JohnnyU

Patriots looking for a 1st and 4th for Garoppolo

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19 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Lol. No signs of slipping? Go look at Favre's and Peyton's 2nd to last years. They both showed 0 signs of slipping and had great years. Their last years? Big slip.

Go ahead and think that Brady is going to blow past both of them and have good seasons at 40-42 and maybe play till 45 like he says. History is not on his side and if he does last till 45 then at least you know the Pats were able to cheat again.

Not sure what is LOL...he is showing absolutely zero signs of slipping (actually he is moving better now than he was ten years ago) and unlike Manning he doesn't have a major neck injury and I don't think it's hard to imagine that he has taken better care of himself than Favre...that being said I fully understand he is at an age where things happen fast...that is very obvious...the point is that until he shows signs of slipping you keep riding him and try to win titles...no need to push him aside until he does slip...and when he does I'm not worried that BB won't be able to figure something out...

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I agree with Brady's father. When the end comes, it will not be pretty and it will be painful. A major injury is what will force Brady out. 

That's one of the main differences between Peyton and Brady. How many neck surgeries did Manning have and ended up with limited sensation in his throwing hand (allegedly)? Brady has been predominantly healthy while Manning was having medical issues. One big hit at some point between 39 and 42 will be the end of TB12.

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3 hours ago, Bronco Billy said:

I can absolutely judge McDaniels on his behavior in Denver, which was substandard for a high school coach, much less an NFL coach. He was literally clueless, immature, petty, and arrogant.  As a GB fan myself, I seriously cannot fathom why anyone would want McDaniels over McCarthy.  Perhaps you could flesh your opinion out for me a bit. 

Not worth it TBH... I won't change your opinion no matter what I reference. You think he sucks, that's fine, it's your opinion to hold. I think he's a promising HC

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Garoppolo is going to be a star (Romo level).  If he ends up on a team that has its #### together maybe a superstar (Brees level).

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz

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There are like 10 teams that have somewhat of a need at QB: BUF, NYJ, CLE, HOU, DEN, CHI, SFO, JAX, SDC, ARI, NOS. The point being, a third of the league needs long or short term QB help, and all it takes is one team to pony up the picks. 

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7 hours ago, stbugs said:

Effective for 2 games in his 3rd year in the system against teams that have 0 film on him on which to prepare.

Look at Wentz, perfect example. First 3 games, 2 games with 250+ yards, 2TDs and 0 INTs. Guess how many games he's had like that after the week 4 bye? 0. Not saying he won't improve, but DCs not having anything to prepare for helps QBs, especially, have better games.

With Brady's age, I would say this is a big red flag IMHO for NE to try and trade him. What that says to me is that they don't see him as the heir apparent to Brady and they don't want to have to sign him to an Osweiler deal.

Seems like your red flag is NE might want to trade him.   Lot of NFL teams that need a QB.   Most are misses, but this guy looks good. IMO

I also think Brady plays for another 4 years & plays at a high level.  Again, IMO.

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Just now, irishidiot said:

Seems like your red flag is NE might want to trade him.   Lot of NFL teams that need a QB.   Most are misses, but this guy looks good. IMO

I also think Brady plays for another 4 years & plays at a high level.  Again, IMO.

Yep, I think it's a red flag and lots of QBs look good in 1 or 2 starts. One guy is coaching the Cowboys now. I also just don't think Brady will last that long at a high level. He'll be 40 next year. Thinking he will play at a high level till 43-45 is really a stretch. If he does then there is no doubt he's been doing PEDs for bit.

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4 hours ago, Dr. Brew said:

Someone in here made a debatable point that you draft a QB 1st round every year until you find one that fits. I disagree with this to some extent but you can't be the Browns and keep trotting out nobodies and expect to win. The Browns HAVE to take a QB 1st or 2nd round. You have to have a central piece of your team to build around. Now, there is great value in some drafts to find a QB later, obviously we can all list off the number of examples.

