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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (10 Viewers)

Max Power said:
Now you're arguing semantics.  And Trump said do "us" a favor, but libs aren't willing to apply this same standard to that.   

I'd also propose that "gross incompetence" and "more consequential" look even worse for Comey than my phrasing.
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It's not semantics. The words literally mean different things. "Incompetence" means that a person does not possess the requisite skills to perform a given task. "Negligence" means that they have the skills but failed to utilize them.

"Gross negligence" is a phrase that has criminal ramifications. I'm guessing that you're well aware of that because Comey himself created a scandal in 2016 when he changed the description of Hillary's behavior from "grossly negligent" (a potential crime) to "extremely careless" (not a crime).

You're one of the biggest complainers about "Fake News" on these boards, so it's a little surprising to see you use their tactics in your own posts.

 
[scooter] said:
It's not semantics. The words literally mean different things. "Incompetence" means that a person does not possess the requisite skills to perform a given task. "Negligence" means that they have the skills but failed to utilize them.

"Gross negligence" is a phrase that has criminal ramifications. I'm guessing that you're well aware of that because Comey himself created a scandal in 2016 when he changed the description of Hillary's behavior from "grossly negligent" (a potential crime) to "extremely careless" (not a crime).

You're one of the biggest complainers about "Fake News" on these boards, so it's a little surprising to see you use their tactics in your own posts.
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does not possess the requisite skills to perform a given task - This is who is working our FBI cases? This is who is working internal investigations into our elections.  Obama and Comey had this humming along didn't they. 

And don't be a "you" poster. 

 
Max Power said:
does not possess the requisite skills to perform a given task - This is who is working our FBI cases? This is who is working internal investigations into our elections.  Obama and Comey had this humming along didn't they. 
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It's the difference between "they need more training" and "they were out to get Trump".

It's important for the conspiracy theory crowd to push the phrase "gross negligence" because it allows them to push the theory that the FBI was out to get Trump.

 
[scooter] said:
It's the difference between "they need more training" and "they were out to get Trump".

It's important for the conspiracy theory crowd to push the phrase "gross negligence" because it allows them to push the theory that the FBI was out to get Trump.
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A lawyer changing "is" to "is not" on a document just needs more training? 

How long has the FBI such a mess?  I personally tend to believe that political bias was in play more than 3 "Hand picked" teams of agents made major mistakes.  But that is just me...

 
Max Power said:
A lawyer changing "is" to "is not" on a document just needs more training? 

How long has the FBI such a mess?  I personally tend to believe that political bias was in play more than 3 "Hand picked" teams of agents made major mistakes.  But that is just me...
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Have other reviews of cases with similar import and timing been conducted? 

 
Max Power said:
Internal FBI investigations?  I do not know.  Considering how poor their leadership has been, I doubt they initiated many. 
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So you don't know that the FBI doesn't make mistakes of this time in similar circumstances. Neither do I, but I'm not claiming that there's another motive at play either.

 
The Z Machine said:
So you don't know that the FBI doesn't make mistakes of this time in similar circumstances. Neither do I, but I'm not claiming that there's another motive at play either.
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Are you implying that the FBI changes documents on the regular? Excludes intelligence that misrepresents the truth? Creates circular reporting to verify "claims"?  Doesn't stop investigations that have shown no merit?

 
Max Power said:
Are you implying that the FBI changes documents on the regular? Excludes intelligence that misrepresents the truth? Creates circular reporting to verify "claims"?  Doesn't stop investigations that have shown no merit?
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I thought I read somewhere that either Durham or the FISA courts themselves were going back to look at some of other FISA requests and seeing if they were on the up and up.

 
BladeRunner said:
I thought I read somewhere that either Durham or the FISA courts themselves were going back to look at some of other FISA requests and seeing if they were on the up and up.
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You are correct.  Horowitz  will be reviewing to determine if the errors are systematic.  They are calling it the first ever "Deep Dive" into the FISA process.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/horowitz-examining-past-fisa-applications-to-determine-if-fbis-basic-errors-are-systemic/

 
Max Power said:
You are correct.  Horowitz  will be reviewing to determine if the errors are systematic.  They are calling it the first ever "Deep Dive" into the FISA process.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/horowitz-examining-past-fisa-applications-to-determine-if-fbis-basic-errors-are-systemic/
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Good. I welcome some proper oversight after the sloppy work on crossfire hurricane. The FBI should do better.

