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The Russia Investigation: Mueller - "Over the course of my career, I've seen a number of challenges to our democracy.The Russian govt's effort to interfere in our election is among the most serious."

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, adonis said:

And I know people in person who hold the view that CNN and MSNBC are fake news sources, as hard as it is for me to understand how someone can legitimately hold this view without being a troll or spreading propaganda.  As hard as it is for me to compare the credibility of CNN to Fox News and not see Fox News come out the worse every time, but have these folks give Fox a pass on being factual while blasting CNN...again, plenty of folks I know in real life are as delusional as Noonan ;).  (This is supposed to be tongue-in-cheek.  Dont' think Noonan is anything but a garden variety holder of this opinion)

Well to be fair not all stories from CNN and MSNBC are fake but them constantly spreading the fake Russian collusion story obviously sculpted a lot of delusional posters in here.  I can't blame CNN and MSNBC because they were just pushing it for ratings.  Although I did hear Maddow is really struggling for viewers now that the Russia story is a proven hoax.

Edited by Don't Noonan

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59 minutes ago, James Daulton said:

What about what I noted as my issues with him is incorrect?  

I was referring to your continued effort to classify millions of people as exactly the same, and as part of a cult, something that the mods have asked posters not to do.  And insinuating that it hits close to home for me.  I don't support Trump, the only thing worse than Trump is when liberals act even crazier.

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3 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

Although I did here Maddow is really struggling for viewers now that the Russia story is a proven hoax.

I hear that Fox News is also really struggling now that the Jussie Smollett story is a proven hoax.

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32 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:
38 minutes ago, whoknew said:

Great. We agree.

I do believe that Barr is not lying in what he wrote. But he wrote very carefully - as did Mueller (in the little bit we know). What he told us was:

  • Mueller does not believe there is enough evidence to bring a conspiracy charge; 
  • Mueller laid out both sides for an obstruction charge, but Barr and RR do not think the President committed obstruction. He did not explain why Barr and RR think that.

As a result, I'd sure like to see the Mueller report to see what evidence Mueller did find to #1 and whether I disagree with Barr and RR on #2. And on what Barr and RR make their determination (the facts or the law?). 

Fair enough.  For the Dems to take back the white house though I believe they should drop this nonsense and focus on the issues.

Agreed. 

Though the full report is important for everyone to see.  The collusion and obstruction angle are non-starters, but it remains to be seen what else the report may or may not hold. 

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27 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Four questions for everyone...

1) - Do you believe there are liberals who are good people and intelligent?

2) - Do you believe there are conservatives who are good people and intelligent?

3) - Do you believe there are liberals who are bad people and lack intelligence?

4) - Do you believe there are conservatives who are bad people and lack intelligence?

If your answers are anything but Yes to all four, then I truly feel sorry for your ignorance. There are good and bad people from all walks of life. Stop painting with such broad brushes.

No, clearly those that disagree are trolls. 

 

In all seriousness, your post is absolutely correct and also exactly what’s wrong in our society today. 

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17 hours ago, Sabertooth said:

What was wrong?  I don’t think we can say definitely until December 2020.  Trump may have won a round, but I don’t see him winning the fight and getting re elected.  

I agree.  His chances of winning are 10-20%.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Koya said:

It is one thing to 'name call' other posters. Another altogether to accurately describe their behavior to forward important aspects of the conversation, the implication of certain behaviors, thought processes, and subsequent policies and actions.

As you note, the inability to speak honestly, sincerely, and in an earnest manner, is a form of thought censorship that only reinforces the negative repercussions of a clear intentional strategy of a President, he GOP, and their supporters to one one hand muddy the truth, eliminate legitimate, fact based debate, and literally have us 'ignore' the facts, the truth, that which we see, that which we hear.

The mod's choice to curtail a check on lies, trolling, purposeful obfuscation, while allowing trolling, lies, and obfuscation to continue feeds right into the strategy of those who wish to eliminate objective truth to eliminate legitimate dissent and destroy thoughtful and constructive discourse.

This is all the more true when someone has indeed acted, for years now, as a true propagandist (to the point that I've seriously at times considered is it our responsibility to point out a poster to some authorities as someone that might literally be infiltrating our public discourse / social media in a manner that can only be described as curiously aligned with foreign entities - on a full range of issues, not just Russian meddling in our elections - entities/nations that have been PROVEN to have undertaken concerted campaigns to do just that across any number of platforms. Do we ignore these realities and possibilities?

Considering the orchestrated campaigns on other platforms, should we just naively assume there's not chance that such forces are looking to influence this community in a less than honest and earnest manner, and for the benefit of foreign entities that are still conducting ongoing efforts to damage our democracy? 