I think the point is you have to have QB at a high priority until you have one. I agree with what you've said, too many reach too high and get hosed in the process. That's why they are picking top 5 every year it seems. 

Part of this also has to do with the much lower talent coming out of college these days

Agree, BUT you better have some sort of offensive line or you may ruin a young QB.   Lot's of parts involved.

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3 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Yep, I think it's a red flag and lots of QBs look good in 1 or 2 starts. One guy is coaching the Cowboys now. I also just don't think Brady will last that long at a high level. He'll be 40 next year. Thinking he will play at a high level till 43-45 is really a stretch. If he does then there is no doubt he's been doing PEDs for bit.

wild guess:  You dislike NE with a passion?

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9 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Yep, I think it's a red flag and lots of QBs look good in 1 or 2 starts. One guy is coaching the Cowboys now. I also just don't think Brady will last that long at a high level. He'll be 40 next year. Thinking he will play at a high level till 43-45 is really a stretch. If he does then there is no doubt he's been doing PEDs for bit.

There really are two issues here. First, NE has Jimmy G and TB12 under contract through next season. After that, there is little chance they can afford to pay both of them. Garoppolo is not going to stick around for back up money, so NE can franchise him. But they're not going to shell out close to $40M in a year just on the QB position. 

Second, Jimmy G's trade value won't get higher than it is now, so the Pats should entertain trade offers for him. 

If Brady has 3 more years in him, Garoppolo is not going to just stick around for what would have been six years as a back up.

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The Red Flag on the situation is Brady's age.  If this were 5+ years ago.....one could understand the Pats moving a potentially starting QB in the NFL.  As it stands, makes no sense to to move the guy unless they're certain is isnt' their future. 

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Brady is in the MVP discussion. sure he's old for the nfl but there's no sign he can't do it anymore

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5 hours ago, rockaction said:

I love how all the Pats fans think he's worth a first. It's so cute. 

It's like the Yankees in the late '90s with Ricky Ledee, etc.  

I know, it's not like Jimmy is a bonafide stud like Sam Bradford.

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I don't know what JG is worth, but how are we forgetting that Bradford was just traded for the same picks. 

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21 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

The Red Flag on the situation is Brady's age.  If this were 5+ years ago.....one could understand the Pats moving a potentially starting QB in the NFL.  As it stands, makes no sense to to move the guy unless they're certain is isnt' their future. 

Or they think Jimmy will be a solid qb, maybe even great BUT also feel Brady is far from done and know they can't keep both going forward. If I were a GM I'd give up a first in a heartbeat for an experienced qb with the upside of JG as opposed to drafting one. You have as good a chance getting a stud qb late as you do taking one in the first round, ask Dallas. First round picks, especially qb picks are total crapshoots.

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57 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Yep, I think it's a red flag and lots of QBs look good in 1 or 2 starts. One guy is coaching the Cowboys now. I also just don't think Brady will last that long at a high level. He'll be 40 next year. Thinking he will play at a high level till 43-45 is really a stretch. If he does then there is no doubt he's been doing PEDs for bit.

I dont think Brady needs to play at this level to be successful. That being said, i think he has a few more years AT this level.

Also i dont see how a team not being able to retain two QBs for an extended period is a red flag. The Pats literally cant afford to keep both, trust me i want them to keep both and ive done mental hypothetical gymnastics in the past devising scenarios where they could retain both, its just not happening even if they got it done now and the cap goes up ~10mil next year and the year after.

Edited by Run It Up

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Is there anyone here arguing that JG is worth a 1+ that ISN'T a Pats fan?

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5 hours ago, Bronco Billy said:

It's seems almost too obvious to say, but here it goes anyhow:

 

If Garoppolo were a franchise QB, NE would not put him on the block. With Brady's age, they do what GB did with Rodgers - keep the much younger franchise stud. 

