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The Russia Investigation: Mueller - "Over the course of my career, I've seen a number of challenges to our democracy.The Russian govt's effort to interfere in our election is among the most serious."

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Note, this is an old article, but needless to say it's interesting in context and in retrospect:
 

Quote

Fri Mar 9, 2012

FBI looking at Murdoch operations in Russia

An FBI investigation into possible criminal violations by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp of a U.S. law banning bribery of foreign officials has expanded to include an examination of the activities of former company holdings in Russia, according to a source close to the investigation.

...

- I think this is interesting for a couple reasons.

- Congress' recent, odd, out of the blue act repealing a law which criminalized foreign bribery.

- Putin's current girlfriend is Rupert Murdoch's former girlfriend, and she in turn is great pals with Ivanka Trump (who in turns advertises such on Russian social media apps).

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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1 minute ago, Sabertooth said:

Of course he did.  

Trump supporters simply don't care.  

Yeah, about that. I've gone back to not caring what deranged, delusion, idiot, anti-Americans think anymore.  Trump picked off quite a few well-meaning folks who didn't want Hillary.  They're mortified now.  But, his base should be go back to being on /ignore.

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22 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

Trump and the higher-ups in his administration have said and done crazier, dumber, more cable news outrage-ready things. But this story is by far the biggest one since he won the election in November. 

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NYT has it too.

- Violation of law mentioned.

- The administration has flat out lied about how many times Flynn & the MFA spoke, when they spoke, and what they talked about.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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54 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

- They spoke by text, phone and in person? And 'Intelligence reports, intercepted communications and diplomatic cables..." and NYT mentions transcripts. 

- Like nepotism laws and emoluments clause, the Logan Act is an old prohibition that has never really had to have been enforced before, but coming from the years just after Benedict Arnold it's easy to understand why it was created.

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1 minute ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

- They spoke by text, phone and in person? And 'Intelligence reports, intercepted communications and diplomatic cables..." and NYT mentions transcripts. 

- Like nepotism laws and emoluments clause, the Logan Act is an old prohibition that has never really had to have been enforced before, but coming from the years just after Benedict Arnold it's easy to understand why it was created.

I can't imagine they'll pull out that old chestnut.  But I'm also kinda wondering if this maybe could be straight up treason.

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OK, this is IMO the most serious news to come out of this administration so far. Democrats (and McCain and Graham) need to demand that Flynn be fired, right now, and a Senate hearing. Put the Republicans on the spot.

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On Thursday, Flynn, through his spokesman, backed away from the denial. The spokesman said Flynn “indicated that while he had no recollection of discussing sanctions, he couldn’t be certain that the topic never came up.”

- Oh.

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10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

OK, this is IMO the most serious news to come out of this administration so far. Democrats (and McCain and Graham) need to demand that Flynn be fired, right now, and a Senate hearing. Put the Republicans on the spot.

Oh you think so, professor?

;)

 

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32 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

I can't imagine they'll pull out that old chestnut.  But I'm also kinda wondering if this maybe could be straight up treason.

Oh I don't know....

Quote

General Washington demanded effective counterintelligence work from his subordinates. On March 24, 1776, for example, he wrote: "There is one evil I dread, and that is, their spies. I could wish, therefore, the most attentive watch be kept... I wish a dozen or more of honest, sensible and diligent men, were employed... in order to question, cross-question etc., all such persons as are unknown, and cannot give an account of themselves in a straight and satisfactory line.... I think it a matter of importance to prevent them from obtaining intelligence of our situation." Washington occasionally had to deal with rogue intelligence officers in his own ranks who used their positions for personal gain or undertook unauthorized or illegal operations that might have compromised parts of his intelligence apparatus. Once Washington discovered that two of his agents who supposedly were collecting intelligence on Long Island actually were "mere plundering parties." He set up a special team to investigate and arrest the renegade operatives.

- eta - Yeah treason seems relevant.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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Sort of serious question...why has Trump either not heard the tapes/seen the transcripts and/or not fired him?  At this point Trump/Pence are either complicit or don't care (probably both).

