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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (13 Viewers)

Its interesting to think how Barr will be remembered in history. Between this and Iran-Contra, I reckon his reputation will be one of coverup and obfuscation guy for corrupt governments. The worst kind of AG. One that would normally be despised by ren and Glenn Greenwald.

But ... politics makes strange bedfellows. We shall see.

 
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Correct me if I’m wrong but it sounded like Barr said Trump and his campaign unknowingly - stupidly - participated in a Russian active measures operation. Maybe you feel good about that, I have no idea why you would though.
Despite warnings from our intelligence community that this was going on.  And after it happened, he denied any involvement with Russians, and dismissed the intelligence community's views that it happened, and he attacked the intelligence community as a whole.

It's sooo much more than just being an idiot.

 
His newest one is good though
I haven’t checked yet but his team does have good graphics if you get past the insipidity and dangerous themes. 

Pretty much everything he does is a brand or slogan for selling and I do agree he’s good at that. What that means as a mold for future presidencies is a different subject. We’ve had a pretty bad flaw in our system exploited.

 
Its interesting to think how Barr will be remembered in history. Between this and Iran-Contra, I reckon his reputation will be one of coverup and obfuscation guy for corrupt governments. The worst kind of AG. One that would normally be despised by ren and Glenn Greenwald.

But ... politics makes strange bedfellows. We shall see.
He made around $1.2 million at Kirkland last year IIRC. It’s been worth it to him.

 
Its interesting to think how Barr will go down in history. Between this and Iran-Contra, I reckon his reputation will be one of coverup and obfuscation guy for corrupt governments. The worst kind of AG. One that would normally be despised by ren and Glenn Greenwald.

But ... politics makes strange bedfellows. We shall see.
So he will be Ollie North and G Gordon Liddy. He turned out fine for at least half of people

 
It's quite astonishing to me that people are celebrating that their guy was essentially a useful idiot to Putin.  In today's world, that's scarier than knowingly being a part of it.  I see why Putin had to use him this way as he'd just blab everything in one of his stump speeches, so I understand the approach.  What is lost on me is why people think this is acceptable.

 
Despite warnings from our intelligence community that this was going on.  And after it happened, he denied any involvement with Russians, and dismissed the intelligence community's views that it happened, and he attacked the intelligence community as a whole.

It's sooo much more than just being an idiot.
After hearing Barr today I’m thinking the conspiracy/coordination determination was based on the same home cooked evaluation of intent as the obstruction charge. I was really shocked by that. It goes to Congress and the people now.

 
Its interesting to think how Barr will be remembered in history. Between this and Iran-Contra, I reckon his reputation will be one of coverup and obfuscation guy for corrupt governments. The worst kind of AG. One that would normally be despised by ren and Glenn Greenwald.

But ... politics makes strange bedfellows. We shall see.
Well he will have an open invitation to be FOX commentator in the future and will be adored by all MAGA hat wearing fans

 
Its interesting to think how Barr will be remembered in history. Between this and Iran-Contra, I reckon his reputation will be one of coverup and obfuscation guy for corrupt governments. The worst kind of AG. One that would normally be despised by ren and Glenn Greenwald.

But ... politics makes strange bedfellows. We shall see.
I don't respect Barr. But I do respect Mueller. And I think if Barr is materially misrepresenting Mueller's findings he will speak up about it. If Mueller remains silent, then I have to assume Barr is being truthful. Not because he is a truth teller by nature, but because for Mueller to remain silent would be a dereliction of duty.

 
After hearing Barr today I’m thinking the conspiracy/coordination determination was based on the same home cooked evaluation of intent as the obstruction charge. I was really shocked by that. It goes to Congress and the people now.
I think this is dangerous ground. The House has to decide for themselves but politically I think it's untenable to proceed no matter what is in the report because there isn't clarity from Mueller (assuming that is true). Barr is spinning for the WH. I don't want to see Dems spin the other way. 

 
Not a waste if you’re a Democrat, this ridiculous investigation won you back the house in 2018.  I see some Democrats already lashing out at Mueller when they should be greatful.  It probably took one week to not find any collusion yet he drags it out for 2 years.  
Mueller reported 10 incidents involving issues of obstruction. Do you think that may have slowed it down?

 
With regards to obstruction, Barr said in his presser that he, Rosenstein, and some other lawyers disagreed with legal theories presented by Mueller with connecting actions to obstruction (my paraphrasing here).  Were these legal theories contained in the Mueller memos and will we be made privy to them?