 

If he is not a franchise QB, there is no way you part with a 1st rounder for him, much less a 1st and a 4th  Then you are trading for either a game manager, a place holder, or a backup  

 

NE knows him better than anyone. That NE is opting to put Garoppolo even remotely out there IMO means that they do not believe he is a franchise QB. 

 

If I can figure that out, so can every GM in the league. Sportswriters should be able to also. So for them to even give the story a sniff they are either ignorantly or intentionally being used by BB.  Either way, it's pretty damning to their credibility. 

Couldn't disagree more.

NE doesn't know if Jimmah is a franchise QB (neither does anyone else), but everyone knows Brady is.

Jimmah might be a franchise QB (fqb) in the same way numerous teams felt Bradford, Goff, Bortles etc might be franchise qbs, the patriots and everyone else dont know so it makes little sense for us to "hypothesize" as if they do.   

I agree that NE does know Jimmah better than anyone else but I don't see how one then makes the leap to they wouldn't trade him if they thought theres a chance he might really be good (in essence what u r claiming). If they (or any1 else) knew for certain he was a franchise qb (which is of course impossible at this point) he would be worth multiple 1st rd picks but they have no way of knowing that. There is lots of room between bust qb and fqb and many teams would be happy just to have a solid if unspectacular starter.

What NE does know is in brady they already have a franchise QB who will likely play at a high level for the next 2-4 years and they cannot afford to pay a backup, starter money. NE will do what they almost always do (whats best for the team) and in this case that will likely mean trading Jimmah away while his value is high.

To pretend the patriots won't get significant picks for Jimmah (at least at this juncture) and that the "story" has no validity seems rather silly.

Will the patriots get a first (likely late) for Jimmah? At this juncture I would say they almost certainly will. Is that because I feel he is a fqb? Nope, its because there is a dearth of starting caliber QBs in the league and it makes too much sense for some other team not to take a chance on him.

I don't understand how everyone seems to be focused only on the draft picks when the time and money investment are as (if not) more important. If you use a high draft pick on a qb u lose the pick AND you lose time and money hoping he will develop.  Imho much of that risk is mitigated with trading for Jimmah; you don't have to wait 2-3 years for him to develop (meanwhile losing time, money & opportunity to find the right guy) you only lose the pick(s). If he flames out year one you move on, but if you draft a potential fqb who flops you lose multiple years and much money.

FTR, I thought Mallett stunk and never thought they would get much for him and I didn't think much of Jimmah coming in but I have to admit he has shown promise. The qb market (like most) is driven by supply and demand and for that reason alone I would be surprised if Jimmah doesn't command at least a 1st or damn near close to it.

Peace

Edited by NE_REVIVAL
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1 hour ago, irishidiot said:

wild guess:  You dislike NE with a passion?

Nope, not at all. I used to go to games there when I lived in the area and I'd rather see them win this year than anyone else. I just think it is naive to think Brady will play at today's level for 3-6 more years (Boston mentioned 45) without "help." Nature is what it is and when football players hit a wall, they hit is hard. Two recent examples of QBs who played long HOF careers and one fell off drastically at 39 and the other at 41. Maybe Brady can make it, but it would be shocking and knowing how the Pats use every advantage, I wouldn't put PEDs out of the question. I am certainly not accusing him of anything like that now.

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

There really are two issues here. First, NE has Jimmy G and TB12 under contract through next season. After that, there is little chance they can afford to pay both of them. Garoppolo is not going to stick around for back up money, so NE can franchise him. But they're not going to shell out close to $40M in a year just on the QB position. 

Second, Jimmy G's trade value won't get higher than it is now, so the Pats should entertain trade offers for him. 

If Brady has 3 more years in him, Garoppolo is not going to just stick around for what would have been six years as a back up.

The $$$ is a good point, but based on actual cap money owed, it really would only be one year of doubling up (2018 since Brady could easily be released (retire) in 2019 with little dead cap). Also, Garoppolo's getting $20M per year after 2 games? After Brock Osweiler, something tells me that ain't happening again.

