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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (8 Viewers)

Henry Ford said:
I don't know, are we still pretending Lewandowski didn't get fired?
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Are we still pretending Lewandowski got fired over the Fields incident or did you just miss my point? I figured you were trolling so I didn't bother replying.

My point was Trump isn't going to fire Bannon just because everyone in the media hates him.

My reasoning for that is Trump didn't fire Lewandowski over the Fields incident when they were putting tremendous pressure on him to do just that, so why would he fire Bannon?

yes, he eventually fired Lewandowski but it had nothing to do with the Fields incident and everything to do with his ability.

Bannon gets the job done, so Trump has no reason to fire him. The media crying about him every day isn't going to intimidate Trump into firing him.

The only way Trump would ever fire Bannon is if he thought he was doing a bad job.

 
Rove! said:
Up until Jan 20, the US govt was run by opponents of nationalist candidates and has US give has interfered in more elections than Putin is accused of.  
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Le Pen is offering to recognize Russian annexation of Crimea in exchange for $30 million.

 
Henry Ford said:
What?
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The US has interfered with many foreign elections and has the resources to do so and would likely have opposed LePen until recently.

In addition, with billions at stake, there are probably any number of billionaires that could fund a hacking operation

 
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natehale ‏@natehale 11h11 hours ago

NORAD says it is shifting its operational focus to deal with a significant "air threat" from Russia.

NORAD ***'t ops director of ops tells Air Force Magazine new Russian cruise missiles allow less predictable tactics than legacy systems

Improving Russian standoff capabilities force NORAD to defend airspace at much greater distances; may require more fighters, AAR, AWACS
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- Next generation cruise missiles put out by Russia.

To defeat legacy systems held by Isis? Nah.
 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Name one time the US weaponized data they stole from foreign governments.
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Actual assassination is preferred, I think, over character assassination. That said, US -  and its proxies - had meddled in elections for generations. The cynicism of those on the Right is matched by the naivete of the Left. What some observers object to is the application of the dark arts in our election by outsiders 

 
The Football Freak said:
Wow. Assange is now supporting the populist/white nationalist in another country...and maybe doing more of Putin's dirty work? The evidence is really starting to pile up, pointing to Assange as a big part of the problem.  It would seem he may prefer a new world order where white people and fascists are on top. I hope that gives some of the wikileaks supporters pause, and makes them reassess what side they want to be on. 
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This is all in Dugin's textbook. 

 
saintfool said:
Actual assassination is preferred, I think, over character assassination. That said, US -  and its proxies - had meddled in elections for generations. The cynicism of those on the Right is matched by the naivete of the Left. What some observers object to is the application of the dark arts in our election by outsiders 
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It's a short list in reality, Mosadegh in the 50s, tried to get Castro in the 60s, funded the Contras in the 80s... but 1. you defend your own, this is America and Americans should defend it, no one expects *Iranians to support the US installing the Shah for 30 years, and 2. Putin is a legitimate bad guy here, choose if you're pro democracy and our system or Putin's and whatever he wants from Trump.

 
Rove! said:
Let's start in Italy 1948 where, worse, they forged documents 

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html

". The Agency also forged documents and letters purported to come from the PCI which were designed to put the party in a bad light and discredit its leaders;"
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'Start'? Any others?

Btw like I said failing that if you're supporting Putin autocracy and Stalinist communism in 2016 & 1948 over Western democracy both times and see no moral difference then you've just lost your compass.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
It's a short list in reality, Mosadegh in the 50s, tried to get Castro in the 60s, funded the Contras in the 80s... but 1. you defend your own, this is America and Americans should defend it, no one expects *Iranians to support the US installing the Shah for 30 years, and 2. Putin is a legitimate bad guy here, choose if you're pro democracy and our system or Putin's and whatever he wants from Trump.
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I don't disagree too much with what you're saying but there is a measure of truth to it. We're not accustomed to hearing that line of thinking from usual "American exceptionalism" crowd. It betrays a deep cynicism about our politics to hear it from those guys.  

 
mr roboto said:
He has to defend Putin cause he's pro-Trump. It's disgusting. 
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Absolutely ridiculous

the original argument that Assange and WikiLeaks are suppressing information based on some preference falls apart because there are other sites that would be more than willing to move forward with that same info...and it hasn't happened.

the argument that only Russia has a sophisticated  or motivated enough operation to steal a couple of PDFs from a DNC server and to phish John Podesta for his password is pretty silly.

