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The Mexico Border Wall Thread: Still No Wall

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35 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

Isn't there any electronics and / or drones too?  A wall by itself isn't going to work, you have to have the wall + new technology working for you.

Pretty much been the main talking point for those that oppose the wall but want increased security the whole time.   Some Dems have been argueing this.  Wall alone won't work or do much.  Technology, drones, electronics, etc. will help more.  The actual wall only solves trump's desire for a monument and adds billions to the cost.

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8 minutes ago, beef said:

Pretty much been the main talking point for those that oppose the wall but want increased security the whole time.   Some Dems have been argueing this.  Wall alone won't work or do much.  Technology, drones, electronics, etc. will help more.  The actual wall only solves trump's desire for a monument and adds billions to the cost.

Need both wall and technology.  One without the other is just as bad

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31 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

Need both wall and technology.  One without the other is just as bad

How about neither? Both are terrible for us. I know this is an unpopular idea but it would really be better for America to have a porous border. 

I’m not suggesting open borders but I AM suggesting we just look the other way and not treat it like it’s some terrible thing. Treat it like jaywalking.  

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5 hours ago, timschochet said:

How about neither? Both are terrible for us. I know this is an unpopular idea but it would really be better for America to have a porous border. 

I’m not suggesting open borders but I AM suggesting we just look the other way and not treat it like it’s some terrible thing. Treat it like jaywalking.  

So not open borders, just wink wink open borders. 

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31 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

So not open borders, just wink wink open borders. 

Pretty much yeah. 

Look I’ve never understood why this is such a huge issue for so many people. These people don’t take jobs away, they contribute far more to society than they cost, they commit far less violent crime than people born here, and their children almost always become productive members of society. Plus they’ve been coming across our southern border ever since we had one and it’s never been a big deal. Ronald Reagan wanted to amnesty all of them. 

So why so much concern? 

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On 11/2/2019 at 8:59 PM, timschochet said:

Pretty much yeah. 

Look I’ve never understood why this is such a huge issue for so many people. These people don’t take jobs away, they contribute far more to society than they cost, they commit far less violent crime than people born here, and their children almost always become productive members of society. Plus they’ve been coming across our southern border ever since we had one and it’s never been a big deal. Ronald Reagan wanted to amnesty all of them. 

So why so much concern? 

I disagree with most of this or at least think it is far too unsettled to have such a strong stance on it. 

I completely disagree that they don't take jobs away. I know for a fact that the trades use subcontracted illegal immigrants or just pay them cash. What the exact impact is, I am not sure, but they do take jobs. I know people love to throw out that they just take the jobs that americans don't want, but that doesn't really win the argument. Most people that are in favor of drastically restricting illegal immigration wouldn't want people to ignore available work and collect money other ways. Obviously this is a much deeper discussion, but the bold statement of "these people don't take jobs away" is not factual. 

As far as they contribute more than they cost, that is also far from settled. This sums it up best.

Quote

A precise cost is nearly impossible to ascertain, many experts said. That's in part because undocumented immigrants operate within the shadows, leaving their full fiscal contributions — and use of taxpayer-funded resources — at least somewhat unknown.

As far as the violent crime stats, those aren't settled fact either for basically the same reasons. Undocumented immigrants are far less likely to report crimes, we don't even know exactly how many UNDOCUMENTED immigrants (you know undocumented, like they aren't documented so we don't have data) so we can't make accurate predictions on this stuff. And regardless you are speaking in terms of "rates" which automatically makes this unsettled to begin with. If there were zero illegal immigrants, there would be zero crimes committed by illegal immigrants(that's obviously an absurd end of the spectrum, but it serves to prove the point). 

Also these studies always use a reference point the entire US population. That is all well in good, but is irrelevant to a person living in northern wisconsin that sees a spike in illegal immigrants in their town. The people in that town don't care about a study that used data that included the most crime ridden areas of milwaukee to create the baseline. It isnt representative of the crime rates in their area. These studies don't separate out data like that for obvious reasons. I actually agree with not doing such a study, but it is exactly why the whole concept simply shouldn't be touched altogether. The data is worthless and was probably in one way or another a waste of our tax dollars or donations to get it.