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2 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Nope, not at all. I used to go to games there when I lived in the area and I'd rather see them win this year than anyone else. I just think it is naive to think Brady will play at today's level for 3-6 more years (Boston mentioned 45) without "help." Nature is what it is and when football players hit a wall, they hit is hard. Two recent examples of QBs who played long HOF careers and one fell off drastically at 39 and the other at 41. Maybe Brady can make it, but it would be shocking and knowing how the Pats use every advantage, I wouldn't put PEDs out of the question. I am certainly not accusing him of anything like that now.

Don't put words in my mouth...I said Brady has said he will play till he is 45...he has been very open about this...it is absolutely no secret...I do think that it is a stretch but I do not think playing another three years at a high level is out-of-the-question...especially since he is currently playing at an MVP level this year and is absolutely moving better than he ever has in his career...

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2 minutes ago, Boston said:

Don't put words in my mouth...I said Brady has said he will play till he is 45...he has been very open about this...it is absolutely no secret...I do think that it is a stretch but I do not think playing another three years at a high level is out-of-the-question...especially since he is currently playing at an MVP level this year and is absolutely moving better than he ever has in his career...

Relax, I know you mentioned 45 and read your post that Brady said it. I put that in because I was responding to another poster.

Maybe I should accuse him of something if at 39 he's moving better than ever. That raises some suspicions.

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5 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:
6 hours ago, Bronco Billy said:

I can absolutely judge McDaniels on his behavior in Denver, which was substandard for a high school coach, much less an NFL coach. He was literally clueless, immature, petty, and arrogant.  

Yep.  It's true that he wouldn't be the first guy to not do well in his first head coaching job and then do well in his second, if it were to happen, but he #### the bed in his first stint, ending with him getting canned for cheating.  He was a failure on all levels in Denver, especially when you consider the history of the franchise. 

Well he did trade Cutler which was genius - so I'm giving little Josh a pass.

 

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2 hours ago, msudaisy26 said:

I don't know what JG is worth, but how are we forgetting that Bradford was just traded for the same picks. 

Bradford was/is a little different.  That was a team that thought they were a Super Bowl contender who just got their team chances blown up when Bridgewater went down.  

JG feels a bit more like an AJ Feeley or a Kevin Kolb.......

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I don't think a 1st and 4th is a crazy asking price at all.  However, there is a hell of a huge value gap between picks 1/97 and 32/128.   In the case of picks 32 and 128, would that be "crazy" to anyone? 

I personally do not want Garropalo on my Browns, and do not want them to trade the Eagles 1st to get him, but if they did then something of the value of 32/128 would not anger me.  Heck, our 2nd is pick 33, so 33 and a 4th?  I could live with that if our FO thinks JG is decent.

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10 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

Yep.  It's true that he wouldn't be the first guy to not do well in his first head coaching job and then do well in his second, if it were to happen, but he #### the bed in his first stint, ending with him getting canned for cheating.  He was a failure on all levels in Denver, especially when you consider the history of the franchise. 

 

McDaniels got canned for the same reason any other coach gets canned, because he was losing. Denver cheated the salary cap for their late 90's SB's under Bowlen: they don't give a crap if someone bends the rules a little.

 

8 hours ago, stbugs said:

Lol. No signs of slipping? Go look at Favre's and Peyton's 2nd to last years. They both showed 0 signs of slipping and had great years. Their last years? Big slip.

Go ahead and think that Brady is going to blow past both of them and have good seasons at 40-42 and maybe play till 45 like he says. History is not on his side and if he does last till 45 then at least you know the Pats were able to cheat again.

 

Peyton Manning showed 0 signs of slipping in his second-to-last year? You obviously didn't have him in fantasy. 

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Jarod Goff cost the Rams the #15, #43, #45, and #76 picks in the 2016 draft and their 1st and 3rd picks in the 2017 draft.

