SeanTaylor21

Does your league count tackles for offensive players?

38 posts in this topic

Way back in 2011 our league decided to eliminate tackles for offensive players (QBs touching a downed DE after a strip sack recovery, tackling a defender after an INT, etc...). 

It has been requested by an owner to allow offensive tackles to apply, but there is strong pushback due to the fact that they allow really infrequent and fluky anyway.

Anybody have some thoughts they could share?

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Do you award points for safeties?  Blocked kicks?  Those are far more "infrequent and fluky" than an offensive tackle, yet no one thinks that awarding fluky plays is a problem there.

If a player makes a play, he should get credit imo.

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22 minutes ago, Arodin said:

Do you award points for safeties?  Blocked kicks?  Those are far more "infrequent and fluky" than an offensive tackle, yet no one thinks that awarding fluky plays is a problem there.

If a player makes a play, he should get credit imo.

This is the same argument the owner has. There's no defense to it other than  the fact we allow the other fluky plays because they are people doing their intended job.

I appreciate your reply.

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6 minutes ago, BigSteelThrill said:

Absolutely not.

Care to elaborate as to why?

Thanks for your reply.

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Just now, SeanTaylor21 said:

Care to elaborate as to why?

Thanks for your reply.

Because we have defensive players who score for defensive actions -- full IDP.

Our rules have complete clarity on all the NFL happenstances regarding scoring. And as such we have zero consternation's in that regards. Very pleasing to league members.

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9 minutes ago, BigSteelThrill said:

Because we have defensive players who score for defensive actions -- full IDP.

Our rules have complete clarity on all the NFL happenstances regarding scoring. And as such we have zero consternation's in that regards. Very pleasing to league members.

I'm in agreement with your league's setup.  I have read on another site that they (Elias) does not always review offensive player tackles as part of stat corrections.

We start a full 11 man IDP defense and we already complain enough about biased or assiat heavy stat crews.

Thanks for your clarification.

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Hmmm I'm in 3 IDPs, all 3 count any offensive stat for any player whether they are primarily offensive or defensive. Only 1 of the 3 does the same thing for defensive stats. So on ST in 2 of the leagues defensive players can accrue points for tackles while offensive players can not. Totally whacked IMO.

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56 minutes ago, Dezbelief said:

Hmmm I'm in 3 IDPs, all 3 count any offensive stat for any player whether they are primarily offensive or defensive. Only 1 of the 3 does the same thing for defensive stats. So on ST in 2 of the leagues defensive players can accrue points for tackles while offensive players can not. Totally whacked IMO.

What's worse is that, 99% of the time, offensive players can get docked for special teams fumbles, despite not getting credit for tackles or touchdowns...

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8 hours ago, Dezbelief said:

Hmmm I'm in 3 IDPs, all 3 count any offensive stat for any player whether they are primarily offensive or defensive. Only 1 of the 3 does the same thing for defensive stats. So on ST in 2 of the leagues defensive players can accrue points for tackles while offensive players can not. Totally whacked IMO.

I hadn't considered offensive players playing special teams. In my case as a LQ Treadwell owner, that's all he was in the field for :X

Thanks for your feedback!

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In my full IDP league we get points for tackles for offensive players.  I don't understand why you wouldn't give them points for tackles.  That tackle is just as important as any other tackle that happens during the game.  Why shouldn't they get points for the tackles?  It's nice when your QB throws a pick (for -3 pts) and then he gets the tackle (+1 point).  It takes some of the sting away from the pick.

 

I do agree with the BigSteelThrill that regardless of your scoring system it must be clear and documented so everyone knows what gets what.  Otherwise you will have issues.

 

I have played in leagues that do it both ways and I prefer awarding points for all tackles regardless of where or when they happen.  It seems like the more complete way to score the game.

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On 12/29/2016 at 5:55 PM, SeanTaylor21 said:

Way back in 2011 our league decided to eliminate tackles for offensive players (QBs touching a downed DE after a strip sack recovery, tackling a defender after an INT, etc...). 

It has been requested by an owner to allow offensive tackles to apply, but there is strong pushback due to the fact that they allow really infrequent and fluky anyway.

Anybody have some thoughts they could share?

We allow scoring for a lot of fluky things, like pick-6 returns, 99 yard TD receptions... 

On 12/29/2016 at 8:11 PM, BigSteelThrill said:

Because we have defensive players who score for defensive actions -- full IDP.

