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Betsy Devos....probably going to need her own thread.

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Just now, Ramblin Wreck said:

What are you talking about?

Betsy Devos thinks kids should be "allowed" to work.  Don't you have facebook?  

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Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

His facebook feed is not the same as your facebook feed.

Mine gets acid washed daily with memes.  

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wrong_mx:

Obama was mostly an advocate too with no real experience.



Sure, aside from the 4 years experience as a U.S. Senator, the 8 years experience as an Illinois state Senator, and the 11 years experience as a working lawyer, not to mention the 12 years experience as a part-time law professor (where he taught 3 courses per year).

But aside from that.......no...real...experience.

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I have no idea what will happen with her in this position.  I can't get concerned about her policies yet.  My biggest concern is her attitude and the way she presented herself.  She didn't seem like she could give two ####s (where she knew what people were talking about).  Then there's the whole issue of having no clue what some of those questioning her were talking about.  I don't think she has the basic knowledge necessary to do this job.  She's going to have to be a quick study and nothing that she provided in her performance would suggest she can be a quick study.

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Just now, The Commish said:

I have no idea what will happen with her in this position.  I can't get concerned about her policies yet.  My biggest concern is her attitude and the way she presented herself.  She didn't seem like she could give two ####s (where she knew what people were talking about).  Then there's the whole issue of having no clue what some of those questioning her were talking about.  I don't think she has the basic knowledge necessary to do this job.  She's going to have to be a quick study and nothing that she provided in her performance would suggest she can be a quick study.

So almost like a mini-Trump.  But with her own ##### to grab.  

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

Living in Orange County (bastion of conservatism) I hear it all the time: kids are lazy, they don't work hard enough in school, we worked much harder back in the day, they think they're entitled, enough of this common core crap, let's get back to the basics, etc. 

Most people around here probably have no clue who Devos is (I doubt they're paying attention) but if they heard her they'd like her. 

Such a sad attitude. School is much more challenging than it was 30 years ago. 

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2 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

So, I like her idea of breaking down the education issue into smaller chunks that can be tackled separately.

First, lets make sure we can reimburse all the wealthy parents who eschew local public schools for private schools.  After all, its not fair that those parents have to pay taxes for resources they would never use.  

Second, lets make sure all the middle class families have better public school options so that their kids are not tainted by the societal failure of poor kids.

Finally, we can get to the root of the education disparity in the country, and address the education system that is failing millions of lower income kids.  You know what though, we have probably already done enough work on education that this part can wait for another administration.  

Why do wealthy people not have to pay for public ed? I don't go to the park. Can I get s refund on my park money? I haven't had a fire either so I want my fire department money too. Everyone benefits from educating the kids in our communities. How selfish and short sighted are people?

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13 minutes ago, Sabertooth said:

Betsy Devos thinks kids should be "allowed" to work.  Don't you have facebook?  

You think kids should not be allowed to work?  I have no clue wtf you're saying.  Maybe spell out the issue and you're disagreement with it?

Whats Facebook got to do with this?

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Can someone break down what she wants to do to public education and why it's bad without all the hyperbole?

Break apart unions

Unregulated for profit charter schools 

That is what has been working at in Michigan to disaterous results. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/12/08/a-sobering-look-at-what-betsy-devos-did-to-education-in-michigan-and-what-she-might-do-as-secretary-of-education/?client=safari

It's no secret, she has been paying to get turn her views into policy in Michigan for awhile. Her answers fell right in line with what she has been doing.

Edited by Ilov80s
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3 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Why do wealthy people not have to pay for public ed? I don't go to the park. Can I get s refund on my park money? I haven't had a fire either so I want my fire department money too. Everyone benefits from educating the kids in our communities. How selfish and short sighted are people?

New to this country?  We are so myopic we are considered legally blind.

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1 minute ago, Sinn Fein said:

New to this country?  We are so myopic we are considered legally blind.

I agree but I thought some here were a bit smarter. I mistook you as advocating for it.

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7 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Why do wealthy people not have to pay for public ed? I don't go to the park. Can I get s refund on my park money? I haven't had a fire either so I want my fire department money too. Everyone benefits from educating the kids in our communities. How selfish and short sighted are people?

EXTREMELY!!!  Hence, Trump.

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7 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

His facebook feed is not the same as your facebook feed.

Any conservative types on facebook want to share what their feed looks like politically?  I think it could be sorta eye-opening.  Here's the political content as I scroll down my feed right now:

1) Sponsored content from Natural Resources Defense Council -- "Donald Trump doesn't believe in global warming ..."

