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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (10 Viewers)

Don't Noonan said:
No, but nothing even close to collusion has shown up yet.  Well, perhaps the compromised Mueller team but that is another story.
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Patience, Grasshopper.  It took 18 months for the Watergate investigation to reach someone even close to Flynn's level, and they had the head start of actually having conspirators arrested at the scene to kick off the investigation.

 
Rove! said:
And yet still massively outgunned by the forces arrayed against him
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Yeah yaknow, Trumpites are going to have to come up with something if Flynn does indeed inculpate others further up what is already a pretty small food chain. Claims about the devilish dossier and unfair unmasking won't matter once Flynn flips.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Yeah yaknow, Trumpites are going to have to come up with something if Flynn does indeed inculpate others further up what is already a pretty small food chain. Claims about the devilish dossier and unfair unmasking won't matter once Flynn flips.
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They really don't seem to understand this.....or, they do and they just don't care. It appears to me that they love seeing how upset most americans are and take great glee in it. I could surely be wrong but, that's how it appears to me.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Yeah yaknow, Trumpites are going to have to come up with something if Flynn does indeed inculpate others further up what is already a pretty small food chain. Claims about the devilish dossier and unfair unmasking won't matter once  we know what Flynn said when he flipped
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apalmer said:
Patience, Grasshopper.  It took 18 months for the Watergate investigation to reach someone even close to Flynn's level, and they had the head start of actually having conspirators arrested at the scene to kick off the investigation.
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Agreed.  However most of the folks posting in here think he is already proven guilty of collusion and should be impeached. 

 
Don't Noonan said:
Agreed.  However most of the folks posting in here think he is already proven guilty of collusion and should be impeached. 
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That is abjectly false. And it's the kind of misinformation by hyperbole that makes a conversation feel disingenuous so why bother engaging (and eventually assume or even call out a post as trolling). 

A more accurate depiction is most folks posting already think Trump is likely guilty of something, though nothing regarding him specifically has been proven.... that we will learn at the conclusion if Muellers investigation either way.  He may not be personally culpable, he may be but not in a manner that rises to a legal threshold for a crime / impeachment or could be guilty in reality, but without enough evidence to prove that. And most posters have said whichever the result of the investigation, we are ready to accept the findings. So, what you say is at best false, at worst just a flat lie if you already really know this (since it's been stated literally daily, for months).

As to Trumps inner circle, associates and administration, Flynn HAS proven guilty of SOMEthing by virtue of his plea, and Manafort has not yet been proven guilty but it's a reasonable if not most likely explanation with what we know, but we need to see the facts of the case before being positive. That said, one would have to be foolishly naive to think there is not some significant level of guilt among some very high ups when you look at these two and the behaviors of others, Jr.s emails, twitter all but admissions etc. Regardless, I dont see anyone, certainly not 'most' who say Trump has been 'proven' guilty. 

This is what a little context, nuance and truthfulness can do to more accurately depict a genuine picture of reality ... and see how such an honest approach can foster legit discussion with a variety of legitimate points of view, theories and conclusions?

Now that it's been explained, please at least try to not be disingenuous, lest we have no choice but to conclude something less than excellent about your motives, purpose agenda and behavior. We'll give you the benefit of the doubt until now, but after this, suggesting what you did in your post should and will be called out as a flat lie. We can then discuss what motivations one would have, to lie, but let's hope the completely false and disingenuous hyperbole ie over. 

 
Koya said:
That is abjectly false. And it's the kind of misinformation by hyperbole that makes a conversation feel disingenuous so why bother engaging (and eventually assume or even call out a post as trolling). 

A more accurate depiction is most folks posting already think Trump is likely guilty of something, though nothing regarding him specifically has been proven.... that we will learn at the conclusion if Muellers investigation either way.  He may not be personally culpable, he may be but not in a manner that rises to a legal threshold for a crime / impeachment or could be guilty in reality, but without enough evidence to prove that. And most posters have said whichever the result of the investigation, we are ready to accept the findings. So, what you say is at best false, at worst just a flat lie if you already really know this (since it's been stated literally daily, for months).

