Godsbrother
Footballguy
The better question is why the President's words almost always come back to bite him?
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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter whoknew
- Start date
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I listen to a lot of things this president says. But my question remains, why do Trump supporters ignore the things he says when it suits them? Trump made that statement and people cheered, now the situation is reversed and its ignored.
supermike80
Footballguy
With congress and the executive office seemingly more polarized than at any time in our history, and the glaring media presence, even if I was innocent I might plead it. You could accidentally say something and it haunts you forever. To heck with that
supermike80
Footballguy
supermike80
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I think there are two different pieces to this. One piece includes the redacted classified footnotes and narrative sections of the report. I'm all for subpoenaing that and in fact I think there is a section in the US code explicitly about people oversee or investigate counterintelligence matters having access to just those kinds of materials. The only problem is, like a lot of the other stuff in this investigation, it's almost never had to have been challenged before so it's not like there's much precedent to point to. What we do know is that as a matter of practice and tradition the IC and DOJ have always shared such information with key Congressional leadership because [slaps head] they are the representatives of the people charged with knowing what the hell is going on with protecting the country. - Most recently the GOP regularly pushed for and got access for just that kind of material. And ultimately even though I hate their motives they were correct, the DOJ is ultimately a creation of Congress.
The other piece is whatever IC has as a file or internal report on the counterintelligence investigation. Who knows if there is a report, or if there is a file or detail that wasn't even shared with the FBI or OSC. I think we always knew since the beginning of this thing that one of the big challenges would be that some of the most important evidence could be publicly unusable. I have no idea what to do with that or if it will ever be obtainable in the near future.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
We've discovered a whole new level of lack of self awareness today.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
You were totally right about that. Apparently the WH and Junior's people are attacking Burr behind the scenes. If I'm not mistaken Burr isn't running for reelection either.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I think that a man that is so strongly opinionated on what others are doing should hold himself to the same standards. It is sad that so many people don't think that character is an important trait for a President.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I know you don't soak this stuff in or care, but I just think it's worth noting, because it's definitely come more into focus as the public has had time to distill this long report: 200+ (~250?) contacts between the campaign and Russian state and non-state actors. From what I can tell folks like Junior and Page didn't get knicked because they did not know they were dealing with agents (a point Ren made above which I agree with) and they were just plain ignorant of the law (which matters in campaign finance law apparently). - Then 10 instances of obstruction, which as it's a round 10 is just basically a finite number they felt they had enough to stop at, plus a few other arguable instances like refusal to interview.
And Mueller stated that DOJ did not have jurisdiction to indict, whatsoever, and he provided citation and chapter and verse.
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joffer
Footballguy
prefontaine
Footballguy
One important point on this -- the SSCI is made up of 8 Republicans and 7 Democrats. I believe issuing subpoenas would be simple majority so it is entirely possible Burr did not vote to do it.
The 8 GOP members are
- Burr NC
- Risch ID
- Rubio FL
- Collins ME
- Blunt MO
- Cotton AR
- Cornyn TX
- Sasse NE
On a side note, this phenomenon seems to be an underappreciated argument for term limits.
Weebs210
Footballguy
All I've heard for two years is Mueller is going to walk Trump out in handcuffs. Now that Trump has been cleared you guys change your tune.
Brony
Footballguy
I remember watching Road Runner as a kid and occasionally I would wonder why the coyote wouldn't just give up after getting schooled by the road runner every day. Those thoughts went away after awhile and then it became just plain fun to watch the coyote get demolished in new ways each time.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I may have discussed this with you previously. Manafort flipping back off the line was a key event. I don't think anyone should be blamed for thinking Manafort would implicate Trump, in fact I think Trump or Junior thought that.
But the issue of the OLC memo was discussed from the very beginning of this thing. And I think as a conservative you'd agree that removal or leaving office is absolutely necessary for any president to be arrested. I don't think anyone here would have argued about that. As Mueller himself stated:
prefontaine
Footballguy
Maybe I'm not aware enough of the details, but why wouldn't Stone have a right to see the underlying evidence that incriminates him?
I'm not sure the report is necessary for that (and maybe that's the point) though.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
The two biggest events for Trump in this thing were: 1. Sessions' firing/quitting (your pick); 2. Manafort flipping back off his plea agreement, something Mueller attributes to Trump's own interference.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Stone's making the argument that Barr has said there is no underlying crime (participation in the specific Russian hacking) so he cannot be indicted.
Meanwhile Barr's own DOJ lawyers have said that underlying crime is not necessary.