The tools used, phishing and some commercially available Ukrainian software tells me that it wouldn't take much sophistication or funding, at all to have done what was alleged.

 
Rove! said:
Absolutely ridiculous

the original argument that Assange and WikiLeaks are suppressing information based on some preference falls apart because there are other sites that would be more than willing to move forward with that same info...and it hasn't happened.

the argument that only Russia has a sophisticated  or motivated enough operation to steal a couple of PDFs from a DNC server and to phish John Podesta for his password is pretty silly.

The tools used, phishing and some commercially available Ukrainian software tells me that it wouldn't take much sophistication or funding, at all to have done what was alleged.
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Rove no one is arguing that Russia did it because they're the only ones with means.

 
Regarding US intervention in other elections, Noam Chomsky has long written and spoken of such things.  I read a lot of his stuff years ago, but have not kept up with anything current on his plate.  I'm not sure if he is a true loon or not in this regard, but it is definitely interesting.

Something short and recent here.

Again, I am not endorsing this, as I haven't researched anything here...just adding to the perspectives.

 
Rove! said:
Absolutely ridiculous

the original argument that Assange and WikiLeaks are suppressing information based on some preference falls apart because there are other sites that would be more than willing to move forward with that same info...and it hasn't happened.

the argument that only Russia has a sophisticated  or motivated enough operation to steal a couple of PDFs from a DNC server and to phish John Podesta for his password is pretty silly.

The tools used, phishing and some commercially available Ukrainian software tells me that it wouldn't take much sophistication or funding, at all to have done what was alleged.
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I'm amazed that's what you got from my posts, when I said none of it. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
'Start'? Any others?

Btw like I said failing that if you're supporting Putin autocracy and Stalinist communism in 2016 & 1948 over Western democracy both times and see no moral difference then you've just lost your compass.
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I have done enough homework for one night.

Dov Leven of Carnegie Mellon University has put together an entire database on the subject of election interference by major powers...not available on the web yet, but he did publish a paper on his reasearch

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0738894216661190

some light reading....

 
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Rove! said:
I have done enough homework for one night.

Dov Leven of Carnegie Mellon University has put together an entire database on the subject of election interference by major powers...not available on the web yet, but he did publish a paper on his reasearch

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0738894216661190

some light reading....
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I'm well aware of this report - you mentioned it in your OP, then I raised 3 points/questions only for you to repeat the OP. Ok, thanks.

 
mr roboto said:
This is all in Dugin's textbook. 
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Indeed. It's also pretty eye-opening when you look at what Putin's done in places like Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine. And not just the frozen conflicts to lock in his influence and hold the west at bay, but the disinformation campaigns, propaganda and plants inside those countries. 

https://www.google.com/amp/foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/13/putins-frozen-conflicts/amp/?client=safari

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/379880/?client=safari

I posted a couple articles in one of the nuked threads about how Putin's troll army seemed to be trying to help Trump during the campaign.

 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/russia-internet-trolls-and-donald-trump-2016-7?client=safari

And now we have WikiLeaks showing a disturbing pattern of supporting the populist white nationalists in a few countries. Putin seems to be a busy guy.

I'm gonna have a beer.

 
Not a puppet...he removes the sanctions on the FSB.  Just breathtaking. 