Now maybe the spike in illegal immigrants in that town actually helps it. Maybe it doesn't. That's kind of the point I am trying to make. Somebody that has the opinion it doesn't help them, isn't wrong factually.  

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9 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I completely disagree that they don't take jobs away. I know for a fact that the trades use subcontracted illegal immigrants or just pay them cash. What the exact impact is, I am not sure, but they do take jobs. I know people love to throw out that they just take the jobs that americans don't want, but that doesn't really win the argument. Most people that are in favor of drastically restricting illegal immigration wouldn't want people to ignore available work and collect money other ways. Obviously this is a much deeper discussion, but the bold statement of "these people don't take jobs away" is not factual. 

 

this can be resolved without a wall or technology.  go after the employers

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15 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I completely disagree that they don't take jobs away. I know for a fact that the trades use subcontracted illegal immigrants or just pay them cash.

They're not taking a job, they're being given a job. 

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4 minutes ago, jomar said:

this can be resolved without a wall or technology.  go after the employers

Not for the specific issue I mentioned(at least not subcontracting). 

 

Edited by parasaurolophus

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On 11/2/2019 at 8:59 PM, timschochet said:

Pretty much yeah. 

Look I’ve never understood why this is such a huge issue for so many people. These people don’t take jobs away, they contribute far more to society than they cost, they commit far less violent crime than people born here, and their children almost always become productive members of society. Plus they’ve been coming across our southern border ever since we had one and it’s never been a big deal. Ronald Reagan wanted to amnesty all of them. 

So why so much concern? 

I'm finding out one of the biggest reasons is that people are afraid of white's becoming a minority.  Some are afraid that they will no longer be the majority and will lose their culture.

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17 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

 

I completely disagree that they don't take jobs away. I know for a fact that the trades use subcontracted illegal immigrants or just pay them cash. What the exact impact is, I am not sure, but they do take jobs

I would argue they fill jobs, not necessarily take jobs. I can only speak for the area I was a subcontractor in which for the most part except during the depression years has been booming, since I move there in 1991. Most of those years I had to turn down jobs due to lack of employees. 

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Just now, parasaurolophus said:

Spin. 

Please explain how an undocumented immigrant takes a job without someone knowing who they are.

The "spin" is that someone can come in and TAKE some else's job. They can't.

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

Spin. 

Are these jobs that current Americans are looking to get?  Many of the jobs I see immigrants working are jobs that most Americans don't want to work.

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1 minute ago, Amused to Death said:

Please explain how an undocumented immigrant takes a job without someone knowing who they are.

The "spin" is that someone can come in and TAKE some else's job. They can't.

Just spin. Not worth playing word games. The guy at home without a job doesn't care about them either. 

Also you obviously have zero clue how subcontracting often works. 

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Just now, Amused to Death said:

Please explain how an undocumented immigrant takes a job without someone knowing who they are.

The "spin" is that someone can come in and TAKE some else's job. They can't.

They have the basic documents required to get a job.  The employers look at the minimum amount they have to look at and don't ask questions.  As long as everything looks good and they've looked at what the law requires them to look at then they don't care.

My friend works at a large golf course on the grounds crew and they hire a lot of Mexicans.  I asked if they were all legal because he said a lot of them speak very little English.  He told me they had the paperwork required to get hired and that was all they cared about.  They didn't ask any extra questions.

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

Just spin. Not worth playing word games. The guy at home without a job doesn't care about them either. 

Also you obviously have zero clue how subcontracting often works. 

The guy at home without a job is most likely not at home because Mexicans took all the jobs.  There are plenty of jobs out there to be had and businesses are struggling to find good help.

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4 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Are these jobs that current Americans are looking to get?  Many of the jobs I see immigrants working are jobs that most Americans don't want to work.

I specifically brought up the trades. I find the whole concept of "jobs americans don't want to work" awful to begin with, but ignoring that, I don't think anybody argues that painting, roofing, framing, drywall, etc are jobs that are beneath americans. If that is a common argument, we are in worse shape than I thought.  