I don't think it's necessary either, I think Stone is claiming there may be exculpatory info under the redactions, so I guess the judge is looking at that.
Btw Andrew Miller is now taking his subpoena fight to the Supreme Court, though the appeal hasn't been taken up yet.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
It was known from the start that Mueller could not arrest Trump.
Memes involving Mueller arresting Trump were largely created by conservatives as a straw man.
He has a right to see evidence that incriminates him if it's going to be used against him at trial. He doesn't have a right to see incriminating evidence that won't be used against him because such evidence is irrelevant.
He does, however, have a good argument for getting to see all evidence known to the state that does the opposite of incriminating him -- i.e., evidence that tends to exonerate him.
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Weebs210
Footballguy
I'm not digging through thousands of pages of trash to find that. I know I've read it many times in this thread.
I think it would be good form to either support your claim with evidence or retract it. But you can make your own decision about that.
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McJose
Footballguy
CentralPA
Footballguy
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Very few people with any sense believe anything he says because he lies like most people breathe.
But it's sometimes useful to quote the President's past statements when they're 100% the opposite of what he's saying now in order to make that point.
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Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Putting aside all legal issues: if Donald Trump Jr actually were to plead the 5th that would be a HUGE political disaster for Trump. I don’t think he can do it, not if Trump wants to have any chance at re-election. Far better for Jr to say “I can’t recall” a thousand times, or even offer lies, than to take the 5th.
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
In this instance it would seem to me that if you disagree with scooter, the burden of proof is on YOU. You need to come up with actual discussion about Mueller arresting Trump that wasn’t generated from conservative sources.
timschochet
Footballguy
supermike80
Footballguy
Sometimes I don't know if you are trolling or if you really don't understand how things actually work.
Trump not geting re-elected cause his son takes the 5th? HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAAA. Sure..THAT'LL be the one that flips people. Jeez
timschochet
Footballguy
Oh I think you misunderstood me. Trump has only a small chance of being re-elected right NOW. The key people who got him elected last time are already flipped. They could flip again but I wouldn’t put my money on it. Jr taking the 5th wouldn’t change those odds, it would just make things even more difficult. It could be the final nail in the coffin.
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[scooter]
Footballguy
I'm not digging through thousands of pages of trash to find that. I know I've read it many times in this thread.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
He said memes were created by conservatives as a strawman. How the hell is the burden of proof on me to prove that is false? He made the statement. Back it up.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I'm sure weebs feels the same thing about what Maurile is asking of him. Asking someone to provide links for months and years ago on this forum is a pointless exercise.
timschochet
Footballguy
The statement he made was that those memes are false. If you disagree, it’s up to you to prove they are real.
Me: The Wizard of Oz is fiction. There’s no girl named Dorothy who went to a magical kingdom called Oz.
RW: Oh yeah? Prove it didn’t happen! Show me your work.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
At least read what you're babbling about between posting 1000 times a day. This was the exact post I responded to. I asked for proof memes were created by conservatives as a straw man. I didn't comment on nor ask about true/false scenarios.
"Memes involving Mueller arresting Trump were largely created by conservatives as a straw man."
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
That’s not being excellent.
Did it occur to either of you that my entire post was a subtle jab at Weebs' mentality?
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I’m just waiting for Tim to demand an apology from himself.
Did it occur to either of you that my entire post was a subtle jab at Weebs' mentality?
timschochet
Footballguy
I read it exactly right the first time.
Scooter asserted, correctly, that there was no serious discussion from the left about Mueller arresting Trump- that was all a fantasy made up by right wingers. If you want to disagree with him fine- but then it’s up to you to show your work, not him.
This is all part of the same nonsense. All day long in this thread, several times a day, we hear the same nonsense from pro-Trumpers:
You guys said he’d be impeached and removed!
You guys said he’d be in jail by now!
You guys said this would be the end of Trump!
Etc, etc, and followed by snickers and claims that, because Democrats embarrassed themselves, Trump is a lock for re-election. But it’s all a fantasy. Nobody here seriously discussed or predicted any of those things. Impeachment, sure. But conviction, arrest as President, jail time as President? Completely made up on the conservative side and being used as a form of really lame attack. And now that it appears that the only reason that the Mueller report initially appeared to have exonerated Trump is that Barr flat out lied about it, these claims are especially laughable and embarrassing. But pursue them if you must.
badmojo1006
Footballguy
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Tim we don't even know who Trump's opponent will be. We have no idea who has flipped or will flip by next November.
I expect things to get way worse for Dems as more info comes out.
