flapgreen

*2017 Chicago Bears Thread* Sunshine and Rainbows ahead

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This years second round pick and next years first. I hope I'm wrong, but that's my guess

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He's nowhere near worth that.  2nd at best.  I'd give a 3rd.

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2 hours ago, flapgreen said:

He's nowhere near worth that.  2nd at best.  I'd give a 3rd.

Currently posting this in the JG thread.  If the Bears give up two premium picks for him they're morons.  This is why bad organizations stay bad.

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According to Biggs this morning the Bears have the QB position as their top priority, not Jimmy.  He's a big part of the conversation but may not be their main priority.  Yesterday I heard the Bears were trying to put a package together to offer the Pats.  Possible this year's 2nd round pick and another next year.  No first round picks should be considered at all unless it's a contingency pick, like if Jimmy starts the whole season and leads them to the playoffs they will give up next year's first round pick.

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McCaskeys behind a workers’ compensation state senate bill to end disability benefits for pro athletes at age 35.
 

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15 minutes ago, flapgreen said:

McCaskeys behind a workers’ compensation state senate bill to end disability benefits for pro athletes at age 35.
 

I just heard about that on the radio as well.  This does not help them when it comes to FA at all.  There are fewer and fewer reasons for players wanting to play in Chicago.

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5 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I just heard about that on the radio as well.  This does not help them when it comes to FA at all.  There are fewer and fewer reasons for players wanting to play in Chicago.

These people are just nuts. 

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I'll be in a nursing home by the time this pitiful organization makes it back to a Super Bowl.  Going nowhere.  McCaskey's will make just as much money losing as they do winning.  No real reason for them to care.  It's an embarrassment with rich owners who aren't phased by losing.  Same as day one. 

Edited by flapgreen

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On 1/5/2017 at 10:21 AM, flapgreen said:

George is delusional and Fox is a bum,  but Pace seems to know his ####.  I expect them to spend a significant amount of money on the secondary. 

Secondary FA Targets:

Tony Jefferson

Eric Berry

Trumaine Johnson

Logan Ryan

AJ Bouye

Stephon Gilmore

LB:

Melvin Ingram

DL

Kawan Short

Chandler Jones

WR

Robert Woods

 

Edited by flapgreen

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Quote

DL

Kawan Short

Chandler Jones

Sigh, could of had him a few years back over Shae (Super Bowl Champ) McClellan. 

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2 minutes ago, Gustavo Fring said:

Sigh, could of had him a few years back over Shae (Super Bowl Champ) McClellan. 

There were plenty of other scrubs that are now considered Super Bowl Champs on that team as well.  

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3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

There were plenty of other scrubs that are now considered Super Bowl Champs on that team as well.  

Right on - just couldn't help myself putting that in there. 

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Well with the franchise tag window opening today, I guess offseason player decisions need to get moving with Jeffery as our first big one.

I honestly think my personal feelings are not to tag him again, I just don't see the point.  He's been a Bear for 5 years now, yes not all with this staff, but I think they really should understand who he is and what he can do by this point.  I think it's time to offer him a contract, probably top 6-12WR type contract and see what he does, or just let him go and get the comp pick.  If we franchise him again, I don't see ANY way he stays beyond this year, and I don't see how that helps this team in the long run.  We may have a new starting QB, and giving him an actual weapon that will be gone next year seems worthless.

If anything maybe the transition tag would be useful for him.  I think he may have a little overinflated opinion of his value, and maybe that tag gives him a chance to see that he's not worth what he thinks while still making sure that as long as a team doesn't completely overpay him (top 4 WR money or something that no way we will match) we don't lose him.

You get better as a team by drafting good players and then keeping them.  Would be a shame to lose one of the few good players Emory drafted, because even with his injury history (who doesn't have one) no question he's talented.  Just my 2 cents.

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25 minutes ago, The Tick said:

Well with the franchise tag window opening today, I guess offseason player decisions need to get moving with Jeffery as our first big one.

I honestly think my personal feelings are not to tag him again, I just don't see the point.  He's been a Bear for 5 years now, yes not all with this staff, but I think they really should understand who he is and what he can do by this point.  I think it's time to offer him a contract, probably top 6-12WR type contract and see what he does, or just let him go and get the comp pick.  If we franchise him again, I don't see ANY way he stays beyond this year, and I don't see how that helps this team in the long run.  We may have a new starting QB, and giving him an actual weapon that will be gone next year seems worthless.

