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Sabertooth

Betsy Devos....probably going to need her own thread.

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2 minutes ago, Sabertooth said:

Yeah, good thing.  Of course she's also been an advocate for bringing God back into schools.  So that's probably good. 

She advocates school choice, which gives the parents the option.  I am not aware that she wants to put God into public schools. 

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21 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Don't do what?  Nominate liberals or conservatives to their administrations?  Her views on education aren't that out of whack from a conservative viewpoint.

Hey I pointed that out too. 

But in addition to her positions, Devos seems rather incompetent for the position that she's been chosen for. And that's a distinction from any of the picks that Obama made. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Hey I pointed that out too. 

But in addition to her positions, Devos seems rather incompetent for the position that she's been chosen for. And that's a distinction from any of the picks that Obama made. 

Yet, sadly, not a distinction from among the picks Trump has made*

 

*caveat - I am still coming around on Tillerson as SOS, as long as he does not have to follow Trump's lead on foreign policy.

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43 minutes ago, massraider said:

Then you thought wrong.

There will be a million stories about this remarkably unqualified fool for the position she is about to take, Franken shone a light on another offensive side of her, and had her in front of a mic to address it.  Maybe Betsy has thoughts on how to handle gay students?  

 

Yea, gay students could suffer for sure under somebody like her. 

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3 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Can someone break down what she wants to do to public education and why it's bad without all the hyperbole?

These are the questions which were not asked.  It is more fun to talk about child labor camps. 

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1 hour ago, Ren Ho3k said:

Apparently her brother is the Blackwater scumbag.  

Husband is an Amway guy as well I think.

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Many of us would oppose DeVos on principle because school choice is simply corporate welfare with no consistent record of improving student outcomes.  Many might find it extremely hypocritical to campaign on the idea that people who go from government to lobbying are criminals in the swamp, and then promote the donor who has given the most money to school choice lobbyists a plum cabinet post.  Many might think that any cabinet position should require someone with at least a shred of public policy bona fides, and those people might feel that their position has been verified when the nominee proves herself to be unaware of relatively basic concepts in the area of policy she would direct.

Those all seem like legitimate complaints worth noting.  The cherry on top, of course, was being reluctant to keep guns out of schools because "what if children had to be defended from Grizzly Bears."  Deaths from school shootings since 2010 -- 119.  Grizzly attacks in schools since, I don't know, ever? -- 0. 

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9 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Can someone break down what she wants to do to public education and why it's bad without all the hyperbole?

I described them in my first post in the thread: 

Pro vouchers

pro charter schools

anti teacher unions

anti federal control of curriculum

I think most conservatives will cheer this agenda, and most progressives will despise it. But the conservatives won, so this is what we get. 

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4 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Husband is an Amway guy as well I think.

Husband's family (Devos) founded Amway

My understanding is that her family is also considered royalty in western Michigan

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Just now, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

Grizzly attacks in schools since, I don't know, ever? -- 0. 

That's because grizzlies are reluctant to mess with students who might be armed.  Take guns away, and our middle school students are now walking, talking picnic baskets.  

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Just now, sho nuff said:

Husband is an Amway guy as well I think.

Yup, Rich Devos, co-founder of Amway.

I'm pretty conservative and I hate this appointment.  Maybe the idea is to cause the Department of Education to implode?  Beyond that mastermind plot, I can't fathom why she was appointed.  Trump is an idiot.

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

That's because grizzlies are reluctant to mess with students who might be armed.  Take guns away, and our middle school students are now walking, talking picnic baskets.  

I liked this post, but you really should have said "pic-a-nic" baskets. 

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6 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Yup, Rich Devos, co-founder of Amway.

I'm pretty conservative and I hate this appointment.  Maybe the idea is to cause the Department of Education to implode?  Beyond that mastermind plot, I can't fathom why she was appointed.  Trump is an idiot.

He's draining the swamp.

Part of draining the swamp is putting people in charge of departments they intend to destroy.

I mean he campaigned on exactly this so I don't really see the issue.

 

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She is very big on chart schools, and very low on having them have any financial oversight or regulation. This is my biggest issue. IMO she will try and take one of the last remaining gov't funding areas and turn them into a for-profit enterprise for investors. In the long run, yes, you can complain that teacher's salaries and union practices are generally too high, but when you take the same pot of money and slash the part going to the largest % of the employees, leaving the rest to a small group of investors, you are cutting deep into the middle class. 