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1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

They have the basic documents required to get a job.  The employers look at the minimum amount they have to look at and don't ask questions.  As long as everything looks good and they've looked at what the law requires them to look at then they don't care.

My friend works at a large golf course on the grounds crew and they hire a lot of Mexicans.  I asked if they were all legal because he said a lot of them speak very little English.  He told me they had the paperwork required to get hired and that was all they cared about.  They didn't ask any extra questions.

Did they get these document legally or is someone providing them knowing the immigrant doesn't meet the requirements to legally work. I just have a hard time exonerating everyone but the person who got the job illegally. Someone knows they're aren't eligible for the work. Especially if they're being paid under the table.

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1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

The guy at home without a job is most likely not at home because Mexicans took all the jobs.  There are plenty of jobs out there to be had and businesses are struggling to find good help.

Obviously yes, your scenario is correct plenty of times. But I also know for a fact the scenarios I bring up regarding the trades do sometimes hurt workers.

The point I was trying to make to Tim is that he cant make a blanket statement that they don't take jobs.  

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7 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Just spin. Not worth playing word games. The guy at home without a job doesn't care about them either. 

Also you obviously have zero clue how subcontracting often works. 

Continuing with my civil conversation....

Do the people paying them cash know they're not eligible for employment? Or is it a nod a and wink for cheaper labor?

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1 minute ago, Amused to Death said:

Did they get these document legally or is someone providing them knowing the immigrant doesn't meet the requirements to legally work. I just have a hard time exonerating everyone but the person who got the job illegally. Someone knows they're aren't eligible for the work. Especially if they're being paid under the table.

I have no idea.  My friend was not the person who hired them.  He just told me that they had the documents required and that's all.  Who knows if they were legit or how they got them.  I don't think they cared because they covered their butts by acquiring the documents needed.  I don't think they are responsible for making sure it's legit or not.  I don't think there is a ton of responsibility placed on businesses when it comes to hiring immigrants.

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10 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I specifically brought up the trades. I find the whole concept of "jobs americans don't want to work" awful to begin with, but ignoring that, I don't think anybody argues that painting, roofing, framing, drywall, etc are jobs that are beneath americans. If that is a common argument, we are in worse shape than I thought.  

I don't think those jobs are beneath Americas either. The problem is not enough Americans fill the demand of skilled labor needed for those jobs.

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

Obviously yes, your scenario is correct plenty of times. But I also know for a fact the scenarios I bring up regarding the trades do sometimes hurt workers.

The point I was trying to make to Tim is that he cant make a blanket statement that they don't take jobs.  

I think Tim's point was that it's not a big enough deal to really make that much of a difference.  It's not as bad as some make it out to be and I think it gets used to push an agenda.

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2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I have no idea.  My friend was not the person who hired them.  He just told me that they had the documents required and that's all.  Who knows if they were legit or how they got them.  I don't think they cared because they covered their butts by acquiring the documents needed.  I don't think they are responsible for making sure it's legit or not.  I don't think there is a ton of responsibility placed on businesses when it comes to hiring immigrants.

Which is fine, but my point is someone gave them documents. Seems there are other crimes being committed.

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@parasaurolophus: it’s not a surprise that we disagree on these issues. I would also point out that your POV is far more popular than mine is. And I would further add that I believe the facts are much more settled, and in my favor, than you give them credit for being. 

But for the sake of argument, let’s assume that every point you made is correct: that these people do take some jobs. That they cost more than they bring in. That they commit more violent crime than we think they do. It still begs the question: why is this such a dominant issue for conservatives? Why was Donald Trump’s promise to build a wall on our southern border considered the most important aspect of his entire campaign? Is @Hawkeye21  correct that this is really about racial identity? I don’t want to think so, but I have trouble believing that it would be such a huge issue if these were Canadians we were discussing. 

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1 minute ago, Mile High said:

I don't think those jobs are beneath Americas either. The problem is not enough Americans fill the demand of skilled labor needed for those jobs.

There are a bunch of reasons.  Some feel it is beneath them and a large amount just don't want to do it because it's hard work.  I think we all can agree that the average American's attitude towards manual labor has changed a lot over the years.

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16 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Not for the specific issue I mentioned(at least not subcontracting). 

