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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (8 Viewers)

fatness said:
Man,  you've really fallen. I used to take your posts seriously, the ones about government surveillance and loss of civil liberties. Now that there's an authoritarian in power you sound like a guy reporting to a job he doesn't like and typing things to support Big Boss.

I'm sure you're a fine person. But that's how you've sounded for awhile, and I miss the old non-sycophant ren.
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I guess you could read 'delegitimize Trump's win' part as support for Trump.  But the party leadership did infact want to put out the narrative that the election 'wasn't on the up and up'.  Or discredit the election results in other words.  

I wouldn't say that if I didn't think it contributed to the toxic political climate we have now.  He won because the political system failed.  Instead of accepting the election results, having a national discourse about why it happened, and rebuilding the Democratic Party in the voter's image, they have doubled down on the brand of politics that led to Trump.  This really sums up this dark moment in history, at least for me:

https://twitter.com/theintercept/status/1057019835593289728

By the way, we've had authoritarians in power for a long time.  I think the executive branch really started flying off the handle during the Bush admin.  Trump is just blunt about it.  

 
ren hoek said:
I guess you could read 'delegitimize Trump's win' part as support for Trump.  But the party leadership did infact want to put out the narrative that the election 'wasn't on the up and up'.  Or discredit the election results in other words.  

I wouldn't say that if I didn't think it contributed to the toxic political climate we have now.  He won because the political system failed.  Instead of accepting the election results, having a national discourse about why it happened, and rebuilding the Democratic Party in the voter's image, they have doubled down on the brand of politics that led to Trump.  This really sums up this dark moment in history, at least for me:

https://twitter.com/theintercept/status/1057019835593289728

By the way, we've had authoritarians in power for a long time.  I think the executive branch really started flying off the handle during the Bush admin.  Trump is just blunt about it.  
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Bolsanaro. Sorry, tell me why that’s to be cheered again? 

 
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huthut said:
Republicans assume Democrats are as scummy as they are, so basically any time you hear Republicans complain about voter fraud or fake stories in the news realize they are doing that and projecting that Democrats are too. Fake stories get found out immediately, yet somehow Kavanaugh does not have a real alibi yet. 
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If Republicans were like Democrats, they would be circling the wagons right now, defending this guy. The Democrats seem to feel this need to not concede anything and keep defending their fraudsters like the Clintons to the ends of the earth.

 
Mookie said:
Given Giuliani's statement, it's hard to come to any other conclusion except that the President has been been subpoenaed before the grand jury and is actively fighting it before the DC Circuit.
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How long until he starts tweeting about the judge who correctly recused himself?

 
Reading tea leaves is always a sketchy affair, but that is a really interesting article.

Getting into the sealed pleadings seems like a pig in a poke, or, you see what you want to see. However, about the author:

Nelson W. Cunningham has served as a federal prosecutor in the Southern District of New York under Rudolph Giuliani, general counsel of the Senate Judiciary Committee under then-chair Joseph R. Biden, and general counsel of the White House Office of Administration under Bill Clinton.
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Just something I've read about the written Q&A supposedly in draft underway, apparently the transition is not itself covered. So, I could see how the WH and OSC would both agree that the campaign itself is explorable, but the WH would fight tooth and nail about the transition and the presidency. That's exactly the sort of thing that the courts would have to decide.

 
msommer said:
ren hoek said:
I preferred that Lula be allowed to run.  Not sure where you got the idea I'm cheering Bolsonaro.  
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Why on Earth would you want Lula to further wreck Brazil?
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I didn't want to drill Ren on this. I appreciated his response. I just meant that there was likely a left / center left candidate 'standing in' for Lula. Not Lula himself. Whoever it was running against Bolsonaro had to have been a relatively decent choice compared to the most openly authoritarian leader in the hemisphere in what 4 decades? Though I plead ignorance to Brazilian politics beyond what Bolsanaro is about and Lula's corruption. - My main point was about Ren posting a link which also openly linked Trump, Bolsonaro and Brexit, and really I agree with that POV. The point in the link was the excuse making and back handed implicit justification for those three developments.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
I didn't want to drill Ren on this. I appreciated his response. I just meant that there was likely a left / center left candidate 'standing in' for Lula. Not Lula himself. Whoever it was running against Bolsonaro had to have been a relatively decent choice compared to the most openly authoritarian leader in the hemisphere in what 4 decades? Though I plead ignorance to Brazilian politics beyond what Bolsanaro is about and Lula's corruption. - My main point was about Ren posting a link which also openly linked Trump, Bolsonaro and Brexit, and really I agree with that POV. The point in the link was the excuse making and back handed implicit justification for those three developments.
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John Oliver did a piece on this prior to the Brazilian election. Bolsonaro is apparently pretty bad news.