2) Link from my aunt to some anti-Trump article from something called "Truthexaminer.com"

3) Link from my aunt to NY Times article about all the locations for Women's marches on Saturday

4) Link from my aunt to article on "offtheshelf.com" with book recommendations from President Obama

5) Link from someone I went to high school with to embarassing youtube clip of DeVos

6) Link from somebody I play softball with to Washington Post article "6 head-scratching moments from DeVos hearing"

7, 8) 2 different links to anti-Trump articles on VICE News

9) Repost from a different relative with a picture of James O'Keefe encouraging people that go to the March to decline talking to him.

10) Post from a different high school acquaintance about the fact the Jon Voight is going to be at the inauguration.

11) Post from someone I went to college with that lists and thanks the Congressman who will be "skipping the inauguration of hate"

12) Post from another high school person praising LGBTQ dance party at Pence's last night.

I could go on and on, this is all from just yesterday and today.  Every once in a while something pro-Trump or anti-Dem will appear on my feed but not often.  This is what the bubble is all about, folks.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Coeur de Lion said:

Seriously?

Not everyone has a negative view of homeschooling.  Shocking there is a diversity of views? 

Edited by jon_mx

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Just now, jon_mx said:

 

2 minutes ago, Coeur de Lion said:

Seriously?

Not everyone has a negative view of homeschooling. 

 

"homeschooling" is just a vague term, who knows what is meant by it.  I was unaware at how many different variations there are these days.  They seem to range from "the suck" to "pretty freakin' cool"

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

"homeschooling" is just a vague term, who knows what is meant by it.  I was unaware at how many different variations there are these days.  They seem to range from "the suck" to "pretty freakin' cool"

What part sucks and what part is freaking cool?

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1 minute ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Dead serious. I have no issues with homeschooling. What are your issues with it?

The education provided is absolutely markedly inferior in the vast majority of home schooling experiences. If nothing else, the social and experiential aspects of community education are going to be completely lacking. I have no problem with people who choose to home school their own children, but I definitely have a huge problem with a Secretary of Education whose track record of charitable giving indicates a clear preference for home schooling and religious private schooling over our public education system.

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2 minutes ago, Coeur de Lion said:

The education provided is absolutely markedly inferior in the vast majority of home schooling experiences. If nothing else, the social and experiential aspects of community education are going to be completely lacking. I have no problem with people who choose to home school their own children, but I definitely have a huge problem with a Secretary of Education whose track record of charitable giving indicates a clear preference for home schooling and religious private schooling over our public education system.

From my experience that's an ignorant short sighted view about home schooled kids. I'd love to see your proof that the education is inferior and social aspects are lacking. 

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1 hour ago, Sinn Fein said:

I am pretty sure the DOE holds the purse strings to billions of dollars in federal aids and grants that go to local communities (including charter schools and many private schools).  That was the point of Kaine's line of questioning - if you get federal money, you should play by the same rules as everyone else.

 

Ok, I didn't know they had that level of authority.  As far as I understood it they managed the Pell grants and set some guidelines/regulations on College Loans as their primary function. This still seems to be the primary function, but they got some expanded roles in the recent times.  It still seems like the entire DoE budget dealing with this stuff is roughly the price of one F35 jet, so it's a drop in the bucket and there's a limit to just how much they can really screw stuff up.

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6 minutes ago, Coeur de Lion said:

The education provided is absolutely markedly inferior in the vast majority of home schooling experiences.

You base this on what?  The fact that home-schoolers score significantly better on standardized tests?

Edited by jon_mx
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Just now, Ramblin Wreck said:

From my experience that's an ignorant short sighted view about home schooled kids. I'd love to see your proof that the education is inferior and social aspects are lacking. 

What is your experience? Mine is related to ten years spent working in and with the education system before changing career paths, as well as a wife who has been a teacher for 20 years, and a mother who has taught for 40 years. The vast majority of home schooling is done for religious reasons in my experience, and that doesn't exactly prepare anyone for higher education or any type of career.

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1 minute ago, Coeur de Lion said:

What is your experience? Mine is related to ten years spent working in and with the education system before changing career paths, as well as a wife who has been a teacher for 20 years, and a mother who has taught for 40 years. The vast majority of home schooling is done for religious reasons in my experience, and that doesn't exactly prepare anyone for higher education or any type of career.

In other words you know almost nothing about homeschooling. 

Again what's your proof the education is inferior and social aspects are lacking?

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I don't see an issue with home schooling. I do take issue with using public funds for private religious based schools.