 
The Mueller Report is Just the Beginning

Every great film needs a climactic moment, the thinking goes, so American media is positioning the release of the “Mueller Report”—essentially just a summary of a case file believed to be hundreds of thousands, or even millions of pages long—to be the single moment that either saves or damns the Trump presidency. News-watchers shouldn’t be fooled, however: the release of Mueller’s summary of his nearly two years of investigative work, while an important milestone in the most complex and far-ranging federal criminal investigation of our lives, is merely a marker in time little different from many such markers that we’ve already seen and will see as the Trump-Russia story continues to unfold. If it’s an ending, it’s an ending of one of this historically harrowing story’s earliest chapters—that’s all.

When American media was, en masse, furiously predicting the exact date of the Mueller Report’s release—getting its prediction wrong on at least eight occasions dating back to the fall of 2017—it told its readers and viewers that Mueller was “farming out” a high percentage of his investigative leads to other jurisdictions. In 2017 and 2018, media took that fact merely as a sign that Mueller was almost done with his work, and not, as we must see it in 2019, as a sign that Mueller was, well, farming out a high percentage of his investigative leads to other jurisdictions. In other words, what we read on Thursday, April 18—when a heavily redacted version of the Mueller Report will be released to Congress and the public—will be nothing more than (a) a brutally edited version, of (b) a summary, of (c) a massive case file that has itself (d) been largely sent elsewhere for investigation by other federal prosecutors. Anyone who thinks the Trump-Russia investigation can be in any sense summarized by a two-topic 300- or 400-page report that is missing a quarter of its pages has not been following the Trump-Russia story from the start.

I’ve written two books on Trump-Russia collusion—Proof of Collusion, released at the end of 2018, and Proof of Conspiracy, forthcoming in August—and even in avoiding much discussion of Trump’s obstruction and witness tampering in these books (as these actions were already known by most, by virtue of having occurred publicly) my research swelled to nearly 1,000 pages. Because the books were written in a “government-report” style—with most sentences containing a discrete block of evidence and footnoted to one or more major-media citations—those 1,000 pages were the most condensed version of the Trump-Russia story I could tell. So the notion that Mueller was going to tell in full the tale of Trump-Russia collusion in the half of a heavily redacted 300- or 400-page summary not focused on obstruction of justice was always fanciful.

Here, then, is the reality: Mueller’s April 18 summary serves the primary purpose of passing on to the United States Congress the full archive of evidence on Trump’s fifty to a hundred acts of obstruction of justice while president, with that archive useful to Congress in determining whether impeachment proceedings are warranted. As most attorneys will tell you that just the public evidence of Trump’s obstruction of justice is sufficient to support conviction for that offense, and as obstruction of justice is an impeachable offense per the Republican Party of the Clinton era, the answer to the question of whether Mueller’s archive of evidence on obstruction is sufficient to support impeachment is an obvious “yes.”

On the matter of collusion, Attorney General Barr has represented that Mueller only investigated a narrow legal issue within the broader question of whether the President of the United States committed acts of pre-election, transition-period, or post-inauguration collusion (acts arising to the level of a criminal offense and involving Russians, Saudis, Emiratis, Israelis, Egyptians, Qataris, or Bahrainis): whether Trump executed an implicit or explicit agreement with the Internet Research Agency (IRA) or Russian military intelligence (GRU) prior to these two entities’ massive election-season propaganda and hacking campaigns, respectively. No one in media or anywhere else has ever accused Trump of doing this, so we’ve always assumed the answer to the question Mueller investigated would be “no.” Frankly, that Mueller will need a hundred or two hundred pages to answer a question on which we previously thought there was no evidence at all tells us that, even if conspiracy couldn’t be established beyond a reasonable doubt—as AG Barr has told us—there must be more evidence in support of the notion than we’d imagined.

What Trump has long stood accused of, however, are crimes quite different from conspiracy before-the-fact with the IRA and GRU: specifically, the Trump-Russia timeline reveals that the president is susceptible to criminal liability for bribery, money laundering, illegal solicitation of foreign campaign donations, aiding and abetting computer crimes, RICO offenses, and involvement in any of several crimes of fraud, including wire fraud, bank fraud, identity fraud, or the defrauding of the United States. All these offenses could be construed as “collusive” if they were committed, as the facts now in evidence suggest some of them may have been, in order to jointly benefit the Trumps (and their allies) and foreign nationals from any of the countries listed above.