 
Workhorse said:
Wow. This is pretty compelling circumstantial evidence here. It sure sounds like he was and the case is working its way through the legal system.
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Could it also explain why Trump's lawyers have gone to ground?  Rudy, et al have been super duper quiet for some time.  Is it possible there an order not to discuss case in public?

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I didn't want to drill Ren on this. I appreciated his response. I just meant that there was likely a left / center left candidate 'standing in' for Lula. Not Lula himself. Whoever it was running against Bolsonaro had to have been a relatively decent choice compared to the most openly authoritarian leader in the hemisphere in what 4 decades? Though I plead ignorance to Brazilian politics beyond what Bolsanaro is about and Lula's corruption. - My main point was about Ren posting a link which also openly linked Trump, Bolsonaro and Brexit, and really I agree with that POV. The point in the link was the excuse making and back handed implicit justification for those three developments.
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Basically this.  I'm not familiar with their internal politics either but my understanding is Lula was very popular.  I'm interested in how Lula could possibly be any worse than Bolsonaro.  

 
ren hoek said:
Basically this.  I'm not familiar with their internal politics either but my understanding is Lula was very popular.  I'm interested in how Lula could possibly be any worse than Bolsonaro.  
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Well, for starters he'll be in prison for the next twelve years.

Edit: but yes, all else being equal, as a Louisianan I'd prefer "corrupt but popular" to "right wing fascist."

"Vote for the crook.  It's important."

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
I didn't want to drill Ren on this. I appreciated his response. I just meant that there was likely a left / center left candidate 'standing in' for Lula. Not Lula himself. Whoever it was running against Bolsonaro had to have been a relatively decent choice compared to the most openly authoritarian leader in the hemisphere in what 4 decades? Though I plead ignorance to Brazilian politics beyond what Bolsanaro is about and Lula's corruption. - My main point was about Ren posting a link which also openly linked Trump, Bolsonaro and Brexit, and really I agree with that POV. The point in the link was the excuse making and back handed implicit justification for those three developments.
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What ren said by responding the way he did was that the SC in Brazil was incorrect in barring Lula from running, likely on the premise that the SC was doing so from a political stance and not a legal one (that allegation ties into the narrative from PT that it was not proven that Lula had taken ownership of the beach condo he got put in the slammer for, that even the allegation of such was politically motivated etc.)

Brazil would be royally ####ed with Lula, perhaps slightly less so with Haddad (Lula's puppet and thus potentially less effective) and are now ####ed in a different way initially with Bolsonaro (at least until he joins the kleptocracy, then he'll #### Brazil in the usual way as well).

The last 16 years, apart from operation lava jato (car wash), have not been kind to Brazil

 
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Banger said:
sure.... :crazy:
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https://www.g-a-i.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Report-Skolkvovo-08012016.pdf

Executive Summary

• A major technology transfer component of the Russian reset overseen by Hillary Clinton substantially enhanced the Russian military’s technological capabilities, according to both the FBI and the U.S. Army.
• Russian government officials and American corporations participated in the technology transfer project overseen by Hillary Clinton’s State Department that funnelled tens of millions of dollars to the Clinton Foundation.


A Putin-­‐‑connected Russian government fund transferred $35 million to a small company with Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman John Podesta on its executive board, which included senior Russian officials.
• John Podesta failed to reveal, as required by law on his federal financial disclosures, his membership on the board of this offshore company.
• Podesta also headed up a think tank which wrote favorably about the Russian reset while apparently receiving millions from Kremlin-­‐‑linked Russian oligarchs via an offshore LLC.
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msommer said:
Before opining about a matter, such as this one, you should at least attempt to educate yourself on it
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I already said I wasn’t familiar with their internal politics, no need to be high and mighty about it.  I don’t think it takes a terrible lot of nuance to think the most popular politician in the country is preferable to an actual fascist.  

 
ren hoek said:
I already said I wasn’t familiar with their internal politics, no need to be high and mighty about it.  I don’t think it takes a terrible lot of nuance to think the most popular politician in the country is preferable to an actual fascist.  
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Well, Bolsonaro is approximately the same type of fascist as Trump is.

The most popular politician in Brazil has led a massive kleptocracy for 14 of the past 16 years.

There's two things you (apparently) did not know this morning

 
Rove! said:
https://www.g-a-i.org/
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I was going to say something about past administrations' failures post-Yeltsin helped lead to Putin and strengthen him, however:

The Government Accountability Institute is a conservative nonprofit think-tank located in Tallahassee, Florida. GAI was founded in 2012 by Peter Schweizer and Steve Bannon with funding from Robert Mercer and family.
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- So, in short, this isn't serious, or even remotely pretending to be unbiased. It's a political piece. Not that there's anything wrong with advocacy - it's how we make arguments in this country - but seriously in this context Mercer and Bannon are totally wrapped up and conflicted in this story. DOA.