As I said in the other thread, the union is a huge barrier, but it needs to evolve but not completely broken. There are plenty of schools that are doing fine, so why are they trying to completely rip the system down as oppose to fixing what they have? Many of the 'failures' begin before that student even steps foot in the school but yet the average everyday teacher is unfortunately held accountable for that and will suffer for it in the end. 

 

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12 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I described them in my first post in the thread: 

Pro vouchers

pro charter schools

anti teacher unions

anti federal control of curriculum

I think most conservatives will cheer this agenda, and most progressives will despise it. But the conservatives won, so this is what we get. 

Thanks I missed it through all the nonsense about gays and turning kids into Chinese Nike factory workers. 

Im anti federal control of curriculum.  Let teachers use their education to do their jobs. Govt should give them the resources needed but not tell them how to teach. That's me. 

I need to read up more on vouchers and charter schools that's why I asked what's so bad about what she wants to do. Personally I take the education of my kids into my own hands and don't expect the govt to fund it. 

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Alot of what is being discussed here can't actually be managed by the DoE.  They are nearly exclusively limited to managing college debt programs.  They have nearly zero control over charter schools, or vouchers or any of that crap.

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51 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

What about her competence?  Isn't that a big reason for the criticism of her?  It seems like she isn't familiar with some very basic concepts because she's never actually had a job in education or a degree in education.

She was clearly flustered in some of the video I saw, but I don't believe she is incompetent.

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Just now, culdeus said:

Alot of what is being discussed here can't actually be managed by the DoE.  They are nearly exclusively limited to managing college debt programs.  They have nearly zero control over charter schools, or vouchers or any of that crap.

I am pretty sure the DOE holds the purse strings to billions of dollars in federal aids and grants that go to local communities (including charter schools and many private schools).  That was the point of Kaine's line of questioning - if you get federal money, you should play by the same rules as everyone else.

 

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1 minute ago, jonessed said:

She was clearly flustered in some of the video I saw, but I don't believe she is incompetent.

She seems pretty unqualified to me, just based on her experience.  The confirmation hearing was an opportunity for her to show that she was well-qualified despite her lack of experience, and she failed that test.  I'm just not sure why you would give her the benefit of the doubt.

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I am shocked you guys don't think a woman born Into a millionaire family, who married a billionaire, who has gone to private school her entire life wouldn't know how to run public schools.  I'm shocked Trump didn't nominate Janet Baressi.  Hell he picked Scott Pruitt.  Just a general rule...if you are considering a politician from Oklahoma for any position other than #### shoveler you are doing it wrong.

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46 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

She advocates school choice, which gives the parents the option.  I am not aware that she wants to put God into public schools. 

You don't have to have sources any more.  We can just make up whatever we want since....well, Trump.  I feel in my heart that she wants to.  

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7 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

I am pretty sure the DOE holds the purse strings to billions of dollars in federal aids and grants that go to local communities (including charter schools and many private schools).  That was the point of Kaine's line of questioning - if you get federal money, you should play by the same rules as everyone else.

 

and as we know, the federal gov't NEVER uses those funds as leverage (or better yet, ransom) for getting the states to do what they want. 

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2 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

She seems pretty unqualified to me, just based on her experience.  The confirmation hearing was an opportunity for her to show that she was well-qualified despite her lack of experience, and she failed that test.  I'm just not sure why you would give her the benefit of the doubt.

Her experience is in dealing with trying to push private school options in a largely public systems.  If that is what Trump is looking for her background does not appear to make her unqualified.

I have no idea how she is going to do, but since I have no control over the situation I'm content with being able to wait and see.

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5 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

She seems pretty unqualified to me, just based on her experience.  The confirmation hearing was an opportunity for her to show that she was well-qualified despite her lack of experience, and she failed that test.  I'm just not sure why you would give her the benefit of the doubt.

Because they won! 

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8 minutes ago, jonessed said:

She was clearly flustered in some of the video I saw, but I don't believe she is incompetent.

What leads you to believe that she's in any way competent? She has zero experience related in any way to public education, and very clearly was shown as fundamentally ignorant of basic knowledge related to her proposed position.