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

You base this on what?  The fact that home-schoolers score significantly better on standardized tests?

Come on, you're smarter than that. I've seen the numbers that you are referencing, and they don't represent anything remotely close to a reasonable sample from which to draw any conclusions.

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Do religious based schools really exist?  I mean in D/FW 95% of the private schools are religious, but I mean at this point that amounts to having a chapel on campus and a chaplain might show up once a week at lunch or something.  At least here it doesn't mean they are not teaching evolution, and banning school dances.  They are mostly college prep with loads of AP and have no time at all for religious bull####.  I imagine religious schools, much like the rest of the country has gotten away from that way of life in all areas.

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1 minute ago, culdeus said:

Do religious based schools really exist?  I mean in D/FW 95% of the private schools are religious, but I mean at this point that amounts to having a chapel on campus and a chaplain might show up once a week at lunch or something.  At least here it doesn't mean they are not teaching evolution, and banning school dances.  They are mostly college prep with loads of AP and have no time at all for religious bull####.  I imagine religious schools, much like the rest of the country has gotten away from that way of life in all areas.

In Grand Rapids and Holland MI..yes they do. The Bible Belt of MI.  Colleges too.

Edited by Da Guru

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Just now, Da Guru said:

In Grand Rapids and Holland MI..yes they do. The Bible Belt of MI.

Do you have names of these schools?

In Dallas, for example St. Mark's and Episcopal School of Dallas are "religious" but have for all intents no actual religious content and if federal funding was at stake would drop those names in a heartbeat.

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2 minutes ago, Coeur de Lion said:

Come on, you're smarter than that. I've seen the numbers that you are referencing, and they don't represent anything remotely close to a reasonable sample from which to draw any conclusions.

Every study has shown this.  You on the other hand have nothing to support your claim.  Really odd to attack the best evidence which exists, when you have nothing. 

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2 hours ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

What about her competence?  Isn't that a big reason for the criticism of her?  It seems like she isn't familiar with some very basic concepts because she's never actually had a job in education or a degree in education.

I didn't know what Franken meant by that either.  Seems like getting hung up on semantics for people to act so contentious about it.  I'm not really interested in the perspective of the common core / teachers' union /standardized testing demographic.  Sometimes people are too vested in the system to see the forest thru the trees.  That they would express such hysteria at the thought of competition tells a lot.  

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6 minutes ago, Coeur de Lion said:

Come on, you're smarter than that. I've seen the numbers that you are referencing, and they don't represent anything remotely close to a reasonable sample from which to draw any conclusions.

You made the comment homeschooling is inferior yet you're only proof is you worked in public education.  Prove it's inferior if you're discrediting test scores. 

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5 minutes ago, culdeus said:

Do you have names of these schools?

In Dallas, for example St. Mark's and Episcopal School of Dallas are "religious" but have for all intents no actual religious content and if federal funding was at stake would drop those names in a heartbeat.

This is where DeVos attended high school -- https://www.hollandchristian.org/:

Quote

ABOUT US

Each day at Holland Christian we work to fulfill our mission, heartily endeavoring to “Equip minds and nurture hearts to transform the world for Jesus Christ.” This work of transforming the world for Jesus Christ is highly inclusive work, calling for a host of ready, willing, and Spirit-filled, well-prepared individuals.

ETA:  Mission and beliefs of the school.

ETA2:  Educational philosophy -- this one is pretty hardcore Jesusy

Edited by fatguyinalittlecoat

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12 minutes ago, Coeur de Lion said:

What is your experience? Mine is related to ten years spent working in and with the education system before changing career paths, as well as a wife who has been a teacher for 20 years, and a mother who has taught for 40 years. The vast majority of home schooling is done for religious reasons in my experience, and that doesn't exactly prepare anyone for higher education or any type of career.

 

More and more, rich suburban parents are homeschooling kids.  It's become more prominent where I live in the DC area, certainly.

I have absolutely no problem with home schooling.  The libertarian in me is uncomfortable with the idea, without serious research indicating that it is harmful to the country as a whole, that the government gets to decide how we educate our own kids.  If I want to educate my kids at home, I should be able to easily do that, without jumping through a million hoops. 

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Just now, Coeur de Lion said:

What is your experience? Mine is related to ten years spent working in and with the education system before changing career paths, as well as a wife who has been a teacher for 20 years, and a mother who has taught for 40 years. The vast majority of home schooling is done for religious reasons in my experience, and that doesn't exactly prepare anyone for higher education or any type of career.