So much for being resilient to protect our democracies and freedoms.

As such, I took the @FBG Moderator 's suggestion. Other than my posts in dire hope to change management's mind as to allow legit discourse (including harsh truths and realities), I can no longer in good conscience participate in muted discussions whereby the truth is shackled while those who wish to blur the truth for their agenda's purpose are allowed to continue doing just that.

There he is! 

Dude it's a internet forum that not a whole lot of people participate it.  It's purely entertainment.  If you think posting anything here is changing the world one way or the other, let alone a target for censorship or Russian influence, you should get out more.

Don't know what to say about turning posters over to authorities, that's just :tinfoilhat:.

Edited by tonydead
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If we want to settle this once and for all it seems like we should institute a formal "cornhole with an accused Russian troll" policy here.  If there are any accused Russian trolls that claim to live in the D.C. metropolitan area, I will gladly buy you a beer and report back to the board that you're a regular good old American in an effort to clear your name.  I'd imagine some other board regulars would be willing to do the same in other parts of the country.

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I saw an interview of Putin answering questions from reporters, and he pointed at a guy who asked the same question as the woman before him.  Putin said, "Honda".  I think it's fair to say not only have they infiltrated the ffa, but we are influencing their culture.

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25 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

Well to be fair not all stories from CNN and MSNBC are fake but them constantly spreading the fake Russian collusion story obviously sculpted a lot of delusional posters in here.  I can't blame CNN and MSNBC because they were just pushing it for ratings.  Although I did hear Maddow is really struggling for viewers now that the Russia story is a proven hoax.

Sorry, it has not been proven to be a hoax and you can't say that without seeing the 300 page Mueller report.

MSNBC's ratings are down but it could well be many people have had a similar reaction as they did when Trump won - they were just disgusted the ways things played out (Mueller's report being suppressed) and are just taking a respite from watching political news.

I think Maddow and MSNBC's ratings will both bounce back in the coming weeks. We will see. 

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1 hour ago, Koya said:

This is all the more true when someone has indeed acted, for years now, as a true propagandist (to the point that I've seriously at times considered is it our responsibility to point out a poster to some authorities as someone that might literally be infiltrating our public discourse / social media in a manner that can only be described as curiously aligned with foreign entities - on a full range of issues, not just Russian meddling in our elections - entities/nations that have been PROVEN to have undertaken concerted campaigns to do just that across any number of platforms. Do we ignore these realities and possibilities?

I've read some dark stuff on this board before, but this easily takes the throne.  Me and rove have been posting here for like 15 years.  I confess to trying to rustle some jimmies here and there (who wouldn't after what we've been confronted with?), but to actually believe that we became agents of a foreign power all of a sudden is really something else.  Just wild.  

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46 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I never realized how damn important this place is. 

Since I have more posts here than anyone else, does that make me the most important person here? 

You are definitely one of the most self important people here.

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13 minutes ago, Punxsutawney Phil said:

I saw an interview of Putin answering questions from reporters, and he pointed at a guy who asked the same question as the woman before him.  Putin said, "Honda".  I think it's fair to say not only have they infiltrated the ffa, but we are influencing their culture.

You mean Putin understands what Honda means yet I still don’t.  #### I need to catch up.  I keep seeing that posted around here and have no clue what it means....

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On 3/27/2019 at 5:40 PM, jonessed said:

Barr has been pretty clear that he will release the report with all of the information he is legally allowed to share.  I imagine that includes the bulk, if not all, of Mueller’s conclusions.  I don’t see what the issue is.

Quote

Ryan Goodman‏Verified account @rgoodlaw

Update on this front. Smart move by Chair of the House Judiciary Committee: "Nadler offered to join Barr to seek a judge's approval to unseal grand jury testimony," (via Associated Press)

- I think this is a really good approach, at least for this piece.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/27/2019 at 6:04 PM, shader said:

Impatience and conspiratorial thinking 

Just on the redaction front, there are three pieces and they're all different. 1. Grand jury testimony and maybe a report, 2. classified, and 3. executive privilege. They're not all the same. I think Jonessed raised some good points about grand jury material. And IMO classified will be responsibly handled by the IC, presuming they're left alone to do it. - But the executive privilege is definitely legitimately controversial, and really the WH should have no crack at that, none.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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5 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

I've read some dark stuff on this board before, but this easily takes the throne.  Me and rove have been posting here for like 15 years.  I confess to trying to rustle some jimmies here and there (who wouldn't after what we've been confronted with?), but to actually believe that we became agents of a foreign power all of a sudden is really something else.  Just wild.  