Our rules have complete clarity on all the NFL happenstances regarding scoring. And as such we have zero consternation's in that regards. Very pleasing to league members.

Does your league count offensive points for IDP - touchdowns for a pick 6 or fumble recovery, or the occasional defensive lineman scoring a touchdown (or throwing for one)?  IMO, FF should give credit for all players equally, position doesn't matter in that regard.  WR passes for a TD = QB passes for a TD, QB catches a TD = WR TD reception, WR tackles a corner after the QB throws an INT = corner tackling the WR.  etc. 

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On 12/29/2016 at 9:11 PM, BigSteelThrill said:

Because we have defensive players who score for defensive actions -- full IDP.

Our rules have complete clarity on all the NFL happenstances regarding scoring. And as such we have zero consternation's in that regards. Very pleasing to league members.

Do those defensive players get points if they catch a TD pass?

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6 hours ago, FUBAR said:

We allow scoring for a lot of fluky things, like pick-6 returns, 99 yard TD receptions... 

Does your league count offensive points for IDP - touchdowns for a pick 6 or fumble recovery, or the occasional defensive lineman scoring a touchdown (or throwing for one)?  IMO, FF should give credit for all players equally, position doesn't matter in that regard.  WR passes for a TD = QB passes for a TD, QB catches a TD = WR TD reception, WR tackles a corner after the QB throws an INT = corner tackling the WR.  etc. 

TDs yes. Not passing, reception or rushing TDs. You can put them at the appropriate position (qb/rb/wr) if you want to though -- and it will count.

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3 hours ago, Hankmoody said:

Do those defensive players get points if they catch a TD pass?

Offensive roles and defensive roles.  Etched in stone.

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Just now, BigSteelThrill said:

TDs yes. Not passing, reception or rushing TDs. You can put them at the appropriate position (qb/rb/wr) if you want to though -- and it will count.

:shrug: to each their own, but taken to an extreme you could say QB only gets passing points and not rushing. WR only gets receiving, etc. 

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Just now, FUBAR said:

:shrug: to each their own, but taken to an extreme you could say QB only gets passing points and not rushing. WR only gets receiving, etc. 

Offensive roles. Defensive roles. No need for a strawman.

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5 minutes ago, BigSteelThrill said:

Offensive roles. Defensive roles. No need for a strawman.

Except it isn't a strawman, because NFL teams sometimes play "offensive" players on "defense" and vice versa.

They are only "etched in stone" in your fantasy league, not in the real sport we claim to simulate.

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Arodin said:

Except it isn't a strawman, because NFL teams sometimes play "offensive" players on "defense" and vice versa.

They are only "etched in stone" in your fantasy league, not in the real sport we claim to simulate.

And you can play them as such in our league.

And saying that extreme option and knocking it -- is the EXACT definition of a strawman.

Edited by BigSteelThrill

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1 minute ago, BigSteelThrill said:

And you can play them as such in our league.

And saying that extreme option and knocking it -- is the EXACT definition of a strawman.

And the NFL can play them on both sides of the ball in the same game.  They don't have to declare a position and play them only there. 

Neither Cameron Meredith nor J.J. Watt have to be declared a QB by their NFL teams in order to throw TD passes.  I'm still not seeing what advantage is gained in fantasy ball for requiring such.

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Just now, Arodin said:

And the NFL can play them on both sides of the ball in the same game.  They don't have to declare a position and play them only there. 

Neither Cameron Meredith nor J.J. Watt have to be declared a QB by their NFL teams in order to throw TD passes.  I'm still not seeing what advantage is gained in fantasy ball for requiring such.

But when he is out there at QB -- he is out there at QB. In an offensive role... and he will need to adhere to all the positional rules as such. Like no two men in motion, no forward motion, must be set, must cover the tackle. As a DT he does not.

Offensive roles. Defensive roles.  ;)

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And I have never argued our-way/my-way was better then anything you guys espouse.

I'm just saying we have solid clarity on scoring rules.

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5 minutes ago, BigSteelThrill said:

But when he is out there at QB -- he is out there at QB. In an offensive role... and he will need to adhere to all the positional rules as such. Like no two men in motion, no forward motion, must be set, must cover the tackle. As a DT he does not.

Offensive roles. Defensive roles.  ;)

You just made my point for me.  Thank you.

When your fantasy player is catching a TD pass from his QB, he is in an offensive role, and has to follow the offensive rules in your fantasy league, such as "6 pts. for a receiving TD."  When the same player is tackling an opposing running back, he has to follow the defensive rules in your fantasy league, such as "1 pt. for a tackle."

