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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (8 Viewers)

No...these guys told me they are independent and they don't support Trump but they are independent and will still criticize Barry and liberals and not say a word about Trump...but remember they are supposedly independent. Neat group we have forming.  
When that pesky conscience gets all loud and uppity, go with the self-delusion. I guess it's better than supporting him unabashedly because you're a bigot.

 
Bozeman Bruiser said:
Nobody with a lick of intelligence thought Flynn pleading guilty to a process crime completely unrelated to the election was going to have an impact on Trump.
Wow.

Another someone that doesn't understand why he pled guilty to a lesser charge.

Amazing.

 
I realize that it may not be true, but assuming that Dowd did write that tweet, in what world would an attorney think that having his client tweet about the matter at hand would be advisable?
Seems like now, not only did he write it but someone else posted it on Donald's behalf and without his knowledge.

 
The Secret Barrister‏ @BarristerSecret 13h13 hours ago

As a lawyer, I can confirm that I frequently compose tweets confessing to crimes and send them from my clients’ twitter accounts. It’s the first thing you learn at law school.
Law school has changed.  We had to learn to do that by ham radio. 

 
I wonder what the ethical considerations are for impersonating your client for the sole purpose of making your client appear to admit to a criminal act?

 
That's what you chose to pick out of that post?   I mean the View would represent a liberal women response if he were looking for one. 
I found it humorous that it went from "everyone in here was frothing at the mouth" to "Well maybe not  that but on The View one of the gals read the story and there was hysteria in the audience."

But you're right: there was a lot of other absolute rubbish in the post, too.

 
I wonder what the ethical considerations are for impersonating your client for the sole purpose of making your client appear to admit to a criminal act?
I will employ for the purpose of maintaining the causes confided to me such means only as are consistent with truth and honor unless it’s to say I wrote a tweet that makes the President more likely to have committed obstruction of justice. 

 
I am curious why Trump has not already pardoned Flynn for lying to the FBI - about something that was legal and legit.  Thats seems easier to pardon than a Sheriff accused of violating civil rights.  It could have been done by Friday afternoon - then no need to fret over poor General Flynn being treated unfairly...
President can't pardon Flynn for state charges which apparently would be significant in New York. 

 
President can't pardon Flynn for state charges which apparently would be significant in New York. 
I did not realize that Flynn was charged with state crimes, nor that lying to the FBI was a state crime, nor that, as Trump put it: "So General Flynn lies to the FBI and his life is destroyed" was somehow the state of New York destroying his life...

So, why not pardon him for lying to the FBI?  Seems rather simple...

 
I did not realize that Flynn was charged with state crimes, nor that lying to the FBI was a state crime, nor that, as Trump put it: "So General Flynn lies to the FBI and his life is destroyed" was somehow the state of New York destroying his life...

So, why not pardon him for lying to the FBI?  Seems rather simple...
While he is not currently charged with any state crimes, Mueller may holding aside some federal charges (to avoid double jeopardy) that the state prosecutors might use if Trump does pardon Flynn for lying to the FBI.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/12/robert_mueller_s_deal_with_michael_flynn_neutralizes_trump_s_pardon_power.html

Robert Mueller Has a Plan

How the special counsel’s deal with Michael Flynn neutralizes Trump’s pardon power.

[...]

Mueller’s charges and Flynn’s plea still leave open the possibility of state charges, just in case Trump pardons Flynn federally. Presidential pardons apply only to federal crimes. I’ve written before about how Mueller’s prosecutorial strategy required him to navigate complicated state-level double jeopardy rules. His charges against Paul Manafort, Rick Gates, and George Papadopoulos reflected a sharp strategy to bring certain charges, while leaving plenty of others available to state prosecutors. (I’ve provided a long list of state crimes that relate to Trump-Russia allegations.)

Let me spell out how this strategy would apply to Flynn. The former national security adviser has pleaded guilty to one charge of making a false statement to the FBI. What are the other charges a state prosecutor could bring?

In early November, the Wall Street Journal reported that Flynn and his son Michael Flynn Jr. allegedly discussed a scheme in which they would receive up to $15 million for taking part in an extradition scheme and an extralegal “rendition” of cleric Fethullah Gülen, an opponent of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. These allegations could be grounds for charges of bribery and conspiracy to kidnap (as well as conspiracy to assault and perhaps other violent crimes).