As to Trumps inner circle, associates and administration, Flynn HAS proven guilty of SOMEthing by virtue of his plea, and Manafort has not yet been proven guilty but it's a reasonable if not most likely explanation with what we know, but we need to see the facts of the case before being positive. That said, one would have to be foolishly naive to think there is not some significant level of guilt among some very high ups when you look at these two and the behaviors of others, Jr.s emails, twitter all but admissions etc. Regardless, I dont see anyone, certainly not 'most' who say Trump has been 'proven' guilty. 

This is what a little context, nuance and truthfulness can do to more accurately depict a genuine picture of reality ... and see how such an honest approach can foster legit discussion with a variety of legitimate points of view, theories and conclusions?

Now that it's been explained, please at least try to not be disingenuous, lest we have no choice but to conclude something less than excellent about your motives, purpose agenda and behavior. We'll give you the benefit of the doubt until now, but after this, suggesting what you did in your post should and will be called out as a flat lie. We can then discuss what motivations one would have, to lie, but let's hope the completely false and disingenuous hyperbole ie over. 
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Nope, agree to disagree.  If we started a poll as to who believes Trump is guilty of collusion do you honestly believe it would be under 50%?

 
Don't Noonan said:
Nope, agree to disagree.  If we started a poll as to who believes Trump is guilty of collusion do you honestly believe it would be under 50%?
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Honestly, I'm trying to be kind here, because you are again manipulating words to misrepresent not only the facts, but what YOU YOURSELF said.

YOUR words: However most of the folks posting in here think he is already proven guilty of collusion and should be impeached.

You didnt say most people thought he was guilty. You said most people thought is is already PROVEN guilty.  This is EXACTLY my point about purposefully misleading, misrepresenting, being disingenuous, and after it all adds up, appearing to be troll-like behavior.

Please, stop misrepresenting or at least accept if you are called out as unkind - but it would be the case true - things.

 
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Don't Noonan said:
Agreed.  However most of the folks posting in here think he is already proven guilty of collusion and should be impeached. 
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he should be impeached because he cant do the job, he's a national embarrassment  and I'm pretty sure he has early on-set Alzheimer's, which is terrible...believe me. Collusion with Russia would hopefully make Congress act.

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
he should be impeached because he cant do the job, he's a national embarrassment  and I'm pretty sure he has early on-set Alzheimer's, which is terrible...believe me. Collusion with Russia would hopefully make Congress act.
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Oh it has. Especially those like Nunes and possibly all the way up to Ryan who have acted (and in some cases all but admitted) in a manner to suggest there's a likelihood that they are actually involved IN the collision and/or efforts to cover it up.

 
Don't Noonan said:
Nope, agree to disagree.  If we started a poll as to who believes Trump is guilty of collusion do you honestly believe it would be under 50%?
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No. But that’s not what you said. 

You said most in here think he’s proven guilty. No one thinks that. 

Many of us think he’s likely guilty. Given a yes or no question I would guess most would select ‘yes’. 

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
What happens to existing indictments if Trump manages to corrupt his way to a compliant FBI?  Presumably they don't just disappear?
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At some point, regular people have to become heros of democracy.  It is patriotic to be a whistleblower if indeed there is evidence and especially proof of malfeasance and even more so if such crimes touch treasonous activity.  Mueller has some absolute by the book and best of class team, but one that also likely understands their historic responsibility and duty to country. 

If the system is so broken as to seek to protect itself by literally being above the law, leaks, whistleblowing and other efforts to bring to light what truths may exist (with the documented evidence/proof), then there is no longer honor in upholding what is no longer a just and fair system of law.  