Clear as day.

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42 minutes ago, BigSteelThrill said:

And I have never argued our-way/my-way was better then anything you guys espouse.

I'm just saying we have solid clarity on scoring rules.

:hifive:

To each their own, I like having the player score for everything (ff relevant) he does. 

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On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 1:46 PM, BigSteelThrill said:

Offensive roles and defensive roles.  Etched in stone.

That being the case you have an argument that a WR cannot get points for throwing a TD unless you started him in the QB position.  Same with a RB for receiving TD's. 

 

You can be "etched in stone" and not be as rigid.  Clear rules are one thing (and they should be clear) but limiting scoring due to not being played at a certain position seems counter for a game made up strictly on stats.  Offensive players get tackles.  Defensive players sometimes play on offense.  Stats are stats.  Seems like a game focused on stats should score those stats equally for everyone.

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2 hours ago, Gally said:

That being the case you have an argument that a WR cannot get points for throwing a TD unless you started him in the QB position.  Same with a RB for receiving TD's.

Not in our league. He is offensive, he would even get points for kicking field goals.

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26 minutes ago, BigSteelThrill said:

Not in our league. He is offensive, he would even get points for kicking field goals.

Your scoring is so rigid on offense vs defense but very relaxed within an offense or defense designations.  Seems contradictory with respect to the philosophical reasons of your scoring system.  I am not saying it is right or wrong.......just inconsistent philosophically. 

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We have none of these discussions or problems for 3 decades. Total consistency.

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1 hour ago, BigSteelThrill said:

We have none of these discussions or problems for 3 decades. Total consistency.

I am not saying it is a problem.  I am just saying there are philosophical inconsistencies. 

 

In addition, if  you have been doing this same scoring for over 3 decades I would assume that the scoring was based on availability at the time.  I know in my long time league (started in 1985) we have scoring that is antiquated because it was all we could do at the time.  We have updated it some over the years (always making clear designations prior to any season starting so everyone is clear on the rules) but we have changed to account for the upgrade in options through technology. 

 

I would venture a guess that you didn't always have IDP's in this three decade old league so you made some changes over the years.  Obviously your league likes the set up so no reason to change but I was just trying to point out the philosophical inconsistencies associated with allowing non-QB positions on offense to get points throwing but not to get points for tackles.  The rules are clear but the philosophy is contradictory.....not that there is an issue if everyone likes it that way.

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IDPs since day one. 9 of them at onset - now at 11. Very minimal scoring changes over the years. We have a fully printed 3-ring-binder constitution and all owners are local.

I just don't think we have much of any concern with waxing philosophically as a league -- when things run so darn smoothly.

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6 hours ago, BigSteelThrill said:

Not in our league. He is offensive, he would even get points for kicking field goals.

FGs are special teams not offense.

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3 hours ago, Dezbelief said:

FGs are special teams not offense.

Don't think I want to unwrap this philosophical debate either.  :shiny: 

We've literally had 10-20 people sitting down in a room debating rules such as these for 6-8 hours every year since our inception at our off-season owners meeting. Quite the scene.

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If an offensive guy lines up and plays defense, then I think he should get whatever IDP stats that he accounts for, but he shouldn't get defensive stats while playing offense.  That's the reason we allow defensive players to get offensive stats, because they actually have to play offense to get them. It is cut and dry in my opinion. 

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On 1/4/2017 at 1:20 AM, BigSteelThrill said:

Don't think I want to unwrap this philosophical debate either.  :shiny: 

We've literally had 10-20 people sitting down in a room debating rules such as these for 6-8 hours every year since our inception at our off-season owners meeting. Quite the scene.

:shock::nerd:

;)

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We do include barbecue, beers and tequila.

Oh yeah - and ice cream! Because its always about 105 degrees in mid July.

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Mine do.  Seems obvious to me - they made the play, they should get credit.  It's all automated anyway, not like the old USA Today box score days where you'd occasionally find a rushing attempt by a TE or reception by a QB that would swing a game.

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In my IDP leagues, whatever a player does on the field he gets credit for, period.  Scoring for all positions (Offense and IDP) are exactly the same, nice and easy.

So if JJ Watt catches a TD pass he gets credit for the reception, receiving yards and the receiving TD just the same as a WR or a QB will get credit for a tackle they make off an INT.

Can't get any easier then that. :D

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