargers/post/_/id/20546/chargers-de-jerry-attaochus-homework-watching-chris-clemons-to-learn-new-scheme

To me the logical and best nickel lineup would be Ingram-Bosa-Liuget-Attaochu, but the thing that confuses me is that they've told Bosa that he will play less 3T. Maybe it just means that Bosa, Ingram and Attaochu will rotate at end and Bosa will also play a fair bit inside, but it could also mean that Ingram and Attaochu will rotate at LEO, Ingram will play some SAM in base, while Bosa will primarily play 5T. If that's the case it's not good for Ingram's position designation.

Beasley was basically a pass-rushing specialist who only played LEO, but the few snaps he got in base was at SAM. However, it will be VERY interesting to see his snaps this preseason as De'Vondre Campbell is moving to SAM with Ishmael and Riley fighting it out for WILL. With Campbell at SAM there shouldn't be a need to play Beasley there which could make Beasley a base DE or more likely a pure sub-package player at defensive end. Which means he should get a DE designation...but MFL doesn't change positions after the season kicks off so we're dependent on them seeing enough in the preseason and training camp to make that call. And if Campbell gets dinged and comes out for a couple plays, causing Beasley to get 2 snaps at SAM in the third preseason game, that might be enough for Rotoworld to keep Beasley at LB for another year... Basically if Beasley is the backup SAM in base and their primary LEO in nickel, then he's an LB in Rotoworld's world even if 98% of his playing time is at defensive end. It's all about the base.

Edited by Louche
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Posted (edited)

On 6/25/2017 at 7:07 PM, Hankmoody said:

Attochu is currently showing at LB so that's probably based on what little they saw in OTA's.  The problem is that Ingram is really good in coverage, so there's a chance that he plays more SAM and Attochu plays with his hand in the ground and gets LEO designation.  Attochu lined up at DE in college too.

Boom

Attaochu is listed on Roto at DE as of today.  MFL still has him at LB so you might be able to get this one through if you are quick and sneaky.

Edited by Hankmoody
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No update but looking into this more perhaps that's not a surprise:

Player Position Updates (Published Tue Jun 13 6:35:11 p.m. ET 2017)
Player Position Updates (Published Tue May 9 11:33:32 p.m. ET 2017)
Player Position Updates (Published Tue Apr 4 11:54:29 p.m. ET 2017)

It seems MFL imports positions changes about every 5 weeks.  This would put future ones at July 18th and August 23 if they hold to form with a couple more late adjustments.  This is pretty consistent with 2016:

Final Preseason Player Position Updates (Published Mon Sep 5 12:11:37 a.m. ET 2016)
Preseason Player Position Updates (Published Sun Aug 21 11:09:10 p.m. ET 2016)
Preseason Player Position Updates (Published Thu Aug 18 12:47:30 a.m. ET 2016)
Preseason Player Position Updates (Published Wed Jul 13 7:36:25 p.m. ET 2016)
Preseason Player Position Updates (Published Wed Jun 8 7:32:22 p.m. ET 2016)
Preseason Player Position Updates (Published Tue May 3 5:01:17 p.m. ET 2016)

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On 7/8/2017 at 7:02 PM, Hankmoody said:

Boom

Attaochu is listed on Roto at DE as of today.  MFL still has him at LB so you might be able to get this one through if you are quick and sneaky.

And boom...

The following player position changes will be made on Thursday, July 20th, to bring our player database up-to-date with the Rotoworld.com depth charts:

CLE: Cam Johnson from LB to DE

DEN: Zach Kerr from DE to DT

LAC: Jeremiah Attaochu from LB to DE

LAC: Chris McCain from LB to DE

LAC: Damion Square from DE to DT

LAR: Ethan Westbrooks from LB to DE

MIN: Datone Jones from DE to DT

MIN: Jack Tocho from CB to S

NE : Lawrence Guy from DE to DT

OAK: Dexter McDonald from S to CB

SF : Aaron Lynch from LB to DE

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Well it took a couple days longer than I thought it might but nice to see they stick mostly to their pattern.

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Ingram still at DL and now Attaochu as well?  Getting more and more confusing.  Do we think both will remain as DLs?

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2 hours ago, matttyl said:

Ingram still at DL and now Attaochu as well?  Getting more and more confusing.  Do we think both will remain as DLs?

Most likely yes.  But Ingram was a very good cover guy and if they aren't happy about whoever plays SAM (Emmanuel?) he may shift back, especially if Attaochu plays well.   Attaochu was a more natural DE in college and never really looked like he fit at LB so I don't think he moves back.  If I could only have one give me Ingram but I'd happily roster them both and wait it out. 

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43 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

Most likely yes.  But Ingram was a very good cover guy and if they aren't happy about whoever plays SAM (Emmanuel?) he may shift back, especially if Attaochu plays well.   Attaochu was a more natural DE in college and never really looked like he fit at LB so I don't think he moves back.  If I could only have one give me Ingram but I'd happily roster them both and wait it out. 

Attaochu is behind Ingram on the depth chart, though, right?

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1 minute ago, matttyl said:

Attaochu is behind Ingram on the depth chart, though, right?

Presumably, but not exactly etched in stone.  Ingram was a 1st rounder in 2012, Attaochu a 2nd in 2014.  Ingram has played more and had more success thus far, but it could be argued that's because he adapted better to playing the new scheme.  Both were 4-3 guys that played with their hand in the dirt in college.  Again, this might actually hurt Ingram (at least his fantasy designation) with as well as he's played in coverage.

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