Yeah.  I have accused you of spreading/being influenced by Russian propaganda.  I don't think you are a bot or paid influencer.  I don't think our disagreements on this mean you are a bad guy.

Someone like the guy who was reposting posts from the Free Republic could be.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

I've read some dark stuff on this board before, but this easily takes the throne.  Me and rove have been posting here for like 15 years.  I confess to trying to rustle some jimmies here and there (who wouldn't after what we've been confronted with?), but to actually believe that we became agents of a foreign power all of a sudden is really something else.  Just wild.  

It's astonishing really. People so firm that this is an "us versus them" situation that they come to believe the other side is a massive orchestrated conspiracy. That's what prompted my post above. Everyone should take a moment and remember a kind, intelligent person they once knew who was of the "opposing" side. When someone starts having thoughts like that which you quoted, it's time to take a step back. And while people are at it, they should all take a moment to remember that person who held the same political beliefs but turned out to be a terrible person.

Edited by Mr Anonymous

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1 hour ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Four questions for everyone...

1) - Do you believe there are liberals who are good people and intelligent?

2) - Do you believe there are conservatives who are good people and intelligent?

3) - Do you believe there are liberals who are bad people and lack intelligence?

4) - Do you believe there are conservatives who are bad people and lack intelligence?

If your answers are anything but Yes to all four, then I truly feel sorry for your ignorance. There are good and bad people from all walks of life. Stop painting with such broad brushes.

Had to make it back to this to make sure and say damn :goodposting:.

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1 hour ago, dozer said:

It's kind of hard to accept that there are active foreign agents posting in here. However, if your job is to infiltrate american political discourse and you started with just googleing "political forum", we are the fourteenth entry.....

Not out of the realm of possibility...

FYI.

I do not visit this site very much and google does not have this site on the first 6 pages when i google political forum.

 

 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I disagree with ren hoak about 95% of the time I think. 

Claiming that he or anyone else here might be part of some orchestrated campaign by the Russians, or any other entity for that matter, strikes me as extremely paranoid, in the QAnon type of territory. Or is it shtick? 

https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1111487028980523008

 

More Q out there than you might think. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I never realized how damn important this place is. 

Since I have more posts here than anyone else, does that make me the most important person here? 

Volume and depth are not synonymous, but I appreciate the tongue in cheek humor with which your post was posted.

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1 hour ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Four questions for everyone...

1) - Do you believe there are liberals who are good people and intelligent?

2) - Do you believe there are conservatives who are good people and intelligent?

3) - Do you believe there are liberals who are bad people and lack intelligence?

4) - Do you believe there are conservatives who are bad people and lack intelligence?

If your answers are anything but Yes to all four, then I truly feel sorry for your ignorance. There are good and bad people from all walks of life. Stop painting with such broad brushes.

Whom do you believe to be answering "no" to any of those questions?

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1 hour ago, stlrams said:

I agree.  His chances of winning are 10-20%.

The do you think he will be re-elected tread poll has him ahead at 55%.

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Posted (edited)

As to evidence and proof, evidence can come in many forms from nearly insignificant, mere scintillas, to credible, to overwhelming amounts of consistent and confirming evidence internally and externally consistent and verifiable  upon which reasonable people can be morally certain of conclusions drawn therefrom.

 

In this matter there is evidence, more than a scintilla, a great deal more in my estimation. Absolute and irrefutable proof, not yet, maybe, not from what is revealed, but I wait and watch, and I have my suspicions.  I know how I would bet, if I had to bet.  I bet when consistent patterns are evident,

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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7 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Whom do you believe to be answering "no" to any of those questions?

People who refer to Trump supporters as being in a cult.  I think that's what prompted that post.  Perhaps he should have said Trump supporters instead of Conservatives.  

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5 minutes ago, tonydead said:

People who refer to Trump supporters as being in a cult.  I think that's what prompted that post.  Perhaps he should have said Trump supporters instead of Conservatives.  

Even if all of that is true, do you believe everyone in a cult is a bad person and not intelligent?

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2 hours ago, Koya said:

It is one thing to 'name call' other posters. Another altogether to accurately describe their behavior to forward important aspects of the conversation, the implication of certain behaviors, thought processes, and subsequent policies and actions.

As you note, the inability to speak honestly, sincerely, and in an earnest manner, is a form of thought censorship that only reinforces the negative repercussions of a clear intentional strategy of a President, he GOP, and their supporters to one one hand muddy the truth, eliminate legitimate, fact based debate, and literally have us 'ignore' the facts, the truth, that which we see, that which we hear.