If anything maybe the transition tag would be useful for him.  I think he may have a little overinflated opinion of his value, and maybe that tag gives him a chance to see that he's not worth what he thinks while still making sure that as long as a team doesn't completely overpay him (top 4 WR money or something that no way we will match) we don't lose him.

You get better as a team by drafting good players and then keeping them.  Would be a shame to lose one of the few good players Emory drafted, because even with his injury history (who doesn't have one) no question he's talented.  Just my 2 cents.

I can't imagine them tagging him this year as it would cost them over $17 million.  I would like to see him signed to a long term contract but it's going to cost a lot.  Rumor has it that he's looking for somewhere around $14.5 million a year for 5 years and anywhere from $30 to $60 million guaranteed.  I don't think the Bears come close enough to that.  I'm guessing they offer him something like $13 million a year with less than $30 guaranteed.

Odds are that Jeffery will no longer be with the Bears this season.

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6 hours ago, The Tick said:

Well with the franchise tag window opening today, I guess offseason player decisions need to get moving with Jeffery as our first big one.

I honestly think my personal feelings are not to tag him again, I just don't see the point.  He's been a Bear for 5 years now, yes not all with this staff, but I think they really should understand who he is and what he can do by this point.  I think it's time to offer him a contract, probably top 6-12WR type contract and see what he does, or just let him go and get the comp pick.  If we franchise him again, I don't see ANY way he stays beyond this year, and I don't see how that helps this team in the long run.  We may have a new starting QB, and giving him an actual weapon that will be gone next year seems worthless.

If anything maybe the transition tag would be useful for him.  I think he may have a little overinflated opinion of his value, and maybe that tag gives him a chance to see that he's not worth what he thinks while still making sure that as long as a team doesn't completely overpay him (top 4 WR money or something that no way we will match) we don't lose him.

You get better as a team by drafting good players and then keeping them.  Would be a shame to lose one of the few good players Emory drafted, because even with his injury history (who doesn't have one) no question he's talented.  Just my 2 cents.

I'd agree with a TY Hilton type contract, so pretty close to what you're suggesting.  And I think it will get done. 

Edited by flapgreen

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13 hours ago, flapgreen said:

I'd agree with a TY Hilton type contract, so pretty close to what you're suggesting.  And I think it will get done. 

Yeah, something like that, probably with some more guaranteed money, TY's contract was surprisingly low there.  Hopefully they can get that done, would be a good start to the offseason.

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2 minutes ago, The Tick said:

Yeah, something like that, probably with some more guaranteed money, TY's contract was surprisingly low there.  Hopefully they can get that done, would be a good start to the offseason.

I doubt Jeffery signs for anything less than $14 million a year and a decent amount of guaranteed money.  Some team is going to pay him what he wants.  I really think Jeffery is gone unless they tag him.

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I don't think the Bears have much of a choice but the re-sign him,  but he hasn't shown he's a top 10 guy over the past two years,  which is what matters.  Start overpaying for guys now and it won't stop. Still,  there will be another huge hole on the roster if he walks.  I think they work it out.  One of the only good drafted players they have left in their roster. 

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I don't think we should re-sign Alshon. He's not worth the money he wants. Time to move on, imo. 

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11 hours ago, flapgreen said:

I don't think the Bears have much of a choice but the re-sign him,  but he hasn't shown he's a top 10 guy over the past two years,  which is what matters.  Start overpaying for guys now and it won't stop. Still,  there will be another huge hole on the roster if he walks.  I think they work it out.  One of the only good drafted players they have left in their roster. 

Players get over paid all the time and it's been going on for years.  If the Bears gave Jeffery a contract for $14.5 million a year I think that would be in the top 5 yet.  What we need to think about though is what will that be in 2 to 3 years?  Chances are that contract will be outside of the top 10 by then after a lot of guys come off their rookie deals.  Now lets say Jeffery averages in the top 15 every year during his contract which is very possible if he doesn't miss too many games.  If he puts up a top 8 season but his contract is not in the top 10, wouldn't that be considered a deal?

The problem with most fans is that they are only looking at the current moment and not the future.  They look at what he just did and say that's not good enough to get paid that much.  I'm not saying the Bears need to sign him but it's important when signing a player to consider what that player's future production will be and what his value will be in the next few years.  