The state of Pennsylvania, where Gülen resides, offers extra protections against double jeopardy beyond the rights guaranteed by the federal Fifth Amendment. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court holds that “a subsequent prosecution and imposition of punishment for the same offense will not be permitted unless the Commonwealth’s interests are substantially different from the interests of the jurisdiction that initially prosecuted and imposed punishment.” Given that, Flynn’s federal deal—which does not include any charges related to the alleged Gülen incident—preserves a number of criminal charges relating to kidnapping, assault, and bribery in Pennsylvania, as well as parallel charges in New York and possibly Virginia. State tax fraud may also be in this mix.

 
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I am curious why Trump has not already pardoned Flynn for lying to the FBI - about something that was legal and legit.  Thats seems easier to pardon than a Sheriff accused of violating civil rights.  It could have been done by Friday afternoon - then no need to fret over poor General Flynn being treated unfairly...
Um...

 
Can a federal prosecutor file or "hold aside" state charges?
It depends what you mean. The feds technically have no power over how the state charges are handled. But that's not how it works in real life. There's generally some level of cooperation or at least communication between the two. While you can be charged for the exact same crime in federal and state courts, you won't be.

This is not a typical investigation. It's already leaked that Mueller's team has worked with the AG in NY. Flynn's plea, which requires him to cooperate with state and local authorities, also points to that cooperation.

So the answer is no, but yes.

 
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It depends what you mean. The feds technically have no power over how the state charges are handled. But that's not how it works in real life. There's generally some level of cooperation or at least communication between the two. While you can be charged for the exact same crime in federal and state courts, you won't be.

This is not a typical investigation. It's already leaked that Mueller's team has worked with the AG in NY. Flynn's plea, which requires him to cooperate with state and local authorities, also points to that cooperation.

So the answer is no, but yes.
FYP

 
Again - lets keep this simple.

Trump says: "So General Flynn lies to the FBI and his life is destroyed"

If this is in fact Trump speaking, he has the power to protect General Flynn from the sin of lying to the FBI.  There are no state charges that could be brought for lying to the FBI.  Mueller is not authorized to bring any state charges at all - let alone for conduct arising from the crime of lying to the FBI.

So - if Trump were truly concerned that Flynn's life was destroyed - he could, with the stroke of a pen, fix that problem.

 
I did not realize that Flynn was charged with state crimes, nor that lying to the FBI was a state crime, nor that, as Trump put it: "So General Flynn lies to the FBI and his life is destroyed" was somehow the state of New York destroying his life...

So, why not pardon him for lying to the FBI?  Seems rather simple...
His plea deal has language in it that says Flynn has to cooperate and/or testify in state and local court at Mueller's discretion.  And it's likely Flynn understands the jeopardy he faces there.  It's well done by the Feds IMO.

A pardon likely doesn't help Trump, or Flynn.

 
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His plea deal has language in it that says Flynn has to cooperate and/or testify in state and local court at Mueller's discretion.  And it's likely Flynn understands the jeopardy he faces there.  It's well done by the Feds IMO.
Yes - but that's not what Trump said - which is what precipitated this chain of posts...

 
Yes - but that's not what Trump said - which is what precipitated this chain of posts...
Yeah, we all get what you're saying and the point you're trying to make. If Trump was the one making this decision or Trump and the people who made the decisions in his campaign, he might have followed the logic that you are. Flynn might have already been pardoned if Trump were on his own on this. The problem is his lawyers know better.

 
Yeah, we all get what you're saying and the point you're trying to make. If Trump was the one making this decision or Trump and the people who made the decisions in his campaign, he might have followed the logic that you are. Flynn might have already been pardoned if Trump were on his own on this. The problem is his lawyers know better.
Are we talking about the same lawyer that tweeted out that Trump knew Flynn lied to the FBI when he asked Comey to let it go?  That lawyer?

 
Yeah, we all get what you're saying and the point you're trying to make. If Trump was the one making this decision or Trump and the people who made the decisions in his campaign, he might have followed the logic that you are. Flynn might have already been pardoned if Trump were on his own on this. The problem is his lawyers know better.
And - there is a different point here.  Trump is smart enough not to pardon Flynn here.  He does not need the Keystone Lawyers.   Trump is not pardoning Flynn, because he knows the issues run far deeper than "lying to the FBI".  Yet, Trump, and many of his supporters will claim that Flynn's life is "ruined" because of an innocuous little lie - while ignoring that if that was the only threat to Flynn's "life" that Trump could erase that faster than he could eat a BigMac meal. 