 

I thought your specific issue was illegal immigrants taking jobs that Americans would normally fill.  how would penalizing companies who hire illegal immigrants, even if just subcontracted, not help that issue? 

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1 minute ago, Amused to Death said:

Which is fine, but my point is someone gave them documents. Seems there are other crimes being committed.

Definitely.

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12 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

There are a bunch of reasons.  Some feel it is beneath them and a large amount just don't want to do it because it's hard work.  I think we all can agree that the average American's attitude towards manual labor has changed a lot over the years.

Exactly. Especially among our youth. 

Edited to add: And I don't blame them, it is hard work, lots of times in terrible weather and when you get older your body feels it.

Edited by Mile High

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2 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:
6 minutes ago, Mile High said:

I don't think those jobs are beneath Americas either. The problem is not enough Americans fill the demand of skilled labor needed for those jobs.

There are a bunch of reasons.  Some feel it is beneath them and a large amount just don't want to do it because it's hard work.  I think we all can agree that the average American's attitude towards manual labor has changed a lot over the years.

It would seem worthwhile to automate jobs that there were too few applicants for. Isn't that fertile ground for innovation?

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6 minutes ago, msommer said:

It would seem worthwhile to automate jobs that there were too few applicants for. Isn't that fertile ground for innovation?

That's certainly an option for some jobs.  I know in my area we are struggling to find good mechanics.  There are not many young people who want to or even know about having a career working on farm equipment.  A good farm equipment mechanic can make a lot of money but it's hard work.

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6 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

They have the basic documents required to get a job.  The employers look at the minimum amount they have to look at and don't ask questions.  As long as everything looks good and they've looked at what the law requires them to look at then they don't care.

My friend works at a large golf course on the grounds crew and they hire a lot of Mexicans.  I asked if they were all legal because he said a lot of them speak very little English.  He told me they had the paperwork required to get hired and that was all they cared about.  They didn't ask any extra questions.

A good friend of mine used to use two different subcontractors for painting on the east coast. The people that he communicated with had documentation. On paper these were legit businesses. After enough jobs he became pretty certain that not only were the workers for one of them not legal, but the front man wasn't legal either(his brother showed up one day and had the same exact name, possible that two kids in a family are named the same, george forman says hi, but not likely). My friend wasn't their employer. He had no duty to dig into them or hire an investigator. My friend wasn't doing anything illegal. He finished out the year using them because he had booked production that way, but the next year he just hired a different subcontractor. Wasn't even that much more expensive either. 

Over the years I have come to realize that this is not actually that uncommon and I am pretty sure the guys that were subcontracted by my builder to do my roof weren't on the up and up either. 

Former tradesmen so it is an area I am familiar with. Taught some classes and trained people nationally, so fairly broad personnel experience.  

Also as far as the bold, in today's society you cant put the burden on employers for more than that. Can you imagine the negative PR that would result from a Home Depot pressuring an american born hispanic worker for more information? Press would gobble it up. 

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Unfortunately, I have been exposed to and dealt with the trades way too much the last three years with two multi-thousand dollar insurance claims on two different houses.  Starting in 2015 I've had many conversations with these guys and they are desperate for help.  They are desperate to teach someone what they know.  Every single one of them is offering apprenticeships in their respective fields.  Few take them up on it and they believe the attitude towards them is that those jobs are beneath.  This is over two states...SC and FL.  Is that enough to make a generalization about the country as a whole?  No...probably not.  But it seems to be the same story in two very different states.

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

Also as far as the bold, in today's society you cant put the burden on employers for more than that. Can you imagine the negative PR that would result from a Home Depot pressuring an american born hispanic worker for more information? Press would gobble it up.

I don't put that burden on the employers. I put it on whomever gave them the paperwork. Someone is illegally giving undocumented immigrants the proper paperwork to gain employment. Someone is illegally giving them the means to be hired over someone who is legal.

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20 minutes ago, jomar said:

I thought your specific issue was illegal immigrants taking jobs that Americans would normally fill.  how would penalizing companies who hire illegal immigrants, even if just subcontracted, not help that issue? 

