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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (6 Viewers)

Plorfu said:
Mueller Probes an Event With Nunes, Flynn, and Foreign Officials at Trump’s D.C. Hotel

The breakfast has come under scrutiny by federal prosecutors in Manhattan as part of their probe into whether the Trump inaugural committee misspent funds and if donors tried to buy influence in the White House. The existence of that probe was first reported by the Wall Street Journal. The Special Counsel’s Office is also looking at the breakfast as part of its investigation into whether foreigners contributed money to the Trump inaugural fund and PAC by possibly using American intermediaries, as first reported by The New York Times. Robert Mueller’s team has asked Flynn about the event, according to two sources familiar with the Special Counsel’s Office questioning.
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The Special Counsel’s Office and federal prosecutors in Manhattan are scrutinizing a meeting involving former House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes, one-time National Security Adviser Michael Flynn, and dozens of foreign officials, according to three sources familiar with the investigations.

The breakfast event, which was first reported by The Daily Sabah, a pro-government Turkish paper, took place at 8:30 a.m. at the Trump International Hotel in Washington, D.C. on Jan. 18, 2017—days before President Donald Trump’s inauguration. About 60 people were invited, including diplomats from governments around the world, according to those same sources.
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I think this old post by Mr. Ham ties in actually.

 
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Noticed the idle chatter about me being a Russian asset.  'Has anyone met him?'  'We need an ip check on him, seriously'.  I mean, I think this is stupid.  I've always thought it was stupid.  I knew it was stupid the minute they started trying to make it a thing.  I'm not talking about the unrelated crimes or paying off porn stars crap.  I'm talking about the international conspiracy to install a Manchurian candidate as President of the United States with emails and memes.  

You have to decouple the idea that believing peace with Russia is a smart, diplomatic gesture in the interest of world peace, from the insinuation that it makes someone a "Russian agent" or a "Putin bot" or a "useful idiot".  It is not the same thing.  It ain't.  To be honest, I'm still shocked that people slipped so comfortably into using language like that.  These insults should have died the first time people realized McCarthyism is bad.

It might not look like it right now, but I think this has been driven mostly by propaganda.  It's a real testament to how people can be manipulated by their TV screens.  How repeating something enough times makes it true.  It's how people frame their opposition to Trump.  

Down the road, years from now, people will reflect on this and study it in journalism schools.  They'll wonder why they couldn't see it for what it actually was.  They'll wonder how they could ever let the neocons assert themselves again.  They'll wonder how the US drifted into a nuclear arms race with Russia.  They'll wonder why Trump won again.  But most of all, they'll wonder how it dominated the corporate media landscape above all else for so long.  Given enough time, I think some here will see it too.  But it'll probably be a while.  

 
ren hoek said:
Noticed the idle chatter about me being a Russian asset.  'Has anyone met him?'  'We need an ip check on him, seriously'.  I mean, I think this is stupid.  I've always thought it was stupid.  I knew it was stupid the minute they started trying to make it a thing.  I'm not talking about the unrelated crimes or paying off porn stars crap.  I'm talking about the international conspiracy to install a Manchurian candidate as President of the United States with emails and memes.  

You have to decouple the idea that believing peace with Russia is a smart, diplomatic gesture in the interest of world peace, from the insinuation that it makes someone a "Russian agent" or a "Putin bot" or a "useful idiot".  It is not the same thing.  It ain't.  To be honest, I'm still shocked that people slipped so comfortably into using language like that.  These insults should have died the first time people realized McCarthyism is bad.

It might not look like it right now, but I think this has been driven mostly by propaganda.  It's a real testament to how people can be manipulated by their TV screens.  How repeating something enough times makes it true.  It's how people frame their opposition to Trump.  

Down the road, years from now, people will reflect on this and study it in journalism schools.  They'll wonder why they couldn't see it for what it actually was.  They'll wonder how they could ever let the neocons assert themselves again.  They'll wonder how the US drifted into a nuclear arms race with Russia.  They'll wonder why Trump won again.  But most of all, they'll wonder how it dominated the corporate media landscape above all else for so long.  Given enough time, I think some here will see it too.  But it'll probably be a while.  
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Manafort was literally conspiring with a former GRU officer.  His own lawyer admitted to providing polling data in a legal filing. 

 
The Z Machine said:
Do I have to answer to one of he/she wants to ask me questions? I guess I could just plead the 5th any time a L.E.O. ask me anything...  But it might end up with me in the clink for no reason other than my intransigence.

Is the president above the law?
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In Russia.....