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Just now, Coeur de Lion said:

What leads you to believe that she's in any way competent? She has zero experience related in any way to public education, and very clearly was shown as fundamentally ignorant of basic knowledge related to her proposed position.

Because as you know, running government agencies is very similar to running businesses.  Like in a business, you would buy and sell land (or in the case of Amway selling books, tapes, and seminars).  In government you buy and sell favors.  Same thing.  

She's rich ergo she's successful.  Thus anything she does will be raised up by her because of her richness.  

Edited by Sabertooth
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1 minute ago, jonessed said:

Her experience is in dealing with trying to push private school options in a largely public systems.  

Right, she's an advocate.  She's not an administrator.  Heading a government agency isn't about just pushing ideology.  There's, like, actual stuff to get done.

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Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Right, she's an advocate.  She's not an administrator.  Heading a government agency isn't about just pushing ideology.  There's, like, actual stuff to get done.

Don't worry, she's like - a smart person.  How else would she be rich?  

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Her confirmation if/when it happens, will be the death knell for public schools in this country.  I don't know how anyone on either side of the aisle, especially after she her hearing, could endorse this woman for this job.

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3 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Her experience is in dealing with trying to push private school options in a largely public systems.  If that is what Trump is looking for her background does not appear to make her unqualified.

I have no idea how she is going to do, but since I have no control over the situation I'm content with being able to wait and see.

I think she is a buffoon - but this is spot on.  Trump won the election, and believes his supporters are looking for changes to the school systems that mirror many of the positions that Devos has taken in her life.  Its naive to expect anything different.  It sounds like there will be a big push for more charter schools - probably run in a similar fashion, and with as much success, as private prisons.  Not a lot that anyone can do about that in the short-term.

 

Still does not mean everyone should sit on their hands - given that a majority of americans opposed a Trump presidency.  I think Trump, and the republicans, treating these elections as a mandate will ultimately be their downfall.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Sabertooth said:

Because as you know, running government agencies is very similar to running businesses.  Like in a business, you would buy and sell land (or in the case of Amway selling books, tapes, and seminars).  In government you buy and sell favors.  Same thing.  

Running a fundamentalist pyramid scheme really ought to prepare someone well for just about anything, amirite?

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8 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Right, she's an advocate.  She's not an administrator.  Heading a government agency isn't about just pushing ideology.  There's, like, actual stuff to get done.

She has a background in administrating non-profits and working in the confines of the public system.

Education is largely local so if Trump wants to push through national change it's going to take someone who is used to going head-to-head with state governments, city governments, unions, etc.

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Just as a comparison, here's the most relevant experience of the previous 4 Secretaries of Education prior to being appointed to the job:

John King – Acting Deputy Secretary of Department of Education (4 years), NY State Education Commisioner (4 years)

Arne Duncan – Superintendent of Chicago Public Schools (8 years)

Margaret Spellings – Director of Domestic Policy Counsel (3 years)

Rod Paige – Dean of Texas Southern College of Education (10 years), Superintendent of Houston Schools (7 years)

I guess Margaret Spellings might be somewhat more comparable to DeVos, but even she had some background in the work of the Department of Education having been an advisor for George W. Bush on domestic issues.  The other three all were people that actually ran school systems.

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1 hour ago, jonessed said:

Don't do what?  Nominate liberals or conservatives to their administrations?  

Nominate people who have an interest and want to lead said agency successfully as opposed to nominating people who hate government and wanted to get rid of the very agency they've been tasked to run?    Yep....always 50/50. 

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8 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Right, she's an advocate.  She's not an administrator.  Heading a government agency isn't about just pushing ideology.  There's, like, actual stuff to get done.

Yes, no, maybe.  

Effective leaders come in all shapes and sizes.  I disagree with her premise - but I don't discount that she can effectively lead a policy shift in that direction.  Hasn't she done that in Michigan?  Being the head of the department does not mean you need to get bogged down in the minutiae - you have public school educated people to do the grunt work. 

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5 minutes ago, D in the D said:

Her confirmation if/when it happens, will be the death knell for public schools in this country. 

No hyperbole here. 

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5 minutes ago, Coeur de Lion said:

Running a fundamentalist pyramid scheme really ought to prepare someone well for just about anything, amirite?

Books, tapes, and seminars baby!  

Free in 93' ! 

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Just now, jon_mx said:

Obama was mostly an advocate too with no real experience. 