Bradford went for a #1 and #4. I don't care to research what the Eagles paid for Wentz (or what the Redskins paid for RG3), but it was plenty more than that.

JG (there's your abbreviation, btw), a 2nd round talent QB who spent a couple seasons being groomed by the best organization in football, is still young and is still cheap, and no other good options are available, isn't worth at least a 1st? Crazy. 

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13 hours ago, Dr. Brew said:

That's unfair. You can't judge McDaniels on his HC abilities when he had to deal with the Tebow disaster in Denver. He was basically forced to play him. I would love McDaniels in GB

He traded UP to draft Tebow

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9 minutes ago, msommer said:

He traded UP to draft Tebow

This is what I remember. He wanted to move up to get him in the first round and was thrilled when he got him.

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25 minutes ago, rockaction said:

This is what I remember. He wanted to move up to get him in the first round and was thrilled when he got him.

Yep. Giving McDaniels a free pass for Tebow is pretty insane

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11 hours ago, grateful zed said:

myabe they are high on brisket?

Who isn't? :excited:

11 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

There are like 10 teams that have somewhat of a need at QB: BUF, NYJ, CLE, HOU, DEN, CHI, SFO, JAX, SDC, ARI, NOS. The point being, a third of the league needs long or short term QB help, and all it takes is one team to pony up the picks. 

If someone told us last year that the list would include JAX, they'd have been labeled crazy.  Blake should rebound.  Denver won't go after another young qb yet, absolutely won't trade with the Patriots for jimmy.  Houston might actually be a good fit if they're willing to eat Brock.

11 hours ago, msudaisy26 said:

I don't know what JG is worth, but how are we forgetting that Bradford was just traded for the same picks. 

Different situation due to timing and that trade doesn't look good in hindsight (nor did it at the time).  But yes, if a contender lost their qb in August and jimmy were available, it could work. 

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11 hours ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

 

What NE does know is in brady they already have a franchise QB who will likely play at a high level for the next 2-4 years 

 

This is where the argument falls apart. NE does not know this, even if they might think so.

 

History and Brady's age simply is not on their side. Those are facts that they do indeed know.  And if they believe Garoppolo truly is a future star then they will be in the Favre/Rodgers position, and knowing how NE has dealt with vets in the past as it pertains to their own self interest they would be choosing Garoppolo over Brady.  It gives them another decade and a half of stability at the position and they can burn their picks continuing to maintain the level of excellence that the franchise currently has.  You don't sell that out to make a 40 yr old QB feel better as he goes to pasture.

 

But if they really are willing to deal Garoppolo right now, the reason they are doing it is because they don't see him as a franchise guy.  

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2 hours ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

This is where the argument falls apart. NE does not know this, even if they might think so.

 

History and Brady's age simply is not on their side. Those are facts that they do indeed know.  And if they believe Garoppolo truly is a future star then they will be in the Favre/Rodgers position, and knowing how NE has dealt with vets in the past as it pertains to their own self interest they would be choosing Garoppolo over Brady.  It gives them another decade and a half of stability at the position and they can burn their picks continuing to maintain the level of excellence that the franchise currently has.  You don't sell that out to make a 40 yr old QB feel better as he goes to pasture.

 

But if they really are willing to deal Garoppolo right now, the reason they are doing it is because they don't see him as a franchise guy.  

You keep saying franchise guy as if he is the next Brady or Rodgers...maybe they see him as a good QB but not a generational talent (still a very valuable commodity in the NFL...especially when you see what a lot of teams are rolling out)...maybe they like Brisset (who they used a third round pick on while still having both Brady and Jimmy G) and see him as a better long-term fit especially when you factor the contract status of both youngsters...or (and I know you seem to want to disregard this but it's the easiest scenario for trading him) they think they are going to get at least three more years of top-end production out of Brady and the timing with Jimmy G just does not mesh...also, Brady is not like every other player as he is their undisputed leader and sets the tone for everything that happens in that locker-room (and yes, I do think BB will move on from him if he loses faith in him...it's just not now)...there are multiple ways this could be looked at and I would not be surprised by any of them (including keeping Jimmy G for another year as insurance) but if I did have to bet I would say they deal him to get assets (i.e. draft picks that make low-money...especially since they will probably be giving good money to players like Hightower and Butler this offseason), groom Brisset and if they are not happy with him address the position again with a higher pick in 2018...