The mod's choice to curtail a check on lies, trolling, purposeful obfuscation, while allowing trolling, lies, and obfuscation to continue feeds right into the strategy of those who wish to eliminate objective truth to eliminate legitimate dissent and destroy thoughtful and constructive discourse.

This is all the more true when someone has indeed acted, for years now, as a true propagandist (to the point that I've seriously at times considered is it our responsibility to point out a poster to some authorities as someone that might literally be infiltrating our public discourse / social media in a manner that can only be described as curiously aligned with foreign entities - on a full range of issues, not just Russian meddling in our elections - entities/nations that have been PROVEN to have undertaken concerted campaigns to do just that across any number of platforms. Do we ignore these realities and possibilities?

Considering the orchestrated campaigns on other platforms, should we just naively assume there's not chance that such forces are looking to influence this community in a less than honest and earnest manner, and for the benefit of foreign entities that are still conducting ongoing efforts to damage our democracy? 

So much for being resilient to protect our democracies and freedoms.

As such, I took the @FBG Moderator 's suggestion. Other than my posts in dire hope to change management's mind as to allow legit discourse (including harsh truths and realities), I can no longer in good conscience participate in muted discussions whereby the truth is shackled while those who wish to blur the truth for their agenda's purpose are allowed to continue doing just that.

It is an 'out there' theory or thought but not without some possibility.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-day-we-discovered-our-parents-were-russian-spies

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Whom do you believe to be answering "no" to any of those questions?

Hopefully no one, c'mon man.

But people sure don't act like it.

Edited by Mr Anonymous

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Even if all of that is true, do you believe everyone in a cult is a bad person and not intelligent?

No I do not.  But people repeatedly posting to that group calling them cultist is insinuating that they are and at the very least not acting every excellent.  That's probably why the mods asked for it to stop.

11 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Hopefully no one, c'mon man.

But people sure don't act like it.

I agree with Mr. A.  Way too much painting with broad brushes.

Edited by tonydead

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Two questions for everyone:

1. Do you think clouds are made up of cotton balls yanked apart and held in the sky by angels?

2. Do you think Ronald Reagan rode a dinosaur to defeat Stalin at the Battle of Little Bighorn?

If your answers are anything but No to both of those questions, I feel sorry for your ignorance.

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Just now, Henry Ford said:

Two questions for everyone:

1. Do you think clouds are made up of cotton balls yanked apart and held in the sky by angels?

2. Do you think Ronald Reagan rode a dinosaur to defeat Stalin at the Battle of Little Bighorn?

If your answers are anything but No to both of those questions, I feel sorry for your ignorance.

Yikes

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Just now, Mr Anonymous said:

Yikes

I just don't understand - and maybe I'm misjudging the room - whom you believe to actually answer "no" to any of your four questions?  One would have to be an ignoramus of gigantic proportions to think there are not intelligent, decent people who are conservatives and who are liberals.  

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Just now, Mr Anonymous said:

Yes, that's abundantly clear.

You're clearly addressing someone.  Self-professed conservatives liked the post and said "good posting."  And no, I just don't get it.  Is there an argument I'm missing, here?  Someone you were speaking to who has expressed otherwise recently?

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So apparently Barr discussed strategy with Graham before discussing planning for release of the Mueller report with Nadler
 

Quote

 

House Democrats are on a collision course with Attorney General William Barr as it appears increasingly unlikely he will comply with their demands to see Robert Mueller's full unredacted report — let alone the evidence that backs it up.

At a Thursday briefing, senior House Democratic staff elaborated on a Wednesday night call between Barr and Judiciary Chairman Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., telling reporters that Barr refused to commit to asking a judge to release grand jury information to Congress.

And the staffers emphasized that Barr all but refused to give Nadler an unredacted copy of the report.

"I asked whether he could commit that the full report and unredacted full report with the underlying documents and evidence will be provided to Congress and to the American people, and he wouldn’t commit to that," Nadler told reporters Wednesday night.

Staffers also said Barr acknowledged making a mistake by speaking extensively with the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Lindsey Graham, a Republican of South Carolina, over dinner before he had spoken with Nadler.

It's all setting up a major confrontation next week if the Justice Department doesn't send the full Mueller report to Congress by Tuesday, as six committee chairmen have demanded.

The next step, the staffers said, would be a subpoena. "We'll have more to say on April 3," one staffer said. ...