If the Bears really think he can be a top 15 WR for the next 5 years then sign him.  If not then tag him or let him go.

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I don't think Alshon is that good. Just because some teams overpay for players doesn't mean that's what the Bears should do. Time to move on. 

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7 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I don't think Alshon is that good. Just because some teams overpay for players doesn't mean that's what the Bears should do. Time to move on. 

Why don't you think he's that good?  Is it just because he missed some games?  If you actually look at his production when playing I think you'll find that he's actually pretty good.

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4 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Why don't you think he's that good?  Is it just because he missed some games?  If you actually look at his production when playing I think you'll find that he's actually pretty good.

Well, you're right. He is good... when he plays but he misses a lot of time and I suspect he's a little soft. 

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2 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

Well, you're right. He is good... when he plays but he misses a lot of time and I suspect he's a little soft. 

He missed games his rookie year due to a broken hand and he missed 4 games last year due to suspension.  So there was one season out of 5 where he had nagging injuries and that makes him soft.  If that's your criteria for being soft then you're going to have to include a lot of other really good football players.  Julio, Green and Dez could all be in that category.  Hell, even Megatron was often injured. 

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Those guys all produce when they are nicked up. If you like Alshon, great! I'm not a fan personally. I'd prefer the Bears cut the cord and find a better WR1. 

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8 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

Those guys all produce when they are nicked up. If you like Alshon, great! I'm not a fan personally. I'd prefer the Bears cut the cord and find a better WR1. 

That's fine.  I'm just curious as to why people feel that way.  I think most people's reasons are for the wrong reason or they don't quite understand all the details.  It's like people are just looking at the most basic information available and saying that he's not the good and since he's missed some games he's not reliable.  Once you dive a little deeper into his stats and actually watch the games you'll see that he is productive.

Just as a hypothetical if you look at Jeffery's average yards per game and multiplied it by 80 games, which is the max he could have played, he would have averaged 1,155 yards each year.  Who wouldn't want that every year?  That's only averaging 4.8 catches a game too.  If he would just average only 5 catches per game at the 15 yards per catch he's averaged and take that times 80 games he would average 1,200 yards each year.  Not bad.

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I don't think we should resign Alshon. He's been banged up a bit the last 2 years and with the PED suspension, is looking more like a liability. If he was willing to take a small discount, maybe. My thought though is that we need to get our house in order first. Get a QB and get a secondary so we aren't just giving away games. There are plenty of WRs out there who can probably be gotten at a reasonable price who will be serviceable. Give me Kendall Wright, Pierre Garcon or Robert Woods at a discount over Jeffery at his max.

Also I read something last year that leads me to believe Jeffery is money chasing. I can't  remember where so take it with a grain of salt but I read that Jeffery has been pretty free with his spending, to the point where he has already been lent money as a sort of advance on the large sums he is expected to receive in free agency. He's already spent some of that money he's going to get in this year's contract so he will be looking to maximize what he can pocket

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I've never heard that about his spending.  As for signing a FA WR it's very possible.  I don't care for any of them over the age of 30.  Kendall Wright and Robert Woods could be alright.  Kenny Stills is still very young and has some talent.  Cordarrell Patterson has been a let down at WR so far but he's a great return guy so that could be nice to have.

The problem is that a lot of those guys are still probably going to be trying to get more than what they're worth.  Just because they don't cost as much as Jeffery do not mean they are a discount or not over priced.  Which guys has the best chance to replace what Jeffery offered the Bears is the big question.

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14 minutes ago, gabes1919 said:

I don't think we should resign Alshon. He's been banged up a bit the last 2 years and with the PED suspension, is looking more like a liability. If he was willing to take a small discount, maybe. My thought though is that we need to get our house in order first. Get a QB and get a secondary so we aren't just giving away games. There are plenty of WRs out there who can probably be gotten at a reasonable price who will be serviceable. Give me Kendall Wright, Pierre Garcon or Robert Woods at a discount over Jeffery at his max.

Also I read something last year that leads me to believe Jeffery is money chasing. I can't  remember where so take it with a grain of salt but I read that Jeffery has been pretty free with his spending, to the point where he has already been lent money as a sort of advance on the large sums he is expected to receive in free agency. He's already spent some of that money he's going to get in this year's contract so he will be looking to maximize what he can pocket

As for the last part, I think you were hearing about is Fantrax (or whatever that company is) deal where they are trying to treat football players like investment stocks.  They sign a player they think will have large future contracts, and get investors together to give him some upfront money for a % of those future contracts.  So I believe the risk is on the investors not Jeffery, as I think they take a set % and hope that is more then they initially gave him.  I think it may also include media deals and other sports career related income streams, but again don't know all the details.

