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Liverpool FC - The Climb to a Superclub (1 Viewer)

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Footballguy
It's time to wax poetic about Liverpool.  As the greatest club in the world, I figured this team deserved it's own thread.  

I'm a soccer newbie.  I haven't seen the ebbs and flows of football teams over time as I've seen in the NFL, college football, basketball, etc.  I can look back at the records, study history and try to figure it out, but without living it, it's tough. 

I said a year ago that the "big four", or the Chelsea/ManU/City/Arsenal stranglehold over the league was ending, and that seems to be true.  There is definitely 6 big teams, and everyone else.  

What I'm trying to determine is where Liverpool and Jurgen Klopp's philosophy is going to fit in over the next 5 years in this new era of 6 elite epl teams, and how Klopp may need to change his ideas.

His philosophy is simple.  He wants to develop young players.  He so far has a "net spend" of about 6.5M dollars.  In contrast, Brendan Rodgers spent a ridiculous amount of money.

This philosophy served him well at Borussia.  He bought Robert Lewandowski, Marco Reus for rather cheap sums.  He developed home-grown players into guys that helped Borussia win the Bundesliga twice in a row and get to the CL finals.

Will that work at Liverpool?

The question is whether that philosophy will work.  It seems to be working so far.  LFC sit 5 points behind Chelsea in 2nd.  

But on the flip side, 6th place is only 5 points behind as well.  

The premier league is all about money and buying players.  Man U wasn't happy and brought in Mourinho.  Did they ask Mourinho to re-shape this squad with a few key additions?  No, they went out and spent a ridiculous sum on Pogba, they bought Mkhitaryan and Bailly, and they are paying an extremely high salary to one of the top 3 strikers in the world, Zlatan. 

Man City have spent somewhere along the lines of 150M bucks on defense recently....and their defense still stinks.

Klopp did spend big bucks on Mane and Wijnaldum, both of whom have been key parts of this team, so it's not as if he won't spend money.  

But Klopp seems determined to build a team of like-minded individuals and try to build a youth system that develops players into the mold that he wants.  There's a great article over the weekend about his approach, and then he proceeded to play what essentially was an U-23 team in the FA cup game.

Overall, I'm excited about his direction.  But my concern is that the fans are going to be overly demanding.  It's quite possible that, despite being a really good team, Liverpool could finish in 5th or 6th place.  That would be seen as a "total disaster" by the Liverpool fans, many of whom are as deluded and unrealistic as you can get.  (a fanbase that reminds me of Alabama pre-Saban)

In that scenario, the fans would demand big money transfers.  Even the more rational fans would want to see big changes. But Jurgen isn't the type to go spend 80M on a superstar.  He wants to spend 15M on a young and talented up-and-coming player and develop him into a superstar.  While that might work at Borussia, where you can USUALLY make CL most years, the epl is a different animal.  As mentioned, there are 6 teams fighting for 4 spots.  Some years you will miss out.

If Liverpool head into next season on the heels of a 5th place finish and only sign 4-5 young and relatively cheap players, while ManU goes out and gets James Rodriguez or some other high-priced guy, the inferiority complex that LFC fans have will come out in spades and the pressure on Jurgen to deviate from his philosophy will grow.

Basically...will Jurgen's philosophy work in this new premier league that is spending huge amounts of money?  Will he have to adjust and go out and spend big money on superstars to compete?  Will he be given time by the fanbase to let guys like Divock Origi to develop into a premier striker, or is he going to be forced to just go buy and already developed stud striker?

I'm super excited, I love Klopp, but I also have my concerns as well.  I'm interested to see how his philosophy will change in this new era.

Thoughts from LFC fans?  Non-LFC fans, be gentle please.

 
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I'll attempt a somewhat serious answer.

I don't think it's particularly new or novel that there's a bit more competition for Champions League places.  Chelsea and Man U have each missed qualification multiple times recently.  Nevertheless, we can put Chelsea, Man U, and City in the category of teams with the resources and philosophy in place that they will invest heavily to get back into the title picture after a bad year.  Any team could fall out of the top four at any time, but those three teams are likely to get back in.