Today, the Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) published Cyber-related General License (GL) 1, "Authorizing Certain Transactions with the Federal Security Service," pursuant to Executive Order 13694 of April 1, 2015, "Blocking the Property of Certain Persons Engaging in Significant Malicious Cyber-Enabled Activities." GL 1 authorizes certain transactions with the Federal Security Service (a.k.a. FSB) that are necessary and ordinarily incident to requesting certain licenses and authorizations for the importation, distribution, or use of certain information technology products in the Russian Federation, as well as transactions necessary and ordinarily incident to comply with rules and regulations administered by, and certain actions or investigations involving, the FSB.
 
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https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/OFAC-Enforcement/Pages/20170202_33.aspx

 
This is our new "friend":

A prominent Russian opposition activist has been hospitalised with organ failure, two years after he almost died of suspected poisoning.
Journalist Vladimir Kara-Murza, who works for pro-democracy group Open Russia, fell ill at about 05:00 local time (02:00 GMT).
Mr Kara-Murza's wife told the BBC she was on her way to hospital where her husband is in a medically-induced coma.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38844292

 
Henry Ford said:
I'm not convinced this means what you think it means.
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Granted all it means they can do business with the FSB, not that they will, but I'm sure this is just the first step of many.  Put these "minor" OFAC statements out and pretty soon the core of whatever sanctions you have in place is rotted out.  

 
When any encryption is provided in electronics in Russia (phones, computers, etc. included), I think the FSB has to be provided with an application to have it licensed for use in Russia.  I don't know what all is involved in that, but I think this publication authorizes American companies to (if they get permission from the U.S. government) provide the information necessary to the FSB in order to sell their electronics to Russia.

 
It's not like we have general sanctions against Russia - they're still a big trade partner.  But I don't think we can sell new personal computing/electronics that have any encryption at all in Russia without this.

 
Henry Ford said:
It's not like we have general sanctions against Russia - they're still a big trade partner.  But I don't think we can sell new personal computing/electronics that have any encryption at all in Russia without this.
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Apple sells the iPhone there already.  

 
Henry Ford said:
When any encryption is provided in electronics in Russia (phones, computers, etc. included), I think the FSB has to be provided with an application to have it licensed for use in Russia.  I don't know what all is involved in that, but I think this publication authorizes American companies to (if they get permission from the U.S. government) provide the information necessary to the FSB in order to sell their electronics to Russia.
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did they not have authorization before, and why?

 
moleculo said:
did they not have authorization before, and why?
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Because we imposed a sanction in April, 2015 that interfered with American companies' ability to do this.  I remember reading about this at the time and thinking what a strange unintended consequence it was.

 
Don't get me wrong, I do think he's going to try to drop the sanctions, but I think this is an attempt to address a trade deficit with Russia that can be partially fixed with an order like this.

 
Sammy3469 said:
Not a puppet...he removes the sanctions on the FSB.  Just breathtaking. 

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/OFAC-Enforcement/Pages/20170202_33.aspx
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So our president spoke with Putin and this happens.

Supposedly sanctions were not discussed.... because it was NOT included in the call sheet. I'm going to go ahead and say our WH lied to us the people.

But this specific sanction looks like we are dropping prohibition of licensing/use of US technology products to the FSB - am I reading this wrong? So we're basically assisting the FSB in foreign cyber warfare and domestic espionage, right?

Happy to read/hear any analyses on what these sanctions are but at first blush it looks like we are doing the FSB specifically a big favor.

 
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Sammy3469 said:
I get all that, but why we want to let the FSB sign off on encrypted technology right now should be a non-starter.  Sanctions were there for a reason and while Apple may get hurt, they were put in place for a reason.   
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This isn't cyber-command sending the code for Stuxnet over.  They're phones, laptops, tablets, etc.  The government of that country has to license that kind of technology, which is a reasonable way to do it.  If you want to cut off all electronic trade with Russia, I guess that's a position, but I don't know anyone who would support that unless we're going to war with them.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I'd really like to know why he thinks it was an 'unintended consequence' since blocking the FSB from doing exactly what was described seems like a very natural aim of the US gov trying to punish the FSB and also blunt its domestic and foreign capabilities.
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This doesn't punish the FSB, it punishes American companies.

 
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