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Chelsea Manning's Sentence Commuted (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rockaction
- Start date
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
So, do we want David Petraeus executed for treason as well?
squistion
Footballguy
Joy Reid @JoyAnnReid 4m4 minutes ago
Obama dealing with the Manning pardon now.
Says Manning served signif time, admitted wrongdoing, so message to leakers was sent.
Obama dealing with the Manning pardon now.
Says Manning served signif time, admitted wrongdoing, so message to leakers was sent.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
He did. I don't even think it was a week ago.
edit, he said he would "If Obama grants Manning clemency"
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Dickies
Footballguy
Scoresman
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This was a really terrible commutation, especially coming on the heels of this election. I'm very supportive of some of the pardons/commutations Obama has handed out, but this one is awful.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
He's already saying he won't turn himself in.
He's claiming he demanded Manning be released immediately and it's not happening until May.
rockaction
Footballguy
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
squistion
Footballguy
I doubt the relatives of the innocent civilians killed on the street by a helicopter would agree with that.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
William Munny
Footballguy
Scoresman
Footballguy
Did anything ever come of people saying the leaks she posted had information pertaining to tribal leaders/allies that helped us, which would cause them to be retaliated against? I remember that being a huge issue during her initial trial, that her leaks also hurt our allies.
I think whistleblowers should be protected obviously, but that stuff doesn't need to come out. I realize she was getting worked over by Assange taking advantage of her mental state, but if she did leak information that led to innocent people being hurt, she did deserve some sentence. There's a difference between leaking our human rights abuses and leaking out stuff that could get people or their families hurt.
I think whistleblowers should be protected obviously, but that stuff doesn't need to come out. I realize she was getting worked over by Assange taking advantage of her mental state, but if she did leak information that led to innocent people being hurt, she did deserve some sentence. There's a difference between leaking our human rights abuses and leaking out stuff that could get people or their families hurt.
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squistion
Footballguy
Perhaps not, although the end result is the same for Manning (getting released, although in four months instead of immediately) so I imagine Reid views it as pretty much the same from a practical standpoint.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
You realize that he could have released some info but not the stuff that put innocent lives in danger and compromised our sources/agents, right?
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
There is no way that civilians will ever know this. Just giving out that info would have the potential to out other sources/agents lives at risk.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
Not everyone is in agreement with that:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/bradley-manning-sentencing-hearing-pentagon
Bradley Manning leak did not result in deaths by enemy forces, court hears
Counter-intelligence officer who investigated WikiLeaks impact undermines argument that Manning leak put lives at risk
The US counter-intelligence official who led the Pentagon's review into the fallout from the WikiLeaks disclosures of state secrets told the Bradley Manning sentencing hearing on Wednesday that no instances were ever found of any individual killed by enemy forces as a result of having been named in the releases.
Brigadier general Robert Carr, a senior counter-intelligence officer who headed the Information Review Task Force that investigated the impact of WikiLeaks disclosures on behalf of the Defense Department, told a court at Fort Meade, Maryland, that they had uncovered no specific examples of anyone who had lost his or her life in reprisals that followed the publication of the disclosures on the internet. "I don't have a specific example," he said.
It has been one of the main criticisms of the WikiLeaks publications that they put lives at risk, particularly in Iran and Afghanistan. The admission by the Pentagon's chief investigator into the fallout from WikiLeaks that no such casualties were identified marks a significant undermining of such arguments.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Just wondering where the line is drawn re: leaking national security information and people being expected to rot in jail for the rest of their lives .
the scope of Petraeus' actions may have been less than Mannings, but to be mad at clemency for manning while being OK that Petraeus never saw 5 minutes of jail time strikes me as inconsistent.
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simsarge
Footballguy
Or that they couldn't come up with a specific name/incident without opening up another can of worms.
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
Outside of the cruel and inhuman treatment for 11 months?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un
Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules
The UN special rapporteur on torture has formally accused the US government of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment towards Bradley Manning, the US soldier who was held in solitary confinement for almost a year on suspicion of being the WikiLeaks source.
Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier's arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.
"The special rapporteur concludes that imposing seriously punitive conditions of detention on someone who has not been found guilty of any crime is a violation of his right to physical and psychological integrity as well as of his presumption of innocence," Mendez writes.
simsarge
Footballguy
Not saying he was or wasn't but the conclusions of some gee wiz " UN special rapporteur " for the Guardian is hardly Woodward and Bernstein type stuff
squistion
Footballguy
He was working for UN, not the Guardian and this was a 14 month investigation he was commissioned to do, with his final report presented to the UN General Assembly.
In a later letter, dated May 19 2011, the Pentagon's legal counsel told Mendez that it was satisfied that Manning's treatment at Quantico had been fine. "Though Private Manning was classified as a maximum custody detainee at Quantico, he occupied the very same type of single-occupancy cell that all other pretrial detainees occupied."
BassNBrew
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
Except that I don't believe that most pretrial detainees being court martialed are held in the military brig at Quantico for 9 months.
Sand
Footballguy
William Munny
Footballguy
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
He is a Professor of Human Rights Law in residence at the American University – Washington College of Law. In addition, He has taught International Human Rights Law at Georgetown Law School and at the John Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, and he teaches regularly at the Oxford Masters Program in International Human Rights Law in the United Kingdom. http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Torture/SRTorture/Pages/JuanMendez.aspx
Probably no one better qualified to be hired by the UN to look into whether this "so called torture thing" amounted to cruel and inhumane treatment.
Sand
Footballguy
Senator McCain is on the tube right now directly controverting this. He indicates that the Taliban went after many of the folks leaked in these reports and killed them That makes Manning a multiple murderer.
And, yes, I trust McCain here. He is as honorable a person as we have in DC. Sorry - not buying the Guardian. Six years for killing lots of Afghan villagers for helping the cause of the US. Great message to send.
There are a very few times that statements on these boards really get to me. Those folks in here that support this decision... well, I'll just leave it there.
timschochet
Footballguy
If what McCain is saying is true (and like you I find him honorable but there's still some dispute about his facts) that still doesn't make Manning a multiple murderer. I guess I have a different definition about that than you do; I don't think he meant to murder anyone, and when we consider sentencing, intent should absolutely be a factor.
This person deserved to be condemned and deserved to go to prison. No argument. But I support the decision because I think 6 years seems like an appropropiate period of time.
Sand
Footballguy
Vehicular homicide guidelines have a range but 10-20 years isn't out of order. This is more than Manning got and those folks driving drunk and killing people didn't mean it either.
The difference being that Manning killed lots more people than someone driving drunk could ever could. People getting killed by releasing these kinds of secret documents was easily anticipated and expected. I always thought Manning should have gotten at least a life sentence. Now that I heard McCain he should have gotten worse.
FUBAR
Footballguy
There's a pretty significant difference in motives here. But you havery a good point. It's not directly applicable but the concept of felony murder applies here.
That said, I have no problem with the commutation.
I don't have a problem with the resolution here - but it is highly unorthodox when it comes to these types of things.
I have shared here before, so its not a big secret to some, but my parents were good friends with a guy by the name of Art Walker. In fact, my dad had served under Art Walker when he was in the Navy, and Art's daughter had been one of my childhood babysitters. Back in the midst of the Cold War, 1985, Art Walker and his brother John, John's son, and another man were all convicted of selling classified information to the Soviets. By all accounts, John Walker was the ringleader of the "Walker spy-ring", and he recruited the others to provide him with classified material - Art from his job with a defense contractor, John's son and the other guy were both in the Navy at the time. The overall damage caused by the spy ring was described as extensive allowing the soviets to decipher millions of documents among other things.
Art's involvement is summed up by the NYTimes as this:
In 1985, Arthur was charged with stealing two sets of classified documents from VSE and giving them to his brother for two $6,000 payments. One document was a history of repairs made to a class of amphibious ships. The other was a set of plans for “damage control” aboard two sophisticated communications ships. Both were rated “confidential,” the lowest of three levels of military classification.