I have no idea and have never heard anything about his spending in particular, he actually seems to lay pretty low from what I can tell, so I'd be surprised if his spending was way out of whack, but could be.  I have worried a little bit that this Fantrax group could be a bad influence on his future contracts, and could make him harder to sign.

That being said, if they can come up with a decent contract, something below those top WR's I'd still like to see it happen.  If he wants to be the top paid WR or in that top tier class, yeah, I'd look at other options.  It will just be sad that the only high level skill player that we drafted in the 6 years before Pace is not going to make it to his second contract with us.

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Generally I agree, never want to see our home grown players go when they could potentially be top 10 at their position but I don't see him taking any kind of discount. I mean, we don't have a winning culture and we don't look to be getting one in the next year or two. Only way I see him returning at any discount is if his value took such a hit from the PED suspension and the down year that he stays for a year or two to rehab his value or if management somehow convinces him that we have a real QB plan that can give him a good look for another free agency shot in 3-4 years.

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4 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

That's fine.  I'm just curious as to why people feel that way.  I think most people's reasons are for the wrong reason or they don't quite understand all the details.  It's like people are just looking at the most basic information available and saying that he's not the good and since he's missed some games he's not reliable.  Once you dive a little deeper into his stats and actually watch the games you'll see that he is productive.

Just as a hypothetical if you look at Jeffery's average yards per game and multiplied it by 80 games, which is the max he could have played, he would have averaged 1,155 yards each year.  Who wouldn't want that every year?  That's only averaging 4.8 catches a game too.  If he would just average only 5 catches per game at the 15 yards per catch he's averaged and take that times 80 games he would average 1,200 yards each year.  Not bad.

I'm a Bear fan and very familiar with the details. Unfortunately, real football isn't as easy as taking your per game average and extrapolating out. I think Alshon is a bit of a diva, soft and basically unreliable. I could be wrong and obviously you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm ready to move on and I hope the Bears are too. 

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He's not worth what Julio and AJ are getting but the Bears should pay him that,  if there's no other choice.  The people saying let him walk are out of their minds.   Would be yet another huge whole on the roster over a couple million in cap space when the Bears have tons.  Don't be fools.  Get the guy signed and stretch it as long as you can to try and get the best deal. 

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On 2/17/2017 at 6:54 PM, Rhythmdoctor said:

I'm a Bear fan and very familiar with the details. Unfortunately, real football isn't as easy as taking your per game average and extrapolating out. I think Alshon is a bit of a diva, soft and basically unreliable. I could be wrong and obviously you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm ready to move on and I hope the Bears are too. 

Move on from one of the most talented guys on the team because you feel he's a bit of a diva?  I hope you were also in favor of when they got rid of Marshall, Bennett and Forte.

I agree that Jeffery seems to have a certain attitude that makes it seem like he doesn't want to be in Chicago but he hasn't been an issue.  He's not a guy that Marshall or Bennett that cause issues on the field, in the locker room or off the field.  His biggest issues are that he had one season with soft tissue injuries, didn't go to volunteer workouts and got suspended for PEDs.

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Alshon is talented and seems like a team guy, bring him back. Hopefully he will toughen up if the team improves. But really do we need to be creating more big holes?  We're fortunate in that we might be good at wr with White, Alshon, Meredith, so if we can cover a position before FA/draft even gets under way, that's big. 

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1 hour ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Move on from one of the most talented guys on the team because you feel he's a bit of a diva?  I hope you were also in favor of when they got rid of Marshall, Bennett and Forte.

I agree that Jeffery seems to have a certain attitude that makes it seem like he doesn't want to be in Chicago but he hasn't been an issue.  He's not a guy that Marshall or Bennett that cause issues on the field, in the locker room or off the field.  His biggest issues are that he had one season with soft tissue injuries, didn't go to volunteer workouts and got suspended for PEDs.

I liked BMarsh and thought it was a mistake getting rid of him. He wants to win and plays through nagging injuries. Those are guys you want on your football team, the Brandon Marshalls of the world. I'm ready to move on from this discussion. It's clear we have completely different outlooks on what players we want. Kinda pointless to keep digging until I agree with you, wouldn't you say?