The offenses I’ve just enumerated are now being investigated—often using euphemistic language, such as being described as “an investigation into the Trump inauguration”—by some combination of the following entities: the Southern District of New York; the Eastern District of New York; the Eastern District of Virginia; the U.S. Attorney’s Office for D.C.; the Central District of California; the offices of the Attorneys General for New York, Maryland, New Jersey, and the District of Columbia; the FBI; the CIA; the District Attorney for New York City; various House committees, including Ways and Means, Financial Services, Judiciary, Oversight, and Intelligence; the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence; the Special Counsel’s Office (which still has a grand jury seated that it says continues to work “robustly,” and whose former staffers have been sent elsewhere to prosecute cases like the one against Roger Stone set for trial this fall); and at least one unnamed jurisdiction in which Trump’s former deputy campaign manager, Rick Gates, will be testifying.

We also know that evidence Mueller compiled is being used in several completed investigations about to go to trial, including the case against Bijan Kian that Trump’s former national security advisor, Michael Flynn, will be testifying in this summer. Any or all of these investigations could lead to new indictments, and/or new revelations—perhaps through the emergence of new cooperating witnesses—that in time could lead to further new investigations and indictments. And of course the fact that the Southern District of New York has already named Trump an unindicted co-conspirator in felony campaign crimes—meaning that he would be under indictment and on bail or in pre-trial detention this very moment were he not the president—cannot be forgotten.

All of the crimes being investigated by the entities above are potentially impeachable offenses, with at least one—bribery—being specifically enumerated in the United States Constitution as an impeachable offense. Virtually all of the offenses, including the felony campaign crimes we already know Trump has been accused of by federal prosecutors, are more serious than the offenses the Republicans impeached President Bill Clinton for not long ago.

In short, the Mueller Report will be interesting for what it tells us about the evidence Congress will be considering in determining whether to impeach Donald J. Trump for obstruction of justice. It will be interesting for what it tells us about the evidence of a before-the-fact Trump-IRA or Trump-GRU conspiracy that heretofore we had no idea even arguably existed. And it will be interesting for what it doesn’t say: the unnecessary grand jury redactions (which AG Barr could have avoided with simple, pro forma motions to several federal courts); the counterintelligence information that tells us whether the president is compromised by a foreign power but which we will not be allowed to see or even guess at; the “reputation” evidence that Barr has elided to avoid embarrassing people whose actions and observations may well have told us much about whether Trump is fit to be president or is, instead, a corrupt politician no different from those he derided in running for office in 2016; and the evidence of other ongoing federal investigations—a category of information that, as I’ve indicated here, is so vast that it could swallow the utility of the Mueller Report altogether.

If Americans keep all of the foregoing in mind in reading the Mueller Report, and in listening to coverage of the Mueller Report online and on television and in print, we will maintain a reasonable sense of how significant the Report actually is in the grand scheme of the Trump-Russia story. If we don’t, we’ll be fooled into thinking a movie still in its first act has actually reached a conclusion.

Seth Abramson is Assistant Professor of Communication Arts & Sciences at the University of New Hampshire and author of Proof Of Collusion (Simon & Schuster, 2018.) On Twitter @SethAbramson
 
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It's quite astonishing to me that people are celebrating that their guy was essentially a useful idiot to Putin.  In today's world, that's scarier than knowingly being a part of it.  I see why Putin had to use him this way as he'd just blab everything in one of his stump speeches, so I understand the approach.  What is lost on me is why people think this is acceptable.
Link?

 
:hifive:

Now that this is all behind us, I am hoping our country can unify with our President as he roots out all that pushed this conspiracy and participated in a de facto failed coup.  

Let’s hope he brings them to swift justice.  
Just because an investigation fails to find bring charges on one of the several people being investigated, it does not mean there was a conspiracy. 

 
FWIW, even if this completely exonerated the president of any wrongdoing, criminal or not, it would not be a waste of time and money.
I agree, and if Trump supporters really believed that Trump did nothing wrong, they should be cheering the investigation for clearing the president's good name.  

 
Barr said that nobody WILLINGLY colluded with Russia.  So either everyone was duped (which makes them at least naive to be kind) or you don't believe the Russian had anything to do with the election and are still using the "400 pound kid from Jersey in his moms basement" theory

 
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Not a waste if you’re a Democrat, this ridiculous investigation won you back the house in 2018.  I see some Democrats already lashing out at Mueller when they should be greatful.  It probably took one week to not find any collusion yet he drags it out for 2 years.  
I am not sure it really mattered much for the election. Trump is absolutely despised and it's way beyond the Russia thing. 

 
Barr said that nobody WILLINGLY colluded with Russia.  So either everyone was duped (which makes them at least naive to be kind) or you don't believe the Russian had anything to do with the election and are still using the "400 pound kid from Jersey in his moms basement" theory
Maybe you missed my bold?  I was looking for a link to anyone celebrating that Trump was a useful idiot to Putin.