I kind of answer this in my reply to hawkeye.  But I want to point out I am not arguing against punishing the companies that knowingly pay workers under the table. Of course they should be punished. But the company needs the worker to be available in order to pay them under the table. The worker needs somebody to pay them under the table, it is symbiotic. No reason not to enforce action against both. 

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1 minute ago, Amused to Death said:

I don't put that burden on the employers. I put it on whomever gave them the paperwork. Someone is illegally giving undocumented immigrants the proper paperwork to gain employment. Someone is illegally giving them the means to be hired over someone who is legal.

Aren't these the people the Mexicans are paying a ton of money to when they get them into the US?  They get them into the states and give them documents?  It's possible I'm getting all of this from a movie as well, my memory works in odd ways.

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3 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

I don't put that burden on the employers. I put it on whomever gave them the paperwork. Someone is illegally giving undocumented immigrants the proper paperwork to gain employment. Someone is illegally giving them the means to be hired over someone who is legal.

Document mills should absolutely be shut down as well. 

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8 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Unfortunately, I have been exposed to and dealt with the trades way too much the last three years with two multi-thousand dollar insurance claims on two different houses.  Starting in 2015 I've had many conversations with these guys and they are desperate for help.  They are desperate to teach someone what they know.  Every single one of them is offering apprenticeships in their respective fields.  Few take them up on it and they believe the attitude towards them is that those jobs are beneath.  This is over two states...SC and FL.  Is that enough to make a generalization about the country as a whole?  No...probably not.  But it seems to be the same story in two very different states.

Seems odd that in states with large rural areas and a hefty supply of non college educated workers that tradesmen wouldn't be considered a step up in terms of real economic anxiety

Edited by msommer

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28 minutes ago, timschochet said:

@parasaurolophus: it’s not a surprise that we disagree on these issues. I would also point out that your POV is far more popular than mine is. And I would further add that I believe the facts are much more settled, and in my favor, than you give them credit for being. 

But for the sake of argument, let’s assume that every point you made is correct: that these people do take some jobs. That they cost more than they bring in. That they commit more violent crime than we think they do. It still begs the question: why is this such a dominant issue for conservatives? Why was Donald Trump’s promise to build a wall on our southern border considered the most important aspect of his entire campaign? Is @Hawkeye21  correct that this is really about racial identity? I don’t want to think so, but I have trouble believing that it would be such a huge issue if these were Canadians we were discussing. 

For some people it will be racial. For others it will be based on a personal anecdote of something negative. Some will simply want laws enforced. For some it will be a language thing. Countless other reasons involved also. I don't think there is one bucket.  

 

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6 minutes ago, msommer said:

Seems odd that in states with large rural areas and a hefty supply of non college educated workers that tradesmen wouldn't be considered a step up in terms of real economic anxiety

I'll be honest, I was kinda surprised at some of the conversations, especially in SC.  Though, we were right outside of Charlotte, NC so I can see it a bit but not on the scale they were experiencing.  

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On 11/2/2019 at 8:22 PM, parasaurolophus said:

So not open borders, just wink wink open borders. 

don't ask don't tell borders

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26 minutes ago, msommer said:

Seems odd that in states with large rural areas and a hefty supply of non college educated workers that tradesmen wouldn't be considered a step up in terms of real economic anxiety

For many  construction jobs you have to go where the job is. Probably not alot of construction work going on in rural areas.

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11 minutes ago, squistion said:

:lol:

Mexican congressman climbs U.S. border fence to illustrate that Trump's wall is 'totally absurd'. 

- ABC News 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mexican-congressman-climbs-us-border-fence-illustrate-trumps/story?id=45877797

:lmao:Hey God, it's me again, Bart. Please let this become "a thing" with thousands of people posting pics of them climbing the wall.  Protect them from any bodily injuries.

Amen

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7 minutes ago, The General said:

Still the most ridiculous plan Trump had. 

I wonder how many people believe his rhetoric that The Wall is indeed being built (rather just repair of the existing structure).

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7 hours ago, squistion said:

I wonder how many people believe his rhetoric that The Wall is indeed being built (rather just repair of the existing structure).

Repair, new sections, who cares as long as it is moving forward, lol.

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