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13 minutes ago, Sammy3469 said:

Sort of serious question...why has Trump either not heard the tapes/seen the transcripts and/or not fired him?  At this point Trump/Pence are either complicit or don't care (probably both).

Serious consideration--in fact, the only consideration imo--is that they not only knew about this, but directed it.  This whole business about Pence not being told about this is just temporary cover for if/when Flynn gets in deep #### over this.  Not clear the republicans have the intestinal fortitude to go against DJT in an effort to whack this guy, but if they do, Flynn has to be the terminal point of the investigation--it cannot radiate any further or else...Pandora's Box.

In regard to knowledge of the tapes/transcripts, it's hard to say at this point what they knew and when they knew they existed, but we all know hubris is a helluva drug.  It's possible they figured the tapes would never leak and/or it wouldn't matter.  Remains to be seen if the latter holds.

Edited by cobalt_27

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I'm telling you they are going to get their supreme court nomination and their tax cuts and then gut this dude like a fish. 

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3 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

Trump and the higher-ups in his administration have said and done crazier, dumber, more cable news outrage-ready things. But this story is by far the biggest one since he won the election in November. 

Trump's ties to Russia should be the No. 1 story every single day until we find out definitively what those ties are and to what extent they operate. Instead we get Conway, Ivanka and all the other BS Trump throws at us on a daily basis. But in my opinion, nothing poses a greater threat to our country than Trump's ties to Putin and Russia.  

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5 minutes ago, Jackstraw said:

I'm telling you they are going to get their supreme court nomination and their tax cuts and then gut this dude like a fish. 

I know a lot of conservatives who held their nose and voted for The Donald who would be all for this tactic. 

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Just now, packersfan said:

Trump's ties to Russia should be the No. 1 story every single day until we find out definitively what those ties are and to what extent they operate. Instead we get Conway, Ivanka and all the other BS Trump throws at us on a daily basis. But in my opinion, nothing poses a greater threat to our country than Trump's ties to Putin and Russia.  

I think teeth are sinking in to this.  Give it time.  I think everyone from reporters to congressional members to the FBI/CIA and others have this squarely on the radar.  It is complicated, vigorously defended, and potential napalm for everyone involved.  But, that we have come this far so soon is reason for optimism (and despair) that more--much more--is forthcoming.

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Just now, cobalt_27 said:

I think teeth are sinking in to this.  Give it time.  I think everyone from reporters to congressional members to the FBI/CIA and others have this squarely on the radar.  It is complicated, vigorously defended, and potential napalm for everyone involved.  But, that we have come this far so soon is reason for optimism (and despair) that more--much more--is forthcoming.

I hope so. It's obvious there are issues here. If there weren't Trump would release his tax records and make a big show of how innocent he is. 

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3 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

I think teeth are sinking in to this.  Give it time.  I think everyone from reporters to congressional members to the FBI/CIA and others have this squarely on the radar.  It is complicated, vigorously defended, and potential napalm for everyone involved.  But, that we have come this far so soon is reason for optimism (and despair) that more--much more--is forthcoming.

If this were any other politician, I'd be shocked that Flynn is still employed. 

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21 minutes ago, Sammy3469 said:

If this were any other politician, I'd be shocked that Flynn is still employed. 

Which tells you all you need to know about who coordinated the meeting.  Hint:  It's not Flynn.

Edited by cobalt_27

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21 minutes ago, Sammy3469 said:

If this were any other politician, I'd be shocked that Flynn is still employed. 

If this was any other administration Flynn never would've gotten the position he has. 

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2 hours ago, Sammy3469 said:

Sort of serious question...why has Trump either not heard the tapes/seen the transcripts and/or not fired him?  At this point Trump/Pence are either complicit or don't care (probably both).

IMO there is a tight, tight circle around Trump.

It's just speculation on my part but I think Pence, Preibus & Spicer and others are being sent out to lie with false information.

Trump I think is in on the skullduggery and enjoys the weird secret control over message and policy. Now at some point the GOPe types have to make a stand about Flynn at least or else they end up on the KAC scrapheap of dirty rotten scoundrels who cannot be believed about anything.