So that leaves the other three teams, where we don't know how they'd respond to the need to invest.  For Arsenal. part of that is a myth as Sanchez and Ozil were expensive transfers.  Liverpool, it seems to me, is in line with Arsenal.  Where there is supposedly a philosophy and not a blanket instinct to just go on the market and get a top player.  And, it could be argued, that Arsenal and Liverpool can't sign those type of difference makers.   My guess is that Liverpool and Arsenal are likely to always be in the hunt.  They might not have Big Three resources, but they have more resources than Spurs.  Unless, Spurs change their approach.  Spurs are a great story.  I love the players and I love the coach.  But I'm continually amazed at the way they manage to pay their players so little.  This isn't a matter of transfer fees, its a matter of salary.  Harry Kane signed an extension to receive significantly less per week than Theo Walcott.  I just don't think Spurs can sustain that.  Even if the transfer fees for a Kane or Alli are enormous, are Spurs going to bring the replacements in on relatively cheap deals?  Because it's the salary creep that I question. 

 
I'll attempt a somewhat serious answer.

I don't think it's particularly new or novel that there's a bit more competition for Champions League places.  Chelsea and Man U have each missed qualification multiple times recently.  Nevertheless, we can put Chelsea, Man U, and City in the category of teams with the resources and philosophy in place that they will invest heavily to get back into the title picture after a bad year.  Any team could fall out of the top four at any time, but those three teams are likely to get back in.

So that leaves the other three teams, where we don't know how they'd respond to the need to invest.  For Arsenal. part of that is a myth as Sanchez and Ozil were expensive transfers.  Liverpool, it seems to me, is in line with Arsenal.  Where there is supposedly a philosophy and not a blanket instinct to just go on the market and get a top player.  And, it could be argued, that Arsenal and Liverpool can't sign those type of difference makers.   My guess is that Liverpool and Arsenal are likely to always be in the hunt.  They might not have Big Three resources, but they have more resources than Spurs.  Unless, Spurs change their approach.  Spurs are a great story.  I love the players and I love the coach.  But I'm continually amazed at the way they manage to pay their players so little.  This isn't a matter of transfer fees, its a matter of salary.  Harry Kane signed an extension to receive significantly less per week than Theo Walcott.  I just don't think Spurs can sustain that.  Even if the transfer fees for a Kane or Alli are enormous, are Spurs going to bring the replacements in on relatively cheap deals?  Because it's the salary creep that I question. 
Thanks RHE, great post.

I agree regarding LIV and ARS being similar.  The new main stand in LIV edges them closer to Arsenal in gameday revenue, but neither team have the ownership that will go out and spend unlimited amounts of dough, as the other three will.  

Downside for Arsenal is that they've been in the top 4 for years, but haven't won it, they have an aging manager who might not be around long-term, they have a (supposedly) uncertain future with the duo of Sanchez and Ozil (Sanchez would be a major loss, I think Ozil is replaceable), and they have Liverpool and Tottenham who are in better situations than they've been in over the past decade.  I saw a post on reddit where an Arsenal fan laughed at someone for suggesting they might not make top 4.   If sports tells you anything, it's that streaks don't last.  If Arsenal were to miss out this year, I'd imagine Wenger might leave, and then Arsenal fans might find that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

I agree on Tottenham that they have to increase wage structure.  If they don't, they won't keep Alli.  I think they will keep Kane though, because I don't think there's much demand for him outside of England, and I don't know that any of the other top teams really want him.  Kane is a weird player to me.  Just when I start to think he's overrated, he goes on a hot streak and makes me look foolish. But aside from being a really good scorer when in position, I'm not overly impressed with other aspects of his game.  Tottenham seems like a great fit and if they pay him what he's worth, I think he'll be there long-term.  I'm not overly familiar with Tott's history, but it seems like they blew the Bale money and I'd imagine they have learned their lesson (Janssen may suggest otherwise).  Like Klopp and LIV, they seem to be going the "home-grown" and "train 'em up" method.  Overall imo, the key for Tottenham is keeping their coach.  I'd also imagine their new stadium would allow them to pay higher salaries, otherwise, what's the point?  

 
and they have Liverpool and Tottenham who are in better situations than they've been in over the past decade
See, this is a quote that I don't really understand.  How can a team that hasn't finished above Arsenal in 21 years be in a better situation than Arsenal has been in the last decade?  I'm the worst Arsenal fan in the world.  They aren't sacred cows to me.  I don't consider them championship contenders or European powers.  But I also don't think the evidence suggests that they're in worse shape than Liverpool or Tottenham.  Will they probably finish outside the top four in the next few seasons.  Probably.  But they're just as likely then to get back in it as Tottenham or Liverpool. 

 
I'll attempt a somewhat serious answer.

I don't think it's particularly new or novel that there's a bit more competition for Champions League places.  Chelsea and Man U have each missed qualification multiple times recently.  Nevertheless, we can put Chelsea, Man U, and City in the category of teams with the resources and philosophy in place that they will invest heavily to get back into the title picture after a bad year.  Any team could fall out of the top four at any time, but those three teams are likely to get back in.