 
 Call me naive, but I really do believe that if Trump attempted to withdraw from NATO that would be the breaking point with Republicans in Congress. The base might stay with him, but I think GOP senators would vote to remove him. 

 
timschochet said:
 Call me naive, but I really do believe that if Trump attempted to withdraw from NATO that would be the breaking point with Republicans in Congress. The base might stay with him, but I think GOP senators would vote to remove him. 
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They are all mortified of Fox News and of Trump's base. I'm convinced there is absolutely nothing that would ever make any of them become ethical again and have morals.

 
ren hoek said:
Noticed the idle chatter about me being a Russian asset.  'Has anyone met him?'  'We need an ip check on him, seriously'.  I mean, I think this is stupid.  I've always thought it was stupid.  I knew it was stupid the minute they started trying to make it a thing.  I'm not talking about the unrelated crimes or paying off porn stars crap.  I'm talking about the international conspiracy to install a Manchurian candidate as President of the United States with emails and memes.  

You have to decouple the idea that believing peace with Russia is a smart, diplomatic gesture in the interest of world peace, from the insinuation that it makes someone a "Russian agent" or a "Putin bot" or a "useful idiot".  It is not the same thing.  It ain't.  To be honest, I'm still shocked that people slipped so comfortably into using language like that.  These insults should have died the first time people realized McCarthyism is bad.

It might not look like it right now, but I think this has been driven mostly by propaganda.  It's a real testament to how people can be manipulated by their TV screens.  How repeating something enough times makes it true.  It's how people frame their opposition to Trump.  

Down the road, years from now, people will reflect on this and study it in journalism schools.  They'll wonder why they couldn't see it for what it actually was.  They'll wonder how they could ever let the neocons assert themselves again.  They'll wonder how the US drifted into a nuclear arms race with Russia.  They'll wonder why Trump won again.  But most of all, they'll wonder how it dominated the corporate media landscape above all else for so long.  Given enough time, I think some here will see it too.  But it'll probably be a while.  
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This would make sense if all Trump did was push peace with Russia and was on the up and up the whole time.  To believe that you have to ignore nearly every fact we know REN.  Propaganda is what seems to drive the narrative you are pushing and Trumpnos pushing.

 
BobbyLayne said:
Periodic reminder:

The FBI briefed Candidate Trump & his campaign officials Russia would try to infiltrate his campaign

Subsequently, Trump officials had 101 known contacts with Russians. They reported none of those contacts to the FBI, and in every instance denied any meetings took place and attempted to conceal those facts.
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This is also why calling him unwitting doesn’t work for me.  He was warmed over and over.  He has been a part of all of it and the coverup/lies about each and every meeting.

 
sho nuff said:
This is also why calling him unwitting doesn’t work for me.  He was warmed over and over.  He has been a part of all of it and the coverup/lies about each and every meeting.
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Being unwitting certainly won't end up being an out for him. But I think we can all agree that he's been a puppet to Putin. I think that Trump was looking at it the way he looks at everything in life...how he can financially profit from the relationship. I highly doubt he set out to team with the enemy and compromise the United States. He's far too dumb to eve figure out how that would work. Putin was/is the genius here. He's pulling all the strings. The term 'unwitting' means that Trump was always in way over head intellectually.

 
Anyone think all this is going on now to force Mueller's report out to the public?  If the admin sits on it they look guilty.

 
Henry Ford said:
Manafort was literally conspiring with a former GRU officer.  His own lawyer admitted to providing polling data in a legal filing. 
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He shared polling data, some of which was publicly available anyway, to a guy that was trained in a Russian military academy, worked over nearly a decade for the International Republican Institute- a US-sponsored 'democracy-spreading' outfit- with the intent for them to be distributed to Ukrainians with whom he'd worked to bring Ukraine into the EU fold.  There is no indication that this had anything to do with receiving help or assistance from a foreign government in the 2016 election.  

This data was from spring of 2016.  What exactly do you figure Ukrainian oligarchs were supposed to do with this polling data, other than (as the NYT suggested) to help Manafort collect debts from the Ukrainian parties he'd assisted?  Hell, what were RUSSIANS supposed to glean from publicly available campaign polling data in the spring of 2016?  Where to target their Yosemite Sam memes 6 months later?  

The kneejerk assumption that Manafort transferring data to this translator and business associate (who, again, had worked with a USAID-funded meddling arm for roughly 10 years) automatically signifies a Russian collusion scheme is haphazard at best.  This is lightyears away from the original allegation of Trump/Russia/Wikileaks collusion and you know it.  

 
ren hoek said:
He shared polling data, some of which was publicly available anyway, to a guy that was trained in a Russian military academy, worked over nearly a decade for the International Republican Institute- a US-sponsored 'democracy-spreading' outfit- with the intent for them to be distributed to Ukrainians with whom he'd worked to bring Ukraine into the EU fold.  There is no indication that this had anything to do with receiving help or assistance from a foreign government in the 2016 election.  