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15 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

IMO there is a tight, tight circle around Trump.

It's just speculation on my part but I think Pence, Preibus & Spicer and others are being sent out to lie with false information.

Trump I think is in on the skullduggery and enjoys the weird secret control over message and policy. Now at some point the GOPe types have to make a stand about Flynn at least or else they end up on the KAC scrapheap of dirty rotten scoundrels who cannot be believed about anything.

I wouldn't call it speculation. We know for a fact Spicer has lied. Numerous times.

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6 minutes ago, packersfan said:

I wouldn't call it speculation. We know for a fact Spicer has lied. Numerous times.

Right, point is Flynn and Trump lie to Spicer who just swallows that whole then proceeds to vomit it out to the public without questioning.

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25 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

IMO there is a tight, tight circle around Trump.

It's just speculation on my part but I think Pence, Preibus & Spicer and others are being sent out to lie with false information.

Trump I think is in on the skullduggery and enjoys the weird secret control over message and policy. Now at some point the GOPe types have to make a stand about Flynn at least or else they end up on the KAC scrapheap of dirty rotten scoundrels who cannot be believed about anything.

Look, let's deal with reality a second.  The idea that Flynn acted alone, rogue, free-lancing to discuss rolling back sanctions is just...it's entirely non-credible.  It makes no sense and to buy this argument is beyond stupid.  

So, what are we left with?  Either (a) the reporting is inaccurate and no official documentation of any sanctions discussions exists or...(b) Trump ordered it.  Is there another possibility for the sake of the intellectual excercise we could even consider?

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2 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

Look, let's deal with reality a second.  The idea that Flynn acted alone, rogue, free-lancing to discuss rolling back sanctions is just...it's entirely non-credible.  It makes no sense and to buy this argument is beyond stupid.  

So, what are we left with?  Either (a) the reporting is inaccurate and no official documentation of any sanctions discussions exists or...(b) Trump ordered it.  Is there another possibility for the sake of the intellectual excercise we could even consider?

Even money odds says this is the argument Trump presents and the one major Republicans go along with.

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56 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

Look, let's deal with reality a second.  The idea that Flynn acted alone, rogue, free-lancing to discuss rolling back sanctions is just...it's entirely non-credible.  It makes no sense and to buy this argument is beyond stupid.  

So, what are we left with?  Either (a) the reporting is inaccurate and no official documentation of any sanctions discussions exists or...(b) Trump ordered it.  Is there another possibility for the sake of the intellectual exercise we could even consider?

I wouldn't say alone.

Flynn, Trump, Bannon, Miller, and the other inner Trumperians. Who btw I believe don't trust the Party types. I do think this could be done very covertly.

On (a), the reporting says that documentation does exist. I see zero reason to discount that.

On (b), ordered, schmordered, who knows who is driving what, hence the needs for a public investigation.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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The Trump administration is trying to figure out how to handle this so that it appears there is no problem.

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The relative silence on this from the White House suggests that they are going to see if this blows over by Monday.

Given that Trump could do any number of news/cringe-worthy things between now and Monday, I'd say its even money that Flynn survives...

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CNN reporting they have independently corroborated elements of Steele's dossier.   Developing.

 

Edited by cobalt_27
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Just now, cobalt_27 said:

CNN reporting they have confirmed elements of Steele's dossier.   Developing.

:popcorn: Hopefully it's the golden showers.

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4 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

CNN reporting they have independently corroborated elements of Steele's dossier.   Developing.

 

Well this is going to be interesting.  

There's still tons of smoke on this issue, there's just a lot of other smoke and some fires elsewhere in government at this time.

With Flynn though, the two are converging.  Could make for some serious problems for Trump.

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2 minutes ago, adonis said:

Well this is going to be interesting.  

There's still tons of smoke on this issue, there's just a lot of other smoke and some fires elsewhere in government at this time.

With Flynn though, the two are converging.  Could make for some serious problems for Trump.

It will. It's inconceivable these parts aren't all connected.  Just going to take time for law enforcement and reporting to tie them all together succinctly and incontrovertibly.  

Bottom line, none of this is sustainable. His administration is rotting from the inside, while facing extraordinary scrutiny from the outside.