Wait, are you saying you think Obama did a good job?  Wow.  Didn't expect that.   

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Obama was mostly an advocate too with no real experience. 

Why do people that bash Obama keep using this line of reasoning?

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1 minute ago, urbanhack said:

Nominate people who have an interest and want to lead said agency successfully as opposed to nominating people who hate government and wanted to get rid of the very agency they've been tasked to run?    Yep....always 50/50. 

This is always the difficult part of a presidential transition.  Trump, and the GOP, have very different views on how and when government should be involved.  It was always a given that a Trump nominee to the EPA is going to favor fewer regulations - to spur business growth at the expense of environmental controls.

Department of Education - put more control in the hands of parents - which is the simplistic viewpoint of Devos.

Supreme Court Justices that favor conservative view points.

And, on down the line.

 

To the victor go the spoils.

 

If the DNC had not been so in the bag for Clinton, we would be listening to conservative bemoaning the choices Sanders was making for his cabinet.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

I think she is a buffoon - but this is spot on.  Trump won the election, and believes his supporters are looking for changes to the school systems that mirror many of the positions that Devos has taken in her life.  Its naive to expect anything different.  It sounds like there will be a big push for more charter schools - probably run in a similar fashion, and with as much success, as private prisons.  Not a lot that anyone can do about that in the short-term.

 

Still does not mean everyone should sit on their hands - given that a majority of americans opposed a Trump presidency.  I think Trump, and the republicans, treating these elections as a mandate will ultimately be their downfall.

 

 

A mandate for what?  Change?  Hillary was firmly the status quo candidate.  She lost.  Change is what we are going to get because it's what people voted for.

Every party new in power ends up over-reaching.  The only question is if they can solidify those reaches into the norm.  Obama took some big risks instituting policy through EO.  It means that a lot of what he did will simply be wiped out.  I would prefer Trump take smaller steps and make more long-lasting changes after the EOs are unwound, but that's up to him.

I don't think picking Devos to push charter schools is really going to cause long-term outrage.  The DOE is fairly constrained in what it can do.

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Just now, jonessed said:

A mandate for what?  Change?  Hillary was firmly the status quo candidate.  She lost.  Change is what we are going to get because it's what people voted for.

Every party new in power ends up over-reaching.  The only question is if they can solidify those reaches into the norm.  Obama took some big risks instituting policy through EO.  It means that a lot of what he did will simply be wiped out.  I would prefer Trump take smaller steps and make more long-lasting changes after the EOs are unwound, but that's up to him.

I don't think picking Devos to push charter schools is really going to cause long-term outrage.  The DOE is fairly constrained in what it can do.

More people in the country voted for status quo than voted for change.  As bad as Hillary was - more people preferred Hillary to Trump - and I doubt that has changed.

The DNC badly miscalculated the mid-west, but those are razor thin margins - any overstep and it easily tilts back.  Add to that an increased Dem effort in those areas, and I think the next presidential election will have a very different look to it.

 

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50 minutes ago, culdeus said:

He's draining the swamp.

Part of draining the swamp is putting people in charge of departments they intend to destroy.

I mean he campaigned on exactly this so I don't really see the issue.

 

Destroy?  No.  Certainly shrink and/or roll back regulations though.

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Just now, Sinn Fein said:

More people in the country voted for status quo than voted for change.  As bad as Hillary was - more people preferred Hillary to Trump - and I doubt that has changed.

The DNC badly miscalculated the mid-west, but those are razor thin margins - any overstep and it easily tilts back.  Add to that an increased Dem effort in those areas, and I think the next presidential election will have a very different look to it.

 

They have thumped the Dems locally in the last four elections, control the House, and will likely increase the Senate margin in two years.

I think you are putting too much weight on the presidency.  Obama's likability glossed over some pretty bad showings by the Democrats.  The push for a different direction has been a long time coming.

The election happened to be close because Donald Trump was a terrible presidential candidate.  Really, really bad.

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5 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Destroy?  No.  Certainly shrink and/or roll back regulations though.

Like that pesky child labor law.  Silly liberals.

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1 minute ago, jonessed said:

The election happened to be close because Donald Trump Hillary Clinton was a terrible presidential candidate.  Really, really bad.

 

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1 minute ago, Sabertooth said:

Like that pesky child labor law.  Silly liberals.

:fishing:

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