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16 hours ago, Thunderlips said:

The Red Flag on the situation is Brady's age.  If this were 5+ years ago.....one could understand the Pats moving a potentially starting QB in the NFL.  As it stands, makes no sense to to move the guy unless they're certain is isnt' their future

Depends on how far out that future is.  By all reports, Brady takes very good care of himself and another two or three years seems realistic.  As people have mentioned, Garrapolo is only cheap through next season.  If Belichick has confidence in Brady (not doubting that), I can see him moving a backup QB for an asset he can use now.

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Don't care how much confidence you have in a QB, when he's 40 years old you know it won't go on forever.

Really tough decision to make re: Garoppolo.  Can almost guarantee they really like him and think he's starter material.

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4 hours ago, Bronco Billy said:

This is where the argument falls apart. NE does not know this, even if they might think so.

History and Brady's age simply is not on their side. Those are facts that they do indeed know.  And if they believe Garoppolo truly is a future star then they will be in the Favre/Rodgers position, and knowing how NE has dealt with vets in the past as it pertains to their own self interest they would be choosing Garoppolo over Brady.  It gives them another decade and a half of stability at the position and they can burn their picks continuing to maintain the level of excellence that the franchise currently has.  You don't sell that out to make a 40 yr old QB feel better as he goes to pasture.

But if they really are willing to deal Garoppolo right now, the reason they are doing it is because they don't see him as a franchise guy.  

Fair points but nothing is ever guaranteed, certainly not 15 years of success from Garoppolo.  Few teams hit on consecutive QBs; Montana/Young, Favre/Rodgers.  Other extreme is a franchise can languish for decades without the right QB.  Personally, I haven't been happy since Marino.  One would think NE offers a better environment for success than the more dysfunctional franchises.

I think Brady is still at a high level; they expect him to stay there for a bit (agree that no one beats father time); and they believe his ability to run their offense proficiently will continue even with some loss of physical skills (based on intellect, familiarity, etc.).  Moving Garropolo could even be the best thing for Garropolo himself.

That being said, I've long wondered if Brady will ever get the treatment some of the other vets have gotten over the years.  Montana, Favre, and even Manning all felt they had more to give when their teams thought it was time to move on.

They may or may not see Garropolo as a franchise guy.  I think the whole thing depends more on Brady's ability and the timing of contractual obligations.

 

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4 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Don't care how much confidence you have in a QB, when he's 40 years old you know it won't go on forever.

Really tough decision to make re: Garoppolo.  Can almost guarantee they really like him and think he's starter material.

Can't argue with that but you also can only put so much money into the position.  So, if Garroplo needs to be paid before Brady is done you have a problem.  Commit the money to two QBs?  Move on from Brady?  Tough choices - it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

One more point is Belichick himself.  How does his mind work?  Is he so confident in his ability to mine and develop a player that Garroplo is expendable?  I think Belichick approaches things differently than your average guy.

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On 12/28/2016 at 10:40 AM, JohnnyU said:

A first and fourth was what the Vikings traded the Eagles for Sam Bradford.

 

Yes, while the Vikings had just lost Teddy Bridgewater in the pre-season on what they believed was a "win now" type of year with the defense they had and Adrian Peterson getting close to retirement/drop off. The Vikings were desperate, and it was so close to the season that asking a team to trade their then-starting QB was going to require more compensation that what it would have cost them during the off-season. QBs are always going to be overpaid and overvalued even when they aren't good because their position is so crucial to team success. But expecting this to set the market is kind of crazy.

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