So that leaves the other three teams, where we don't know how they'd respond to the need to invest.  For Arsenal. part of that is a myth as Sanchez and Ozil were expensive transfers.  Liverpool, it seems to me, is in line with Arsenal.  Where there is supposedly a philosophy and not a blanket instinct to just go on the market and get a top player.  And, it could be argued, that Arsenal and Liverpool can't sign those type of difference makers.   My guess is that Liverpool and Arsenal are likely to always be in the hunt.  They might not have Big Three resources, but they have more resources than Spurs.  Unless, Spurs change their approach.  Spurs are a great story.  I love the players and I love the coach.  But I'm continually amazed at the way they manage to pay their players so little.  This isn't a matter of transfer fees, its a matter of salary.  Harry Kane signed an extension to receive significantly less per week than Theo Walcott.  I just don't think Spurs can sustain that.  Even if the transfer fees for a Kane or Alli are enormous, are Spurs going to bring the replacements in on relatively cheap deals?  Because it's the salary creep that I question. 


I think you are slightly mis-reading Spurs' situation.  First, they have the youngest squad in the league for the 2nd consecutive year.  Younger players tend to get paid less in general.  But, Kane has now signed 3 new deals since Pochettino came on board - they will continue to improve deals for players who deserve new deals.  Second, Spurs are consistently one of the lowest net-spend squads in the league.  And, they are finally in a position where you don't look and see gaping holes in the line-up.  So, with the young squad continuing to improve, there is even less need for a big net transfer spend that you see at other squads.  That money can and will be funneled back to the player in the form of new contracts.  Third, almsot everyone, including Pochettino has signed new deals in the last 12-18 months.  Lamella is a notable exception - but the club still have two options on his current deal they can exercise, assuming he can stay healthy.

Another factor is that Spurs currently have a large contingent of English players - only Alli is likely to agitate for a move to the continent, and even then, I am not sure.  Spurs are already unlikely to deal any of those players to another English squad - so their prospects are limited.  (Man United offered more money for Bale, but Levy turned them down flat.)  Spurs are also doing a decent job of building squad players from their academy - which keeps transfer fees and wages down.

Finally, you have the new 61,000 seat stadium on the near horizon now - that galvanizes the troops in the short-term, and then provides the revenue stream in the long-term.  Add, in the TV revenue, and Spurs will have the financial resources to compete near the top.  They will never have Man United revenues, but they have shown they can be competitive with lower revenue.

I don't see Spurs having to sell any of their key players for the next few years - its a close-knit group, many have an identity with Spurs, and they have renegotiated and paid players who were deserving.  No reason to think that will not continue.  

 
Potential targets for January transfer window:

3 targets I've seen mentioned this window.  

Quincy Promes:  Plays in Russia.  Teammate of Wijnaldum in the national team.  Fast winger who can score.  I'm not overly thrilled with him.  I think he would be a good backup, the kind of backup a team challenging for the title needs.  I also don't think the rumors are going to happen.

Christian Pulisic:  Total clickbait.  He may be a bigtime summer target for sure, but there isn't a chance in the world that Borussia weaken their team before the CL.  

Jese Rodriguez:  I really like the idea of him.  His agent came out and said that his long-term future isn't at PSG.  I think he fits the bill of what LIV need.  He was an elite prospect who hasn't yet really made his mark and gotten the consistent playing time he needs.  Again, I don't know if it's realistic that he moves in this summer transfer window, but with PSG signing the kid from Germany, I'd imagine that this is one that could realistically happen, and would be my ideal signing.  

 
See, this is a quote that I don't really understand.  How can a team that hasn't finished above Arsenal in 21 years be in a better situation than Arsenal has been in the last decade?  I'm the worst Arsenal fan in the world.  They aren't sacred cows to me.  I don't consider them championship contenders or European powers.  But I also don't think the evidence suggests that they're in worse shape than Liverpool or Tottenham.  Will they probably finish outside the top four in the next few seasons.  Probably.  But they're just as likely then to get back in it as Tottenham or Liverpool. 
Arsenal are at the end of an era.  Spurs, in particular, seem to have a better foundation from which to build than Arsenal do right now - and that is before the turmoil of a new manager.

 
See, this is a quote that I don't really understand.  How can a team that hasn't finished above Arsenal in 21 years be in a better situation than Arsenal has been in the last decade?  I'm the worst Arsenal fan in the world.  They aren't sacred cows to me.  I don't consider them championship contenders or European powers.  But I also don't think the evidence suggests that they're in worse shape than Liverpool or Tottenham.  Will they probably finish outside the top four in the next few seasons.  Probably.  But they're just as likely then to get back in it as Tottenham or Liverpool. 