 
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Putin probably enjoyed it.
I was assuming he was referring to people in this thread.  You can go to twitter and find an opinion and position on just about anything, there is nothing "astonishing" about that.

ETA: and reading the tea leaves to the motives  of the Russians it appears their primary objective is to sew political discord.  They would probably be happier if Trump was guilty of something and people kept pushing for the removal  of a sitting president.

 
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Maybe you missed my bold?  I was looking for a link to anyone celebrating that Trump was a useful idiot to Putin.
The issue I find most glaring is our intelligence community has said Russia interfered with the election, has tried to hack every State's voting mechanisms and is continuing to do so. Trump has repeatedly denied or downplayed this and said he takes Putin's word on it. I don't know how to excuse this way as anything other than cooperation with Russia or being a useful idiot for Russia due to his own insecurity. My take has generally been that I don't think Trump was openly colluding but his own vanity over the election win has blinded him from admitting the truth and thus prevented him from taking measures to possibly stop future election interference. He also has a poorly organized team that is just an open invitation for crooks and other nefarious individuals. I am very curious to hear what your take on the issue?

 
Mueller report identified some issues with both Trump and Obama administrations. Any future administrations should probably assume any communications (spoken, tweeted, texted, emails, etc) are being monitored and could be released to the public. May want to bring out the Cone of Silence.

 
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1. Why would a special counsel probe have been set up specifically for Manafort?

2. Do you believe the Trump DOJ would have gone after Manafort?
1.  It obviously would not have.

2.  I'd hope (and believe) the DOJ would act independently and gone after anyone for which they had reason to do so.  The results of this investigation don't change that.

 
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The issue I find most glaring is our intelligence community has said Russia interfered with the election, has tried to hack every State's voting mechanisms and is continuing to do so. Trump has repeatedly denied or downplayed this and said he takes Putin's word on it. I don't know how to excuse this way as anything other than cooperation with Russia or being a useful idiot for Russia due to his own insecurity. My take has generally been that I don't think Trump was openly colluding but his own vanity over the election win has blinded him from admitting the truth and thus prevented him from taking measures to possibly stop future election interference. He also has a poorly organized team that is just an open invitation for crooks and other nefarious individuals. I am very curious to hear what your take on the issue?
Why do you want my take?  I'm just asking Commish to back up his claim that people are celebrating the position of Trump being so stupid he unwilling helped Putin. 

My take is that I've been saying all along Trump isn't smart enough to collude with the Russians.  Big nothingberger.

 
First thought: I understand why Barr lifted that bit about "not conspiring or coordinating" out of context.  The 1.5 sentences that precede it are not a great look for Team Trump.

"The investigation identified numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump campaign."  Then goes on to say that while both parties grasped that the effort were for their mutual benefit ... and then the language about "not conspiring or coordinating."

 
The issue I find most glaring is our intelligence community has said Russia interfered with the election, has tried to hack every State's voting mechanisms and is continuing to do so. Trump has repeatedly denied or downplayed this and said he takes Putin's word on it. I don't know how to excuse this way as anything other than cooperation with Russia or being a useful idiot for Russia due to his own insecurity. My take has generally been that I don't think Trump was openly colluding but his own vanity over the election win has blinded him from admitting the truth and thus prevented him from taking measures to possibly stop future election interference. He also has a poorly organized team that is just an open invitation for crooks and other nefarious individuals. I am very curious to hear what your take on the issue?
FWIW - Obama admin also was very aware of Russia trying to affect our political process.

 
I think this is the best possible result for the Democrats: not enough evidence to impeach Trump (which would fail and make him a victim) but enough to make him look terrible. Pelosi couldn’t have hoped for anything better.
Yep - a 50M dollar oppo report.  Funded by the taxpayers and with the weight of the entire DOJ behind it, no less.  

We should be so proud.

 
Nothing new about contacts between the campaign and the Russians as far as I can tell, other than some details showing that Manafort did exactly what most of us assumed he did with Kliminik- he shared the Trump campaign's strategy about targeting Midwest voters and gave him polling data to that end.

 
So no link then?   It's not a long thread since Barr spoke this morning causing all these people to celebrate.  You misspelled wee.
I was referring to the thousands of pages in the main thread. The Russian Dupe thing was definitely covered there I'm sure. Not sure if anyone was happy about that, that would be weird.

Question stands though - why did Russia want Trump to win so badly?

 

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