 
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Rove! said:
If Republicans were like Democrats, they would be circling the wagons right now, defending this guy. The Democrats seem to feel this need to not concede anything and keep defending their fraudsters like the Clintons to the ends of the earth.
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Hmm, maybe they should investigate that Clinton lady.  Oh wait...

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I was going to say something about past administrations' failures post-Yeltsin helped lead to Putin and strengthen him, however:

- So, in short, this isn't serious, or even remotely pretending to be unbiased. It's a political piece. Not that there's anything wrong with advocacy - it's how we make arguments in this country - but seriously in this context Mercer and Bannon are totally wrapped up and conflicted in this story. DOA.
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It’s all footnoted using mainstream sources

If there are any claims that you feel are wrong than advise on that...Schweitzer has been published in the NYT because he substantiates any claims he makes

 
Rove! said:
It’s all footnoted using mainstream sources

If there are any claims that you feel are wrong than advise on that...Schweitzer has been published in the NYT because he substantiates any claims he makes
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It’s not the footnotes, it’s the claims, and it’s not a Schweitzer Issue it’s a Bannon & Mercer issue.

 
ren hoek said:
I wouldn't say that if I didn't think it contributed to the toxic political climate we have now.  He won because the political system failed.
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He won because he lied to middle and lower class people believing he'd help them economically, because he appealed to bigotry, and because he got a lot of foreign help.

2 years later apparently all those things have become OK.

 
msommer said:
Well, Bolsonaro is approximately the same type of fascist as Trump is.
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Looks like you know a lot less than you think.  Part of the problem with cheapening words like fascist and nazi is that they don’t mean anything when a real one comes along.  I’m sure this take will age well.  Take care 

 
Mr. Ham said:
Don’t know, but let’s imagine the US normalizes in the next couple election cycles and restores some of our missing values.  (I hope this is the case!)

It’s likely that Brazil doesn’t and falls into dictatorship.  Trumpism and it’s viral spread will have seeded a powerful enemy south of the boarder that is more likely to align with Chinese and Russian interests than ours.  

Putin sewed these seeds of division for a reason.  Man did we in the West all fall for it.  

If we don’t normalize in the next couple of election cycles, we’ll then - ####.  We will just be another country ruled by an oligarchy with all of the tactics of sewing nationalism, and hate and fear and division institutionalized.  

It’s amazing to me that some of you don’t see this for what it is and understand its dangers.  But I guess the closer to are to believing these changes benefit you, the less you think it matters.  It will be too late one day...  And very few of you will actually come out ahead.  Your ego just tells you you will, which is what isn’t being banked on.   

When your GOP leaders get you to think of them as “us,” just know that you aren’t an “us” to them.   You’re a “them.”  “We” are not in the club, you dopes.  Things are just going to get gradually worse for all but a few.
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I'd love to help stomp out this fascism, but my 401K is doing well and I've got my eye on this new riding mower....  Maybe if it gets really bad. 

 
Mookie said:
I'd love to help stomp out this fascism, but my 401K is doing well and I've got my eye on this new riding mower....  Maybe if it gets really bad. 
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The SS detects a hint of sarcasm in your post and will be showing up at your door to question you....oh wait no they won’t because this is the United States where we can openly mock leaders without repercussions ( as long as you don’t invoke George Soros)

 
roadkill1292 said:
How long before Bolsonaro executes step one of the V. Putin playbook, asking for term limits for his office to be eliminated?
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The SC will shoot him down that very second

 
Mr. Ham said:
Don’t know, but let’s imagine the US normalizes in the next couple election cycles and restores some of our missing values.  (I hope this is the case!)

It’s likely that Brazil doesn’t and falls into dictatorship.  Trumpism and it’s viral spread will have seeded a powerful enemy south of the boarder that is more likely to align with Chinese and Russian interests than ours.  

Putin sewed these seeds of division for a reason.  Man did we in the West all fall for it.  

If we don’t normalize in the next couple of election cycles, we’ll then - ####.  We will just be another country ruled by an oligarchy with all of the tactics of sewing nationalism, and hate and fear and division institutionalized.  

It’s amazing to me that some of you don’t see this for what it is and understand its dangers.  But I guess the closer to are to believing these changes benefit you, the less you think it matters.  It will be too late one day...  And very few of you will actually come out ahead.  Your ego just tells you you will, which is what isn’t being banked on.   

When your GOP leaders get you to think of them as “us,” just know that you aren’t an “us” to them.   You’re a “them.”  “We” are not in the club, you dopes.  Things are just going to get gradually worse for all but a few.
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 If you think the bolded is likely, please show your work.

 
roadkill1292 said:
I hope that would be the case. However, he seems to be the type of fellow, again like our friend Vlad, who thinks that his office and the support of the military means slightly more than the SC's opinion.
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Fortunately the SC knows better and don't forget they just threw Lula in jail.

Bozonazi does not have the support of the military for a coup - frankly IMHO I cannot think of anything the military would want less than take over governing Brazil

 
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