John cut a deal for himself and his son. Art was found guilty in 1985, sentenced to 3 life terms plus 40 years. SOn got 25 years, was paroled after 15, and the 4th guy ended up with 365 years - I think he was stealing the good stuff... Art died in prison 29 years later - he was a month away from his next parole hearing, where it was expected he would have finally gotten released after 30 years in prison. He spent the last 10 years or so in the federal facility in Butner not far from Raleigh. My parents probably visited him 8-10 times a year while he was incarcerated there, testified at at least two parole hearings, and provided assurance of a place to live in those proceedings.
At each of the hearings, the government was steadfast against parole - despite the limited involvement in the spy ring, the government would not budge on their insistence that Art serve a full life term - which was 30 years. Now Art may have been treated harshly, but he did sell classified information to the Soviets - I don't think anyone disputes that he needed to spend time in prison. But, when the government was not willing to budge on a relatively minor transgression - despite glowing reviews from his prison counselor, his parole officer, a number of character witnesses - they take their spying very seriously.
Manning did not sell info to the Soviets - but I suspect the actual damage was far more extensive than Art's selling the designs of a couple of outdated ships. Somewhere, in the military chain of command, someone(s) are furious to see Manning get off so lightly. They expect their pound of flesh to be paid in full.
I have shared here before, so its not a big secret to some, but my parents were good friends with a guy by the name of Art Walker. In fact, my dad had served under Art Walker when he was in the Navy, and Art's daughter had been one of my childhood babysitters. Back in the midst of the Cold War, 1985, Art Walker and his brother John, John's son, and another man were all convicted of selling classified information to the Soviets. By all accounts, John Walker was the ringleader of the "Walker spy-ring", and he recruited the others to provide him with classified material - Art from his job with a defense contractor, John's son and the other guy were both in the Navy at the time. The overall damage caused by the spy ring was described as extensive allowing the soviets to decipher millions of documents among other things.
Art's involvement is summed up by the NYTimes as this:
In 1985, Arthur was charged with stealing two sets of classified documents from VSE and giving them to his brother for two $6,000 payments. One document was a history of repairs made to a class of amphibious ships. The other was a set of plans for “damage control” aboard two sophisticated communications ships. Both were rated “confidential,” the lowest of three levels of military classification.
John cut a deal for himself and his son. Art was found guilty in 1985, sentenced to 3 life terms plus 40 years. SOn got 25 years, was paroled after 15, and the 4th guy ended up with 365 years - I think he was stealing the good stuff... Art died in prison 29 years later - he was a month away from his next parole hearing, where it was expected he would have finally gotten released after 30 years in prison. He spent the last 10 years or so in the federal facility in Butner not far from Raleigh. My parents probably visited him 8-10 times a year while he was incarcerated there, testified at at least two parole hearings, and provided assurance of a place to live in those proceedings.
At each of the hearings, the government was steadfast against parole - despite the limited involvement in the spy ring, the government would not budge on their insistence that Art serve a full life term - which was 30 years. Now Art may have been treated harshly, but he did sell classified information to the Soviets - I don't think anyone disputes that he needed to spend time in prison. But, when the government was not willing to budge on a relatively minor transgression - despite glowing reviews from his prison counselor, his parole officer, a number of character witnesses - they take their spying very seriously.
Manning did not sell info to the Soviets - but I suspect the actual damage was far more extensive than Art's selling the designs of a couple of outdated ships. Somewhere, in the military chain of command, someone(s) are furious to see Manning get off so lightly. They expect their pound of flesh to be paid in full.
Sand
Footballguy
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
No ####...Little Chelsea/Bradley should be glad her/his ### was isolated from other prisoners...William Munny said:
William Munny
Footballguy
Obama couldn't miss one last chance to prove what an incompetent fool he is and has been.
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