That doesn't mean there's a grand conspiracy at hand, nor does it mean that the people vilified by POTUS had political motives in their work. In fact, the exact opposite was highlighted by Horrowitz.

 
Max Power said:
Are you implying that the FBI changes documents on the regular? Excludes intelligence that misrepresents the truth? Creates circular reporting to verify "claims"?  Doesn't stop investigations that have shown no merit?
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https://i.imgur.com/MXTBiZf.jpg

Look, Comey said the FBI did some sloppiness but overall it’s a noble institution.  Yeah they tried to blackmail MLK and entrapped mentally ill people to rack up terror stats, but they’re just spooks trying to protect us. It would have been derelict not to lie to the courts and mislead the country for years- Steele said they were Russian agents!  

 
ren hoek said:
Steele said they were Russian agents!  
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Horowitz reported that Page stated that the Deputy PM for Russia, whom he met during that NES visit he had, offered him a million plus for a think tank. If you're interested I quoted the snip from the report in the FBI thread.

 
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ShamrockPride said:
Another swing and a miss for the Russiagaters here and everywhere

Federal analysis finds no evidence of cyberattack on Durham County election in 2016
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Yep- this whole thing was largely overblown.  DHS undersec Chris Krebs said as much, that the ‘21 state cyberattack’ was “simple scanning,” and that he “wouldn’t characterize it as an attack.”  

But I’m not sure there’s much point trying to convince people otherwise.  The amount of fear and pandemonium that took root over some embarrassing email leaks and social media posts is really disproportionate to the actual threat posed by them- nevermind all of the literal fake news like the Vermont electrical grid story.  The fear campaign worked.  

Here is the thread where people argued the “Russian interference” was worse than 9/11 & Pearl Harbor: https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/767952-did-2016-russian-meddling-or-911-do-greater-long-term-damage-to-the-us/

 
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ren hoek said:
https://i.imgur.com/MXTBiZf.jpg

Look, Comey said the FBI did some sloppiness but overall it’s a noble institution.  Yeah they tried to blackmail MLK and entrapped mentally ill people to rack up terror stats, but they’re just spooks trying to protect us. It would have been derelict not to lie to the courts and mislead the country for years- Steele said they were Russian agents!  
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They are in denial.  The FBI has never been a noble institution.  It’s not like they are doing charity work out there.  It’s run by people who are flawed, selfish, and power-hungry, like most any other large, authoritarian organization.  They need to be constantly monitored and kept in check.

 
ren hoek said:
Yep- this whole thing was largely overblown.  DHS undersec Chris Krebs said as much, that the ‘21 state cyberattack’ was “simple scanning,” and that he “wouldn’t characterize it as an attack.”
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It's terrifying that people don't understand cyber security.  The above is akin to "oh, it's just a concrete pad with a fuel supply.  I'd hardly consider it as the beginnings of a military launch facility".

Scans are always the prelude to something more.  It's a GOOD thing they were found and recognized.  They were evidence of things to come if we don't take the necessary steps to address them.

 
Mr. Ham said:
This really bothers me, and shows how susceptible we can be to disinformation. 

Let’s be clear. The FBI is an important institution that in total has kept Americans safe and enforced our laws. You and your family are safer for it.

Like any bureaucracy, it will have flaws. But the tactics on display here, which is to discredit the entirety of a thing based on outliers is the stuff that allows states like Russia to open fissures and systematically weaken us as a nation. 
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They are an important institution and me and my family are safer for it.  This and my previous comments are not mutually exclusive.

You are being too myopic.

 
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Mr. Ham said:
Context of Ren’s post is textbook FSB. Take the most vile historical acts and hold them up as norm, and use them as a straw man to discredit something else. You gladly layered on, painting those who run the FBI as power hungry. I’m pointing out that that’s not a fair portrayal, and glad you clarified a more reasonable view that the FBI is an important institution that has benefited you and your family. I think that’s more proper context, and glad we corrected it together. 
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I think I was pretty clear that it wasn’t a correction.  It was simply a statement added for your clarity.  Those two opinions are not mutually exclusive.