 
Bucky86 said:
He has to fire Rosenstein to fire Mueller, right?
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>>In Trump’s case, he would have to ask Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein to fire Mueller since Attorney General Jeff Sessions recused himself from any Trump-Russia investigation in March.<<

- Yep. After that it's Rachel Brand.

 
Bucky86 said:
He has to fire Rosenstein to fire Mueller, right?
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Right, unless Rosenstein agrees to fire him at Trump’s request (which is highly unlikely). Then Donnie has to go down the line and keep on handing out pink slips until he finds someone to pull the trigger. The problem for him would be that the lower down you go in the DOJ, the more you get into career public servants who are less partisan, i.e. not as willing to cooperate with such a request. Deep state and all that sort of thing.

Also - another possibility would be for Sessions to un-recuse himself and fire Mueller directly, which is something that the FOX crowd has been calling for since, like, July. Would not be great for the optics but keeps Donald’s fingerprints off of it at least.

 
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Don't Noonan said:
Nope, agree to disagree.  If we started a poll as to who believes Trump is guilty of collusion do you honestly believe it would be under 50%?
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Who believes it vs saying it’s already proven are two different things.

Edit...I see others have take care of this.  

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
>>In Trump’s case, he would have to ask Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein to fire Mueller since Attorney General Jeff Sessions recused himself from any Trump-Russia investigation in March.<<

- Yep. After that it's Rachel Brand.
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I listened to an interview of her recently.  She seems like she has some integrity.  No chance she fires Mueller.  I have a strong feeling very few people in the DOJ would.  Mueller is a pretty respected guy by nearly everyone who isn't one of these Trump nihilist sycophants.

 
A lot of ridiculousness in this thread.  Hopefully, when this is over, we can put an end to the whole independent prosecutor nonsense once and for all.

 
Soonerman said:
A lot of ridiculousness in this thread.  Hopefully, when this is over, we can put an end to the whole independent prosecutor nonsense once and for all.
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Yep.  There's nothing in the Constitution about these independent prosecutors, so why have them?

 
The twist: The sources say that transition officials assumed that Mueller would come calling, and had sifted through the emails and separated the ones they considered privileged. But the sources said that was for naught, since Mueller has the complete cache from the dozen accounts.
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I would have paid hard-earned, universally-negotiable, American cash dollars to have been in the room when the penny dropped on these weasels that Mueller already had all the e-mails, including the ones they intended to hide.

 
Dedfin said:
Yep.  There's nothing in the Constitution about these independent prosecutors, so why have them?
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Exactly.  Not to mention the fact that they almost inevitably morph into an unlimited investigation of the target, mostly leading to charges very tangential to the original scope.

Just ask Bill Clinton and Scooter Libby.

 
timschochet said:
Trump will not fire Mueller. Not now or ever. 
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I've just read a couple articles speculating that he will fire Mueller when Congress is on break (next week?).

we are speculating but I disagree with you. I'm convinced he will attempt to fire him. I think it's inevitable. Forget any impeachment until there is evidence of substantial criminal wrongdoing. Republicans are almost immune to consequence at this point. They will ignore firing Mueller and will use the "biased" narrative. This will play with their base and they will cash in on their opportunity to push their agenda. 

One of the Repubs (forget who, Corker I think?) was just quoted as saying this was a (paraphrasing) "once in a lifetime opportunity", when asked why he changed his stance on tax reform. This-IMO-encapsulates Republican thinking at this moment in time. Accomplish what they can while they can and deal with consequences later. Trump is their rubber stamp and they're going all in.

 
Koya said:
Oh it has. Especially those like Nunes and possibly all the way up to Ryan who have acted (and in some cases all but admitted) in a manner to suggest there's a likelihood that they are actually involved IN the collision and/or efforts to cover it up.
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:lmao:

Yeah and 9/11 was an inside job

 
I will say, Trump’s loyal base would be 100% ok with him firing Mueller.  But if he has any desire to eventually win a re-election or see his approval rating rise, he has to get through the Mueller investigation unscathed.

 
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