Edited by cobalt_27

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6 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:
9 minutes ago, adonis said:

Well this is going to be interesting.  

There's still tons of smoke on this issue, there's just a lot of other smoke and some fires elsewhere in government at this time.

With Flynn though, the two are converging.  Could make for some serious problems for Trump.

It will. It's inconceivable these parts aren't all connected.  Just going to take time for law enforcement and reporting to tie them all together succinctly and incontrovertibly.  

Bottom line, none of this is sustainable. His administration is rotting from the inside, while facing extraordinary scrutiny from the outside.

And the man isn't very stable or rational in the calmest of times.

But he's a gambler, and he's had some massive good fortune when he's needed it the most.  The Comey letter, for one, was like drawing an inside straight on the river, up against 3 of a kind aces.

I won't bet against him drawing some favorable hand for himself in the next few days, either supplied at the cost of humanity, or due to hostile actions of foreign leaders, but this is the time he will be scraping to get something big...and for someone in his position, with his reactiveness, with his lack of control - that's truly concerning.

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Reached for comment this afternoon, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said, "We continue to be disgusted by CNN's fake news reporting."

- Two ways to read this, Spicy.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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44 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

CNN reporting they have independently corroborated elements of Steele's dossier.   Developing.

Donnie's getting pelted right now.

Quote

Rather it relates to conversations between foreign nationals. The dossier details about a dozen conversations between senior Russian officials and other Russian individuals.

Yeah. Cohen, Page, I'm sure.

Quote

None of the newly learned information relates to the salacious allegations in the dossier.

Yaknow, nobody cares, except Trump. Maybe these things are in there because only he would know they were real or not.

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Jeez, the IC is really slow playing this in an attempt to give Trump an out (my guess is they think for the good of the country).  It remains to be seen if Trump takes it, but the longer Flynn remains in the White House, the more will come out.

I'm equally stupefied that Trump said he didn't see the WP article on the Flynn calls.  No one in his administration has the courage to tell him (and I guess that would only be Kushner anyway).  Flynn's done, it's just a matter of if he slides off into the night or if Trump makes a spectacle of it.

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I bet its a test to see if Donnie actually executes Snowden - a gang initiation ritual....

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Maddow is saying right this minute what everyone is thinking.  "Is part of the reason we got this new president not just because some foreign government tried to make that happen...is part of the reason we got this new president because his campaign worked with a foreign government to influence our election to make that outcome happen?"

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"Here, Donnie boy. Use my Makarov. And look him in zee eye when you do it."

Edited by Plorfu

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Just now, cobalt_27 said:

Maddow is saying right this minute what everyone is thinking.  "Is part of the reason we got this new president not just because some foreign government tried to make that happen...is part of the reason we got this new president because his campaign worked with a foreign government to influence our election to make that outcome happen?"

Then the question becomes - how much of this was Trump aware of? 

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4 minutes ago, packersfan said:

Then the question becomes - how much of this was Trump aware of? 

Adam Schiff was just on and said explicitly that Trump's interference is one of the allegations they are currently investigating and, if that is established, and I'm paraphrasing, stepping down would be the least of his worries.

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4 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

Adam Schiff was just on and said explicitly that Trump's interference is one of the allegations they are currently investigating and, if that is established, and I'm paraphrasing, stepping down would be the least of his worries.

I'll defer to others who are more well-versed in the subject but if there is a proven connection between Trump and the Russians about the election I don't see how there isn't an impeachment. That sure sounds a helluva lot worse than what Nixon did and God knows it's light years more devastating than Clinton getting a hummer in the Oval Office. 

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10 minutes ago, packersfan said:

I'll defer to others who are more well-versed in the subject but if there is a proven connection between Trump and the Russians about the election I don't see how there isn't an impeachment. That sure sounds a helluva lot worse than what Nixon did and God knows it's light years more devastating than Clinton getting a hummer in the Oval Office. 

Yup.  Long way to get there, but the circumstantial evidence is certainly damning and, if true, would absolutely be more extraordinary than Nixon (and of course Clinton).  

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