 
Bucky86 said:
Shimon Prokupecz

@ShimonPro

In interview with FBI, Paul Manafort said he used Fox News host Sean Hannity as a “back channel” to President Trump in the period between the FBI raid of his apartment and his indictment months later, in October 2017. Details from newly released FBI documents.

4:46 PM · Jan 2, 2020·Twitter for iPhone

Shimon Prokupecz

@ShimonPro

Hannity would send supportive messages to Manafort,telling him to hang in there and that Trump had his back. Manafort said he didn’t recall any direct or indirect communication with the White House in the period, but that Hannity,a personal friend,was “certainly a back channel.”

4:47 PM · Jan 2, 2020
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Totally a conspiracy theory here

 
Slapdash said:
Robert J. DeNault

@robertjdenault

BREAKING: A Whistleblower told the FBI that Trump’s Deutsche Bank loans were backed by Russian state-owned bank, VTB Bank. VTB was proposed lender for Trump Tower Moscow and allegedly funded the Rosneft Deal. New docs show deep ties between Deutsche + VTB.
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Huge if true, but not exactly surprising.

 
The idea of a Deep State plot to undermine Donald Trump is popular in Republican circles, but all this lunacy at least somewhat undermines that analysis. Russiagate turns out to be impossible to understand minus the element of sincere, if misguided or insane, belief. Investigators and then press figures reasoned themselves into one proposition, only to end up on a years-long roller-coaster embracing pee tapes and acoustic brain attacks and killer Putin-dolphins (trained for the inevitable trans-polar Russian assault). 

A section of the recently-released report by Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz exemplifies how key players became captive to their own mind loops. 

Horowitz found out key assertions about Trump-Russia collusion appeared to come from Russian oligarch and metals baron Oleg Deripaska, who in 2016 employed ex-spy Christopher Steele to help him in a lawsuit against Trump aide Paul Manafort. This was the same Deripaska whose ostensible ties to Russian intelligence would end up being central to Trump-Russia collusion theories, as he reportedly received polling data from the Trump campaign through a middleman.  

In other words: when information was going to OlegDeripaska, he was an FSB villain. When it came from Deripaska, it was trusted. Why? Horowitz quoted counterintelligence chief Bill Priestap:

Why the Russians, and [Deripaska] is supposed to be close, very close to the Kremlin, why the Russians would try to denigrate an opponent that the intel community later said they were in favor of who didn’t really have a chance at winning, I’m struggling with… I know from my Intelligence Community work: they favored Trump, they’re trying to denigrate Clinton, and they wanted to sow chaos. I don’t know why you’d run a disinformation campaign to denigrate Trump on the side. 
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To dig into one of the most serious investigative questions the country had ever faced – the possibility that a presidential candidate was in league with foreign intelligence – the FBI turned to an ex-spy with a reputation for “poor judgment” and a “lack of self-awareness” who happened to be on the payroll of both the rival presidential campaign and a Russian plutocrat pal of Vladimir Putin. Asked why they had confidence in this person and his sources, the sincere answer was, “Why would they lie?”

Intelligence officials launched an investigation based on a series of assumptions, then used those assumptions as a reason not to question the assumptions. As one congressional investigator put it to me, “You can’t make this #### up.”

On the Great Russia Caper

 
“It is a task made even more difficult by new threats to the election from other American rivals, such as Iran, which has more motive than ever to interfere in 2020 after a drone strike killed its top security and intelligence commander last week in Iraq.”

Watch out guys, the Russians, Iranians, North Koreans and perhaps some 4th official bad guy are going to hack corporate sellout candidate emails and expose how ####ty they are, also they’re going to post some dank memes on facebook and peddle disinformation, unlike the false narrative we here at the nyt and our anonymous spook sources just got done shilling for 3 years with zero evidence, Bill Kristol’s neocon think tank just said so!  Be afraid!  

 
 
So Trump flips out when the DNI briefs Congress on Russia’s attempts to interfere on Trump’s behalf in 2020 election...

Um...

 
rockaction said:
It could be that the two are intertwined, a scarier thought. 
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Yeah i think everything mentioned is intertwined. Power, perception and interference. There’s just no legitimate justification for the intelligence community to continually say, “our elections are being interfered with” and the President to not only ignore it but actively combat efforts to prevent it. 

 
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