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4 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I liked BMarsh and thought it was a mistake getting rid of him. He wants to win and plays through nagging injuries. Those are guys you want on your football team, the Brandon Marshalls of the world. I'm ready to move on from this discussion. It's clear we have completely different outlooks on what players we want. Kinda pointless to keep digging until I agree with you, wouldn't you say?

I'm just trying to understand some people's opinions because many of them seem misguided.  That's ok though and we'll move on.  So if you are ready for the Bears to move on from Jeffery then you must have a good idea on replacing him.  It wouldn't make much sense to let one of the best players on the team go if there isn't a plan for replacing him.

At least when they traded Marshall they knew they had Jeffery to replace him and they were going to draft a WR with their first pick to opposite him.  There was a plan.  I'm not sure what that plan would be now.

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9 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I'm just trying to understand some people's opinions because many of them seem misguided.  That's ok though and we'll move on.  So if you are ready for the Bears to move on from Jeffery then you must have a good idea on replacing him.  It wouldn't make much sense to let one of the best players on the team go if there isn't a plan for replacing him.

At least when they traded Marshall they knew they had Jeffery to replace him and they were going to draft a WR with their first pick to opposite him.  There was a plan.  I'm not sure what that plan would be now.

Listen, I'm not really that invested in the Bears to be honest.  I care way more about my fantasy teams.  That said, I love Jordan Howard and think the bears should continue to focus on the running game.  Cutler sucks and we need to move on from him before we do anything with Alshon.  Unfortunately, this draft class is not going to provide us with a true franchise QB, so I hope the Bears don't get sucked into that line of thinking, if so, we're doomed for another 4 years.  If we end up keeping Alshon, it won't be the end of the world.  I just think, similar to the Cutler signing, it will prove to be a bad move, especially at $14MM per.  Alshon has not earned that kind of money to this point.  If we could get him at $10MM per, then that's a good deal and I'm in favor of seeing if he can consistently be the WR we've seen in spurts.  Bottom line, we need a QB and there are none to draft.  I'm probably in the minority here but I think the Bears should sign Romo to a short term deal and then focus on a franchise QB in the 2018+ drafts.  With Howard proving to be the real deal and an improving defense and IF Alshon can play all year and perform well, we could actually make the playoffs in that scenario (Romo signed and stays healthy).  The only certainty as a Bear fan is that Cutler needs to go ASAP.

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Signing Romo makes almost zero sense for the Bears and Romo.  Romo wants to play on a winning team before he's done, that isn't the Bears.  The Bears need a franchise QB which Romo is no longer.  If they are going to get a guy just to get them by that's still not Romo because he's old, injury prone and most likely not all that cheap.  If you just want a guy to start while grooming a rookie then stick with Cutler or Hoyer.  I think I'd rather the Bears trade for Garoppolo than sign Romo unless he is willing to sign some super friendly deal because no other team wants him.

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So you'd rather have an expensive QB that abslutely sucks (Cutler) than a similarly priced QB who is good (Romo)?  I'm assuming both QBs would cost the same and neither would be the answer longterm but one is good and one is not.  You'd prefer to stick with the one who is not good?  Interesting.

Mark me down as wanting the better QB who could make us competitive while we shop for a franchise guy.  All things equal, I don't know why you'd choose Cutler.

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18 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

So you'd rather have an expensive QB that abslutely sucks (Cutler) than a similarly priced QB who is good (Romo)?  I'm assuming both QBs would cost the same and neither would be the answer longterm but one is good and one is not.  You'd prefer to stick with the one who is not good?  Interesting.

Mark me down as wanting the better QB who could make us competitive while we shop for a franchise guy.  All things equal, I don't know why you'd choose Cutler.

Cutler is already under contract which is perfectly in line with his performance.  They would have to sign Romo to a new contract.  Romo hasn't played a whole lot the last few years and I have no idea if he would perform better than Cutler on the Bears.  It's like you want Romo just for the sake of not having Cutler anymore.  That's not a good enough reason for me.

I'm looking long term for the Bears here.  Where is this team going to be?  Does having Romo for two years really do much for them?  What will Romo do that Cutler hasn't done?  Are you looking for 7 wins next year instead of 5 or 6?  What is the ultimate goal?

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