This data was from spring of 2016.  What exactly do you figure Ukrainian oligarchs were supposed to do with this polling data, other than (as the NYT suggested) to help Manafort collect debts from the Ukrainian parties he'd assisted?  Hell, what were RUSSIANS supposed to glean from publicly available campaign polling data in the spring of 2016?  Where to target their Yosemite Sam memes 6 months later?  

The kneejerk assumption that Manafort transferring data to this translator and business associate (who, again, had worked with a USAID-funded meddling arm for roughly 10 years) automatically signifies a Russian collusion scheme is haphazard at best.  This is lightyears away from the original allegation of Trump/Russia/Wikileaks collusion and you know it.  
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Let’s start by seeing if you can see the difference between these two descriptions. 

You consistently shift descriptions of topics within the same post.  It makes it difficult to discuss any of this with you because it’s remarkably disingenuous. 

 
Henry Ford said:
Let’s start by seeing if you can see the difference between these two descriptions. 

You consistently shift descriptions of topics within the same post.  It makes it difficult to discuss any of this with you because it’s remarkably disingenuous. 
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Let's start by actually addressing the substance of the post.  What exactly do you think Ukrainians (or "Russians," if you must) actually did with this spring 2016 polling data?  What evidence is there that they did that?

 
ren hoek said:
He shared polling data, some of which was publicly available anyway, to a guy that was trained in a Russian military academy, worked over nearly a decade for the International Republican Institute- a US-sponsored 'democracy-spreading' outfit- with the intent for them to be distributed to Ukrainians with whom he'd worked to bring Ukraine into the EU fold.  There is no indication that this had anything to do with receiving help or assistance from a foreign government in the 2016 election.  

This data was from spring of 2016.  What exactly do you figure Ukrainian oligarchs were supposed to do with this polling data, other than (as the NYT suggested) to help Manafort collect debts from the Ukrainian parties he'd assisted?  Hell, what were RUSSIANS supposed to glean from publicly available campaign polling data in the spring of 2016?  Where to target their Yosemite Sam memes 6 months later?  

The kneejerk assumption that Manafort transferring data to this translator and business associate (who, again, had worked with a USAID-funded meddling arm for roughly 10 years) automatically signifies a Russian collusion scheme is haphazard at best.  This is lightyears away from the original allegation of Trump/Russia/Wikileaks collusion and you know it.   
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Changing the facts when they don't fit the argument as HF just pointed out. Defining "the original allegation" in the way that best fits your argument even though there was no "original allegation" to begin with. Challenging the usefulness and impact of the cooperation as a means to ignore its existence. Viewing the incident in isolation instead of as a small part of a large pattern of cooperation, deception and shared interests of which there are hundreds of examples over a half-decade.

9/10.  An excellent representation of the genre. All that's missing is a non-hyperlinked link to a random blog nobody else has heard of.

 
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ren hoek said:
Let's start by actually addressing the substance of the post.  What exactly do you think Ukrainians (or "Russians," if you must) actually did with this spring 2016 polling data?  What evidence is there that they did that?
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It doesn't matter what they did with it. That would be irrelevant to whether there was actual collusion or conspiracy and a violation of the law.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Changing the facts when they don't fit the argument as HF just pointed out. Defining "the original allegation" in the way that best fits your argument even though there was no "original allegation" to begin with. Challenging the usefulness and impact of the cooperation as a means to ignore its existence. Viewing the incident in isolation instead of as a small part of a large pattern of cooperation of which there are hundreds of examples over a half-decade.

9/10.  An excellent representation of the genre. All that's missing is a non-hyperlinked link to a random blog nobody else has heard of.
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I didn't change any facts.  Manafort did in fact share publicly available polling data.  The "former GRU officer" that Manafort was "literally conspiring with" did in fact receive publicly available polling data.  That's not the same as saying the only thing they received was publicly available polling data.  I know that they received private polling data.

So Manafort was "literally conspiring" with Kilimnik.  Okay.  What was he "literally conspiring" to do by transmitting this polling data?  Anyone?  Anyone at all?  @Henry Ford?

 
ren hoek said:
I didn't change any facts.  Manafort did in fact share publicly available polling data.  The "former GRU officer" that Manafort was "literally conspiring with" did in fact receive publicly available polling data.  That's not the same as saying the only thing they received was publicly available polling data.  I know that they received private polling data.

So Manafort was "literally conspiring" with Kilimnik.  Okay.  What was he "literally conspiring" to do by transmitting this polling data?  Anyone?  Anyone at all?  @Henry Ford?
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break the law?

 
ren hoek said:
I didn't change any facts.  Manafort did in fact share publicly available polling data.  The "former GRU officer" that Manafort was "literally conspiring with" did in fact receive publicly available polling data.  That's not the same as saying the only thing they received was publicly available polling data.  I know that they received private polling data.