"Religious reasons" isn't analogous to the wrong reasons.  I know many people who simply don't want their grade school kids sitting in a class where some have completely wrecked home lives and whose parents expose them to vile things which they then bring to school.  Kids talking about sex scenes in movies in the 2nd grade and dropping F-bombs.  Abused kids lashing out and physically attacking classmates and stealing stuff.  These are things that happen at my wife's school, which is a science-tech focused magnet school in a whitewashed suburban town.  It's about as sheltered an environment as any public school in the country and yet there are things going on that many parents are very uncomfortable with.

I'm not a fan of homeschooling in general, but it is not really a bad option in some cases.  A stay at home mom with a degree in education who also takes her kids to a homeschooler's co-op where they can receive deeper education in certain subjects while socializing is a far superior elementary education than even the best of public schools.  That is the exact situation my best friend is in and their kids are well-adjusted and highly educated.

Just like public schools, not all home school situations are the same.

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Frankly I don't think it matters what the Secretary of Education thinks about home schooling. Like asking the NFL Commissioner what he thinks about the designated hitter. 

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The DeVos family has done tons of great things here in Grand Rapids to invest in the community.  They are also the heart and soul of the GOP in Michigan politics.  The DeVos family was significant in delivering Trump the support in West Michigan he needed from the GOP base in order to win Michigan in the general election.  Of course, he was going to pay them back somehow with an appointment if her or her husband wanted one.  I don't think she is qualified for the position but there are ton of patronage appointees who are not qualified either.  That's just how politics has always been. 

On a side note, I thought Trump and the GOP wanted to get rid of the Department of Education.  If that is the case, why even mess around with an appointment to lead the Department and instead follow through with their promise to get rid of the Department altogether. 

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As Devos herself admitted yesterday, during her  time in this position the vast majority of America's children will not be home schooled, or attending private schools, or charter schools.  They will be attending public schools. Therefore her positions on how to improve public schools are far more important than any of this other stuff. And based on what I heard, her position is to do very little, as it's her philosophy (I gather) that it's not the role of the federal government to be involved. 

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5 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

"Religious reasons" isn't analogous to the wrong reasons.  I know many people who simply don't want their grade school kids sitting in a class where some have completely wrecked home lives and whose parents expose them to vile things which they then bring to school.  Kids talking about sex scenes in movies in the 2nd grade and dropping F-bombs.  Abused kids lashing out and physically attacking classmates and stealing stuff.  These are things that happen at my wife's school, which is a science-tech focused magnet school in a whitewashed suburban town.  It's about as sheltered an environment as any public school in the country and yet there are things going on that many parents are very uncomfortable with.

I'm not a fan of homeschooling in general, but it is not really a bad option in some cases.  A stay at home mom with a degree in education who also takes her kids to a homeschooler's co-op where they can receive deeper education in certain subjects while socializing is a far superior elementary education than even the best of public schools.  That is the exact situation my best friend is in and their kids are well-adjusted and highly educated.

Just like public schools, not all home school situations are the same.

No one would argue with that situation, least of all me. Do you think that this is the typical situation for kids home schooled in the US?

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9 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

This is where DeVos attended high school -- https://www.hollandchristian.org/:

ETA:  Mission and beliefs of the school.

ETA2:  Educational philosophy -- this one is pretty hardcore Jesusy

Ok, this is fairly hardcore.  They even go out of their way to avoid offering AP classes in what would be the controversial AP coursework like Biology and English.  If a school like this exists in Texas I'm not aware of it.  

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2 minutes ago, skillz said:

The DeVos family has done tons of great things here in Grand Rapids to invest in the community.  They are also the heart and soul of the GOP in Michigan politics.  The DeVos family was significant in delivering Trump the support in West Michigan he needed from the GOP base in order to win Michigan in the general election.  Of course, he was going to pay them back somehow with an appointment if her or her husband wanted one.  I don't think she is qualified for the position but there are ton of patronage appointees who are not qualified either.  That's just how politics has always been. 

On a side note, I thought Trump and the GOP wanted to get rid of the Department of Education.  If that is the case, why even mess around with an appointment to lead the Department and instead follow through with their promise to get rid of the Department altogether. 

It's not the patronage that concerns me, it's the fact that what she's had her hand hasn't worked in Michigan

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5 minutes ago, Coeur de Lion said:

No one would argue with that situation, least of all me. Do you think that this is the typical situation for kids home schooled in the US?

You keep making generalizations without any factual evidence. Back up and state some proof for inferior education. Then move onto percentage of moms with education degrees and other stuff. 

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