I worded it wrong, my apologies.  I meant that Liverpool is in a better situation than Liverpool has been in for the past 10 years.  Same with Tottenham.  I wasn't trying to imply that either was in a better situation than Arsenal.  I just meant that Arsenal's competition is getting better.  

 
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After Virgil, everybody else currently on Saints roster is just ok. And some not that.
And Virgil isn't going to Liverpool.  Every Liverpool fan in the world wants him, but I don't see Klopp spending 50M on a defender.  I'd love to be wrong, but never gonna happen.

 
Potential targets for January transfer window:

3 targets I've seen mentioned this window.  

Quincy Promes:  Plays in Russia.  Teammate of Wijnaldum in the national team.  Fast winger who can score.  I'm not overly thrilled with him.  I think he would be a good backup, the kind of backup a team challenging for the title needs.  I also don't think the rumors are going to happen.

Christian Pulisic:  Total clickbait.  He may be a bigtime summer target for sure, but there isn't a chance in the world that Borussia weaken their team before the CL.  

Jese Rodriguez:  I really like the idea of him.  His agent came out and said that his long-term future isn't at PSG.  I think he fits the bill of what LIV need.  He was an elite prospect who hasn't yet really made his mark and gotten the consistent playing time he needs.  Again, I don't know if it's realistic that he moves in this summer transfer window, but with PSG signing the kid from Germany, I'd imagine that this is one that could realistically happen, and would be my ideal signing.  
Yes - a team that is the leading scoring team in the league needs more attacking options.

:loco:

 
Yes - a team that is the leading scoring team in the league needs more attacking options.

:loco:
I admit it seems superfluous.  I also think there's a major possibility that LIV don't sign anyone. 

Few LIV fans that I know are with me on this, but I don't know if Origi suits Klopp's ideal style.  He seems to score when he plays a full game, but overall the fluidity isn't there.  Especially with European football coming back next year, Klopp is going to strengthen the squad, so that he can have another attacker or two to interchange with Firmino, Mane and Coutinho...those interchangeable guys are imo, the type of players Klopp wants to find and build.  

So it's likely that no one will be signed, but if the right guy is available that can help the team now and next year, you could see a move.  Seems to be a hard thing to do in January though.

 
Arsenal are at the end of an era.  Spurs, in particular, seem to have a better foundation from which to build than Arsenal do right now - and that is before the turmoil of a new manager.
Everyone seems to be assuming that Arsene will leave.  I'm not so sure, but I also don't see Arsenal as a team in much transition in terms of personnel.  They looked more toward the "end of an era" in RVPs last season, for instance.  Or when they lost Cesc.  They're already starting one teenager from the academy.  The Jeff is in a similar position to Winks in being on the fringe of the first team where he might make it or might not. 

Just seems to me that people assume that Spurs won't lose players (or Poch for that matter) and that Arsenal will slip.  Or that Spurs are somehow already clearly better than Arsenal.  They're not.  They're competitive with Arsenal, but Spurs have to make another step to be clearly better than Arsenal and it's a step they haven't shown they've been able to make yet. 

 
I hope they don't spend much. 

Guys still yet to get a long run in the team-

Matip- injured off and on. Stud when available.

Grujic- :shrug:  haven't followed news much and I'm pretty sure he was one for the future, but his absence is still :woooosh: 

Gomez- is back :EXCITE:

Woodburn- Wonder if he get's any bench time with Mane gone and Firmino struggling to play up top when he's been there. 

Maybe one striker, likely a prospect, because only having Origi and Sturridge up top is not deep enough imo

 
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Everyone seems to be assuming that Arsene will leave.  I'm not so sure, but I also don't see Arsenal as a team in much transition in terms of personnel.  They looked more toward the "end of an era" in RVPs last season, for instance.  Or when they lost Cesc.  They're already starting one teenager from the academy.  The Jeff is in a similar position to Winks in being on the fringe of the first team where he might make it or might not. 

Just seems to me that people assume that Spurs won't lose players (or Poch for that matter) and that Arsenal will slip.  Or that Spurs are somehow already clearly better than Arsenal.  They're not.  They're competitive with Arsenal, but Spurs have to make another step to be clearly better than Arsenal and it's a step they haven't shown they've been able to make yet. 
Spurs are better than Arsenal right now.

It is known.

Also, when Arsene leaves, Sanchez and Ozil will be right behind (or ahead...)  They can and will re-build, but new manager, new philosophies will take time... 

 

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