So Manafort was "literally conspiring" with Kilimnik.  Okay.  What was he "literally conspiring" to do by transmitting this polling data?  Anyone?  Anyone at all?  @Henry Ford?
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Didn't you also say he shared private polling data. Polling data is gold. It made Russian bots infinitely more effective at their propaganda. 

 
ren hoek said:
Let's start by actually addressing the substance of the post.  What exactly do you think Ukrainians (or "Russians," if you must) actually did with this spring 2016 polling data?  What evidence is there that they did that?
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Okay. Let's.

1. Manafort is the one who said the data was going to them.  At least one has denied ever receiving it.

2. What do you think that data was for?  How exactly does giving them polling data help him collect money from Ukrainians? 

3. Russian hackers began probing the DNC server on March 15

4. The social media campaign against Clinton by Russians posing as Americans appears to have also begun on March 15.

5. The phishing email that hooked Podesta was sent March 19

6. Manafort asks Kilimnik if joining the Trump campaign can help make Deripaska whole for the money Manafort owes him on April 11 (Why would a simple Ukrainian businessman know what Oleg Deripaska needs to be made whole for that debt?)

7. Ivan Timofeev tells the Trump campaign that Russia is open for cooperation on May 4.

8. Manafort meets with Kilimnik on May 9.

I would say the polling data could do two things, nonexclusively.

1. Demonstrate that Trump is a legitimate candidate who could actually win.  This could be either to show that Manafort will be a valuable asset (and therefore pay off his debts) or to show that Trump would be a valuable asset who is worth helping because it can actually work.

2. Show what is needed to help Trump and what polling shows could push voters in his direction, including where they are in the country.

On May 21, anti-Islam and pro-Islam rallies in Texas were happening, organized by IRA accounts.
On May 25, a protest by "LGBT United" is held in Kansas.  LGBT United is an IRA account.

The Blue Lives Matter protests, "Don't Shoot Us" in Minnesota, Pulse vigil in Florida, etc. all happen not too long after.

So what do you think the polling data was for?

 
Bucky86 said:
Polling data is EVERYTHING to a campaign. It's worth untold millions to major corporations.

Leave it to Ren to simply brush this off as if it's nothing. :lol:  
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goal post shift ENGAGED

Manafort thought so little of this he lied to Mueller repeatedly which ended up blowing up his plea agreement.  Manafort should have Mueller speak to Ren and straighten him out on why this is all no big deal....

 
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ren hoek said:
I didn't change any facts.  Manafort did in fact share publicly available polling data.  The "former GRU officer" that Manafort was "literally conspiring with" did in fact receive publicly available polling data.  That's not the same as saying the only thing they received was publicly available polling data.  I know that they received private polling data.

So Manafort was "literally conspiring" with Kilimnik.  Okay.  What was he "literally conspiring" to do by transmitting this polling data?  Anyone?  Anyone at all?  @Henry Ford?
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I was typing.  

He was literally engaging in a conspiracy to illegally interfere in U.S. elections by a foreign entity.  

 
ren hoek said:
I didn't change any facts.  Manafort did in fact share publicly available polling data.  The "former GRU officer" that Manafort was "literally conspiring with" did in fact receive publicly available polling data.  That's not the same as saying the only thing they received was publicly available polling data.  I know that they received private polling data.

So Manafort was "literally conspiring" with Kilimnik.  Okay.  What was he "literally conspiring" to do by transmitting this polling data?  Anyone?  Anyone at all?  @Henry Ford?
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Get Trump elected?

 
JuniorNB said:
sho nuff said:
This is also why calling him unwitting doesn’t work for me.  He was warmed over and over.  He has been a part of all of it and the coverup/lies about each and every meeting.
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Being unwitting certainly won't end up being an out for him. But I think we can all agree that he's been a puppet to Putin. I think that Trump was looking at it the way he looks at everything in life...how he can financially profit from the relationship. I highly doubt he set out to team with the enemy and compromise the United States. He's far too dumb to eve figure out how that would work. Putin was/is the genius here. He's pulling all the strings. The term 'unwitting' means that Trump was always in way over head intellectually.
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I think this view is closest to the truth. Think about his life experience prior to the 2016 Election; everything was a transaction. He has no overarching philosophy, moral center or ideology. That’s why his foreign policy is so haphazard, because he’s completely transactional with no thought of long term consequences. Domestically, he often asks aides simply “was Obama for this?” and picks the opposite tack if the answer is yes.

 
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