 
Seth Abramson‏Verified account @SethAbramson

FollowFollow @SethAbramson

2/ The John Dowd Situation, in three easy steps:

(1) If Dowd used Trump's feed to confess to Obstruction without telling Trump, he must be disbarred.
(2) If Trump saw but didn't stop/erase the tweet, he's culpable for it.
(3) If Dowd lied, he *and* Trump committed Obstruction.


Now, its not quite that simple, but, Dowd should be nervous about his own culpability here, with the bar, if nothing else, by falling on the sword for Trump.

 
And - there is a different point here.  Trump is smart enough not to pardon Flynn here.  He does not need the Keystone Lawyers.   Trump is not pardoning Flynn, because he knows the issues run far deeper than "lying to the FBI".  Yet, Trump, and many of his supporters will claim that Flynn's life is "ruined" because of an innocuous little lie - while ignoring that if that was the only threat to Flynn's "life" that Trump could erase that faster than he could eat a BigMac meal. 
There’s no doubt a lot of thought went into what Mueller had him plea to both in terms of consequences if he reneged (60 years in prison), what he was charged with, the fact he didn’t make a plea deal with his son, and where it leaves Trump vis a vis a pardon.  

 
Now, its not quite that simple, but, Dowd should be nervous about his own culpability here, with the bar, if nothing else, by falling on the sword for Trump.
One interesting point is that Mueller has already gotten the attorney-client privilege waived for one of Manafort’s lawyers since he has knowledge of the crime.  Dowd may have just opened himself up similarly if Trump gets questioned or charged.

 
Speaking of that tweet, Trump's team claims that lawyer wrote it and social media guy posted it without Trump knowing. In my reading of that statement, it's meant to keep the tweet from being admissible as an opposing party statement. Essentially, that means that in a criminal case, the government can use any statement that the defendant made.

However, rule 801(d)(2)(b) might be important. That allows statement that a defendant has "manifested that it adopted or believed to be true." I think by leaving the tweet up on his own account after he knows about it is "adopting" it under the rule.

I've never dealt with twitter, but search warrants and subpoenas can sometimes pinpoint information on facebook and instagram. I bet Mueller and his team are working on nailing down the source of the tweet.

 
I think this Twitter thing is fun, but will end up being such incredibly small potatoes in the end (even wrt Obstruction) that it's not important.  Like tearing the mattress tags off after you've murdered someone.

 
Speaking of that tweet, Trump's team claims that lawyer wrote it and social media guy posted it without Trump knowing. In my reading of that statement, it's meant to keep the tweet from being admissible as an opposing party statement. Essentially, that means that in a criminal case, the government can use any statement that the defendant made.
His supporters who blindly believe him are idiots.

The other 70% of the country doesn't buy this bull####.

 
Speaking of that tweet, Trump's team claims that lawyer wrote it and social media guy posted it without Trump knowing. In my reading of that statement, it's meant to keep the tweet from being admissible as an opposing party statement. Essentially, that means that in a criminal case, the government can use any statement that the defendant made.

However, rule 801(d)(2)(b) might be important. That allows statement that a defendant has "manifested that it adopted or believed to be true." I think by leaving the tweet up on his own account after he knows about it is "adopting" it under the rule.

I've never dealt with twitter, but search warrants and subpoenas can sometimes pinpoint information on facebook and instagram. I bet Mueller and his team are working on nailing down the source of the tweet.
But isn't Trump asking Comey to lay off Flynn (which Trump denies) a key component of the obstruction charge? 

It's hard to get too excited about this stuff knowing the POS tea party types in congress will find any shred of BS to vote no on impeachment.

 
GoBirds said:
Honestly I don't have faith in any of them and trying to rank them on how terrible each one is would be a painful routine. ABC is supposed to be our unbiased mainstream media then of course you have the Fox/MSNBC extremes. Frustrating we can't rely on anyone to accurately report news and not push agenda.

They all suck......but the good news is the Eagles are awesome. See you in the "good news" thread. :hifive:
I've placed a curse on the Eagles - your 2018 demise will come with great pain. If you reply, the curse will double.

 

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