 

 

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Quote

The Democrats, meanwhile, argued that the Republican-controlled 115th Congress set a precedent for asking for and receiving highly sensitive and classified material related to the probe into Russia’s interference in the U.S. election, which Mueller then took over— and they’re demanding the same degree of transparency now. For instance, the DOJ turned over roughly 880,000 pages of internal investigative records from the Hillary Clinton email probe in July 2018, one staffer said, as well as “thousands of pages from highly sensitive documents, including classified and law-enforcement-sensitive information, related to the ongoing Russia investigation that Mueller took over.”

Natasha Bertrand.

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37 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

You're clearly addressing someone.  Self-professed conservatives liked the post and said "good posting."  And no, I just don't get it.  Is there an argument I'm missing, here?  Someone you were speaking to who has expressed otherwise recently?

He was asking people to paint less with broad brushes, which is a good thing. He even spelled out his underlying point "There are good and bad people in all walks of life".  Doubling down trying to find a logic loophole for yourself isn't a good look.  

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Headline on Fox about how more than half of Americans believe Mueller probe fair and agree with the results. Which is curious since it hasn't been released yet. 

Well played republicans.  Horrible for the US and justice but well played. 

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38 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

You're clearly addressing someone.  Self-professed conservatives liked the post and said "good posting."  And no, I just don't get it.  Is there an argument I'm missing, here?  Someone you were speaking to who has expressed otherwise recently?

I'm going to need a link for the bold.  Since I was the only one that liked the post and other guy that said "good posting" is a liberal.  

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36 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

 

Dems need to stop talking and start doing.  Issue the subpoena for the report, and the records.  Subpoena Barr.  Subpoena Mueller.  Subpoena Rosenstein.  Lets stop dancing around, and get down to business.

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1 minute ago, Jackstraw said:

That's different

Why?

Because F you. Thats why. 

I see you've met the Republicans.

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10 minutes ago, tonydead said:

He was asking people to paint less with broad brushes, which is a good thing. He even spelled out his underlying point "There are good and bad people in all walks of life".  Doubling down trying to find a logic loophole for yourself isn't a good look.  

I'm not looking for a loophole.  I'm trying to figure out what people on this board are worth completely ignoring because they define the parties by good and evil, smart and stupid.  People I've clearly missed.

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12 minutes ago, tonydead said:

I'm going to need a link for the bold.  Since I was the only one that liked the post and other guy that said "good posting" is a liberal.  

Fair point.  I mistook you for a conservative and him for stlrams.  I apologize deeply.  I'm in a bit of a tizzy today.

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15 minutes ago, 2Squirrels1Nut said:

Headline on Fox about how more than half of Americans believe Mueller probe fair and agree with the results. Which is curious since it hasn't been released yet. 

Well played republicans.  Horrible for the US and justice but well played. 

That’s just what Fox says. I’m seeing otherwise. It seems people aren’t quite buying what they’re selling without seeing the goods.

Strong majority don’t buy it

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1 hour ago, Henry Ford said:

Two questions for everyone:

1. Do you think clouds are made up of cotton balls yanked apart and held in the sky by angels?

2. Do you think Ronald Reagan rode a dinosaur to defeat Stalin at the Battle of Little Bighorn?

If your answers are anything but No to both of those questions, I feel sorry for your ignorance.

Like Mona Lisa Vito I will not be trapped by your trick questions.  Everybody knows Reagan defeated Stalin at the Battle of Chickamauga which is why the town there is now called Reagangrad.

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18 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

 

Dems need to stop talking and start doing.  Issue the subpoena for the report, and the records.  Subpoena Barr.  Subpoena Mueller.  Subpoena Rosenstein.  Lets stop dancing around, and get down to business.

Me, I am willing to wait a decent interval before moving to such actions.  How long is that interval, I can't say, but not at the speed of partisan dissatisfaction. I say thoughtful and correct redaction can be done in a week.  It has not yet been a week so I am not overly anxious.

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3 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Me, I am willing to wait a decent interval before moving to such actions.  How long is that interval, I can't say, but not at the speed of partisan dissatisfaction. I say thoughtful and correct redaction can be done in a week.  It has not yet been a week so I am not overly anxious.

If I were the GOP, I would be mighty concerned with the timing of whatever happens in the future.  It would be foolish, in my opinion, to allow the question of whether they are required to produce this report to Democrats to be in front of the Supreme Court in an election year.  At that point it won't matter what's actually in it.

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13 minutes ago, The Football Freak said:

That’s just what Fox says. I’m seeing otherwise. It seems people aren’t quite buying what they’re selling without seeing the goods.

Strong majority don’t buy it

Quote

Just 18 percent overall said Barr's summary is enough.

 

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